Will We Ever Have True Balance?

Ch4mpTW

Wardens are ridiculously overpowered from a PvP perspective (magicka or stamina based, but more so stamina), but are absolutely hot garbage from a PvE perspective (more so from a magicka perspective). It’s so imbalanced and inconsistent that it’s like, “Okay... Do I want to be a powerhouse in PvP, or do I just want to be extremely suboptimal and mediocre in PvE?” That’s literally what is the case in ESO currently regarding this class.

But, it doesn’t just stop at classes. You have terrible sustain occurring within a PvE environment, resulting in classes being forced to adapt through HA builds and all that jazz. But in PvP still have infinite sustain builds that exists. Even with the changes made. So the changes that occurred with Morrowind weren’t so much of a proper fix, but rather a bandaid fix to a bigger issue.

You went on ahead and said a few times that people’s incredible healing was at fault a few times, and thus nerfed heals a bit. Especially from a PvP perspective. Buuuuut you then introduce the Restoration Staff ultimate and vitality potions. You introduce TrollKing and sets like Earthgore. Even though you nerfed Malubeth for some odd reason. I’d rather be fight someone wearing Malubeth than Trollking anyday, and I’m sure many people would agree with me on that.

You nerfed proc-sets, because they were overperforming in PvP. And even made it so that they don’t crit in PvE nor PvP. Buuuuuut that again was another bandaid fix to an even bigger issue. As I’m pretty sure people can still burst people down with Selene and all that jazz. Skoria and what not. So n’ah. That wasn’t really the answer to things. And if it was, then you should’ve did it from only a PvP perspective. Not PvE.

And why is that? Because you keep introducing content that is supposed to be more challenging, when in fact it’s just things having higher HP and being more meat shields than anything. Case and point? VCOS. VAS. And so on. It’s not hard due to mechanics. N’ah. It’s just bothersome, because of the length of things. The fact that things are damage sponges. And that’s it.

And it’s not even so much as a CP issue, as no-CP BG proved this. Stamina builds annihilated and ran rampant, because of the obvious advantages that stamina builds have over magicka builds when CP is removed from the equation. So n’ah. It’s not even that.

So will we ever have true balance...?

...

Nope. This game will never have true balance. Will I quit this game over it not having true balance? No. Is this a quit thread? No. But what this is, is a thread to bring to the attention to many that this game will never truly be balanced. PvP? Will never be balanced. PvE? Never will be balanced. Classes? Will never be balanced. Champion points? Will never. Be. Balanced.

Storm_knight22

No

jssriot

Why is someone whose sig says they're an inactive TESO player devoting this much time to whining about it? Move on, dude.

Ch4mpTW

jssriot wrote: »

Why is someone whose sig says they're an inactive TESO player devoting this much time to whining about it? Move on, dude.

@jssriot What does that have to do with the initial post, and the topic of balance in ESO?

Edit:
I can answer this question. It has nothing to do with it. You made your post with malicious intent, and to try and low-key bait/flame me. If I had not made this thread, balance would still not exist within ESO. Nor would it ever. In fact, me not playing this game wouldn’t resolve the issue of balance regarding ESO. Nor would me playing it actively and regularly.

I hope you get the agrees and awesomes that you’re fishing for, like so many others do on these forums. In fact, I’m feeling generous. Here. I’ll give you an agree, just to make you feel successful. Have a happy holidays, young man.

Hurbster

You will never have balance until pvp and pve are separate.

Ch4mpTW

Hurbster wrote: »

You will never have balance until pvp and pve are separate.

@Hurbster While I do agree with you, I feel that the separation of balance regarding PvE and PvP would be only the trigger. It would be enabler in a sense. Once PvE and PvP are seperately viewed in regards to balance, then the devs could from there begin to look at things from a closer perspective. They could look deep into a lot of the issues plaguing ESO regarding balance, and fine-tune things as needed. Instead of them saying, “Well uh, we don’t want this particular skill doing as much damage due to it being potentially used against players... Let’s tone it down a few notches only when this skill is utilized against players only. While letting it do its initial amount of damage against bosses and enemy NPC’s.”

AcadianPaladin

True balance?

- Stop trying to balance PvP and PvE together. How many years of failing at this does it take to make the point that it will not work?

- To TRULY balance PvP would require that only one class be allowed to PvP. Where the only diffs would be gear and skills that are available to every PvPer. Don't think that would go over too well.

