Tanks, please do not kite the last boss in Vet Blackheart Haven to the side!

Meld777

My gf and I like to pug, we're both DDs, and we like random vets. But in this one dungeon, it happens every freakin' time.

We tell the Tank, "Please, tank the boss where he spawns, don't kite him to the side. Please trust us!" and, 9 out of 10 times, Tanks don't listen. And not that they don't see the chat. They answer something along the lines of, "It's free"/"But no adds"/"No, you don't understand, look!" and then do it their way.

The mechanic where he turns a random player into a skeleton is time-based and the timer starts when the boss gets aggro'd. There is a 50% chance that this someone will be a DD, thus, cutting DPS in half from that point. Because of that, we prefer to kill the boss before he turns someone into a skeleton! But if you, Tank, start kiting, we won't be able to generate enough DPS to do it because you will kite him out of our AoEs and we will have to recast them, etc. while the timer will already be running.

I understand there are bad DDs out there. But when your group has over 120k single target DPS on bosses, please consider another, more pleasant approach, especially when asked for it.

Loc2262

I agree with your sentiment! In a good group, you can safely ignore the adds. Or the tank pulls them in to die in AoE.

But, 120+k group DPS in a random PUG? 50+k per DD in an unorganized non-raid group? That I'd like to see.

AzraelKrieg

120k+ DPS in a PUG? Yeah right.

MLGProPlayer

I don't even know what the optimal strategy is for this fight because he melts so quickly.

Loc2262

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I don't even know what the optimal strategy is for this fight because he melts so quickly.

Having him melt is the optimal strategy.

Meld777

Loc2262 wrote: »

I agree with your sentiment! In a good group, you can safely ignore the adds. Or the tank pulls them in to die in AoE.

But, 120+k group DPS in a random PUG? 50+k per DD in an unorganized non-raid group? That I'd like to see.

I agree with you. The interesting thing is that this dungeon is the only one where tanks don't listen. When we tell tanks in vWGT to just take the pinion, stand in the middle and not move, they listen. Or when we tell them on Lord Warden to stand in the middle, so we can just burst through all phases.

vBH seems to be the only dungeon where tanks get super afraid of adds on the last boss.

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

120k+ DPS in a PUG? Yeah right.

We're 2 DDs in this case. Tank and Healer are random. Single target of 150k is possible because the fights are very short. When you start your rotation with a destro ulti, your single target DPS will spike up to over 70k in the beginning and then slowly drop. By the time it reaches ~62k, the Flesh Abomination is dead

Osteos

Tank runs the show. If they want to kill him on the side then you kill him on the side.

Meld777

Osteos wrote: »

Tank runs the show. If they want to kill him on the side then you kill him on the side.

If the Tank didn't run the show, there would be no need for this thread. But then again, if you were the Tank, you probably wouldn't be happy if DDs told you, "DDs run the damage! If they wanna deal 2k DPS, you accept it!"

kylewwefan

Take the path of least resistance. Move him to the back corner and minimize the ad damage. Safely and efficiently complete the dungeon. Everyone profits!

If you fight him where he stands enough times....and see groups wipe over a relatively “easy” vet dungeon.....no. Eliminate the possibility and take him to the back corner. It’s a no brainer.

Loc2262

Meld777 wrote: »

We're 2 DDs in this case. Tank and Healer are random. Single target of 150k is possible because the fights are very short. When you start your rotation with a destro ulti, your single target DPS will spike up to over 70k in the beginning and then slowly drop. By the time it reaches ~62k, the Flesh Abomination is dead

Yeah of course, in short fights you can reach nice DPS bursts. You didn't mention "Flesh Abomination" before, so I figured you were talking about your sustained cumulative DPS. Since you never know what kind of buffs you get from a random tank and healer, I highly doubt you can do 150k together on e.g. Drodda or Maw of the Infernal.

Meld777

Loc2262 wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

We're 2 DDs in this case. Tank and Healer are random. Single target of 150k is possible because the fights are very short. When you start your rotation with a destro ulti, your single target DPS will spike up to over 70k in the beginning and then slowly drop. By the time it reaches ~62k, the Flesh Abomination is dead

Yeah of course, in short fights you can reach nice DPS bursts. You didn't mention "Flesh Abomination" before, so I figured you were talking about your sustained cumulative DPS. Since you never know what kind of buffs you get from a random tank and healer, I highly doubt you can do 150k together on e.g. Drodda or Maw of the Infernal.

