Jumping walls with chain or bolt, exploit or not? Fixing PVP nor not?

VaranisArano

Ruckly wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.

Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.

Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.

And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.

ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.

Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.

Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.

It's not ignorance if you didn't know the rule existed to begin with. Ignorance is not making wall npcs immune to being chained. That is ignorance. If I chain an npc on a wall yesterday and I had no clue this phantom rule existed I am not ignoring anything. There is nothing to ignore. This rule isn't "clearly voiced" while in Cyrodiil. There is no a priori knowledge of this rule. And knowledge isn't inscribed on a persons mind from birth so I couldn't have been born with knowledge of this rule.

The rules are slapped in your face, you HAVE to agree to them before you play the game, this is ignorance.

If that is true then living a life in good faith rather that knowing every law is ignorance. This is the point of good faith. If you are a pigeon-seller you can live a life paranoid of your own shadow. But it is the year 2018 -->AD<--. "You" are living in a different era. And I am pretty sure it doesn't state explicitly in the TOS that you can't chain NPCS on walls but rather says you can't exploit which is interpretive. Again 2018 -->AD<--.

2018 -->AD<--

Except that as we keep telling you, ZOS treats this like an exploit.I bolded a portion for emphasis.

Found a quote: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278031/cyrodiil-cheating-exploiting-you/p1

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.

We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.

There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.

To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.

Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.

The only reason that holds water is because every TOS has a clause where an account can be terminated without cause. It only reinforces what I said prior to that post.

Good grief. You agreed to not exploit when you agree to the TOS which everyone has to in order to play the game. The TOS also say that ZOS gets to determine what is or is not an exploit and what discipline is attached to that exploit. ZOS says that using gap-closers to bypass keep walls is a bannable exploit. Not knowing what's in the TOS won't save you - you agreed to it. Not knowing something is an exploit might save you - if you can convince ZOS of your sincerity depending on the severity/repetition of the offense.

What exactly is hard to understand about this?

VaranisArano

Magdalina wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.

Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.

Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.

And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.

ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.

Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.

Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.

It's not ignorance if you didn't know the rule existed to begin with. Ignorance is not making wall npcs immune to being chained. That is ignorance. If I chain an npc on a wall yesterday and I had no clue this phantom rule existed I am not ignoring anything. There is nothing to ignore. This rule isn't "clearly voiced" while in Cyrodiil. There is no a priori knowledge of this rule. And knowledge isn't inscribed on a persons mind from birth so I couldn't have been born with knowledge of this rule.

Actually as far as I know(or did they break it again some time recently or something?) you can NOT chain onto keep npcs the normal way. Zenimax has explicitly changed chains to not work against elevated targets(which is why it now sometimes bugs out with "target too high or too low" against valid targets on uneven ground). It is still possible to do but as far as I understand it's actually pretty hard to do so by accident. Majority of gap closers got chain-style treatment - Swarm for example has keep specific limitations, it just won't work to pull someone up the keep wall(although it does work to pull someone up a cliff). For some odd reason last I checked Silver Bolts(or whatever that morph is called) one still functioned freely though(and that's definitely something they should fix).

It's interesting that now it seems to be commonly regarded as an exploit, I remember the first time I saw it and spoke up in chat everyone told me it's intended mechanics and ZOS had apparently even confirmed it in one of the ESO lives or something. I am kind of glad everyone's mind on the matter seems changed now, it just doesn't feel right.

Here's a specific post from ZOS addressing the issue. I don't know if there was also an ESO Live discussion on it. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278031/cyrodiil-cheating-exploiting-you/p1

Slick_007

Ruckly wrote: »

everyone put this troll on ignore. they are clearly doing this hoping to get a rise out of people.
If you think its fine ruckly, go do this in front of people in cyrodil and see what happens.

Ruckly

Slick_007 wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

everyone put this troll on ignore. they are clearly doing this hoping to get a rise out of people.
If you think its fine ruckly, go do this in front of people in cyrodil and see what happens.

My posts are about the OP and not about particular people in the thread. I don't know you if you want to ignore me go ahead but trying some cult of personality crap to quelch me or assuming I'm a psychopath or sociopath and am interested in the people and this "rise" rather than the content is simply prejudice. I reason things out and am interested in the answer. I am not interested in a cult of personality or this "rise out of people" which has nothing to do with anything.

TLDR

Person thinks I am disinterested in the answer and interested in getting a high out of people rather than the opposite.

OutLaw_Nynx

Sounds like a classy guy...

Avran_Sylt

Kinda wish they just gave all keeps square AoEs that cover the entire structure. Damaging players that are not the owning faction. Breaks when an outer wall/door breaks and shrinks to the interior structure if applicable.

Could write it off as the keep mages actually doing something.

