Will We Ever Have True Balance?

idk

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It’s pretty disturbing to see so many people being at ease with the game not being truly balanced, or even caring about the future of balancing. The whole attitude of, “Nope, who cares? Just deal with it, and carry on.” is really quite alarming.

Maybe I’m just old fashioned, and my age is really starting to show... But, it’s really sad to observe this type of mindset that people are displaying. It is if people don’t even care about the state of their game, and are just here to go along to get along. And it seems to me like the devs are more than aware of this, and thus use that as the logic to continue on doing what it is that they’ve been doing for so long. Player base was never like this, and yes. While it is true that most of those with similar views of mine have up and quit when Morrowind dropped, its just sad. Like damn... Look at how this community has fallen. Who exists nowadays that gives a damn anymore, and is outspoken to the bs that swarms about both in-game and on the forums? Nowadays you get shunned for it.

And please, don’t misunderstand. I know about imbalances regarding MMO’s and multiplayer games in general. Trust me. I get it. Ice/frost mages in WoW? Magneto/Storm/Sentinel in MvC2? Ice Climbers in SB? Yeah, I know. Balance will never truly exist theoretically. But damn it if people can’t acrively work hard to achieve it. And it’s just so crushing to see people not give a damn about it anymore. It’s sick, man. It’s really sick.

It's part of the '*** you got mine' and the whole 'ADAPT OR LEAVE' craze.

Wanting balance would require criticism of the game and holding the game accountable for the times it's outright disreguarded player feedback. And they would do that because they've indoctinated themselves into unconditional love of this game.

Personally, I dont see it happening because the designers DO NOT RESPECT OUR FEEDBACK, REGUARDLESS OF WHAT THEY SAY. WE HAVE TO FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL TO GET ANYTHING CHANGED.

This is not all that correct. Much of the "criticism" provided here in the forums is based on incorrect information to begin with.

An extreme example is the regular threads we see complaining about a skill or even a class being OP. It is either they got attacked by 10 players with 9 using that skill and upset they died or there are multiple counters to the skill being used against them but openly state the do not want to have to use a counter.

Zos has taken our advice though there is some advice many of us wish they would have taken, namely concerning the sustain changes with Morrowind, but we have adjusted and are doing ok. Yea, I would like cost reduction returned.

@idk So now, I’m curious. Would you agree or disagree that from a PvE perspective, Wardens could definitely use a myriad of buffs (specifically magicka Wardens)? Yet from a PvP perspective, Wardens need a major series of reworks and nerfs (specifically stamina Wardens)?

Because that is in my opinion a perfect example of how screwed up balance is and how much inconsistency there is. Here is a class that is extremely subpar and lacking in 1 aspect of the game, but is overperforming dramatically in another aspect. There is no middle grounds or consistency, like the other classes. It’s literally 1 extreme or the other.

I do not expect a utopia is probably the best answer. As I have stated, balance is a myth. It has never occurred in any MMO that has classes.

I have seen in this game and others that with each "balancing" performed a different class is on top. With each balancing the games performed a different class is no longer wanted in high end raids for PvE or PvP.

I am not suggesting in any way there is balance ATM or anything about Warden's strengths or weaknesses. However, the person I quoted is clearly incorrect. We have seen skills and balance changed due to feedback players have provided.

TheShadowScout

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Will We Ever Have True Balance?

Nope.
Next question?

Seriosuly though, "game balance" is and always will be a work in progress. They make notes, they find out what does not work as planned, they nerf this and buff that, they make more notes, they find out what still does not work as planned, they buff this and nerf that, rinse, repeat...

Alcast

This game is more balanced than other MMOs.

Also, having a balanced game does not really guarantee "fun". We all know how many unique class abilties or passives they already nerfed into the ground because it was "not fair" but basically killed off half the class and uniqueness of the it

idk

Alcast wrote: »

This game is more balanced than other MMOs.

Also, having a balanced game does not really guarantee "fun". We all know how many unique class abilties or passives they already nerfed into the ground because it was "not fair" but basically killed off half the class and uniqueness of the it

This is really it. And beyond just this they have homogenized a number of skills reducing choices.

RavenSworn

What type of balance are you trying to find? A see saw type of balance? A rock paper scissors type? A counter weight? A same levelled off balance?

Many mmos tried but it's just not possible. It's the players themselves, no matter the system. Path of least resistance and maximum output. And no matter what the devs do to try and balance it, players will still change it to their whims.