Zordrage

True balance does not exist....

its not even remotely possible to get true balance in Games especially in games where you have freedom of how you build your char....

the Only balanced games Board games like Chess or other games like that or football for example....

people need to stop chasing this dream called True/perfect Balance on the PvP part of video games....

Nemeliom

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

jssriot wrote: »

Why is someone whose sig says they're an inactive TESO player devoting this much time to whining about it? Move on, dude.

@jssriot What does that have to do with the initial post, and the topic of balance in ESO?

Edit:
I can answer this question. It has nothing to do with it. You made your post with malicious intent, and to try and low-key bait/flame me. If I had not made this thread, balance would still not exist within ESO. Nor would it ever. In fact, me not playing this game wouldn’t resolve the issue of balance regarding ESO. Nor would me playing it actively and regularly.

I hope you get the agrees and awesomes that you’re fishing for, like so many others do on these forums. In fact, I’m feeling generous. Here. I’ll give you an agree, just to make you feel successful. Have a happy holidays, young man.

Histérica...

Mister_DMC

Nah Champ this time you're wrong, sure are they op in PvP right now, yes. Stam and Magicka Warden can both get 590-600k score in VMA and hit 40k+ on the dummy.

idk

True balance in any MMO is a myth and always has been when choices were available.

In a game with a huge abundance of choices it is a greater challenge which is why which ever class is stronger eventually becomes the weakest.

I would expect anyone who has played MMORPGs for awhile would be keenly aware of this.

Ch4mpTW

Zordrage wrote: »

True balance does not exist....

its not even remotely possible to get true balance in Games especially in games where you have freedom of how you build your char....

the Only balanced games Board games like Chess or other games like that or football for example....

people need to stop chasing this dream called True/perfect Balance on the PvP part of video games....

@Zordrage So out of curiosity, how was it possible that ZOS was so close to achieving this in the past long ago? Back when VR14 was cap, and even previously. Even with: DK’s with dynamic ultimate regeneration, DK’s able to reflect Meteor and all that jazz, Fossilize having it’s amazing range, Sorcs being able to have no penalty after Bolt Escape, Sorcs having longer lasting shields, people being able to block and regenerate at the same time, Templars being able to Radiant Destruction at obnoxious distances AND have Major Mending, etc. The game felt incredibly balanced. Seriously. The game felt sharp. It felt sustained. It felt “fair”.

Back then, there was a huge variety of classes that wandered Cyrodiil. Not 3 of 5 people I encountered was a Nightblade. And even then, there was an abundance of variety regarding how you build your character. Heavy armor wasn’t the end-all and be-all of PvP. And in PvE, you weren’t pseudo-forced into using the same gear pieces over and over again. Even with Silks of the Sun and Martial Knowledge being the highly related sets back then. The vast majority of magicka builds weren’t running around doing that. There was variety. There was viable and valid choices you could make to be successful in either trial or PvP environments. You could excel while being different. Nowadays? Oh you’re a magicka build? Better use that Moondancer or Necropotence. Better use that Vicious Death or Selene. Better use that Skoria or Grothdarr. You know? It isn’t a, “Oh, well I better use a Maelstrom Staff and of lightning staff for my backbar. Because if I couldn’t, I’m losing crazy amounts of DPS.” N’ah. That didn’t exist. But it does not. And it’s disheartening.

Milvan

idk wrote: »

True balance in any MMO is a myth and always has been when choices were available.

In a game with a huge abundance of choices it is a greater challenge which is why which ever class is stronger eventually becomes the weakest.

I would expect anyone who has played MMORPGs for awhile would be keenly aware of this.

Totally agree. It applies to any other competitive games as well. One build-weapon-toon-whatever always excels, especially when you have a skilled player playing it.

Concerning OP, Champ, I have been following the forums for quite a while and your threads are all really very characteristic. Most of the players that follow the forums realized that you never had a healthy relation with ESO. At least it's implied on every comment and thread that you bring up.

For real, just let it go.

playsforfun

TL;DR but the answer is no if it relates to you subject question.

Sigtric

Milvan wrote: »

idk wrote: »

True balance in any MMO is a myth and always has been when choices were available.

In a game with a huge abundance of choices it is a greater challenge which is why which ever class is stronger eventually becomes the weakest.

I would expect anyone who has played MMORPGs for awhile would be keenly aware of this.

Totally agree. It applies to any other competitive games as well. One build-weapon-toon-whatever always excels, especially when you have a skilled player playing it.