Nah, I was only talking about the bosses in vBH. I usually bring my own drain and off balance (Asylum Staff). Yep, on longer boss fights, like the ones you mentioned, the DPS plunges. That's where you really start to feel the difference of Alkosh, SPC, Worm, Crusher, Horn, etc. Not in vBH though

Loc2262

Meld777 wrote: »

Nah, I was only talking about the bosses in vBH. I usually bring my own drain and off balance (Asylum Staff). Yep, on longer boss fights, like the ones you mentioned, the DPS plunges. That's where you really start to feel the difference of Alkosh, SPC, Worm, Crusher, Horn, etc. Not in vBH though

Agreed. Well, when I tank BH, the boss stays right where he appears. And adds get pulled in with chains. If the boss lives long enough for 3 or more adds to accumulate.

Tan9oSuccka

It really depends on the group. If the group sucks, I drag him back.

If not, burn baby burn right where he comes out.

SirCritical

Easiest to pull him to the side. You can still shine your DPS there, since he'll be stationary from the very first second of the very first AoE (etc.) landed on him.

Peekachu99

I would really like to run with more of these 110k DPS in my ransoms.

#letsberealandnotoffersillyadvice

Mgghool

In random vetBH as a tank I always kite the boss, because most random DDs are quiete inept and kiting allows to obliterate boss even with not-so-optimal DPS.

supaskrub

This boss is as squishy as it gets, just kill him wherever he is, a dps being turned skele is irrelevant whether the boss is kited or left at spawn, it;s not a hard or challenging fight unless the group is very poor dps wise and it has to be poor to not pass this.

jakeedmundson

Try tanking that dungeon as a PUG and come back to tell us how it went...99 times out of a 100, the dps in your PUG has less than 20k dps combined. I've pug'd enough dailies as a tank to be able to say that is 100% fact.

EVERY trick you can do as a tank to make the dungeon go faster, needs to be done. period. You can't rely on a pug healer or pug dps.

And like everyone else here that has posted, i too will call you out on your 120k dps. at MOST in a dungeon you could hit 80k together if you're both at the absolute maximum, top-tier dps AND your tank/healer has support sets and skills to give you a dps boost.

There's even a post out there of a guy cheesing a 3 mil dummy on his stam blade... and HE even only hit 52k. Lets say you both did that (which you likely won't) thats 100k dps.

Apache_Kid

As someone who pugged this dungeon a **** ton of times on vet as a tank farming for a bone pirate necklace I can promise you that the majority of pugs who queue for that dungeon can't handle it without the tank bringing the boss to the side.

Also legitimately crying at your 120k DPS in a bug. Only in my wildest dreams. Usually If I pull in 2 random dds they struggle to combine for 15-20k dps.

Aisle9

- Problem is, moving and avoiding adds is the safest strat if the dps is low.
- When you pugroulette you always assume the dps is going to be low.
- The tank will adopt the strategy of less risk.

Then again, if by the last boss you didn't notice the dps is not low... well

On the other hand, there's a large number of players that simply don't have experience with high dps, therefore the safest strat, for them, is the only strat, the right one.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is...

VaranisArano

If I had that sort of successful DPS in a dungeon group and they were confident they could burn the boss down, I'd give it a try. If we wipe, we'll do it the safe way.

Its sort of like the Planar Inhibitor. I'll give the group one try to show they understand the pinion mechanics. If we burned the boss down before blue phase, great! (We never do because I am not so lucky with my PUG DDs.) If one of them grabs the pinion on blue phase, great! If none of them do, my tank inevitably dies, they rez me and we win, okay, that's fine. If they don't grab the pinion, I inevitably die, and they wipe...you can bet they listen when I explain about the pinion mechanics and the second try goes much bettter.

As a tank, I'm willing to give it a try, especially if the DPS has been high. But if it turns out that it doesn't work, we'll go back to the slow but certain method.

Unfadingsilence

Meld777 wrote: »

My gf and I like to pug, we're both DDs, and we like random vets. But in this one dungeon, it happens every freakin' time.

