Horizontal progression

MLGProPlayer

Every so often, we get a thread asking for vertical progression in this game (which isn't possible due to scaling in One Tamriel).

However, that doesn't mean we can't have progression. ZOS releases a bunch of new sets every patch. These sets end up being useless most of the time (they are usually hybrid sets that no one will use). Why don't we get good sets with new patches? The Caluurion's legacy set on the PTS right now, for example, is an extremely strong PvE magicka set (it would no doubt become BiS if launched in this state). But because it's a proc set, it will be nerfed into uselessness before it even launches because it's OP in PvP. And so, everyone will just go back to running Julianos/Necro/IA/MD/Willpower as they have been for the past 2+ years when the new patch launches.

This is the problem with ZOS' horizontal progression system: they don't release useleful new sets. And when they do, they just nerf them before they even get released. The HotR patch was set to shake up the meta by bringing back crit sets, but they ended up nerfing crit before it launched, so we just went back to using the same sets we've always used (again). Horizontal progression requires bringing in more powerful/useful sets every now and then or bringing back older sets into viability. ZOS fails to do that almost every time.

At least healers will be getting a great new set (Scalecaller Peak), assuming it doesn't get the nerf bat too.

The_Lex

Well said

Sixty5

Julianos and such tend to be problematic sets balance wise, as they are flat stats.

It's pretty easy for a set in the same vein to be compared, and then whichever gives more stats is used over the alternatives.

It's why recent sets have been mostly proc sets, because picking between them requires weighing up playstyle and synergy, rather than is X bigger than Y

Adernath

The problem with a vertical progression is that a couple of very useful new sets is introduced, but at the same time all the previous ones are getting obsolete. So you would get some sort of replacement. The old world becomes obsolete, only the new content is worth to play.

In comparison to that, the current progression system is a true extension of the game world. The only drawback is that the new sets may not necessarily be BiS. I prefer the latter one, but its a matter of personal taste.

Nemesis7884

horizontal progression is not only sets but also skills, weapons, synergies etc.... but yeah i think it would also be nice if they gave one guy the project to rework some of the old sets to make em more useful again

MLGProPlayer

Adernath wrote: »

The problem with a vertical progression is that a couple of very useful new sets is introduced, but at the same time all the previous ones are getting obsolete. So you would get some sort of replacement. The old world becomes obsolete, only the new content is worth to play.

In comparison to that, the current progression system is a true extension of the game world. The only drawback is that the new sets may not necessarily be BiS. I prefer the latter one, but its a matter of personal taste.

That's what I said in the OP...

I like horizontal progression. We just don't get much of it in ESO because 99% of new sets released are junk (or turned into junk when they look promising).

MLGProPlayer

Adernath wrote: »

The problem with a vertical progression is that a couple of very useful new sets is introduced, but at the same time all the previous ones are getting obsolete. So you would get some sort of replacement. The old world becomes obsolete, only the new content is worth to play.

In comparison to that, the current progression system is a true extension of the game world. The only drawback is that the new sets may not necessarily be BiS. I prefer the latter one, but its a matter of personal taste.

I liked sets like Burning Spellweave during their brief time in the meta. They were "proc" sets that procced extra damage instead of mini nukes.

Balancing PvP and PvE separately would also open up the door to a plethora of new possible sets in PvE.

joaaocaampos

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

These sets end up being useless most of the time.

What's the problem? The ESO 'Set System' is great. ZOS can adjust to make everything more balanced, based of course on how you get the set.

If ZOS uses the "Item Level" system, we will see endless useless sets. Each DLC or Chapter will make ALL previous sets weak.

tinythinker

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Every so often, we get a thread asking for vertical progression in this game (which isn't possible due to scaling in One Tamriel).

Yeah. Other than new sets there are other possibilities for expanding and enhancing progression and people post about their ideas for finding new ways to let characters develop/diversify all the time. Haven't really seen any feedback from the devs on the different things people have suggested over the years in this regard, big or small, complex or simple, and I think they are kind of focusing more on new content in the same mold we have now and some quality of life improvements here and there.

