Viper is trash...but is it really?

VirtualElizabeth

So I was reading over another thread which kept referencing the viper set as trash. When I look at the set, it really doesn't seem all that bad. Sure the current darling of the streamers is weapon damage over crit damage (which I am sure there is some explanation I clueless about when it comes to crit vs weap damage. But is Viper really trash now and why?

glavius

Viper is awesome. But not because of the crit

DHale

Works just fine. I never relied on it.

ToRelax

No, it's still very powerful.

scipionumatia

its kinda like a 2k/sec dot that's always up. applies pressure, just cant crit anymore. not sure if it can be purged or not but I have thought of running it on a dk Dot pvp build but never put it to fruition

Valderis

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373744/max-poison-build

Build thread talking about Viper.

Ask yourself "where is my damage coming from?"

For example, Stamina builds in PVE gain the majority of their damage from Endless Hail, Heavy Attack, Caltrops (typical parses have these 3 at the top of their dps breakdown).

Penetration, Crit Rating (%), Weapon Damage, Stamina regen, Stamina Resource (not necessarily in that order) matter to Stamina Builds.

Consider Mephala's 2-set, Viper and Sheer Venom. Or Morang Tong for example.

I appreciate when people go against the meta. Creativity thrives there..

lynog85

Garbage set

VirtualElizabeth

Thanks all for your comments. I was talking to someone over the weekend who was putting together a PVP build around Viper and I mentioned it was not the darling of the masses it was once. The only reason I thought it that this was the case (besides the nerf) was the set's emphasis on crit.

I am starting to wonder if "nerfs" are like a freakin' Scarlet letter vs the actual set now no longer being viable. ZOS changes things and folks run away screaming LOL.

@Valderis You mentioned PVE, would you say Viper is more in line with PVE builds then PVP now?

Ragnarock41

If you want burst or sustained dps?
Even for a stamDk Its not really the best thing to use tho. Its okay ish. Not really amazing. I got encountered a few viper users after the nerf but they all ended up lying dead under my boots. Boots of fury. Heheh.

VirtualElizabeth

lynog85 wrote: »

Garbage set

Why?

lynog85

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

Garbage set

Why?

Dot is weak as ***. So many better sets about now.

NyassaV

On a stam DK it can work cuz more poison dot=more pressure but for general use it's pretty bad

raasdal

Still strong, but not AS strong as before. It has fallen out of meta, because you can no longer crutch Viper+Selene and stuff like that, for instant burst damage. 90% of the playerbase have no taste or appreciation for DoTs, and so here we are.

The only nerfs Viper have suffered, are Crit removal (along with all the rest) and a conversion from instant front-loaded DPS, to a DoT. That is enough for many to switch to more burst-focused sets, which in current meta means raw WD sets like Legion, Fury etc.

CatchMeTrolling

A lot of people in the community underestimate dots and rather go with burst , it’s one of the main reasons the set was dropped.

VirtualElizabeth

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

A lot of people in the community underestimate dots and rather go with burst , it’s one of the main reasons the set was dropped.

I love DOT builds like with my MagTemplar. But I get how people love the insta kill scenario of burst builds.

VaranisArano

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

So I was reading over another thread which kept referencing the viper set as trash. When I look at the set, it really doesn't seem all that bad. Sure the current darling of the streamers is weapon damage over crit damage (which I am sure there is some explanation I clueless about when it comes to crit vs weap damage. But is Viper really trash now and why?

So Viper is trash compared to how it used to be in PVP.

Viper was one of the overperforming proc sets back when it used to do all its damage at once. A 6k instant poison proc? Yes, please! It was all the rage in PVP and especially Battlegrounds, so much so that ZOS took a look at it and...

Now Viper does the same damage, 6K, but over 4 second. This means that its still perfectly effective for PVE content, but the damage can be mitigated much easier in PVP with Purge or heals.

In PVP, its all about that burst damage, so Viper has largely fallen out of favor, hence it being called "trash". Its still fine in PVE, though there are better DPS sets for medium armor. In PVP, most people will go for sets that offer great damage outright unless they specifically want to build to make the poison DOTs effective.

Morvane

still awesome in non-cp pvp
very nerfed for cp-pvp

not suitable for pve.

SirAndy

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

So I was reading over another thread which kept referencing the viper set as trash.

That's what you get for listening to the min/max crowd.

You do realize that every time something drops from BiS to 0.01% less good than the next BiS it will be deemed "useless" and "trash".

In reality, BiS is about fractions of a percent in very controlled environments, usually aimed at group content where all group and self buffs have to be applied to support the BiS numbers.

Valderis

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

Thanks all for your comments. I was talking to someone over the weekend who was putting together a PVP build around Viper and I mentioned it was not the darling of the masses it was once. The only reason I thought it that this was the case (besides the nerf) was the set's emphasis on crit.

I am starting to wonder if "nerfs" are like a freakin' Scarlet letter vs the actual set now no longer being viable. ZOS changes things and folks run away screaming LOL.

@Valderis You mentioned PVE, would you say Viper is more in line with PVE builds then PVP now?

The set gives Crit x2 and Stam x1 bonuses, and the 5 bonus is a DOT, so that would be in line with PvE. No reason why you couldn't use it in PvP either. Consider the Infector and Widowmaker sets as well.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sets

I mentioned PVE parses because every Stamina build is getting about 40-50% from Weapon (heavy) attacks/Abilities and the rest come from their Class, Sets, etc.

Toast_STS

Valderis wrote: »

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

Thanks all for your comments. I was talking to someone over the weekend who was putting together a PVP build around Viper and I mentioned it was not the darling of the masses it was once. The only reason I thought it that this was the case (besides the nerf) was the set's emphasis on crit.