VaranisArano

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Kinda wish they just gave all keeps square AoEs that cover the entire structure. Damaging players that are not the owning faction. Breaks when an outer wall/door breaks and shrinks to the interior structure if applicable.

Could write it off as the keep mages actually doing something.

Not really. There are ways to legitimately be inside enemy-owned keeps. The most obvious is that you can hide when the enemy takes the keep and if they aren't diligent in searching for hidden players, you can stay in the keep and even siege the walls from the inside. Totally legitimate and not an exploit, easily countered by the defenders searching the keep.

Now I've had the server disconnect me during a fight and then log me back into the now enemy-owned keep that I DC'ed while inside it, still alive. When that happens, I try not to defend myself so I'm not taking advantage of a glitch in the system and I report it to ZOS.

flubber77

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom maybe one of you can bring this to the table, reporting dont help since he is reported for 2 years and still do the same.

Smmokkee

VaranisArano wrote: »

Smmokkee wrote: »

I wish gap closing into keeps was a thing. So much fun and makes battles more diverse than pvdoor.

I find it really funny that you posted that right under my post quoting where ZOS explains that gap closing into keeps is a exploit and contrary to the intended game design.

Yeah well it was so broken back in the day it didnt matter because everyone was doing it. You could do it without even trying to do it. The gameplay was fun and dynamic and broke the monotony of the usual cycle.

Nowadays if you are doing it its obvious you are exploiting something.

WeyounTM

They clearly need to adress this exploit, and yes it is one. No amount of stupid argueing will change that. Since these kind of players use any chance of exploiting and bug using, they need to get a perma-ban for all their nice efforts of destroying the actual gameplay in Cyro.

And while you are at it @ZOS_GinaBruno , please adress the exploit of "being repaired" into the keep as well. It has been mentioned on a nice video from a known streamer and he only mentioned it would be a bug, which it isnt. In the video it is also said that the streamer has got the permission to share it in the first place. Is this really true, does ZOS give permission for sharing and promoting bugusing? Please say it isnt so....

Ruckly

Considering the scope of the battles in Cyrodiil in distance, time, numbers, and so forth: if some persons boost over a wall or somehow chain onto a wall via NPC(which someone mentioned can't be done) then that group is griefing the map and the players therein by taking a keep with less numbers and in less time - and by so doing the distance between keeps becomes a non-factor since it's an almost guaranteed almost undefendable keep snipe. Having played Cyrodiil enough this(chaining over walls is bad) becomes a priori knowledge but if unfamiliar might seem harmless. With the distance between keeps as large as it is and the commitment entailed in a siege being what it is it should be impossible to chain up onto a keep wall. Anything on the keep wall should be immune to being chained.

VaranisArano

WeyounTM wrote: »

They clearly need to adress this exploit, and yes it is one. No amount of stupid argueing will change that. Since these kind of players use any chance of exploiting and bug using, they need to get a perma-ban for all their nice efforts of destroying the actual gameplay in Cyro.

And while you are at it @ZOS_GinaBruno , please adress the exploit of "being repaired" into the keep as well. It has been mentioned on a nice video from a known streamer and he only mentioned it would be a bug, which it isnt. In the video it is also said that the streamer has got the permission to share it in the first place. Is this really true, does ZOS give permission for sharing and promoting bugusing? Please say it isnt so....

Hiding inside the keep while the enemy repairs the walls is not an exploit or a bug. There's no in-game function that expels the faction that doesn't own the keep. If you can find a place to hide and avoid being caught by players or NPCs, you can absolutely hide out inside a keep and try to retake it back from the inside. That's why players need to be vigilant about checking the hiding spots in keeps.

Ragnarock41

We reported similar things countless times, people especially do it on shor because they think they can get away with it, and they do too sadly, solid proof ZOS does not care.

Universe

Yes, it is an exploit of a bug.
I reported this bug multiple times over the years and yet it wasn't fixed.
It is not intended.
I hope they will fix it one day.

WeyounTM

VaranisArano wrote: »

Hiding inside the keep while the enemy repairs the walls is not an exploit or a bug. There's no in-game function that expels the faction that doesn't own the keep. If you can find a place to hide and avoid being caught by players or NPCs, you can absolutely hide out inside a keep and try to retake it back from the inside. That's why players need to be vigilant about checking the hiding spots in keeps.

This isn't at all what I was refering to. There is a "bug" that lets you target and "destroy" a part of a keep which then wont let you inside at all. It is described in detail in the mentioned video and although it is claimed to be not abusable or being an exploit it really doesnt need much brainpower to actually abuse it.
Opening up a keep properly, then manage to hide....sure that is valid and it won't need a third party to actually get you inside ;-)

VaranisArano

WeyounTM wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Hiding inside the keep while the enemy repairs the walls is not an exploit or a bug. There's no in-game function that expels the faction that doesn't own the keep. If you can find a place to hide and avoid being caught by players or NPCs, you can absolutely hide out inside a keep and try to retake it back from the inside. That's why players need to be vigilant about checking the hiding spots in keeps.

