Fix the game to make it fun for more players

ShadowMonarch

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

Fix the game ≠ fundamentally altering the game to fit one player's myopic view of how the game should be played

Perfectly stated. You play 30% of the game (PvP) but are up in arms because not everything has been built to revolve around the musical chairs of Cyrodil? PvP was never intended to be a complete option for the game; by design it’s to be used in conjunction with PvE foe the full experience.

Reason why more people PvE than PvP? Because the PvP system/builds are completely contrary to what’s used in PvE, nonsensically so. Light or medium armor in PvP? Hell no. Heavy armor is too broken right now not to use it. Everyone’s a vampire? Sure! The bonuses heavily outweigh the negatives, no reason not to. Mageblade bombers traveling in packs with VIcious Death proxy bombing entire groups and wiping them easily. Why not?!

News flash: PvP isn’t terribly exciting. I’m in a very competitive PvP guild, yet still spend the majority of my time on my mount riding across boringly dull landscapes to the next keep that looks exactly the same as the rest. Get wiped? Well
time to remount and spend the next 20 minutes running through mind numbing environments. Maybe, if I’m lucky, zoning will be “unusually long”!

At least Imperial City was innovative. It was at least a start to what Cyrodil SHOULD have been.

TL DR: Dungeons are incredibly easy to farm. You can even just run them on normal and be done in a quarter of the time, albeit with blue and not purple gear (which shouldn’t impact PvP terribly, or if non-jewelry, just improve the color). If you really wanted Amberplasm - grab 3 guild buddies, run RoM normal, and between the 4 of you you will likely get whatever pieces you need in a single run. Two max.

While pvp may be 30% of the game as you put it everyone plays it differently, I for instance rarely join a group big or small, I like to be solo and burn enemy fc's and I mainly focus on counter ganking by singling out enemy night blades, when I do join groups much like you I find the normal zerging keep to keep to be very very boring.

That is why I like pvp so much though, I have my own little unique niche that I can excel at and my class set up allows me to stay alive when zergs usually just run over each other and I can pick my battles, which is a good thing cause mag blade has had some very significant nerfs to some of its playstyles, and like you said a lot are just Zerg bombers and such.

As for a few buddies to run dungeons with I don't really have any, a prime side effect of being a solo player in a Zerg based pvp setting. Not that I don't enjoy being solo on my own most of the time, I find little join in running over sombody with a group when they have no chance.

In fact I would go as far to say I do not take pleasure in group activitys for the most part.

I do have about 5 friends that I only know cause they do the same things in cyro I do and we occasional group up to counter enemy zergs from behind or the inside but that is about it. I have talked to some of these like minded players and they have all agreed the game would be gunner if they could earn their gear from pvping which is why I brought it up here. I do know a LOT more solo players but most of them are on enemy factions and usually they agree to.

So wouldn't it be nice to give these types of players and play styles a way to earn their gear in a way they enjoy? That doesn't hurt the way other players play

Bobby_V_Rockit

ESO is primarily a PvE game though, it makes sense that gear is won via PvE. Frankly, I dont understand how you can exclusively PvP and find it entertaining after an hour of being zerged down by blues anyway

ShadowMonarch

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

ESO is primarily a PvE game though, it makes sense that gear is won via PvE. Frankly, I dont understand how you can exclusively PvP and find it entertaining after an hour of being zerged down by blues anyway

Kill zergs, avoid them, dismantle them from inside and behind. Don't try to fight a entire Zerg at its face, burn their fc's, rep walls behind them, focus their healers and back lines snipe spammers and stuff.

That's mostly how I play Atleast

Garwulf

Most of the people I played with in PVP have left. Bored with the repetitive mechanics and cheesed off with One Tamriel faction swapping. I am now guild leader of what was one of of the most effective guilds in this game... because everyone else left to greener pastures.

Psycho_Wes

*** pvp.

Huyen

Jade1986 wrote: »

When ever I see someone posting a complain saying the game shoud be changed to their likings, I just roll my eyes. Be it single player crowd, pvp, or group crowd. You come to this game, you adapt to this game, you dont make demands that it should be changed to your playstyle.

I play mostly pve because in pvp its mostly ran by permablocking tanks at this moment, with an impossible learning-curve if you dont follow the exact meta at that time. Some demands to change gameplay are valid.