We tell the Tank, "Please, tank the boss where he spawns, don't kite him to the side. Please trust us!" and, 9 out of 10 times, Tanks don't listen. And not that they don't see the chat. They answer something along the lines of, "It's free"/"But no adds"/"No, you don't understand, look!" and then do it their way.

The mechanic where he turns a random player into a skeleton is time-based and the timer starts when the boss gets aggro'd. There is a 50% chance that this someone will be a DD, thus, cutting DPS in half from that point. Because of that, we prefer to kill the boss before he turns someone into a skeleton! But if you, Tank, start kiting, we won't be able to generate enough DPS to do it because you will kite him out of our AoEs and we will have to recast them, etc. while the timer will already be running.

I understand there are bad DDs out there. But when your group has over 120k single target DPS on bosses, please consider another, more pleasant approach, especially when asked for it.

I have seen your single target do and it is no where near 120k even with another dps..... GG

NewBlacksmurf

It’s a PUG and what I’ll say is if you’re communicating and they aren’t.....they either aren’t reading it or don’t want to see it.

I like to do things a certain way too but in a PUG, if folks aren’t already communicating, manage your expectations and be willing to change even if it’s not going to work

Gorath

Some tanks probably still have nightmares from 1.5 when skeletons got out of control
It happened to me that DD's asked me not to go to the side and I didn't. It was once. Most of the time when I pug, DD's don't talk, they just light attack and and die to adds.

@jakeedmundson learn to read
@Unfadingsilence learn even more to read

FrancisCrawford

What are we talking about here with the "kiting"?

• True keep-moving kiting?
• Pulling him to the edge of the beach?
• Pulling him as far up the path as he'll go without resetting?

jaws343

kylewwefan wrote: »

Take the path of least resistance. Move him to the back corner and minimize the ad damage. Safely and efficiently complete the dungeon. Everyone profits!

If you fight him where he stands enough times....and see groups wipe over a relatively “easy” vet dungeon.....no. Eliminate the possibility and take him to the back corner. It’s a no brainer.

Exactly this. I have pugged that dungeon enough times to know that any of the fights leading up to the final one are very far from a clear indication as to how to fight will go. Dragging to the side is the best/safest route to go here. If you wait to dump your ults when the tank stops moving you wouldn't have any issues here.

Also, vet Blackheart and vet Selenes are two dungeons where I will always drag the final boss to the side. Too many wipes with randoms.

Cherryblossom

Meld777 wrote: »

My gf and I like to pug, we're both DDs, and we like random vets. But in this one dungeon, it happens every freakin' time.

We tell the Tank, "Please, tank the boss where he spawns, don't kite him to the side. Please trust us!" and, 9 out of 10 times, Tanks don't listen. And not that they don't see the chat. They answer something along the lines of, "It's free"/"But no adds"/"No, you don't understand, look!" and then do it their way.

The mechanic where he turns a random player into a skeleton is time-based and the timer starts when the boss gets aggro'd. There is a 50% chance that this someone will be a DD, thus, cutting DPS in half from that point. Because of that, we prefer to kill the boss before he turns someone into a skeleton! But if you, Tank, start kiting, we won't be able to generate enough DPS to do it because you will kite him out of our AoEs and we will have to recast them, etc. while the timer will already be running.

I understand there are bad DDs out there. But when your group has over 120k single target DPS on bosses, please consider another, more pleasant approach, especially when asked for it.

@Meld777
This is a wonderful sentiment and if your damage is as good as you propose, then there is a possibility I wouldn't move the boss. But, as any Pug'ing tank will tell you, after you have had a few dps or healer die because of the adds, you move the fecking boss without even thinking about it.

jaws343

Meld777 wrote: »

My gf and I like to pug, we're both DDs, and we like random vets. But in this one dungeon, it happens every freakin' time.

We tell the Tank, "Please, tank the boss where he spawns, don't kite him to the side. Please trust us!" and, 9 out of 10 times, Tanks don't listen. And not that they don't see the chat. They answer something along the lines of, "It's free"/"But no adds"/"No, you don't understand, look!" and then do it their way.

