Update 47 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/680228
Jumping walls with chain or bolt, exploit or not? Fixing PVP nor not?
flubber77
✭✭✭✭
In Eu server pc we have a player doing this all the time, use skills like dk chains or fighterguild silverbolt so get pullet up on the walls by npc so he dont need to siege the wall.
i remember back when they did change how cap closer where working and everyone did use this, how this turned into an super cheat/exploit where zos did ban players even if they was unlucky jumping into keeps. the last year people have reported this an weekly basis without zos do *** about it even if they get video evidence so i guess this is allowed again?
eather way, make up your mind ZOS, compensate thos who got ban or do your damn job again and dont let someone do what pleases them while other cant sneze before they get banned?
Another thing, is there a plan to fix pvp at all this year? we still have alots of bugs like never ending load screen, people ending up under ground in groups, break free, double cc and so on.
Tired gamer
Edited by flubber77 on January 13, 2018 5:41PM i remember back when they did change how cap closer where working and everyone did use this, how this turned into an super cheat/exploit where zos did ban players even if they was unlucky jumping into keeps. the last year people have reported this an weekly basis without zos do *** about it even if they get video evidence so i guess this is allowed again?
eather way, make up your mind ZOS, compensate thos who got ban or do your damn job again and dont let someone do what pleases them while other cant sneze before they get banned?
Another thing, is there a plan to fix pvp at all this year? we still have alots of bugs like never ending load screen, people ending up under ground in groups, break free, double cc and so on.
Tired gamer
Still a grudge, only to see false what u want and nothing less.
3
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coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It is a exploit, report these people
ZOS has been trying to fix it and it's better now then it was before but it's still a problem.Hoping for more playable races1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Its an exploit, one that ZOS seems unable to fix. Unlike the infamous ambush-someone-going-through-a-keep-door glitch/exploit, this one can't be done accidentally. So report those people.1 -
Ruckly✭✭✭✭How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.8
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.8 -
Ruckly✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.3 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.Hoping for more playable races8 -
Ruckly✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.
Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.3 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.
Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.Hoping for more playable races11 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
When you click the "I agree" button at the bottom of the TOS that lets you play the game, you are bound to the TOS whether you read them or scrolled really fast to the bottom.
This whole "ZOS made a glitch, they have to take responsibility" was exactly the response of the people glitching the vet HM AS trial. They all got banned. ZOS doesn't buy your argument.
I also find it hard to believe that a player "playing the game in good faith" would argue that its okay to continue using something that ZOS has already determined is an exploit to bypass keep walls with gap closers after they have been informed of such.
So should ZOS fix the NPCs on the walls? Totally! in the meantime, should players not bypass the keep walls in unintended ways that ZOS has always treated as an exploit? Yeah, if they have have a modicum of decency and common sense.
Anyway, from those TOS you apparently haven't bothered to read:
https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/terms-of-service#_EN_Toc_08
"You agree not to use any Service to:
Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;"
3 -
Ruckly✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.
Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.
It's not ignorance if you didn't know the rule existed to begin with. Ignorance is not making wall npcs immune to being chained. That is ignorance. If I chain an npc on a wall yesterday and I had no clue this phantom rule existed I am not ignoring anything. There is nothing to ignore. This rule isn't "clearly voiced" while in Cyrodiil. There is no a priori knowledge of this rule. And knowledge isn't inscribed on a persons mind from birth so I couldn't have been born with knowledge of this rule.2 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.
Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.
It's not ignorance if you didn't know the rule existed to begin with. Ignorance is not making wall npcs immune to being chained. That is ignorance. If I chain an npc on a wall yesterday and I had no clue this phantom rule existed I am not ignoring anything. There is nothing to ignore. This rule isn't "clearly voiced" while in Cyrodiil. There is no a priori knowledge of this rule. And knowledge isn't inscribed on a persons mind from birth so I couldn't have been born with knowledge of this rule.
The rules are slapped in your face, you HAVE to agree to them before you play the game, this is ignorance.Hoping for more playable races5 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.
Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.
It's not ignorance if you didn't know the rule existed to begin with. Ignorance is not making wall npcs immune to being chained. That is ignorance. If I chain an npc on a wall yesterday and I had no clue this phantom rule existed I am not ignoring anything. There is nothing to ignore. This rule isn't "clearly voiced" while in Cyrodiil. There is no a priori knowledge of this rule. And knowledge isn't inscribed on a persons mind from birth so I couldn't have been born with knowledge of this rule.