Azurya

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

I should also throw in that Dueling also has no rewards. When dueling came out I stopped everything and did nothing but duel for about 8 months.

Even if you win 10000000 duels and beat players with over x2 your CP you still get nothing for it at the end of the day. No gold. No Ap. No gear. Nothing.

well, you get what you choose, like in real life, so enjoy!

Jade1986

Huyen wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

When ever I see someone posting a complain saying the game shoud be changed to their likings, I just roll my eyes. Be it single player crowd, pvp, or group crowd. You come to this game, you adapt to this game, you dont make demands that it should be changed to your playstyle.

I play mostly pve because in pvp its mostly ran by permablocking tanks at this moment, with an impossible learning-curve if you dont follow the exact meta at that time. Some demands to change gameplay are valid.

I dont play a tanky character at all in pvp, unless im, ya know, a tank. I play a 7 piece medium armor bosmer warden archer who can kill people pretty much in 1-2 shots. The learning curve is not that hard. And just because you dont want to learn, does not mean you are entitled to have everything in game. AND LETS BE HONEST, you CAN get most of the pvp gear in pve. Tamrieltradecenter.com lets you search for every piece of pvp gear out there. NONE of it is bind on pickup, whereas pve gear, is.

Noggin_the_Nog

[quote="ShadowMonarch;c-4722600"
In fact I would go as far to say I do not take pleasure in group activitys for the most part. [/quote]

Hello Shadow
After running a Templar Healer for a couple of years in Group Dungeons I understand your pain. Just too much abuse makes it no pleasure. Now I mainly solo content in PvE and have fun in <lvl50 in PvP. I love crafting.
Amberplasm and other BoP sets are hard to get but there are other alternatives which will be nearly as good.
You must have alot of AP. Why not buy motifs and sell for gold? Then buy sets from traders or have a friend craft for you.
A good solution is to find a friend who does the things you dislike.

Diversus

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Hi so I only pvp, I know one of "those" guys but hear me out.

So I HATE pve/crafting and I really HATE grinding. It makes me want to actually harm myself physically. I literally cannot stand it. Back in the days of vet levels I would just delete my characters when they got to level 50 and start new characters to enter the lowbie pvp server again. Now days I play in the No-CP campaign sothra sil. Now there are a few problems that players who only partake in pvp face. The first one is $$$$ we only get paid one time a month, about 40k gold when the campgain ends. This payout really sucks. Now why do we need money you ask? Cause we need gear, upgrading gear, buying gear ect. Which is point number 2. A large number of gear sets in this game HAVE to be grinded and farmed in PVE. I had to use 44 keys to get my skoria shoulders and they got TRAINING trait on them.... I ran ruins of malz 5 times and only got 1 peice of amberplasm with the right trait. I have quit the game before for a few short periods of time, months ect. Because I cannot gear my characters. Even if I do get gear I do not ever have enough money to get it to gold, Hell I can save my gold for 2months of pvp and only be able to gold out 1 peice of gear. Forget that if I have to use gold to buy foods or anything else.

So my big question is, How come I cannot buy all the sets for AP in pvp? It doesn't make the game unbalanced if they just cost a lot of AP then only pvpers could afford them and it would give us something to do that we enjoy rather then grinding and farming and kicking and screaming our way through pve and dungeons over and over. In all my time I have NEVER played a mmo with such a large focus on pvp and still have to pve to get almost 100% of my gear. ESO is by far the best pvp I can find in a MMORPG so it really sucks I cannot even gear a single character out cause the sets that are anywhere near optimal are out of my reach in pve.

I have been playing a magblade and nothing else for almost 2 years now, it is the only character I managed to get some what decent gear for so depsite having other characters they are all useless with no gear.

I don't normally say much but PvPers confuse me by their logic and here's why:

-PvPers complain about doing the same dungeons over and over again and it's boring

-PvPers will stand around for hours just dueling in the same spot (Yes, literally, you could watch YouTube videos of it with everyone just standing around watching each other duel.)