DHale

Even if the game was perfectly balanced the vast majority of players are not that good. So it doesn’t matter.

Dracane

Then I blame it on your inactivity, that you believe that Magicka Warden is OP or something similar in pvp. Not at all.
The healing ult is OP and the only dangerous attack it has, is the Cliffracer. You are right about stamina warden though and about everything else you said.

FearlessOne_2014

CyrusArya wrote: »

Will we ever go a patch without a self righteous rant post from the OP?

As far as ‘true balance’....balance is a subjective term. There are too many variables and too many mediums to balance across for everyone to be satisfied. That being said, the game is more balanced now than ever before in my experience, with very few if any glaring imbalances in the way of old mag DKs or crit enabled proc sets. ZOS has done a great job of slowly, but steadily, addressing the issues patch by patch to create a more polished game.

I highly agree with this! This game has never seen better balance before. And unlike other MMO companies (GW2), ZOS is still constantly working on ESO's balance.

I feel like before Star Citizens release in like 3 to 10 more years. That the only 2 decent PvX MMOs on the market will be ESO and BDO. All the other MMO's PvP system are and will be just too garbage to deal with. Maybe in so cases they are and will be just all around failed MMOs. (Both PvP and PvE wise, like GW2 and BnS)

Froil wrote: »

True balance is a lie. True balance is a dream. True balance can never be, nor can there be any semblance of.

But in your heart of hearts you know the truth; the imbalance within the game IS the true balance.

I agree with you when you stated true balance is a lie. I mean we humans can't even do something so simple and available as balance our very own Wealth system that we created! So how do you expect us as humans to bring true balance to anything in this and other planes of existences.

In order for us to even be able to somewhat grasp the concept of true balance. We as a species would have to undergo a major paradigm shift, of our entire psyche as a whole.

JD2013

True balance in an MMO is something that has never and will never happen. I have seen it in many MMO's, and I am sure it will be a thing in MMO's of the future.

And no matter how the devs of any game tweak and nerf and buff abilities, this is not the root of the supposed problem.

The thing is, no matter how the skills are "balanced" there will always be players who strive for the best. Who spend ages calculating their builds. Who want to win and be the best. Because this is human nature. It dictates that if you want to "win" you have to be good and put time and effort in. And I am sorry if this upsets anyone, but there will always be someone that is better than you at the game if you want to be one of those top players.

Some will always go on forums and ask for something to be nerfed because they died and rage quit to it. Someone will always have a better build than you, better gear, and even if you have the exact same build as a top player, that does not guarantee a win. There is an element of skill involved.

If we want true balance, how about we all go into Cyrodiil with sticks and no armour? xD

GrigorijMalahevich

No need to balance things and go mad, just need to tweak things that are _obviously_ overperforming.

Potentially it is a good thing to accept that pvp and pve must be balanced separately...

Good luck

VaranisArano

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It’s pretty disturbing to see so many people being at ease with the game not being truly balanced, or even caring about the future of balancing. The whole attitude of, “Nope, who cares? Just deal with it, and carry on.” is really quite alarming.

Maybe I’m just old fashioned, and my age is really starting to show... But, it’s really sad to observe this type of mindset that people are displaying. It is if people don’t even care about the state of their game, and are just here to go along to get along. And it seems to me like the devs are more than aware of this, and thus use that as the logic to continue on doing what it is that they’ve been doing for so long. Player base was never like this, and yes. While it is true that most of those with similar views of mine have up and quit when Morrowind dropped, its just sad. Like damn... Look at how this community has fallen. Who exists nowadays that gives a damn anymore, and is outspoken to the bs that swarms about both in-game and on the forums? Nowadays you get shunned for it.

And please, don’t misunderstand. I know about imbalances regarding MMO’s and multiplayer games in general. Trust me. I get it. Ice/frost mages in WoW? Magneto/Storm/Sentinel in MvC2? Ice Climbers in SB? Yeah, I know. Balance will never truly exist theoretically. But damn it if people can’t acrively work hard to achieve it. And it’s just so crushing to see people not give a damn about it anymore. It’s sick, man. It’s really sick.

It's part of the '*** you got mine' and the whole 'ADAPT OR LEAVE' craze.

Wanting balance would require criticism of the game and holding the game accountable for the times it's outright disreguarded player feedback. And they would do that because they've indoctinated themselves into unconditional love of this game.