As for sets, new sets won't be effective if issues with CP, stacking stats without caps or trade-offs, etc. aren't addressed since most good sets will be unbalanced and then, as you say, be "meh" after getting walked back.

MercTheMage

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Every so often, we get a thread asking for vertical progression in this game (which isn't possible due to scaling in One Tamriel).

However, that doesn't mean we can't have progression. ZOS releases a bunch of new sets every patch. These sets end up being useless most of the time (they are usually hybrid sets that no one will use). Why don't we get good sets with new patches? The Caluurion's legacy set on the PTS right now, for example, is an extremely strong PvE magicka set (it would no doubt become BiS if launched in this state). But because it's a proc set, it will be nerfed into uselessness before it even launches because it's OP in PvP. And so, everyone will just go back to running Julianos/Necro/IA/MD/Willpower as they have been for the past 2+ years when the new patch launches.

This is the problem with ZOS' horizontal progression system: they don't release useleful new sets. And when they do, they just nerf them before they even get released. The HotR patch was set to shake up the meta by bringing back crit sets, but they ended up nerfing crit before it launched, so we just went back to using the same sets we've always used (again). Horizontal progression requires bringing in more powerful/useful sets every now and then or bringing back older sets into viability. ZOS fails to do that almost every time.

At least healers will be getting a great new set (Scalecaller Peak), assuming it doesn't get the nerf bat too.

Everyone needs to see this.

MLGProPlayer

joaaocaampos wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

These sets end up being useless most of the time.

What's the problem? The ESO 'Set System' is great. ZOS can adjust to make everything more balanced, based of course on how you get the set.

If ZOS uses the "Item Level" system, we will see endless useless sets. Each DLC or Chapter will make ALL previous sets weak.

The problem is that it results in no build diversity, and no player progression from patch to patch. People always fall back on the same sets they've been using for the past 2 years because the new sets are worse.

In theory, ZOS should be re-balancing the system periodically, or releasing new sets to shake up the meta. But they haven't been doing that.

Because there are so many sets, I don't mind older sets getting buffs to be relevant as well. But they've failed to do that too. The HotR patch was set to make crit sets relevant again, but then they reneged on the PTS changes, and everyone went back to their old builds.

Taleof2Cities

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

That's what I said in the OP...

Except the OP contains a lot of assumptions on what's going to happen with Caluurion's Legacy ... even though we're not even out of the first week of PTS.

So, extrapolating what could happen with one new set over to horizontal progression seems a stretch, IMO.

joaaocaampos

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The problem is that it results in no build diversity, and no player progression from patch to patch. People always fall back on the same sets they've been using for the past 2 years because the new sets are worse.

In theory, ZOS should be re-balancing the system periodically, or releasing new sets to shake up the meta. But they haven't been doing that.

Because there are so many sets, I don't mind older sets getting buffs to be relevant as well. But they've failed to do that too. The HotR patch was set to make crit sets relevant again, but then they reneged on the PTS changes, and everyone went back to their old builds.

This is nothing more than a veiled way of Item Level. "...to shake up the meta..."? Do you want everyone to stop using the previous sets, to use the new sets?

Player progression? Champion Points! A lot of people say that ESO content is too easy, and you still want us to become even stronger, through Sets?

I understand you, but also understand that ZOS doesn't give us "better Sets". It gives "new build options", no matter if it's better or worse. Zenimax doesn't want anything to get out of control. I still remember the Mother's Sorrow Set episode. Thankfully Zenimax nerfed!

MLGProPlayer

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

That's what I said in the OP...

Except the OP contains a lot of assumptions on what's going to happen with Caluurion's Legacy ... even though we're not even out of the first week of PTS.

So, extrapolating what could happen with one new set over to horizontal progression seems a stretch, IMO.

This isn't the first time it's happened. Name one set that was released since One Tamriel that has entered the meta (Master Architect is the only one, but that's because all trial sets follow the same formula).

And there is a good chance Caluurion gets overnerfed based on precedent. Proc sets just can't be balanced for PvP.