Its a well-know exploit in the PVP community. If for some reason, some completely new player got reported and banned (mostly temporary bans, IIRC) for doing this repeatedly without ever having been informed that "hey, that's an exploit" I suspect ZOS would have to look at their case and decide whether the claimed ignorance is accurate (no offense, but anyone can lie) and if so, whether the player's ignorance outweighed the common sense factor of "hey, I don't think the game intends for me to bypass the whole seiging mechanic by gap-closing myself to the top of the walls. That just seems broken!"
Look, I won't report the majority of people I see ambush into keeps, because I know that the game is glitched and you can accidently ambush someone as they are entering the keep and wind up inside. But if that person then runs upstairs and starts slaughtering my teammates, I'm going to report them for taking advantage of an exploit. Same thing here, except that gap-closing up on a keep wall isn't something that happens by accident. It may be done in ignorance, but it isn't done by accident.
And now we're arguing "If I didn't know I was exploiting, should I be punished for exploiting?" That's in ZOS' hands to decide. If I see you taking advantage of an exploit, I'll report you and let ZOS sort it out.2 -
Ruckly✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.
Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.
It's not ignorance if you didn't know the rule existed to begin with. Ignorance is not making wall npcs immune to being chained. That is ignorance. If I chain an npc on a wall yesterday and I had no clue this phantom rule existed I am not ignoring anything. There is nothing to ignore. This rule isn't "clearly voiced" while in Cyrodiil. There is no a priori knowledge of this rule. And knowledge isn't inscribed on a persons mind from birth so I couldn't have been born with knowledge of this rule.
The rules are slapped in your face, you HAVE to agree to them before you play the game, this is ignorance.
If that is true then living a life in good faith rather that knowing every law is ignorance. This is the point of good faith. If you are a pigeon-seller you can live a life paranoid of your own shadow. But it is the year 2018 -->AD<--. "You" are living in a different era. And I am pretty sure it doesn't state explicitly in the TOS that you can't chain NPCS on walls but rather says you can't exploit which is interpretive. Again 2018 -->AD<--.
2018 -->AD<--2 -
Meetre✭✭✭[ig-ner-uh ns]
Spell Syllables
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See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.
It is, by definition of the word, ignorance.3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.
Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.
It's not ignorance if you didn't know the rule existed to begin with. Ignorance is not making wall npcs immune to being chained. That is ignorance. If I chain an npc on a wall yesterday and I had no clue this phantom rule existed I am not ignoring anything. There is nothing to ignore. This rule isn't "clearly voiced" while in Cyrodiil. There is no a priori knowledge of this rule. And knowledge isn't inscribed on a persons mind from birth so I couldn't have been born with knowledge of this rule.
The rules are slapped in your face, you HAVE to agree to them before you play the game, this is ignorance.
If that is true then living a life in good faith rather that knowing every law is ignorance. This is the point of good faith. If you are a pigeon-seller you can live a life paranoid of your own shadow. But it is the year 2018 -->AD<--. "You" are living in a different era. And I am pretty sure it doesn't state explicitly in the TOS that you can't chain NPCS on walls but rather says you can't exploit which is interpretive. Again 2018 -->AD<--.
2018 -->AD<--
Except that as we keep telling you, ZOS treats this like an exploit.I bolded a portion for emphasis.
Found a quote: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278031/cyrodiil-cheating-exploiting-you/p1ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.
We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.
We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.
There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.
To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.
Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.4 -
Smmokkee✭✭✭✭✭I wish gap closing into keeps was a thing. So much fun and makes battles more diverse than pvdoor.Edited by Smmokkee on January 13, 2018 7:29PM1
-
CromulentForumID✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.
Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.
It's not ignorance if you didn't know the rule existed to begin with. Ignorance is not making wall npcs immune to being chained. That is ignorance. If I chain an npc on a wall yesterday and I had no clue this phantom rule existed I am not ignoring anything. There is nothing to ignore. This rule isn't "clearly voiced" while in Cyrodiil. There is no a priori knowledge of this rule. And knowledge isn't inscribed on a persons mind from birth so I couldn't have been born with knowledge of this rule.
I'm just going to take a moment to savor the bolded part of the quote above.8 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think the cheating and exploits threads should be stickied on the general forums, this way it will pop up on most recent topic as well.
Tbh unite outpost farming this particular exploit has been pointed out by zos.
Sadly there are so many explotable bugs in this game that the devs are not aware its not even funny.
