Tanking as DW/2H. Why is this a problem?

MartinXKid

Taunt and hold Right-Click

That is what the majority of players in PUG tend to imagine all tanks to be. Have a shield, taunt, hold shield up and ... that's it...
How is it that players have such a problem to see successful tanks w/o shields?
I personally run my tank as a highly sustainable DW/2H with Inner Beast as my taunt, 30k+ resistance Heavy armor (which is the hard cap) and 35k+ HP. So sustainable, I can whip some side DPS when I don't need to keep my Right-Click up (just about 6-7k DPS). And this makes my build fun while still completely achieving my role of Tank (Taunt Boss and mobs out of the team and Debuff them).
If we we're playing another MMO such as WoW, I'd get that the only way to tank is to have a tank speced class but even they don't just pop dmg mitigation abilities or debuffs on targets.

I'm I wrong to imagine myself a fun way to play ESO? I've played ESO since it's Alpha and if there is one thing I've learned this MMO to be unique is that specific roles aren't necessary. Depending certain bosses, you can have a full team of heavy DPS all with support heals and abilities if possible and this is what makes ESO fun. No necessary and specific builds to follow. I know it cause this is what The Elder Scrolls is all about: play as whoever you want, whatever you want and however you want.

What are your thoughts on this?

paulsimonps

Just know this, if you are doing a Dungeon Finder Group. People do not care about your fun, they do not care about how you want to play. They expect a certain type of tank and if they don't get it then they will most likely vote to kick you. A tank without an Sword&Shield or Ice Staff is a prime candidate for kicking. So yea, the devs vision is play how you want, but that mean nothing in the eyes of the players that chase or follow meta. This is the internet, people are generally selfish A holes.

Curragraigue

Play how you want with your friends. Join a group using group finder and you are electing to do one of three roles to support your group. Your group expects you to taunt, debuff boss, buff group, not die and position the boss and mobs for maximum DPS.

The reason tanks use sword and board is both the taunt debuff and the defensive passives and skills in the tree. The fact is you are suboptimal as a tank not running sword and board.

If you are not debuffing the boss or buffing your group you are doing a disservice to your group and they will not appreciate it. While it is fun to help with damage as a tank that should always be secondary to your role as tank. When it is a normal dungeon people probably won't care. For a non-DLC dungeon people may or may not complain. For a Vet DLC Dungeon or Trial people will expect you to run sword and board and to know what you are doing as a tank.

TLDR play as you want with friends and normal dungeons only.

PS cap on resistance is around 32,500 from memory.

Magdalina

Well reason 1(the potato one) for kicking/complaining would be people just freak out because they have no way to know you actually have any taunt whatsoever and might feel you're just one of those dps who queued as a tank for faster queue times.

Reason 2, the actually legit one, is you're not providingh a very very VERY good debuff(although for magicka builds Drain will provide the same debuff if the healer is using it - which they should - but for stamina there's no other source that I know of) and you're also missing out on a lot of very good tanking passives. Which sure you can get by without but there are certain fights in, say, vet dlc dungeons(not even talking trials) where this might be an issue. It'd definitely be substantially harder to tank those without s&b and I would not want a tank without it there.

Also, let's clear one thing on the whole "play how you want" mantra. No matter what Zenimax advertised it as(don't believe everything you hear as an ad), while you can absolutely play how you want on your own - ESO open world really lets you get by with almost any playstyle - this doesn't, and cannot, refer to group activities. Because once there's more than one player, there's more than one "how I want", and who's to say your "play how I want" is more important than others' "play how I want"? It doesn't make group content bad, it simply means you gotta find compromises - or people who share your opinion. You can absolutely find a guild/group of like minded people and do dungeons for fun with them, nothing wrong with that long as everyone's enjoying it.