Personally, I dont see it happening because the designers DO NOT RESPECT OUR FEEDBACK, REGUARDLESS OF WHAT THEY SAY. WE HAVE TO FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL TO GET ANYTHING CHANGED.

This is not all that correct. Much of the "criticism" provided here in the forums is based on incorrect information to begin with.

An extreme example is the regular threads we see complaining about a skill or even a class being OP. It is either they got attacked by 10 players with 9 using that skill and upset they died or there are multiple counters to the skill being used against them but openly state the do not want to have to use a counter.

Zos has taken our advice though there is some advice many of us wish they would have taken, namely concerning the sustain changes with Morrowind, but we have adjusted and are doing ok. Yea, I would like cost reduction returned.

@idk So now, I’m curious. Would you agree or disagree that from a PvE perspective, Wardens could definitely use a myriad of buffs (specifically magicka Wardens)? Yet from a PvP perspective, Wardens need a major series of reworks and nerfs (specifically stamina Wardens)?

Because that is in my opinion a perfect example of how screwed up balance is and how much inconsistency there is. Here is a class that is extremely subpar and lacking in 1 aspect of the game, but is overperforming dramatically in another aspect. There is no middle grounds or consistency, like the other classes. It’s literally 1 extreme or the other.

You DO realize that the difference in performance is simply because PVE DPS calls for a sustained and fairly even amount of high DPS, relying on DOTs to keep up a consistent amount whereas PVP relies much more on burst damage to overwhelm the opponent's defenses and heals, right?

Wardens struggle in PVE DPS because they lack in the sort of sustained, consistent DOT dps and their passives are geared towards ice, the current tanking destro staff. Wardens excel in PVP DPS because instead, their skills gar very geared towards burst damage that makes it easier to overwhelm their opponent.

dsalter

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

MMOs are made with the perfect imbalance theory my friend . Watch and see how it works to keep players playing .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

true points but the keyword being slight imbalances and not landslides.

Cously

True balance will only be achieved if everyone have access to every skill. Allow class skill lines to be acquired through questing. For those concerned that everyone will run the same build...most people already do through alts, people who won't are quitting PVE and PVP rather than roll new characters.

Racial passives should be kept unique but with standard numbers for all races (if a race as a health bonus, that it be 10% for everyone, not 12% or 6% here and there). That will render some balance because people can match their cosmetic choice without feeling they are losing too much on the passives, will also amplify diversity. I play Elder Scrolls for its lore but so many concessions were already made to support gameplay so who will care if a Nord and Imperial have same % of health.

Disconnect damage from resource pools, Pelinal's set would make sense. That would introduce hybrids back to the game in a competitive manner rather than have them as misfits in the fringes. Possible build diversity.

Let's face it, most morphs of skills are entirely ignored and everyone goes for the meta, they even have to nerf/buff to make us use them, why not just make a PVE/PVP morph that the user can choose, that would allow freedom, balance and some soft limitation (barred by costs of respec).

The fact you can slot only 12 skills (compared to other MMOs where you can make full use of 500000 skills at once) is enough of a limiting factor that will force people to choose whilst having freedom of many stuff to choose from.

ZOS, the fact you changed core skill classes (Poison knight...) and went back and forth through changes...You don't fool anyone, anyone with a peanut for a brain can see you have no idea what you are doing or taking the game to. Make life easier on yourselves. The above changes will save you a lot of trouble in this pointless circle of balance. You guys do look like the ouroboros sign LOL

Once those ridiculous balance attempts of the last 4 years are out of the way, you can finally give us the juices like spellcrafting and new classes/lines without guilty. Also, yes some choices are cool to have like either vampire OR werewolf, since they can be changed in game with a cost/time.

Class change tokens would go a long way to alleviate the problem and make you some money on the side. Account wide achievements could also fix part of the problem but won't be as exciting as having all lines in one char. Several games already do that, it's the 21st century. Ohh, go away with your "CHOICES MATTER" argument, ZOS changes the game too much for choices consequences fall on the player's shoulders.

I saw more than half of my friend list quit the game, players who were hardcore on ESO, spent their money and time relentlessly but the constant "balance" crap just tired them out. I have 8,000 hours played time on my only characted beloved Breton MagDK...why would I roll an alt? I'm not happy however, having played the DK since day 1 I saw it's agonizing nerf process bleeding it like a Christmas pig ready for dinner. DO SOMETHING!

