Will We Ever Have True Balance?

Doctordarkspawn

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It’s pretty disturbing to see so many people being at ease with the game not being truly balanced, or even caring about the future of balancing. The whole attitude of, “Nope, who cares? Just deal with it, and carry on.” is really quite alarming.

Maybe I’m just old fashioned, and my age is really starting to show... But, it’s really sad to observe this type of mindset that people are displaying. It is if people don’t even care about the state of their game, and are just here to go along to get along. And it seems to me like the devs are more than aware of this, and thus use that as the logic to continue on doing what it is that they’ve been doing for so long. Player base was never like this, and yes. While it is true that most of those with similar views of mine have up and quit when Morrowind dropped, its just sad. Like damn... Look at how this community has fallen. Who exists nowadays that gives a damn anymore, and is outspoken to the bs that swarms about both in-game and on the forums? Nowadays you get shunned for it.

And please, don’t misunderstand. I know about imbalances regarding MMO’s and multiplayer games in general. Trust me. I get it. Ice/frost mages in WoW? Magneto/Storm/Sentinel in MvC2? Ice Climbers in SB? Yeah, I know. Balance will never truly exist theoretically. But damn it if people can’t acrively work hard to achieve it. And it’s just so crushing to see people not give a damn about it anymore. It’s sick, man. It’s really sick.

It's part of the '*** you got mine' and the whole 'ADAPT OR LEAVE' craze.

Wanting balance would require criticism of the game and holding the game accountable for the times it's outright disreguarded player feedback. And they would do that because they've indoctinated themselves into unconditional love of this game.

Personally, I dont see it happening because the designers DO NOT RESPECT OUR FEEDBACK, REGUARDLESS OF WHAT THEY SAY. WE HAVE TO FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL TO GET ANYTHING CHANGED.

CyrusArya

Will we ever go a patch without a self righteous rant post from the OP?

As far as ‘true balance’....balance is a subjective term. There are too many variables and too many mediums to balance across for everyone to be satisfied. That being said, the game is more balanced now than ever before in my experience, with very few if any glaring imbalances in the way of old mag DKs or crit enabled proc sets. ZOS has done a great job of slowly, but steadily, addressing the issues patch by patch to create a more polished game.

Doctordarkspawn

Milvan wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It’s pretty disturbing to see so many people being at ease with the game not being truly balanced, or even caring about the future of balancing. The whole attitude of, “Nope, who cares? Just deal with it, and carry on.” is really quite alarming.

Maybe I’m just old fashioned, and my age is really starting to show... But, it’s really sad to observe this type of mindset that people are displaying. It is if people don’t even care about the state of their game, and are just here to go along to get along. And it seems to me like the devs are more than aware of this, and thus use that as the logic to continue on doing what it is that they’ve been doing for so long. Player base was never like this, and yes. While it is true that most of those with similar views of mine have up and quit when Morrowind dropped, its just sad. Like damn... Look at how this community has fallen. Who exists nowadays that gives a damn anymore, and is outspoken to the bs that swarms about both in-game and on the forums? Nowadays you get shunned for it.

And please, don’t misunderstand. I know about imbalances regarding MMO’s and multiplayer games in general. Trust me. I get it. Ice/frost mages in WoW? Magneto/Storm/Sentinel in MvC2? Ice Climbers in SB? Yeah, I know. Balance will never truly exist theoretically. But damn it if people can’t acrively work hard to achieve it. And it’s just so crushing to see people not give a damn about it anymore. It’s sick, man. It’s really sick.

So just because people didn't agree with your perspective you need to depreciate them? Really mature.

As if you are not doing the exact same thing.

As if you dont regularly.

Kel

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It’s pretty disturbing to see so many people being at ease with the game not being truly balanced, or even caring about the future of balancing. The whole attitude of, “Nope, who cares? Just deal with it, and carry on.” is really quite alarming.

Maybe I’m just old fashioned, and my age is really starting to show... But, it’s really sad to observe this type of mindset that people are displaying. It is if people don’t even care about the state of their game, and are just here to go along to get along. And it seems to me like the devs are more than aware of this, and thus use that as the logic to continue on doing what it is that they’ve been doing for so long. Player base was never like this, and yes. While it is true that most of those with similar views of mine have up and quit when Morrowind dropped, its just sad. Like damn... Look at how this community has fallen. Who exists nowadays that gives a damn anymore, and is outspoken to the bs that swarms about both in-game and on the forums? Nowadays you get shunned for it.