Good luck

Edit: Forgot about NB stuff for armor debuff. Guess there's that.

tommalmm

If you're supplying major fracture/major breach (are you playing nightblade? it's super easy without sword and board), I don't care, as long as you do your job. I prefer sword and board on my nightblade though, then I can put more points into, say, magicka, and still do 10k DPS while tanking and having fun.

If you're not supplying these two debuffs... Both stamina and magicka DDs are loosing much more on the penetration alone than the 6-7k. Well, unless the group sucks, then go ahead, put on full medium armor and carry them through the dungeon.

LeagueTroll

Why would make your own life hard

SoLooney

because your set up is a perfect example of a dps queueing as a fake tank. those ppl also tend to kite the boss around so dots dont do diddly squat and makes completing a dungeon a pain.

Drakkdjinn

paulsimonps wrote: »

Just know this, if you are doing a Dungeon Finder Group. People do not care about your fun, they do not care about how you want to play. They expect a certain type of tank and if they don't get it then they will most likely vote to kick you. A tank without an Sword&Shield or Ice Staff is a prime candidate for kicking. So yea, the devs vision is play how you want, but that mean nothing in the eyes of the players that chase or follow meta. This is the internet, people are generally selfish A holes.

Know what else is more selfish? Wasting three other people's time b/c you queued up as a role you don't understand or refuse to follow for the sake of immersion/yolo/ERP/play-as-I-want/etc.

VaranisArano

For me, the bare minimum that I expect from a tank is that you are holding boss aggro with a taunt. On top of that, if you hold the boss reasonably still and don't die, I will call you a perfectly decent tank. (To be a good tank, you need some group buffs, boss debuffs, and crowd control on top of all that).

It sounds like you can manage to be a decent tank for the content you run in, so I'd be happy to run with your tank.

However...
Not all content is "play as you want."

• Overland PVE: play as you want, easier with CP and a good rotation. New players without CP, without a rotation, or the experience to make their build work can easily struggle on harder fights such as in the Main Quest.
• Normal Group Dungeons: play as you want, but your group members might be carrying you. This'll be much nicer once low levels aren't forced en masse into DLC dungeons.
• Veteran Group Dungeons: Play as you want, but you'd better hold up your end of things or expect to get kicked. Surprisingly, there's still an awful lot of room for variety at this point, even in Veteran Dungeons, though by that point its becoming obvious that some build choices are more optimal than others. Non-optimal builds and even non-remotely-optimal builds can still complete content, although its noticeably harder.
• Trials: play as you want, but given that 11 other people are playing with you in a coordinated group effort, the reality is that you are playing more or less what they agreed to play with, build wise. For Leaderboard runs, this is stricter, but even for casual runs, you'll need to make sure your group is okay with what you bring. Can you tank trials with your sorc? Sure! Just make sure your group agreed to it and you can actually do it. But for the most part, trials groups are going to stick with the "meta" builds simply because its a group effort from 12 people. Why make it harder than it needs to be?

I don't think I'm saying anything that players don't already know. "Play as you want" is technically possible in all content, at least in the sense that nothing is actually stopping you or that player skill can compensate for a bad build. However, "play as you want" becomes steadily less desirable as the content gets harder, the margins of error get smaller, and the number of players depending on you increases.

raj72616a

you are missing out a set bonus if your main bar is 2H (can't use 5piece plus 5pecies plus 2piece monster set)

you could be missing major fracture, major breach, and minor maim on mobs, as well as minor heroism on yourself

you are missing the block cost reduction and blocked damage bonus from shield passive

6~7k dps (single target or aoe?) isn't helpful if you cannot solve the above issues.

Kolache

I've tanked a lot of PUGs with varying levels of survivability, DPS, buffs/debuffs, etc... TBH people just seem happy to have someone hold agro in place when possible and not die. That's about it. Easy enough to do on your own in most fights/veteran dungeons.

Hrogun

paulsimonps wrote: »

that mean nothing in the eyes of the players that chase or follow meta. (...) people are generally selfish A holes.