The mechanic where he turns a random player into a skeleton is time-based and the timer starts when the boss gets aggro'd. There is a 50% chance that this someone will be a DD, thus, cutting DPS in half from that point. Because of that, we prefer to kill the boss before he turns someone into a skeleton! But if you, Tank, start kiting, we won't be able to generate enough DPS to do it because you will kite him out of our AoEs and we will have to recast them, etc. while the timer will already be running.

Also, can we please call this what it is? It isn't kiting. It is positioning. If the tank is running around with the boss the entire fight, that is kiting. If they tank is dragging the boss to a specific spot, that is positioning. Very important distinction to be made.

And for this fight, if the DDs and healer just wait over in the trees to the side, you don't have to chase the boss or waste AOE's while the boss is being pulled to you.

jakeedmundson

Gorath wrote: »

Some tanks probably still have nightmares from 1.5 when skeletons got out of control
It happened to me that DD's asked me not to go to the side and I didn't. It was once. Most of the time when I pug, DD's don't talk, they just light attack and and die to adds.

@jakeedmundson learn to read
@Unfadingsilence learn even more to read

.... care to elaborate?

LegendaryArcher

Aisle9 wrote: »

On the other hand, there's a large number of players that simply don't have experience with high dps, therefore the safest strat, for them, is the only strat, the right one.

This is the reason. Most tanks in group finder have never seen high dps, and they dont know what to do differently about it. Not their fault, we all learn

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

My gf and I like to pug, we're both DDs, and we like random vets. But in this one dungeon, it happens every freakin' time.

We tell the Tank, "Please, tank the boss where he spawns, don't kite him to the side. Please trust us!" and, 9 out of 10 times, Tanks don't listen. And not that they don't see the chat. They answer something along the lines of, "It's free"/"But no adds"/"No, you don't understand, look!" and then do it their way.

The mechanic where he turns a random player into a skeleton is time-based and the timer starts when the boss gets aggro'd. There is a 50% chance that this someone will be a DD, thus, cutting DPS in half from that point. Because of that, we prefer to kill the boss before he turns someone into a skeleton! But if you, Tank, start kiting, we won't be able to generate enough DPS to do it because you will kite him out of our AoEs and we will have to recast them, etc. while the timer will already be running.

I understand there are bad DDs out there. But when your group has over 120k single target DPS on bosses, please consider another, more pleasant approach, especially when asked for it.

I have seen your single target do and it is no where near 120k even with another dps..... GG

And I have seen you buy vmol skin for 4M a year ago. On a side note, meldan is on pc, you are on xbox

Gorath

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Gorath wrote: »

Some tanks probably still have nightmares from 1.5 when skeletons got out of control
It happened to me that DD's asked me not to go to the side and I didn't. It was once. Most of the time when I pug, DD's don't talk, they just light attack and and die to adds.

@jakeedmundson learn to read
@Unfadingsilence learn even more to read

.... care to elaborate?

@jakeedmundson Sure.

Meld777 wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

120k+ DPS in a PUG? Yeah right.

We're 2 DDs in this case. Tank and Healer are random. Single target of 150k is possible because the fights are very short. When you start your rotation with a destro ulti, your single target DPS will spike up to over 70k in the beginning and then slowly drop. By the time it reaches ~62k, the Flesh Abomination is dead

Meld777 wrote: »

Loc2262 wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

We're 2 DDs in this case. Tank and Healer are random. Single target of 150k is possible because the fights are very short. When you start your rotation with a destro ulti, your single target DPS will spike up to over 70k in the beginning and then slowly drop. By the time it reaches ~62k, the Flesh Abomination is dead

Yeah of course, in short fights you can reach nice DPS bursts. You didn't mention "Flesh Abomination" before, so I figured you were talking about your sustained cumulative DPS. Since you never know what kind of buffs you get from a random tank and healer, I highly doubt you can do 150k together on e.g. Drodda or Maw of the Infernal.

Nah, I was only talking about the bosses in vBH. I usually bring my own drain and off balance (Asylum Staff). Yep, on longer boss fights, like the ones you mentioned, the DPS plunges. That's where you really start to feel the difference of Alkosh, SPC, Worm, Crusher, Horn, etc. Not in vBH though

Sorry if I offended you, did not mean to. I just get triggered by people who instantly start measuring e-peen the first moment they read "DPS"