SnubbS

You're never going to have balance the way this game is setup, you'd need to strip classes out of the game and allow people to choose their own skill lines and racials in a "Pick 4" sort of way. I'd be very much for this idea—but it still wouldn't technically be "Balanced" because there would obviously be an optimal set of choices for whatever job you want your character to do. If you didn't pick the correct choices, your character wouldn't be balanced. Another reason that this wouldn't be balanced, is that there are hard counters to certain skills that aren't based of individual skill.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

MMOs are made with the perfect imbalance theory my friend . Watch and see how it works to keep players playing .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

I've developed an irrational hatred of that YouTuber from seeing his videos posted here so often.

altemriel

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Wardens are ridiculously overpowered from a PvP perspective (magicka or stamina based, but more so stamina), but are absolutely hot garbage from a PvE perspective (more so from a magicka perspective). It’s so imbalanced and inconsistent that it’s like, “Okay... Do I want to be a powerhouse in PvP, or do I just want to be extremely suboptimal and mediocre in PvE?” That’s literally what is the case in ESO currently regarding this class.

But, it doesn’t just stop at classes. You have terrible sustain occurring within a PvE environment, resulting in classes being forced to adapt through HA builds and all that jazz. But in PvP still have infinite sustain builds that exists. Even with the changes made. So the changes that occurred with Morrowind weren’t so much of a proper fix, but rather a bandaid fix to a bigger issue.

You went on ahead and said a few times that people’s incredible healing was at fault a few times, and thus nerfed heals a bit. Especially from a PvP perspective. Buuuuut you then introduce the Restoration Staff ultimate and vitality potions. You introduce TrollKing and sets like Earthgore. Even though you nerfed Malubeth for some odd reason. I’d rather be fight someone wearing Malubeth than Trollking anyday, and I’m sure many people would agree with me on that.

You nerfed proc-sets, because they were overperforming in PvP. And even made it so that they don’t crit in PvE nor PvP. Buuuuuut that again was another bandaid fix to an even bigger issue. As I’m pretty sure people can still burst people down with Selene and all that jazz. Skoria and what not. So n’ah. That wasn’t really the answer to things. And if it was, then you should’ve did it from only a PvP perspective. Not PvE.

And why is that? Because you keep introducing content that is supposed to be more challenging, when in fact it’s just things having higher HP and being more meat shields than anything. Case and point? VCOS. VAS. And so on. It’s not hard due to mechanics. N’ah. It’s just bothersome, because of the length of things. The fact that things are damage sponges. And that’s it.

And it’s not even so much as a CP issue, as no-CP BG proved this. Stamina builds annihilated and ran rampant, because of the obvious advantages that stamina builds have over magicka builds when CP is removed from the equation. So n’ah. It’s not even that.

So will we ever have true balance...?

...

Nope. This game will never have true balance. Will I quit this game over it not having true balance? No. Is this a quit thread? No. But what this is, is a thread to bring to the attention to many that this game will never truly be balanced. PvP? Will never be balanced. PvE? Never will be balanced. Classes? Will never be balanced. Champion points? Will never. Be. Balanced.

why so much pesimism? there are so many variables which come into play, that I can understand that ZOS has hard time balancing it all.

but I agree, that PVP and PVE should be balanced separately, because there is no point in adjusting something which applies to PVP and so nerfing it unnecessarily too much for PVE and vice versa

but it is an ongoing project and it is slowly, very slowly getting better and better

notimetocare

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Wardens are ridiculously overpowered from a PvP perspective (magicka or stamina based, but more so stamina), but are absolutely hot garbage from a PvE perspective (more so from a magicka perspective). It’s so imbalanced and inconsistent that it’s like, “Okay... Do I want to be a powerhouse in PvP, or do I just want to be extremely suboptimal and mediocre in PvE?” That’s literally what is the case in ESO currently regarding this class.

But, it doesn’t just stop at classes. You have terrible sustain occurring within a PvE environment, resulting in classes being forced to adapt through HA builds and all that jazz. But in PvP still have infinite sustain builds that exists. Even with the changes made. So the changes that occurred with Morrowind weren’t so much of a proper fix, but rather a bandaid fix to a bigger issue.

You went on ahead and said a few times that people’s incredible healing was at fault a few times, and thus nerfed heals a bit. Especially from a PvP perspective. Buuuuut you then introduce the Restoration Staff ultimate and vitality potions. You introduce TrollKing and sets like Earthgore. Even though you nerfed Malubeth for some odd reason. I’d rather be fight someone wearing Malubeth than Trollking anyday, and I’m sure many people would agree with me on that.