Funny you say that, I've more often encountered people with "unique" builds, like a heal/tank that could not heal or tank properly but was still ordering people around and didn't care, because they were selfish A holes, then anything else.

paulsimonps

Sashaa wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

that mean nothing in the eyes of the players that chase or follow meta. (...) people are generally selfish A holes.

Funny you say that, I've more often encountered people with "unique" builds, like a heal/tank that could not heal or tank properly but was still ordering people around and didn't care, because they were selfish A holes, then anything else.

There are all kinds we humans are just bad in general

Hrogun

Well, I will agree on that .

LadyNalcarya

Well people are going to be biased even if your unusual build actually works, because there's many fake tanks who kite stuff around (making dds job very difficult) and take a lot of damage (making healer's job very difficult).The sad truth is, most of unique builds dont work (not saying that your doesnt), so people tend to prefer more 'classic' approach.

Sixty5

Honestly the issue that I can see here is that you aren't really doing any job properly.

Yes you might keep the boss taunted and standing still, and sure you can throw out a little bit of DPS as well.

The problem is that you aren't applying the debuffs to the boss that make fights easier for the group, and you aren't providing a substantial amount of damage either.

Sword and Board is by far the best choice for tanking, given that it gives you survivability, Armour and Magic Resist debuffs on your taunt, as well as easy access to minor maim in order to mitigate boss damage.

I mean my tank is set up for pure group damage utility with Torugs pact and Master Architect. Spamming Shield Wall for the major slayer to my two DPS's and removing 8k from enemy resistances on my own really speeds up fights.

Vaoh

It works all around.

If you’re a healer people expect you to heal and support.
If you’re a DPS people expect you to kill stuff quickly.
If you’re a tank people expect you to hold aggro of the boss+adds and buff group DPS.

Is that wrong? Depends entirely on the content tbh. People shouldn’t care so much in Normal dungeons, but if you can’t even complete your role then expect to get kicked from most Vet dungeon groups. Having the correct weapons can be a crucial part of playing your role at least in the eyes of your group.

MehrunesFlagon

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Well people are going to be biased even if your unusual build actually works, because there's many fake tanks who kite stuff around (making dds job very difficult) and take a lot of damage (making healer's job very difficult).The sad truth is, most of unique builds dont work (not saying that your doesnt), so people tend to prefer more 'classic' approach.

even crappy real tanks do that ***.

terrordactyl1971

A CP413 tank joined my group today using a bow, ***

Sigtric

Play how you want is fine right up until it makes other people's experience tough. If you can do the job with that set up, fine, but the truth is joining randoms and doing that is probably not the best idea.

I can tank a lot of vet content on my destro/destro light armor magDK if I have to. Done it quite a bit with people I play with regularly. Doesn't mean I should queue for random as a tank.

Integral1900

All six of my alts can tank to some extent, I realy like building tough dps, all sorts of combinations that can sit at 20 to 30k damage and still shrug of almost anything in normal and dlc dungeons. Only one has a sheild and sword. Never been kicked and the whining about two handed and lightning staffs stops when I equal the dps, throw out more healing than the healer and debuff the target into the bargain. God I love baharas curse it has its limits but in terms of balanced effect it’s a realy solid set. There are more potent tanking sets but few that are as user friendly.

Only thing I change in vet is to swap out the dps set for a second tanking/support set. Pull your weight and no one has any right to criticise your choice of build. If more players enjoyed tanking the dungeon pug system wouldn’t be as *** eyed as it is now.

SupremeRissole

Id love to see this setup tank properley HM Earthgore in vBloodroot Forge lol you need that damage mitigation from s&b.
I know you probabably arent intending on doing this as it hasnt been mentioned but what im getting at is dont queue for a random vet in case you get a DLC.