And please, don’t misunderstand. I know about imbalances regarding MMO’s and multiplayer games in general. Trust me. I get it. Ice/frost mages in WoW? Magneto/Storm/Sentinel in MvC2? Ice Climbers in SB? Yeah, I know. Balance will never truly exist theoretically. But damn it if people can’t acrively work hard to achieve it. And it’s just so crushing to see people not give a damn about it anymore. It’s sick, man. It’s really sick.

I know how much players hate WoW being brought up here, but...
The game has been around 13 years and has never come close to achieving balance. No MMO ever has or ever will. That is the reality of it. It not that it isn't worked on, it's just not achievable. No game has done it...none.. Constantly working on it is the only viable answer.
It's like us as human beings, striving for perfection but knowing we can never actually reach that point. That's just the way it is. To achieve balance you'd have to have complete hominization...is that better? I'd rather have choice, even at the expense of balance.

Tandor

The perception of true balance is never achievable in PvP in MMORPGs, simply because the nature of PvP is such that there will always be winners and losers - and the losers will always want to blame what they perceive to be the lack of balance rather than differences in player ability. If PvPers want true balance then they shouldn't play multi-class MMORPGs.

However, the good PvPers don't need true balance, they work with what they've got and use superior ability to win more times than they lose. The other key factor in PvP is player numbers and levels - no matter what degree of balance you have a high level player will almost always beat a low level player, and a group will almost always beat a single player. Most of the time it isn't an equal contest before you even get to assess the class balance of those involved.

Rohamad_Ali

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

MMOs are made with the perfect imbalance theory my friend . Watch and see how it works to keep players playing .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

@Rohamad_Ali Damn... That explains it all. It really does. That video alone sums up every question I could possibly have regarding a lot of the choices these devs make, minus a few personal and off-topic wonders that I think about...

I suppose I was a fool for ever giving a damn, and growing passionate about this game. Or any MMO that I have played in general. I was a fool for seeking balance, and for believing that it could 1 day exist. I was a fool for always intentionally being different, and going against the curve regarding builds and certain playstyles. . . I was a fool all along, Roh’. A fool all along.

lol you are not a fool Champ . Not everyone knows how Devs create meta games to spark interest in keeping player retention . Only nerds like this one that constantly are researching strategy to counter meta build learn their design concept and theories . Most players just plug in and wonder what the heck is wrong with these Devs lol . It's not foolish it is the norm . Soon as you find the Jedi curve then it is easier to locate class B with counters for class A and balance is not as bad as one might think . The Devs do make mistakes though and sometimes make classes way too op because their formula is underdeveloped . Sometimes players are more clever then Devs and make super builds they did not anticipate so it is a non stop battle for perfect imbalance .

OutLaw_Nynx

Why are you still playing this game? I can’t really think of any reason that I would create a massive thread about something I’m angry with. Let it go. Take a break, again. This isn’t healthy anymore for you.

ak_pvp

We got decently close in the homestead patch. In PvE all was great, stam dealt a little higher, but not nearly as much as now, all classes were usable without being gimped totally, and some semblance of uniquness remained.

However it was a little bit of an "imbalanced balance." Everyone was a little bit too strong, procs and proxy bomb were rabid, same with full tank builds who could block/shield/heal etc forever.

monktoasty

True balance will only be achieved one THE ONE comes as the prophecy for tells..to restore balance..and end the night mare.

ak_pvp

CyrusArya wrote: »

Will we ever go a patch without a self righteous rant post from the OP?

As far as ‘true balance’....balance is a subjective term. There are too many variables and too many mediums to balance across for everyone to be satisfied. That being said, the game is more balanced now than ever before in my experience, with very few if any glaring imbalances in the way of old mag DKs or crit enabled proc sets. ZOS has done a great job of slowly, but steadily, addressing the issues patch by patch to create a more polished game.

In a way yes, but what did it take?

Blanket nerfs, lots of them.
A massive sustain nerf.
Taking a lot of fun from a class. Case in point: The old fast high damage sorcs are just shield spammy clunky bores.

But things are looking up, more communication and consideration to ideas seems to be happening, we just need to wait and see tbh.

MehrunesFlagon

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

From my experience no MMO will ever have true balance. There are too many mechanisms for true balance to be a thing in this genre.

That being said I find balance in ESO way more acceptable. More so when comparing other MMOs on the market. With the exception of BDO I just started to try that game yesterday so I have no opinion on it yet. Look at balance in GW2, BnS, Tera, Rift, Swtor, DCUO, and WoW.