=========== Added this section here after re-reading the posts ===============
---- No, there should be no rewards for dueling. Come on now? Really? When you said that the first thing that came to mind was, "laziness." Login, duel, get rewarded AP. That is no effort compared to someone preparing for DLC dungeon content and trials.
---- I read all the posts here and the more I think about it the more I'm starting to realize that you seem pretty lazy. Another PvPer even outlined how you could make gold if all you did was PvP. Did you even bother to Google how you could make gold as a PvPer? I just did right now. I found YouTube videos, articles, and posts. It was interesting to read and the potential to earn millions of gold is there. You just can't be lazy. Your post sounds a lot like, "Me, me, me, me."
==========================================================================

-PvPers will spend hours in the same battleground/environment or whatever method of pvp they like with no change to the environment/area at all (that is equivalent to doing the same PvE content over and over)

-PvPers then complain not having access TO ALL the type of gear they want and should just be able to buy it using AP (As someone pointed out if a PvPer can buy dungeon gear with AP then shouldn't a PvE(er?) be able to purchase said dungeon gear with gold? (This makes dungeons pointless and a waste of time))

Why would it be fair that someone can easily grind AP and have access to some of the best PvE gear and not put in the work to get better and better gear? A new player that hits CP 160 can't just go do some of the hardest PvE content (like the DLC content in which you need to be at least 300 to even 400 CP recommended to do). They need to put in the time to acquire better gear and have to work towards the best gear.

This also includes people who can craft the 9 trait sets. Why would it be fair to them that they spent months researching all the traits but a PvPer can just buy them with AP without learning a single trait? See there is this thing that PvE people do that PvP players (at least some) really don't want to do and that is put in the amount of time and work to acquire the best gear possible.

Why would it be fair to vets that a fresh CP 160 player can just hoard their AP and automatically have access to the best gear? This doesn't make sense to me at all.

If ZOS were to ever make all SET gear available for PvPers via vendors (or the best gear for pvp) then they would need to make it so that you'd have to be cap CP level to have access to that vendor and cost a million AP per piece or even more.

So, basically, if you didn't want to start doing the DLC content at recommended CP level then you'd just have to wait longer to acquire it because you are LITERALLY cutting out the RNG that PvEers have to deal with when it comes to drops from dungeons. You are also cutting out all the farming they do for pots and food and the time it took for them to get the gear they currently have to be able to even do said content.

Lastly, not only do they need the gear, cp, pots, and food, they then need to actually learn the DLC content to be able to complete it which takes time. In PvP all you'd need to do is just save your AP for the gear. That's a pretty big difference for high rewards.

===Edit===
No not all games should be compared because each game is its own. GW2 is GW2 built on PVP. Whereas ESO is not. If you want a TRUE PvP game then please by all means play GW2 as you mentioned it.

badmojo

@Diversus

Getting group dungeon gear isnt all that difficult. Its mostly just time consuming. Unless a person decides they absolutely need to have purple jewelry or a monster helm, there is no reason to run veteran mode when farming gear. Normal dungeons are easy, very easy. The hardest dungeons on normal mode are even pretty easy if you know how to play the game. I got thrown into some DLC dungeons during the event and had no problems on sub par characters. You can be carried when farming gear, so lets not act like getting group dungeon gear is something you have to work up to.

My point is that it comes down to the activity being time consuming. We only have so many hours of life on this planet and even fewer hours to dedicate to playing ESO. So, I can not fault anyone for wanting to spend those hours doing the activites they enjoy. Since ZOS decided to put the best gear for PVP in PVE then obviously players who would rather just PVP are going to ask for a route to that gear that doesn't involve doing hours and hours of PVE.

OP said he did 5 farming runs of mazzatun which is a long dungeon. Plus he spent 44 keys trying to get the shoulders he wanted, clearly this guy has done many hours of PVE group dungeons. Its not like we come on the forums and demand a way to skip playing the game, we see how long we have to spend doing stuff we would rather not, so we suggest an alternative could be implemented. Its not like we refuse to do what is required to get the gear. We are just being vocal about not enjoying the process. Its like the people who complain about warhorn and vigor being locked behind pvp, those people still do what is required, despite PVP being something they dislike.

You mention buying gear for gold. Nobody is asking for that here. You also mention buying gear for AP would allow you to skip the RNG found in drops. I suggested the dungeon gear being put in boxes the same way we can already buy regional overland gear. For example if I wanted spinners gear right now I could go to a vendor in cyrodiil and purchase a malabal tor box and when I open it I get a random piece of blue gear from malabal tor, with a random trait. It might be a spinners piece I need in the perfect trait, it might be a piece of thunderbug gear that I don't need. It's a gamble, just like its a gamble when you kill a boss in a dungeon. They could even add a seperate box for weapons and make it cost more since weapons usually drop from the more difficult final boss of a dungeon.