I am starting to wonder if "nerfs" are like a freakin' Scarlet letter vs the actual set now no longer being viable. ZOS changes things and folks run away screaming LOL.

@Valderis You mentioned PVE, would you say Viper is more in line with PVE builds then PVP now?

The set gives Crit x2 and Stam x1 bonuses, and the 5 bonus is a DOT, so that would be in line with PvE. No reason why you couldn't use it in PvP either. Consider the Infector and Widowmaker sets as well.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sets

I mentioned PVE parses because every Stamina build is getting about 40-50% from Weapon (heavy) attacks/Abilities and the rest come from their Class, Sets, etc.

Viper is fine, I use it on my sDK in PvP sometimes. Infector and widowmaker can miss completely so I wouldn't recommend them. Assassins Guile is where it's at if your looking to relive the proc set glory days.

Jjitsuboy98

Viper is like 8600 tool tip damage on my warden. Plus with a two hand axe and double dot poisons it puts alot of pressure on people when you are continually spamming sub assault.

lazerlaz

Skoria, assassins guile, viper, dual axes, double dot poisons, rendering slashes, blade cloak.

You're welcome.

I main that build on one of my Nightblades and love it since day one of CWC.

Back bar 2h obvi.

Izaki

raasdal wrote: »

Still strong, but not AS strong as before. It has fallen out of meta, because you can no longer crutch Viper+Selene and stuff like that, for instant burst damage. 90% of the playerbase have no taste or appreciation for DoTs, and so here we are.

The only nerfs Viper have suffered, are Crit removal (along with all the rest) and a conversion from instant front-loaded DPS, to a DoT. That is enough for many to switch to more burst-focused sets, which in current meta means raw WD sets like Legion, Fury etc.

These burst focused sets you talk about also buff your DoT damage. And your healing.

Trashs1

lazerlaz wrote: »

Skoria, assassins guile, viper, dual axes, double dot poisons, rendering slashes, blade cloak.

You're welcome.

I main that build on one of my Nightblades and love it since day one of CWC.

Back bar 2h obvi.

dual axes suck because u refresh the existing bleed to often.

if u use this go rather axe mainhand and sword or dagger off hand

Koensol

Sheer venom > Viper imo. Mostly because of the amazing 2, 3 and 4 pc bonusses. The dot pressure is actually quite nice when you proc it together with poison inject and double dot poison. Viper is about the same dmg output, but requires you to be in melee range. It's a matter of playstyle really.

Only reason I would run viper over sheer venom is because sheer venom is STILL BUGGED!! and pulls you out of cloak when you proc it on volatile armor at range.

Morvane

Koensol wrote: »

Sheer venom > Viper imo. Mostly because of the amazing 2, 3 and 4 pc bonusses. The dot pressure is actually quite nice when you proc it together with poison inject and double dot poison. Viper is about the same dmg output, but requires you to be in melee range. It's a matter of playstyle really.

Only reason I would run viper over sheer venom is because sheer venom is STILL BUGGED!! and pulls you out of cloak when you proc it on volatile armor at range.

not true. sherr Venom proc only on execute in 6 sec and viper from any ability from start every 4 sec

RajinPVP

Only reason i would not run this pve is the fact that it would not do any crits.. so whatever tooltip its says in there is what you get which for me is pretty low... same reason on pvp and its not instant damage no longer. So you are right ! It got nerfed to the ground.. from usefull to useless coz you know... zos.

Koensol

Morvane wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sheer venom > Viper imo. Mostly because of the amazing 2, 3 and 4 pc bonusses. The dot pressure is actually quite nice when you proc it together with poison inject and double dot poison. Viper is about the same dmg output, but requires you to be in melee range. It's a matter of playstyle really.

Only reason I would run viper over sheer venom is because sheer venom is STILL BUGGED!! and pulls you out of cloak when you proc it on volatile armor at range.

not true. sherr Venom proc only on execute in 6 sec and viper from any ability from start every 4 sec

Sheer venom procs from poison injections dot ticks. I.e. very easy to use. Trust me I have used this set a lot.

Tigeracer

Koensol wrote: »

Morvane wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sheer venom > Viper imo. Mostly because of the amazing 2, 3 and 4 pc bonusses. The dot pressure is actually quite nice when you proc it together with poison inject and double dot poison. Viper is about the same dmg output, but requires you to be in melee range. It's a matter of playstyle really.

Only reason I would run viper over sheer venom is because sheer venom is STILL BUGGED!! and pulls you out of cloak when you proc it on volatile armor at range.

not true. sherr Venom proc only on execute in 6 sec and viper from any ability from start every 4 sec

Sheer venom procs from poison injections dot ticks. I.e. very easy to use. Trust me I have used this set a lot.

Just to clarify, sheer venom procs off the dot from poison injection, so if you use PI > bar swap, you won’t get the sheer venom proc. This is of course if you only have sheer venom on your bow bar.
You can however, bow bar another set and use sheer venom 2h or dw and do the same thing.

Sheer venom > viper for me too. But I don’t think viper is useless.

Trashs1

Koensol wrote: »

Morvane wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sheer venom > Viper imo. Mostly because of the amazing 2, 3 and 4 pc bonusses. The dot pressure is actually quite nice when you proc it together with poison inject and double dot poison. Viper is about the same dmg output, but requires you to be in melee range. It's a matter of playstyle really.

Only reason I would run viper over sheer venom is because sheer venom is STILL BUGGED!! and pulls you out of cloak when you proc it on volatile armor at range.

not true. sherr Venom proc only on execute in 6 sec and viper from any ability from start every 4 sec

Sheer venom procs from poison injections dot ticks. I.e. very easy to use. Trust me I have used this set a lot.

thats quite interesting. can u backbar that set and it will proc on barswap from poison arrow?

Tigeracer

Read my post, directly above yours.