May be time to dedicate some time for but/performance fixes, and put new content on hold, even if its for 1 patch cycle. FFXIV even restarded their game after release to iron out many of their issues. Dont think the higher ups at zenimaz media would go.for it tho, too much money to made on selling pretty cash shop trinkets even in an unfinished product0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maybe @ZOS_JessicaFolsom could ask the Devs to put notice of this on a loading screen for Cyrodil for new players to know they can get in trouble . Anyone that says they never saw a loading screen or the loading screen wasn't long enough to read would instantly be laughed at as we know everyone gets stuck in load screens . Best place for a PSA .9 -
kyle.wilson✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think the cheating and exploits threads should be stickied on the general forums, this way it will pop up on most recent topic as well.
Tbh unite outpost farming this particular exploit has been pointed out by zos.
Sadly there are so many explotable bugs in this game that the devs are not aware its not even funny.
May be time to dedicate some time for but/performance fixes, and put new content on hold, even if its for 1 patch cycle. FFXIV even restarded their game after release to iron out many of their issues. Dont think the higher ups at zenimaz media would go.for it tho, too much money to made on selling pretty cash shop trinkets even in an unfinished product
They are aware of the bugs, most are reported frequently.
Either they don't have the expertise to fix them, or they don't care.
I'm leaning on the not caring part.
0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wish gap closing into keeps was a thing. So much fun and makes battles more diverse than pvdoor.
yeah it would be fun if being able to jump the walls by targeting enemy players could be allowed. The problem is no way to control the obvious exploit of just having a friend log in on a character from another faction and jump to him.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
Ruckly✭✭✭✭CromulentForumID wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.
Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.
It's not ignorance if you didn't know the rule existed to begin with. Ignorance is not making wall npcs immune to being chained. That is ignorance. If I chain an npc on a wall yesterday and I had no clue this phantom rule existed I am not ignoring anything. There is nothing to ignore. This rule isn't "clearly voiced" while in Cyrodiil. There is no a priori knowledge of this rule. And knowledge isn't inscribed on a persons mind from birth so I couldn't have been born with knowledge of this rule.
I'm just going to take a moment to savor the bolded part of the quote above.
I am using ignorance in the hermeneutical and not the apophantical sense since innocence is the eminent notion.Edited by Ruckly on January 13, 2018 9:01PM0 -
UrbanMonk✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thanks for posting this video. Me and at least 10 of my friends have reported him on PC-EU-Shor for the same exploit on 10th January.
Here is my ticket number - #180110-000518
And on 12th he even made emp using the same exploit at 5:00 am appx though we got him dethroned at 10:30. But I spoke to many EP players and those who worked hard to get on top of leaderboards were really pissed by this.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Please
take an action and you don’t need to tell us if some action has been taken as we’ll notice this in game if some action gets taken or not.
Here is another video of him doing the same thing-
Twitch channel @elpandordk
Edited by UrbanMonk on January 13, 2018 9:04PMUrban.Monk
-Monk I- Magden- ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
-Tsürügi- MagBlade- ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
-Bantam Bomber- MagPlar- AVA28
-Hot Nöödle- MagDK - AVA37
-Pablo Necrobar- StamCro- AVA24
youtube.com/c/UrbanMonkGaming
Easiest mDK for vMA and vVH- https://youtu.be/dUxQO1FO1XQ
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Balance for the Sake of Balance is no Balance at all.2 -
UrbanMonk✭✭✭✭✭
✭And to add, it’s not about which faction? Even if he was DC I won’t hesitate for a second to report him.Urban.Monk
-Monk I- Magden- ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
-Tsürügi- MagBlade- ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
-Bantam Bomber- MagPlar- AVA28
-Hot Nöödle- MagDK - AVA37
-Pablo Necrobar- StamCro- AVA24
youtube.com/c/UrbanMonkGaming
Easiest mDK for vMA and vVH- https://youtu.be/dUxQO1FO1XQ
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Balance for the Sake of Balance is no Balance at all.0 -
Ruckly✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.
Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.
It's not ignorance if you didn't know the rule existed to begin with. Ignorance is not making wall npcs immune to being chained. That is ignorance. If I chain an npc on a wall yesterday and I had no clue this phantom rule existed I am not ignoring anything. There is nothing to ignore. This rule isn't "clearly voiced" while in Cyrodiil. There is no a priori knowledge of this rule. And knowledge isn't inscribed on a persons mind from birth so I couldn't have been born with knowledge of this rule.