We have more build diversity here in ESO. Even with less classes than those other games I've mention. META here in ESO is nowhere near as imposing as the other MMOs I've listed. Meaning playing outside META builds does not equal a AUTO lose in ESO. Like it does in those other MMOs I've listed.

It could be better, yes. But ultimately, the MMO genre has fallen so far to greed. That ESO has some of the best balanced and meaningful gameplay in the genre.And for that I don't mind supporting ZOS.

Honestly I don't know how you can view it as more acceptable.when they refuse to balance 2 different game modes,which are very different separately.

brandonv516

Separate PvE from PvP.

Take all PvP elements out of the game and just create ESO: Cyrogrounds in a completely different installment.

Follow the trend of Fortnite and PUBG and you could see some more interest. Right now everything is just a bandaid until the next one is needed.

monktoasty

It's true..because pvp should be a system of its own...with its own devices team..own leveling and own rewards. Separate from pve.

There would be more lateral possibilities to make pvp something more people would enjoy.

As it is now..a weakness of mmos..is the they always mix pve with pvp. Total folly.

Rainraven

ak_pvp wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Will we ever go a patch without a self righteous rant post from the OP?

As far as ‘true balance’....balance is a subjective term. There are too many variables and too many mediums to balance across for everyone to be satisfied. That being said, the game is more balanced now than ever before in my experience, with very few if any glaring imbalances in the way of old mag DKs or crit enabled proc sets. ZOS has done a great job of slowly, but steadily, addressing the issues patch by patch to create a more polished game.

In a way yes, but what did it take?

Blanket nerfs, lots of them.
A massive sustain nerf.
Taking a lot of fun from a class. Case in point: The old fast high damage sorcs are just shield spammy clunky bores.

But things are looking up, more communication and consideration to ideas seems to be happening, we just need to wait and see tbh.

Shield-spammy clunky bores with pets we can't stand anymore. lol

Well it was fun while it lasted.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

nope never, ie: not when some ults cost a 3rd of others, where there is no limit on certain skills being spammed, i think it will never be right

Nemesis7884

true balance is only achieved with 0 diversity

and i rather have more options and more diversity than true balance

Zordrage

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

true balance is only achieved with 0 diversity

and i rather have more options and more diversity than true balance

this...

i missed this one from my list...

Milvan

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

true balance is only achieved with 0 diversity

and i rather have more options and more diversity than true balance

Take insight my comrade.

Integral1900

Any mmo claiming perfect balance is talking porkies

Smmokkee

Way to many tank builds inside pvp. That is all.. bunch of scrubs scared to die or something.

Tank builds inside BG objective based games?? Just terrible and not fun.

Huyen

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Wardens are ridiculously overpowered from a PvP perspective (magicka or stamina based, but more so stamina), but are absolutely hot garbage from a PvE perspective (more so from a magicka perspective). It’s so imbalanced and inconsistent that it’s like, “Okay... Do I want to be a powerhouse in PvP, or do I just want to be extremely suboptimal and mediocre in PvE?” That’s literally what is the case in ESO currently regarding this class.

But, it doesn’t just stop at classes. You have terrible sustain occurring within a PvE environment, resulting in classes being forced to adapt through HA builds and all that jazz. But in PvP still have infinite sustain builds that exists. Even with the changes made. So the changes that occurred with Morrowind weren’t so much of a proper fix, but rather a bandaid fix to a bigger issue.

You went on ahead and said a few times that people’s incredible healing was at fault a few times, and thus nerfed heals a bit. Especially from a PvP perspective. Buuuuut you then introduce the Restoration Staff ultimate and vitality potions. You introduce TrollKing and sets like Earthgore. Even though you nerfed Malubeth for some odd reason. I’d rather be fight someone wearing Malubeth than Trollking anyday, and I’m sure many people would agree with me on that.

You nerfed proc-sets, because they were overperforming in PvP. And even made it so that they don’t crit in PvE nor PvP. Buuuuuut that again was another bandaid fix to an even bigger issue. As I’m pretty sure people can still burst people down with Selene and all that jazz. Skoria and what not. So n’ah. That wasn’t really the answer to things. And if it was, then you should’ve did it from only a PvP perspective. Not PvE.

And why is that? Because you keep introducing content that is supposed to be more challenging, when in fact it’s just things having higher HP and being more meat shields than anything. Case and point? VCOS. VAS. And so on. It’s not hard due to mechanics. N’ah. It’s just bothersome, because of the length of things. The fact that things are damage sponges. And that’s it.