This isn't at all what I was refering to. There is a "bug" that lets you target and "destroy" a part of a keep which then wont let you inside at all. It is described in detail in the mentioned video and although it is claimed to be not abusable or being an exploit it really doesnt need much brainpower to actually abuse it.
Opening up a keep properly, then manage to hide....sure that is valid and it won't need a third party to actually get you inside ;-)

Ah, like the postern house in the outer walls or the projections off the side towers? Yeah, that's a little confusing.

Surak73

Ruckly wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.

Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.

Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.

And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.

ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.

Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.

Don't worry. If you are caught doing this once, you will not be banned immediately, but just warned. This is exactly the loudspeaker you're talking about. Then, if you don't listen to this loudspeaker and you exploit again, ban will come.

Oakmontowls_ESO

Really they should just make inner walls immune to damage if the outer walls aren't breached. This would make scaling the walls a viable strategy to put pressure on the defenders.

VaranisArano

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Really they should just make inner walls immune to damage if the outer walls aren't breached. This would make scaling the walls a viable strategy to put pressure on the defenders.

Except that there are spots where you can fire trebs over the walls to start hitting the inner postern. Heck, if you hide in the keep before it is flipped and repaired, you can siege from the inside. Making the inner walls immune is just making a larger change instead of fixing the problem in the first place - making wall NPCs immune to gap-closers.

WeyounTM

Yes, sieging the inner wall from the outside is a valid strategy too and needs to remain possible.

I hope we can get some acknowledgment for the other 2 exploits by @ZOS_GinaBruno . They really need to adress both issues with the coming major update. Playing on the EU servers becomes more and more tiresome if you have to watch out for these exploiters time and time again.
Maybe @Gilliamtherogue can also get their attention (love you Gill )

flubber77

i guess they dont care at all about this, same person still do this each day in EU server.

Aisle9

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Maybe @ZOS_JessicaFolsom could ask the Devs to put notice of this on a loading screen for Cyrodil for new players to know they can get in trouble . Anyone that says they never saw a loading screen or the loading screen wasn't long enough to read would instantly be laughed at as we know everyone gets stuck in load screens . Best place for a PSA .

OutLaw_Nynx

You know how you get instakilled if the gates where the scrolls are close? They should have that all around keeps so if you try to get into the keep without doing it the right way it’s RIP to you.

If they wanted it easy to get into keeps they’d would put stairs on the outside of the keeps.

VaranisArano

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

You know how you get instakilled if the gates where the scrolls are close? They should have that all around keeps so if you try to get into the keep without doing it the right way it’s RIP to you.

If they wanted it easy to get into keeps they’d would put stairs on the outside of the keeps.

That instakill was ZOS' solution to their inability to make the gate guards unable to be affected by gap-closers. So it'd be effective, but it was implemented because ZOS didn't actually fix the problem.

Valykc

It’s is the fault of the game makers, but they still consider it an exploit and have banned/suspended players for it.

dotme

Magdalina wrote: »

Actually as far as I know (or did they break it again some time recently or something?) you can NOT chain onto keep npcs the normal way. Zenimax has explicitly changed chains to not work against elevated targets...

They broke something. I have a player on video exploiting it - I won't post it here, but I did send it to @ZOS_GinaBruno 2 weeks ago via forum message. I have no idea if she even saw it, but I did what I could to show the devs how it's being done.

NordSwordnBoard

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Maybe @ZOS_JessicaFolsom could ask the Devs to put notice of this on a loading screen for Cyrodil for new players to know they can get in trouble . Anyone that says they never saw a loading screen or the loading screen wasn't long enough to read would instantly be laughed at as we know everyone gets stuck in load screens . Best place for a PSA .

Yes, this. Instead of reminding us what soul gems are for or how to use the quest tracker - remind people that exploits are bad and covered under TOS. Explain how keeps must be taken by door/wall collapse only for example.

Tan9oSuccka

Ruckly wrote: »

I am using ignorance in the hermeneutical and not the apophantical sense since innocence is the eminent notion.[/quote]

iiYuki

I dont get whats happening, is someone using an ability that pulls them to an enemy which gives the unintended effect of pulling them up the fort wall. That seems to place the fault with Zo$ for putting NPCs on the wall while knowing they have a class that can use an ability that pulls them to said NPC bypassing a mechanic.
If it involves multiple sketchy circumstances to do I would agree it's probably an exploit but it seems like Zo$ is trying to blame players for using an ability as intended except when in x situation when its not intended all because they made a stupid mistake by either not making NPCs in forts immune to pulls or adding a targeting wall to stop ground players from targeting players above them with ranged abilities.

Mithalarin

PVP destroys every MMO it touches!