The rules are slapped in your face, you HAVE to agree to them before you play the game, this is ignorance.
If that is true then living a life in good faith rather that knowing every law is ignorance. This is the point of good faith. If you are a pigeon-seller you can live a life paranoid of your own shadow. But it is the year 2018 -->AD<--. "You" are living in a different era. And I am pretty sure it doesn't state explicitly in the TOS that you can't chain NPCS on walls but rather says you can't exploit which is interpretive. Again 2018 -->AD<--.
2018 -->AD<--
Except that as we keep telling you, ZOS treats this like an exploit.I bolded a portion for emphasis.
Found a quote: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278031/cyrodiil-cheating-exploiting-you/p1ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.
We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.
We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.
There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.
To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.
Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.
The only reason that holds water is because every TOS has a clause where an account can be terminated without cause. It only reinforces what I said prior to that post.1 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »How is this an exploit? It looks like everything is working as it should. Chain pulls you to target and you are at target. Maybe if someone was standing on the wall with swarm mother holding block and people were attacking him to get pulled in that might be an exploit because it requires two parties. Hitting an npc without anything obviously glitchy I don't see this as a bug. If it's not a bug how can it be an exploit since you aren't breaking the game. You are using skills the way they were intended to be used. Really it is the game makers fault for not making wall npcs immune to skills that pull you towards a target.
Its an exploit because ZOS clearly does not intend for you to bypass the keep walls without sieging the walls or the door down to the breaking point. ZOS has made this clear in the past when dealing with this, whether its Take Flight leaps, DK chains or Silver Bolt.
Just because the game allows you to do something as a glitch doesn't mean it isn't an exploit, as certain Trial groups found out in Asylum Sanctorium. Glitches or no, the TOS we all agreed to expects us to play the game as ZOS intended and ZOS does not intend for gap closers to bypass keep walls.
And who reads the entire TOS? Most people play the game in good faith. Chaining an npc on the wall who should be immune to it is the fault of the game makers. If players are boosting people over the wall that is different. If the npcs can be chained that is the fault of the game makers. Burying something in the TOS in section 27-b appended on the date of 07/12/16 with section 31-a subsection 5-12 and section 7.12.01-f subsection 5.1.14 as interpreted in appendix b section c parts 7,12,18, and 27 is convoluted and unnecessary. It is the fault of the game makers for not making wall npcs immune to pulls. The game makers are complicit unless they want to be pigeon-sellers and lean on some buried clause in a TOS no one reads.
ZOS has voiced that they count this as a exploit, end of story.
Is this voice over a loudspeaker in Cyrodiil? If not then expecting people who buy a game and play a game to know the rational of game makers when it isn't clearly voiced in the game is complicit. Not everyone and I expect mostly no one follows some forum post or chases ZOS commentary where ever it is posted like it's a must read newspaper. If it's not complicit then it is the game makers lording it over players. e.g. over 50% of the population is guilty of sedition but they aren't thrown in jail because they live in good faith and law men don't lord it over them because they aren't pigeon-sellers.
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse to not follow them.
It's not ignorance if you didn't know the rule existed to begin with. Ignorance is not making wall npcs immune to being chained. That is ignorance. If I chain an npc on a wall yesterday and I had no clue this phantom rule existed I am not ignoring anything. There is nothing to ignore. This rule isn't "clearly voiced" while in Cyrodiil. There is no a priori knowledge of this rule. And knowledge isn't inscribed on a persons mind from birth so I couldn't have been born with knowledge of this rule.
Actually as far as I know(or did they break it again some time recently or something?) you can NOT chain onto keep npcs the normal way. Zenimax has explicitly changed chains to not work against elevated targets(which is why it now sometimes bugs out with "target too high or too low" against valid targets on uneven ground). It is still possible to do but as far as I understand it's actually pretty hard to do so by accident. Majority of gap closers got chain-style treatment - Swarm for example has keep specific limitations, it just won't work to pull someone up the keep wall(although it does work to pull someone up a cliff). For some odd reason last I checked Silver Bolts(or whatever that morph is called) one still functioned freely though(and that's definitely something they should fix).
It's interesting that now it seems to be commonly regarded as an exploit, I remember the first time I saw it and spoke up in chat everyone told me it's intended mechanics and ZOS had apparently even confirmed it in one of the ESO lives or something. I am kind of glad everyone's mind on the matter seems changed now, it just doesn't feel right.0