I also suggested tying the boxes to achievements. I was thinking PVP ranks or something like that, but it could just as easily be tied to the achievement for completing the dungeon. We could clear the actual dungeon once and go back to farming AP to buy boxes until you have farmed the gear you need. I doubt many PVPers would be opposed to running it once, its the doing them dozens of times that bothers us. I probably ran COH 75-100 times before I got the lich resto staff I wanted for PVP, it was all I did in the game for weeks. Trust me its not laziness that created this suggestion.

Diversus

@badmojo

1) I brought up gold because the VERY FIRST thing he said was that gold was an issue and I'll quote him, "The first one is $$$$ we only get paid one time a month, about 40k gold when the campgain ends. This payout really sucks. Now why do we need money you ask? Cause we need gear, upgrading gear, buying gear ect." And I'll Quote him here too in regards to gold..

"Because I cannot gear my characters. Even if I do get gear I do not ever have enough money to get it to gold, Hell I can save my gold for 2months of pvp and only be able to gold out 1 peice of gear. Forget that if I have to use gold to buy foods or anything else."

As you can see that is directly from him. Do you see a trend here? Can you see that to him getting gear is a problem, acquiring gold is a problem, turning gear to legendary is a problem, buying food is a problem. Etc. So even if ZOS waved a magic wand and made all PVE drops accessible for PvPers he still wouldn't be satisfied because now he can't afford to turn the gear gold and then move onto another character. "Me, me, me."

And for someone who has been playing for 2 years? How would he not know how to make gold PvP'ing? Google is your friend. I don't PvP and I googled just now how to make gold as a pvper in ESO. I bet you can guess what I found...You can't get anymore lazy than not even googling on how to make gold.

2) 5 times? 44 keys? That's it? There are people who have done and spent WAY more than to get what they want. Does RNG suck? Of course but that comes with the MMO territory and people who play an MMO should know that going in.

3) Isn't grinding for AP. Still grinding? I'll quote the OP again for you,
.."So I HATE pve/crafting and I really HATE grinding"
Now, I'm confused. He hates grinding but will grind for AP? He'll also stands around dueling and wishes there would be some type of reward for winning such as AP, Gold, or even GEAR.. If you read all of his posts he did say that too and I can quote if need be. If you're just standing around dueling for hours like I know some people do they maybe they should be actually working towards better gear instead of just standing around? Again, laziness.
====EDIT found his post.. page 1, post#3====
"I should also throw in that Dueling also has no rewards. When dueling came out I stopped everything and did nothing but duel for about 8 months.

Even if you win 10000000 duels and beat players with over x2 your CP you still get nothing for it at the end of the day. No gold. No Ap. No gear. Nothing."
=======================================
He literally did NOTHING that the game offers. He dueled and ignored 99% of the games content including actual PvP battlegrounds for 8 months and he's complaining.
=======================================

3) DLC Content. People will not carry an extremely under geared person or someone who is way below CP level for content. They'll just leave. There have been complaints about people being able to get into DLC content when using the Dungeon finder tool when they are no where near ready for it. And everyone needs to pull their weight. They either kick the person or they leave. Seriously and rightfully so.

4) You can't just run normal. Some gear only drops in Vet content. I'm sure you know this. So would it be fair that a person just needed to PvP in order to have access to all SET gear as the OP stated? Yes, he said ALL SETS. That would include undaunted pieces which as you know drops in Vet.

5) As for time any time spent playing a game is nonproductive. The people with the best gear spent the time getting it. They may get lucky with a few pieces but we all have those items that seem to elude us and never want to drop. And guess what? If ZOS gave PvPers a chance to get the gear from dungeons in boxes the next thing they'd complain about is drop rates and they aren't getting what they want from the boxes. It would never end.

In fact the OP even referenced GW2 stating that when you join in PvP you get to pick your gear and that is how ZOS should do it.. come on now..that alone tells you he wants it given to him when you're referencing GW2. And for the record I played GW2.

badmojo

@Diversus

It's a long complained about issue that doing PVP gets you barely any gold compared to PVE. Sure, there are ways to make gold by turning your AP into gold, but there's also reasons to keep your AP to purchase things you might need.