You nerfed proc-sets, because they were overperforming in PvP. And even made it so that they don’t crit in PvE nor PvP. Buuuuuut that again was another bandaid fix to an even bigger issue. As I’m pretty sure people can still burst people down with Selene and all that jazz. Skoria and what not. So n’ah. That wasn’t really the answer to things. And if it was, then you should’ve did it from only a PvP perspective. Not PvE.

And why is that? Because you keep introducing content that is supposed to be more challenging, when in fact it’s just things having higher HP and being more meat shields than anything. Case and point? VCOS. VAS. And so on. It’s not hard due to mechanics. N’ah. It’s just bothersome, because of the length of things. The fact that things are damage sponges. And that’s it.

And it’s not even so much as a CP issue, as no-CP BG proved this. Stamina builds annihilated and ran rampant, because of the obvious advantages that stamina builds have over magicka builds when CP is removed from the equation. So n’ah. It’s not even that.

So will we ever have true balance...?

...

Nope. This game will never have true balance. Will I quit this game over it not having true balance? No. Is this a quit thread? No. But what this is, is a thread to bring to the attention to many that this game will never truly be balanced. PvP? Will never be balanced. PvE? Never will be balanced. Classes? Will never be balanced. Champion points? Will never. Be. Balanced.

Short answer: no
Long answer: that is not even possible in an Mmorpg that has a large number of classes and skill line combinations

Thogard

The poet of our generation

WhiteMage

So many here are so defeatist about balance... "We'll never have balance, so there is no point in even trying. Just give up!"
And there's another group (which fortunately seems to be getting smaller over time) that says you can only balance with zero diversity. There are two ways to balance a scale: put all the weight on the fulcrum (which is easier) or to spread the weight around such that the center of mass is over that fulcrum. Idk about you, but if I wanted the former I'd play a MOBA.

Granted, there are some design choices in ESO that make balance more difficult and were probably taken too lightly, but you shouldn't quit asking for better.

idk

Cously wrote: »

True balance will only be achieved if everyone have access to every skill. Allow class skill lines to be acquired through questing. Allow class skill lines to be acquired through questing. For those concerned that everyone will run the same build...most people already do through alts, people who won't are quitting PVE and PVP rather than roll new characters

That defeats the purpose of having classes, which my guess is what you want.

Then we have one build for everyone. Do not have skill X the you will have it by tomorrow or you can enjoy the pug groups.

Even your comment that most people already do through alts proves my point and that it is a very poor idea.

You essentially state everyone does not run the same build because they run different classes, yes you do. You indicate that if we eliminated classes it would be exactly as I stated.

Extremely bad idea. Boring to the max.

On a different note, interesting how the OP asks me a question point blank yet does not reply. It is likely because he knows my comment is correct.

BLKmarketBODIES

Hurbster wrote: »

You will never have balance until pvp and pve are separate.

Yeah this. In anything I've played, when the two are a shared experience, balance is either impossible or ruins the game when it's attempted.

Jarryzzt

.......................................................the whole question re: "true balance" really reminds me of CompSec's notions of "perfect security" or "theoretical security". You could actually get a form of "perfect security" IRL under very specific conditions (using one-time pads), but in actual use these are very difficult to meet and sustain (the whole VENONA project - decrypting ~3k Soviet intelligence messages - was based on an institutional violation viz. codebook creation by the Soviets). So instead, in most "real-world" applications we settle for "imperfect" security that is nevertheless deemed "good enough" - e.g. online credit card transactions are typically encrypted to a standard such that it would take, say, 5-7 years to break via brute force, which is more than enough for a given card to simply expire. This is why quantum computing is viewed as a bit of a double-edged sword, in that all the old crypto technologies will suddenly need to be replaced because 5-7 years becomes 5-7 days or less...

My point is this. "Perfect balance", like "perfect security", is largely a theoretical concept outside of a few very specific applications. E.g. if there is only one character class using one skill and wearing identical gear (scaled with levels), and this essentially reminds me of a very old - mid-1990s - LAN deathmatch game where players drove identical wireframe "tanks" with identical weapons and stats. Yes, that was balanced. Good luck turning that into "2.5 million monthly active users"...

---

Instead, we, MMO players, and I don't just mean MMO RPGs, must settle for some version of "good enough" balance, and here different companies approach things differently. [Ditto in other gaming mediums, by the way, e.g. MTGs, tabletop, etc.] Which essentially comes down to cutting down on outliers, because even the heaviest server-side number crunching and the most timely adjustments are still not going to be able to perfectly balance every conceivable "variant" (especially if the number of permutations expands - WoT is a good example of what happens when a game grows exponentially over nearly a decade).