And it’s not even so much as a CP issue, as no-CP BG proved this. Stamina builds annihilated and ran rampant, because of the obvious advantages that stamina builds have over magicka builds when CP is removed from the equation. So n’ah. It’s not even that.

So will we ever have true balance...?

...

Nope. This game will never have true balance. Will I quit this game over it not having true balance? No. Is this a quit thread? No. But what this is, is a thread to bring to the attention to many that this game will never truly be balanced. PvP? Will never be balanced. PvE? Never will be balanced. Classes? Will never be balanced. Champion points? Will never. Be. Balanced.

True balance will never be achieved, as there is one major part of the game that is outside the control of ZoS: the players. As long we are able to do the math, one build will always outshine the other ones.

Nifty2g

What exactly do you think "true balance" is going to achieve and more importantly, do you think it is a healthy goal to have?

Doctordarkspawn

ak_pvp wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Will we ever go a patch without a self righteous rant post from the OP?

As far as ‘true balance’....balance is a subjective term. There are too many variables and too many mediums to balance across for everyone to be satisfied. That being said, the game is more balanced now than ever before in my experience, with very few if any glaring imbalances in the way of old mag DKs or crit enabled proc sets. ZOS has done a great job of slowly, but steadily, addressing the issues patch by patch to create a more polished game.

In a way yes, but what did it take?

Blanket nerfs, lots of them.
A massive sustain nerf.
Taking a lot of fun from a class. Case in point: The old fast high damage sorcs are just shield spammy clunky bores.

But things are looking up, more communication and consideration to ideas seems to be happening, we just need to wait and see tbh.

Yeah, operative word of that sentance is 'seems'.

If ZOS goes ahed and lisens to us, preferibly by removing the sustain changes next quarter update, I'll go ahed and stop ragging on them and I'll be optimistic. But all signs point to, that is not what is going to happen.

Be cautiously optimistic. Be ready to be disappointed.

VaranisArano

You'll never have balance until every individual thing in this game is balanced on its own merits.

Skills and gear and classes balance differently for duels, 4v4v4 PVP, differently Battleground modes, no CP PVP and CP PVP, small groups, gankers, bombers, zerg surfers, large groups, raids, and faction stacks. Unless you break down the population into all those different groups and balance some area of the game for that exactly, you'll never have perfect balance.

And that's just PVP. Now if you bring PVE overland content, PVE solo content, PVE 4-man content and PVE 12-man content into it...

CardboardedBox

There are so many different skills, morphs, and damage styles, not to mention a little thing called "a specific players personal skill", that there will NEVER be balance.

But people sure do love to cling to their false hopes.

FrostFallFox

Stop trying to lowkey get Mag Wardens nerfed plz

The_Brosteen

It's threads like this that end up being the catalysts for unwanted change that doesn't improve anything.

Just to touch on one thing you said, you will always have people who can seemingly sustain forever in pvp. This is because good players will always find a balance between damage and sustain to get the most out of both. I guarentee, for example, if blocking gets changed yet again people will still find a way to seemingly perma block with ease.

As for disparities between pvp and pve, that simply boils down to the nature of those differnt kinds of combat experiences. If that doesn't make sense to you then you simply don't know enough about the game. Trying to balance both at once is near impossible. The answer would be separating the two balance wise. I personally think the way to easily do thst would be reworking cp and removing it from pvp all together. But no cp only pvp won't happen because most players don't want to pvp without cp, yet they complain about immortal tanks and super heals, all are issues stemming from cp. To say cp isn't the problem shows a stark lack of understanding. Other factors like specific sets affect this but there's a big difference in tankiness playing with or without cp.

The most dangerous thing for this game is when players make complaints for things they may or may not fully understand and yet make a compelling arguement.


tl;dr - be careful what you ask for on these forums because half the time zos will listen, but the changes that end up being made are not what you forsaw.

idk

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It’s pretty disturbing to see so many people being at ease with the game not being truly balanced, or even caring about the future of balancing. The whole attitude of, “Nope, who cares? Just deal with it, and carry on.” is really quite alarming.

Maybe I’m just old fashioned, and my age is really starting to show... But, it’s really sad to observe this type of mindset that people are displaying. It is if people don’t even care about the state of their game, and are just here to go along to get along. And it seems to me like the devs are more than aware of this, and thus use that as the logic to continue on doing what it is that they’ve been doing for so long. Player base was never like this, and yes. While it is true that most of those with similar views of mine have up and quit when Morrowind dropped, its just sad. Like damn... Look at how this community has fallen. Who exists nowadays that gives a damn anymore, and is outspoken to the bs that swarms about both in-game and on the forums? Nowadays you get shunned for it.