I only mentioned gold because you made a statement about if we can buy it with AP, why not let players buy it with gold. That's certainly not a good thing for this game. AP cannot be traded between players, AP isn't exactly easy to farm in large quantities, it takes time to accumulate, but it just so happens that a lot of people enjoy the activities that gain AP. If we could buy RNG boxes with gold, a player could just give another player a billion gold and tell them to go gear up. They would then go and buy as many boxes as required to gear up. That can not happen with AP. AP is a representation of time spent doing PVP activities, gold requires no time sink.

He ran mazzatun 5 times and got 1/5th of what he needs for that set. He spent 44 keys to get the shoulders he needed. These were just examples of him putting in the time to get the rewards. This was not supposed to be a record of his entire PVE experience. I have no idea how much he has done in total. Point was he put in some effort to go through the process.

Is grinding for AP still grinding? Grinding is a very subjective word. People who love to run group dungeons probably don't see their activities as a grind. Just like people who love to PVP don't see it as a grind. Grinding usually implies doing something as a means to an end. In this case the AP gained by the OP is just a byproduct of doing something he loves and would be doing anyway. Grinding to him would be running Mazzatun another 20 times.

Let's pretend doing 20 more runs of Mazzatun will get him the other 4 pieces of his set. Let's also pretend running it 20 more times would take him 20 hours. If the AP price to purchase enough boxes to get the other 4 items took him 40 hours, would that make it better? Spending 20 hours in PVE dungeons, or 40 hours in PVP but getting the same results. Would any amount of PVP qualify to get dungeon gear in your mind?

I do not support his desires for rewards from dueling. I won't bother commenting on any of that.

I've carried players in DLC content, normal dungeons at least. You can't really carry people in veteran DLC dungeons because it's just not possible, everyone needs to pull their weight in those. But, like I said before, you don't need to do veteran to farm a lot of the gear. The golden vendor in cyrodiil sells the monster helms and shoulders, they also sell gold quality rings and necklaces. There's also some builds that don't include monster sets. In this case the OP mentioned Skoria monster set, I bet he could get carried through vet city of ash. Also, having a specific monster set isn't going to make or break your build, so again, there is no need to farm gear in veteran mode aside from wanting the purple jewelry, which isn't even a huge buff.

I have no doubt people would inevitably complain about the drop rate if boxes were introduced. Just like people complain(myself included) about drop rates in dungeons. It's a legitimate complaint to be honest, I'm not sure what ZOS can do about it, or even if they should do anything. But, preventing PVP players an avenue for getting gear to avoid future complaints about drop rate seems like a silly reason to dismiss it.

I have never played GW2. But the system he explained intrigues me as a PVPer. It seems very similar to what happens on the PTS, you get to pick and choose from most of the best gear in the game. I wouldn't want that system applied to the entire game, but I wouldn't mind if they added a separate PVP campaign with that system. Go all the way with it, give everyone every ability fully leveled and 690 champion points. Make it an even playing field, where skill trumps time investment. But, like I said, make it optional for just one type of PVP campaign.

SmellyUnlimited

Well, unfortunately you don’t get something for nothing, not in a game or anywhere. You want PvE gear, you PvE. Do you expect ZOS to cater to every player that wants something but not having to work for it?

What if all I liked to do was run through IC sewers all day. Why shouldn’t I get PvP and PvE gear? I mean can’t I just use Tel Var stones to get anything I want!? What do you mean that’s not how the game is designed. I WANT it.

Not enjoying something doesn’t mean the company is obliged to change their model to meet your enjoyment. Just as PvE players don’t get AP, you don’t get to get the gear that requires PvE. But you have the option of doing so. I run a lot of trials, but how many of those do i ever get something I need? Maybe 5%. I enjoy running those more than I do PvP, so I should be able to get Ravager and Wizards Riposte from there because I WANT to.

ShadowMonarch

Another player that takes suggestions on how to open the game up to more players as a personal attack lol. If you cannot handle a concept designed to simply make the game more enjoyable for more players without hurting anybody then why are you here? It's not about being lazy it's about making the game more enjoyable for everyone without hurting any current playstyles or players.

MaxwellC

@ShadowMonarch
Imma re-post something I dredged up from last year (a post I made regarding PvP and how to make it more rewarding). Maybe you'll like it; I'll tag you in it momentarily.