Concerning OP, Champ, I have been following the forums for quite a while and your threads are all really very characteristic. Most of the players that follow the forums realized that you never had a healthy relation with ESO. At least it's implied on every comment and thread that you bring up.

For real, just let it go.

It's so much more fun to reach peak CryTW though...

idk

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Zordrage wrote: »

True balance does not exist....

its not even remotely possible to get true balance in Games especially in games where you have freedom of how you build your char....

the Only balanced games Board games like Chess or other games like that or football for example....

people need to stop chasing this dream called True/perfect Balance on the PvP part of video games....

@Zordrage So out of curiosity, how was it possible that ZOS was so close to achieving this in the past long ago? Back when VR14 was cap, and even previously.

I can only assume you were playing the stronger class and build at that time if you think there was balance.

Ch4mpTW

Mister_DMC wrote: »

Nah Champ this time you're wrong, sure are they op in PvP right now, yes. Stam and Magicka Warden can both get 590-600k score in VMA and hit 40k+ on the dummy.

How so, comrade? A magicka and stamina Warden may true indeed be able to hit 590k-600k in VMA, and pull 40k+ DPS parades against a target dummy — but look at the amount of effort that’s being applied compared to all of the others. Sure. You can hit those high benchmarks on a magicka Warden, but compared to a Nightblade or a Sorcerer — why even jump through all of those hoops and complexities? And even then, your average person playing a Warden aren’t hitting those numbers on a Warden. Magicka or stamina based. Not even close, chief. Only the top of the top are pushing those numbers on a Warden. And you know that.

For example, you could take a MagDK in a trial or a stam character. Unless you’re in need of a chainer (or maybe AoE interrupt lol), why even bother with the MagDK? It takes up a melee spot, and it isn’t even worth the trade-off. Yes, Engulfing Flames is cute and all. But are you really going to give up that spot, when you could have a StamDK? A StamBlade? A StamSorc? And so on. Not really. It isn’t worth the trade-off, because MagDK’s perform so subpar compared to the others. Why bring a magicka Warden in for a magicka DPS spot, when you can bring in a MagSorc or MagBlade? You understand where I am going with this? It isn’t worth it. And we both know that, chief.

MehrunesFlagon

Sounding like a broken record,but they could just balance separately.

Ch4mpTW

idk wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Zordrage wrote: »

True balance does not exist....

its not even remotely possible to get true balance in Games especially in games where you have freedom of how you build your char....

the Only balanced games Board games like Chess or other games like that or football for example....

people need to stop chasing this dream called True/perfect Balance on the PvP part of video games....

@Zordrage So out of curiosity, how was it possible that ZOS was so close to achieving this in the past long ago? Back when VR14 was cap, and even previously.

I can only assume you were playing the stronger class and build at that time if you think there was balance.

N’ah. I was playing MagSorc back then, and then started a bit of MagDK right after regenerating stamina while blocking was nerfed. Wasn’t even following the meta of DW’ing swords on magicka builds either. Lol. I was Destro/Resto back then on both MagDK and MagSorc. Using pets on my Sorc too. And that was the ultimate no-no back then, as PetSorcs caught a ton of flak in both PvE and PvP. Had the flame resist glyph on my necklance piece, as I was a vampire back then. The whole 9.

Autumnhart

No. Accept and move on.

Zordrage

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Zordrage wrote: »

True balance does not exist....

its not even remotely possible to get true balance in Games especially in games where you have freedom of how you build your char....

the Only balanced games Board games like Chess or other games like that or football for example....

people need to stop chasing this dream called True/perfect Balance on the PvP part of video games....

@Zordrage So out of curiosity, how was it possible that ZOS was so close to achieving this in the past long ago? Back when VR14 was cap, and even previously. Even with: DK’s with dynamic ultimate regeneration, DK’s able to reflect Meteor and all that jazz, Fossilize having it’s amazing range, Sorcs being able to have no penalty after Bolt Escape, Sorcs having longer lasting shields, people being able to block and regenerate at the same time, Templars being able to Radiant Destruction at obnoxious distances AND have Major Mending, etc. The game felt incredibly balanced. Seriously. The game felt sharp. It felt sustained. It felt “fair”.