And please, don’t misunderstand. I know about imbalances regarding MMO’s and multiplayer games in general. Trust me. I get it. Ice/frost mages in WoW? Magneto/Storm/Sentinel in MvC2? Ice Climbers in SB? Yeah, I know. Balance will never truly exist theoretically. But damn it if people can’t acrively work hard to achieve it. And it’s just so crushing to see people not give a damn about it anymore. It’s sick, man. It’s really sick.

It's part of the '*** you got mine' and the whole 'ADAPT OR LEAVE' craze.

Wanting balance would require criticism of the game and holding the game accountable for the times it's outright disreguarded player feedback. And they would do that because they've indoctinated themselves into unconditional love of this game.

Personally, I dont see it happening because the designers DO NOT RESPECT OUR FEEDBACK, REGUARDLESS OF WHAT THEY SAY. WE HAVE TO FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL TO GET ANYTHING CHANGED.

This is not all that correct. Much of the "criticism" provided here in the forums is based on incorrect information to begin with.

An extreme example is the regular threads we see complaining about a skill or even a class being OP. It is either they got attacked by 10 players with 9 using that skill and upset they died or there are multiple counters to the skill being used against them but openly state the do not want to have to use a counter.

Zos has taken our advice though there is some advice many of us wish they would have taken, namely concerning the sustain changes with Morrowind, but we have adjusted and are doing ok. Yea, I would like cost reduction returned.

Ch4mpTW

idk wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

It’s pretty disturbing to see so many people being at ease with the game not being truly balanced, or even caring about the future of balancing. The whole attitude of, “Nope, who cares? Just deal with it, and carry on.” is really quite alarming.

Maybe I’m just old fashioned, and my age is really starting to show... But, it’s really sad to observe this type of mindset that people are displaying. It is if people don’t even care about the state of their game, and are just here to go along to get along. And it seems to me like the devs are more than aware of this, and thus use that as the logic to continue on doing what it is that they’ve been doing for so long. Player base was never like this, and yes. While it is true that most of those with similar views of mine have up and quit when Morrowind dropped, its just sad. Like damn... Look at how this community has fallen. Who exists nowadays that gives a damn anymore, and is outspoken to the bs that swarms about both in-game and on the forums? Nowadays you get shunned for it.

And please, don’t misunderstand. I know about imbalances regarding MMO’s and multiplayer games in general. Trust me. I get it. Ice/frost mages in WoW? Magneto/Storm/Sentinel in MvC2? Ice Climbers in SB? Yeah, I know. Balance will never truly exist theoretically. But damn it if people can’t acrively work hard to achieve it. And it’s just so crushing to see people not give a damn about it anymore. It’s sick, man. It’s really sick.

It's part of the '*** you got mine' and the whole 'ADAPT OR LEAVE' craze.

Wanting balance would require criticism of the game and holding the game accountable for the times it's outright disreguarded player feedback. And they would do that because they've indoctinated themselves into unconditional love of this game.

Personally, I dont see it happening because the designers DO NOT RESPECT OUR FEEDBACK, REGUARDLESS OF WHAT THEY SAY. WE HAVE TO FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL TO GET ANYTHING CHANGED.

This is not all that correct. Much of the "criticism" provided here in the forums is based on incorrect information to begin with.

An extreme example is the regular threads we see complaining about a skill or even a class being OP. It is either they got attacked by 10 players with 9 using that skill and upset they died or there are multiple counters to the skill being used against them but openly state the do not want to have to use a counter.

Zos has taken our advice though there is some advice many of us wish they would have taken, namely concerning the sustain changes with Morrowind, but we have adjusted and are doing ok. Yea, I would like cost reduction returned.

@idk So now, I’m curious. Would you agree or disagree that from a PvE perspective, Wardens could definitely use a myriad of buffs (specifically magicka Wardens)? Yet from a PvP perspective, Wardens need a major series of reworks and nerfs (specifically stamina Wardens)?

Because that is in my opinion a perfect example of how screwed up balance is and how much inconsistency there is. Here is a class that is extremely subpar and lacking in 1 aspect of the game, but is overperforming dramatically in another aspect. There is no middle grounds or consistency, like the other classes. It’s literally 1 extreme or the other.

Froil

True balance is a lie. True balance is a dream. True balance can never be, nor can there be any semblance of.

But in your heart of hearts you know the truth; the imbalance within the game IS the true balance.