Nephimana

I agree with what a lot of people have said. People when joining random dungeons don't really care about you, they want a healer that heals them while standing in red and somehow heal them through a 30k oneshot. They want dps to be 300+cp or instantly kicked and doing 25k+dps or they'll spam the vote to kick.
They also want a tank that optimizes their dps with major fracture and breach which comes very reliably from sword and shield.
Its just how it is unfortunately.

FrancisCrawford

My thoughts are that everybody should introduce themselves at the beginning of a PUG. Say "Hello". Also provide any information you think they need or want them to have, such as:

• "I need the quest" (I've said that many times)
• "I've never done this dungeon on any character, but I've watched videos" (me, once, recently for CoA 2 -- they decided to deal with it rather than get another healer)
• "I've never done this dungeon or even watched a video" (me, before the 4-newb RoM run I've described in other threads)
• "All the heals I have on this character are Mutagen and Healing Springs. But I do know this dungeon pretty well." (me, in the near future, if I decide to queue my Level 20ish magicka DK as a healer for random normals)

zaria

Integral1900 wrote: »

All six of my alts can tank to some extent, I realy like building tough dps, all sorts of combinations that can sit at 20 to 30k damage and still shrug of almost anything in normal and dlc dungeons. Only one has a sheild and sword. Never been kicked and the whining about two handed and lightning staffs stops when I equal the dps, throw out more healing than the healer and debuff the target into the bargain. God I love baharas curse it has its limits but in terms of balanced effect it’s a realy solid set. There are more potent tanking sets but few that are as user friendly.

Only thing I change in vet is to swap out the dps set for a second tanking/support set. Pull your weight and no one has any right to criticise your choice of build. If more players enjoyed tanking the dungeon pug system wouldn’t be as *** eyed as it is now.

This, now watch some Emphatic Static https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbRLey26i3alNB9_1N0V98A
Ask group to hold on to your tail, yes its require an Khajiit or argonian for the tail and an non horrible group for an fun run.
(you need decent AoE and an healer with healing staff most of the time)

VaranisArano

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

My thoughts are that everybody should introduce themselves at the beginning of a PUG. Say "Hello". Also provide any information you think they need or want them to have, such as:

• "I need the quest" (I've said that many times)
• "I've never done this dungeon on any character, but I've watched videos" (me, once, recently for CoA 2 -- they decided to deal with it rather than get another healer)
• "I've never done this dungeon or even watched a video" (me, before the 4-newb RoM run I've described in other threads)
• "All the heals I have on this character are Mutagen and Healing Springs. But I do know this dungeon pretty well." (me, in the near future, if I decide to queue my Level 20ish magicka DK as a healer for random normals)

Throw Healing Springs, Mutagen and Igneous Shields and you'll waltz through nearly every normal dungeon, except maybe the normal DLC dungeons on your MagDK.

deathcoyrwb17_ESO

Don't have any issue if the tank wants to pull an unorthodox build, most vdungeons are easy anyways.

However on harder content like vtrials, vdlc, vdsa etc, pls don't be a ***. I had tanks running dw, bow, 2h on such content, its beyond idiotic. Needless to say it wasn't a fun run and probably one of the longest tortures in gaming. It doesn't help that usually most of these types of tanks are selfish, prideful and arrogant players so any friendly advice is basically an attack on them. Please, for godsake, there is place and time for everything. Don't make your entire party suffer just because you think your original build is superior.

xaraan

I'm not a fan of the "play how you want" mantra. I think too many players take that a little too far and get ridiculous in what they want it to mean. Even in single player ES games, there are still things you need to do in a build to be useful. But that's not what this is about, so tanking....

If you are talking about normal mode 4 man dungeons that aren't the newst content, then no big deal, that's pretty easy stuff. But if you are talking doing vet, HM, especially newer dungeons, you gotta be a bit more serious. But just to look at what you are giving up:

Let's see - 30K isn't quite cap, it's a little under (not a huge deal, but worth putting out there, I believe it's more like 32) and being at armor cap does not equal the mitigation that being there AND blocking with a shield (plus passives and some active skill effects). This means that even if you are staying alive doing what you are doing now, you are making the healer work harder to keep you up in some situations, or keep you from being in dangerous territory). Which also means they might be worrying more about the 'tankiest' person in the group than they are about the glass cannons.