Back then, there was a huge variety of classes that wandered Cyrodiil. Not 3 of 5 people I encountered was a Nightblade. And even then, there was an abundance of variety regarding how you build your character. Heavy armor wasn’t the end-all and be-all of PvP. And in PvE, you weren’t pseudo-forced into using the same gear pieces over and over again. Even with Silks of the Sun and Martial Knowledge being the highly related sets back then. The vast majority of magicka builds weren’t running around doing that. There was variety. There was viable and valid choices you could make to be successful in either trial or PvP environments. You could excel while being different. Nowadays? Oh you’re a magicka build? Better use that Moondancer or Necropotence. Better use that Vicious Death or Selene. Better use that Skoria or Grothdarr. You know? It isn’t a, “Oh, well I better use a Maelstrom Staff and of lightning staff for my backbar. Because if I couldn’t, I’m losing crazy amounts of DPS.” N’ah. That didn’t exist. But it does not. And it’s disheartening.

i wont gonna go into details of your post...

but this happens in every single MMORPG as it adds content and matures an unavoidable Power creep will happen...
Power creep always happens as the game grows...

Even in GW2 that does NOT add new better sets
Even in League of Legends the big Esport game

What you described here ALL WAYS happens on a game that is growing....it cannot be stopped...

BUT !
Once it happens after some time it can be worked around and toned down and fixed by the devs... but the Power creep will come back and it starts from the beginning again....

the only way to stop Power creep is Making the Game stale.... bassicaly not adding significant content to the game and not touching anything around the abilities and combat once it hits a prety nice spot....

but here is a question DO YOU want a Stale game ?
nobody pays a monthly sub for a Stale game....

TequilaFire

I don't know, we would probably find the game more boring if they ever did achieve true balance.
Look what problems nerfing damage and increasing survivability has brought to PvP .
As OP said it was actually more fun back before all the class and sustain nerfs even though it wasn't balance.

Doctordarkspawn

Likely not. But we can mitigate the worst of it without destroying variety and everything else in the process.

Ch4mpTW

It’s pretty disturbing to see so many people being at ease with the game not being truly balanced, or even caring about the future of balancing. The whole attitude of, “Nope, who cares? Just deal with it, and carry on.” is really quite alarming.

Maybe I’m just old fashioned, and my age is really starting to show... But, it’s really sad to observe this type of mindset that people are displaying. It is if people don’t even care about the state of their game, and are just here to go along to get along. And it seems to me like the devs are more than aware of this, and thus use that as the logic to continue on doing what it is that they’ve been doing for so long. Player base was never like this, and yes. While it is true that most of those with similar views of mine have up and quit when Morrowind dropped, its just sad. Like damn... Look at how this community has fallen. Who exists nowadays that gives a damn anymore, and is outspoken to the bs that swarms about both in-game and on the forums? Nowadays you get shunned for it.

And please, don’t misunderstand. I know about imbalances regarding MMO’s and multiplayer games in general. Trust me. I get it. Ice/frost mages in WoW? Magneto/Storm/Sentinel in MvC2? Ice Climbers in SB? Yeah, I know. Balance will never truly exist theoretically. But damn it if people can’t acrively work hard to achieve it. And it’s just so crushing to see people not give a damn about it anymore. It’s sick, man. It’s really sick.

Kiralyn2000

"True Balance"

In a PvE/PvP MMO?

No.

(pretty sure the only way to get "true balance" in a PvP game is in genres where everyone starts with a pre-set thing. Like fighting games, or arena shooters. Everyone starts at the same point, skill & luck from there on. No having a higher level, no starting with better gear/better stats, etc.)

idk

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Zordrage wrote: »

True balance does not exist....

its not even remotely possible to get true balance in Games especially in games where you have freedom of how you build your char....

the Only balanced games Board games like Chess or other games like that or football for example....

people need to stop chasing this dream called True/perfect Balance on the PvP part of video games....

@Zordrage So out of curiosity, how was it possible that ZOS was so close to achieving this in the past long ago? Back when VR14 was cap, and even previously.

I can only assume you were playing the stronger class and build at that time if you think there was balance.

N’ah. I was playing MagSorc back then, and then started a bit of MagDK right after regenerating stamina while blocking was nerfed. Wasn’t even following the meta of DW’ing swords on magicka builds either. Lol. I was Destro/Resto back then on both MagDK and MagSorc. Using pets on my Sorc too. And that was the ultimate no-no back then, as PetSorcs caught a ton of flak in both PvE and PvP. Had the flame resist glyph on my necklance piece, as I was a vampire back then. The whole 9.