Unfortunately, "good enough" is, by definition, somewhat of a subjective standard. Even when there are statistical "windows" involved (e.g. "we want each class to have server stat X equal to Y"), the player base for a large MMO is far from homogeneous, and so you still end up skewing something, somewhere no matter what change you make (or not make). [In WoT you could see this via a pretty significant variation in both usage and stats for the same vehicles across different national servers - or even the same server but across time as local player bases changed.]

All of which means that no matter what ZOS does, someone will always be unhappy because something will always be out of acceptable bounds. On top of which every time ZOS tries to redress some real or perceived balancing "wrong" you'll inevitably get howls of frustration from those players who had been thoroughly enjoying said "wrong" in the first place (or, conversely, find the new "right" to be far less acceptable than the old "wrong").

The question one ought to ask oneself therefor is not whether "we" shall ever have "true balance", but rather - is the extant game balance workable for me, personally, at least until the next balancing patch.

AzraelKrieg

Would you go away? For good? Please? It would be the best gift we could receive this Christmas

SkyIsTheLimit1206

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

jssriot wrote: »

Why is someone whose sig says they're an inactive TESO player devoting this much time to whining about it? Move on, dude.

@jssriot What does that have to do with the initial post, and the topic of balance in ESO?

Edit:
I can answer this question. It has nothing to do with it. You made your post with malicious intent, and to try and low-key bait/flame me. If I had not made this thread, balance would still not exist within ESO. Nor would it ever. In fact, me not playing this game wouldn’t resolve the issue of balance regarding ESO. Nor would me playing it actively and regularly.

I hope you get the agrees and awesomes that you’re fishing for, like so many others do on these forums. In fact, I’m feeling generous. Here. I’ll give you an agree, just to make you feel successful. Have a happy holidays, young man.

Well, that poster got 18 agrees for that post

Must be onto something

siggi1856

There will never be balance in this or any other similar game. I really hope that ZOS will change the strategy and be honest and say it cant be balanced. But isn‘t also more fun to be successfull with an underpowered class.

Kel

WhiteMage wrote: »

So many here are so defeatist about balance... "We'll never have balance, so there is no point in even trying. Just give up!"
And there's another group (which fortunately seems to be getting smaller over time) that says you can only balance with zero diversity. There are two ways to balance a scale: put all the weight on the fulcrum (which is easier) or to spread the weight around such that the center of mass is over that fulcrum. Idk about you, but if I wanted the former I'd play a MOBA.

Granted, there are some design choices in ESO that make balance more difficult and were probably taken too lightly, but you shouldn't quit asking for better.

If you read my post, I actually say balance is something that is constantly worked on. Yet, it's never been achieved to this day, by any game in this genre. Some have come close, but not grabbed the ring. If you think that's a inaccurate statement, show me one that has achieved perfect balance.
Imbalances in MMO's are just the nature of the beast. It's like asking a lion to eat vegetables with thier meat everytime they eat. Not likely to happen.
Working on it, or asking for better, already happens...all the time. That's exactly why we see class changes in the patch notes every patch. But no game has ever gotten there. I don't think you can, unless everything is on the same playing field..no classes, no differing skill lines, just the same skills/abilities wearing the exact same gear. Perfect balance doesn't really seem all that great to me, in my opinion. It sounds boring and stale..

Cously

idk wrote: »

Cously wrote: »

True balance will only be achieved if everyone have access to every skill. Allow class skill lines to be acquired through questing. Allow class skill lines to be acquired through questing. For those concerned that everyone will run the same build...most people already do through alts, people who won't are quitting PVE and PVP rather than roll new characters

That defeats the purpose of having classes, which my guess is what you want.

Then we have one build for everyone. Do not have skill X the you will have it by tomorrow or you can enjoy the pug groups.

Even your comment that most people already do through alts proves my point and that it is a very poor idea.

You essentially state everyone does not run the same build because they run different classes, yes you do. You indicate that if we eliminated classes it would be exactly as I stated.

Extremely bad idea. Boring to the max.

On a different note, interesting how the OP asks me a question point blank yet does not reply. It is likely because he knows my comment is correct.

It's irrelevant if you think is bad or boring. The OP is talking about balance and that's the only way to achieve true balance.