Also, if you are using Inner Rage exclusively, you may be costing the team more damage than you are contributing yourself. (IF your team has good DPS that is). Compare Inner Rage, which does nothing but taunt, to Pierce Armor - which hits for a 5Kish debuff to armor/sr to target with usually an infused (maybe even torug's pact) crusher enchant adding another 2-3k pen on top of that. So having all your targets have 8k pen on them will probably allow good dps to do more damage than you would be able to contribute in a heavy armor build that is hopefully busy at least doing the minimum tanking job in addition to whatever else. And if you are running some ulti to give you damage instead of something like warhorn, then again you are probably costing your dps considerable damage buffs in order to do your little bit of extra dps.

On top of that, if you decide to say only taunt the boss and a couple big mobs, or in a trash pull, you just taunt the biggest threats and let the rest do their thing... Sometimes this is inevitable, you can't always get everything controlled just how you want, but if the reason for that happening is because you want to just do some damage and let half the mobs chase the glass cannons, then again, you are probably going to cost the group more dps than you can do, plus frustrate the players.

So to me, it sounds like you just want to play how you want at the expense of your teams performance and frustration. That being said, this is fine if your team is fine with it. If we were running some of the old school 4 man dungeons and I knew you would at least hold aggro and all, i'd deal with it. But know that I'd be thinking you are being less useful than you could be.

If you want to do more than "just tank" in some of the easier dungeons, I've found that running as a tank/healer build can be more useful to the team b/c you can have 3 dps. This is a ton stronger, group wise, than just having a guy in heavy armor trying to add some dps in the middle of his tanking.

One last thing: if you think tanking is taunt/hold right button, you probably shouldn't be a tank. Maybe go DPS. Because every time I tank, my team knows all mobs will be getting pulled in together, talons in place, taunted with debuffs, everyone will be getting constantly shielded as the fight goes on, extra heals will be going out from me to help, in addition to specific needs like interrupts, and the healer almost never has to worry about healing me outside of a major damage boss slap when they might top me off after I've healed myself.

FakeFox

With a DW/2H setup, how do you get...
...major resistance debuffs?
...minor heroism for more warhorns?
...minor maim for less incoming damage on the group?
...blockade of storms for more off balance and minor vulnerability?
...etc, etc, etc

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not against playing non meta builds. But you simply have to admit, that they are less efficient and you have to go out of your way to achieve the same outcome, if possible at all. You may gain 5k DPS in comparison to a regular tank, but you probably loose the same or more on your DDs. Also most of those builds only work up to a certain difficulty, usually that ends somewhere in DLC dungeons. So the majority of content where you may gain advantages by playing a more offensive tank build and doing some DPS can just be tanked by a DD with a taunt on backbar, doing 90% of there usual DPS and just blocking or dodging a heavy now and then.
To end on a positive note though: Play whatever you want as long as it works and is fun, but just don't expect it to be better or people to appreciate it.

clocksstoppe

FakeFox wrote: »

With a DW/2H setup, how do you get...
...major resistance debuffs?
...minor heroism for more warhorns?
...minor maim for less incoming damage on the group?
...blockade of storms for more off balance and minor vulnerability?
...etc, etc, etc

That's not your problem.

Dedricus

clocksstoppe wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

With a DW/2H setup, how do you get...
...major resistance debuffs?
...minor heroism for more warhorns?
...minor maim for less incoming damage on the group?
...blockade of storms for more off balance and minor vulnerability?
...etc, etc, etc

That's not your problem.

It kind of is. You could argue the fundamentals for tanking is providing most of those buffs/debuffs. The group loses out on a good chunk of dps as a result.