You are dreaming then. There has never been true balance, never been balance in ESO or any other MMORPG class system. Sometimes closer than other times, but never balance.

As I stated earlier, anyone who has played MMORPGs for awhile would understand this.

Milvan

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It’s pretty disturbing to see so many people being at ease with the game not being truly balanced, or even caring about the future of balancing. The whole attitude of, “Nope, who cares? Just deal with it, and carry on.” is really quite alarming.

Maybe I’m just old fashioned, and my age is really starting to show... But, it’s really sad to observe this type of mindset that people are displaying. It is if people don’t even care about the state of their game, and are just here to go along to get along. And it seems to me like the devs are more than aware of this, and thus use that as the logic to continue on doing what it is that they’ve been doing for so long. Player base was never like this, and yes. While it is true that most of those with similar views of mine have up and quit when Morrowind dropped, its just sad. Like damn... Look at how this community has fallen. Who exists nowadays that gives a damn anymore, and is outspoken to the bs that swarms about both in-game and on the forums? Nowadays you get shunned for it.

And please, don’t misunderstand. I know about imbalances regarding MMO’s and multiplayer games in general. Trust me. I get it. Ice/frost mages in WoW? Magneto/Storm/Sentinel in MvC2? Ice Climbers in SB? Yeah, I know. Balance will never truly exist theoretically. But damn it if people can’t acrively work hard to achieve it. And it’s just so crushing to see people not give a damn about it anymore. It’s sick, man. It’s really sick.

So just because people didn't agree with your perspective you need to depreciate them? Really mature.

Rohamad_Ali

MMOs are made with the perfect imbalance theory my friend . Watch and see how it works to keep players playing .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

FearlessOne_2014

From my experience no MMO will ever have true balance. There are too many mechanisms for true balance to be a thing in this genre.

That being said I find balance in ESO way more acceptable. More so when comparing other MMOs on the market. With the exception of BDO I just started to try that game yesterday so I have no opinion on it yet. Look at balance in GW2, BnS, Tera, Rift, Swtor, DCUO, and WoW.

We have more build diversity here in ESO. Even with less classes than those other games I've mention. META here in ESO is nowhere near as imposing as the other MMOs I've listed. Meaning playing outside META builds does not equal a AUTO lose in ESO. Like it does in those other MMOs I've listed.

It could be better, yes. But ultimately, the MMO genre has fallen so far to greed. That ESO has some of the best balanced and meaningful gameplay in the genre.And for that I don't mind supporting ZOS.

Rainraven

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It’s pretty disturbing to see so many people being at ease with the game not being truly balanced, or even caring about the future of balancing. The whole attitude of, “Nope, who cares? Just deal with it, and carry on.” is really quite alarming.

Maybe I’m just old fashioned, and my age is really starting to show... But, it’s really sad to observe this type of mindset that people are displaying. It is if people don’t even care about the state of their game, and are just here to go along to get along. And it seems to me like the devs are more than aware of this, and thus use that as the logic to continue on doing what it is that they’ve been doing for so long. Player base was never like this, and yes. While it is true that most of those with similar views of mine have up and quit when Morrowind dropped, its just sad. Like damn... Look at how this community has fallen. Who exists nowadays that gives a damn anymore, and is outspoken to the bs that swarms about both in-game and on the forums? Nowadays you get shunned for it.

And please, don’t misunderstand. I know about imbalances regarding MMO’s and multiplayer games in general. Trust me. I get it. Ice/frost mages in WoW? Magneto/Storm/Sentinel in MvC2? Ice Climbers in SB? Yeah, I know. Balance will never truly exist theoretically. But damn it if people can’t acrively work hard to achieve it. And it’s just so crushing to see people not give a damn about it anymore. It’s sick, man. It’s really sick.

Nobody is saying stop trying. It's an unattainable ideal. You can keep mourning that if you want, but there's no reasonable reason to.

Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Ch4mpTW

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

MMOs are made with the perfect imbalance theory my friend . Watch and see how it works to keep players playing .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

@Rohamad_Ali Damn... That explains it all. It really does. That video alone sums up every question I could possibly have regarding a lot of the choices these devs make, minus a few personal and off-topic wonders that I think about...

I suppose I was a fool for ever giving a damn, and growing passionate about this game. Or any MMO that I have played in general. I was a fool for seeking balance, and for believing that it could 1 day exist. I was a fool for always intentionally being different, and going against the curve regarding builds and certain playstyles. . . I was a fool all along, Roh’. A fool all along.