Any bans planned for the Felms VAS exploit?

Nifty2g

HatchetHaro wrote: »

It is much less of an exploit and much more of a clever use of game mechanics. Line-of-sight is a core mechanic in raiding and score pushing, used to stack enemies for a fast AOE burn, and that is the same technique used to glitch out Felms.

Rumors have it that the developers already knew of this and had even responded, telling the guild responsible, as far as I know, that they were fine clearing vAS that way. (Take that with a mine's worth of salt, though; please tell me if I'm wrong.)

In any case, I believe that the absolute most ZOS should do would be to remove the scores where Felms was glitched from the leaderboards. Seriously, that's about it. I can not, in any moral view, say that any of the raiders using that glitch should be punished.

More importantly, ZOS should just fix the damn thing; they've known about it for a long time, so if they did not acknowledge it as an offense and did not fix it during this entire time, it's their fault that raiders would abuse that mechanic.

Pretty sure ZOS said if it feels like it's an exploit it is an exploit. Not only that but they've already said it's an exploit. Go on and record a video of yourself beating the trial with your group doing this and see what happens.

If you think that exploiting the boss so you're essentially doing +1 and not +2 is a clever use of mechanics, you're going to be in for a surprise.

For anyone that doesn't know what is going on you can make Felms stand right ontop of Olms so he stands in one spot and does nothing else until he's dead.

Right now this trial has an item selling for 10million gold, strong weapons and you think the absolute most they should do is remove scores?

Elsonso

Sounds like they fixed it, so probably not?

TequilaFire

Ban happy PvE players. smh
Just fix the bugs.

DPShiro

Can we please get a official response on this @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_RichLambert

Balamoor

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

sure ban people who encounter glitched things...hell no don't even think of fixing them!

ESO where players can harass, threaten real world harm, doxx, and intimidate you for riding an Apex mount with impunity, but get banned for encountering glitches.

It's all about perspective

You keep saying this at any available opportunity.

Provide proof, why dont you? Or report it to the proper authorities?

You know as well as I do you can't name and shame on the forums, the latter has been done as well......

It's concern like yours that keeps me going Doc. :-)

NyassaV

The people who found it abused the crap out of it, then they bug reported it and whenever the did it again they could simply claim they were gathering data. Be it true or not I don't know but blegh

supaskrub

It wasn't described as an exploit in today's pc patch notes:

Asylum Sanctorium Trial
Fixed an issue where Saint Felms would not consistently attack you, or would occasionally not have his weapons.

So if this issue could occur under normal player actions then it is and never was an exploit, if it could be triggered by player intent then even then the onus of proof lays with ZOS and you start to muddy the waters between an incidental occurrence and an intentional occurrence when the real problem is that it was a coding problem that needed fixing. ZOS have not to my knowledge said it was an exploit at anytime.. only the community said that. And where AS has been concerned in the past ZOS were pretty quick to act on what was a blatant out of area exploit.

coop500

Balamoor wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

sure ban people who encounter glitched things...hell no don't even think of fixing them!

ESO where players can harass, threaten real world harm, doxx, and intimidate you for riding an Apex mount with impunity, but you can get banned for encountering glitches.

It's all about perspective

I seen this first hand, but that thread poster got a lot of backlash from the community

Blobsky

Literally, all people do is use distance to stop the jump by out-ranging the jumping boss... I struggle to see how that is anything other than good gameplay xD. All bosses still attack, all other mechanics still go through... Its literally just use of distance and sight lines (Though its going to be a slow finish then probs).

If this is actually not a 'legit' tactic, then Zos literally just need to increase jump range and adjust sight lines.

SaRuZ

Instead of banning players for a broken bugged part of the game. Find whichever employee that coded it and has yet to fix it. Certainly they must have 90 day reviews for performance like every professional corporation in America.

For example, if I worked on an assembly line at an aerospace manufacturer and every other part I was in charge of creating and inspecting, ended up being defective and costing the consumer a lot of time and money. Do you think they would keep me around

[minor edit for commentary]

Zagnut123Zagnut123

HatchetHaro wrote: »

It is much less of an exploit and much more of a clever use of game mechanics. Line-of-sight is a core mechanic in raiding and score pushing, used to stack enemies for a fast AOE burn, and that is the same technique used to glitch out Felms.

Rumors have it that the developers already knew of this and had even responded, telling the guild responsible, as far as I know, that they were fine clearing vAS that way. (Take that with a mine's worth of salt, though; please tell me if I'm wrong.)

In any case, I believe that the absolute most ZOS should do would be to remove the scores where Felms was glitched from the leaderboards. Seriously, that's about it. I can not, in any moral view, say that any of the raiders using that glitch should be punished.

More importantly, ZOS should just fix the damn thing; they've known about it for a long time, so if they did not acknowledge it as an offense and did not fix it during this entire time, it's their fault that raiders would abuse that mechanic.

@zos_finn declared it as a exploit in the council of raiders discord. In my earlier post I made a request for them to treat us all equal and provide us with equal knowledge via the forums.

This bug is the same as sniping from outside the map and could very easily be viewed as not bug or a glitch.

Ffs zoss don't treat us like children and keep us in the dark. Inform us on the forums if this a exploit.

Nifty2g

Blobsky wrote: »

Literally, all people do is use distance to stop the jump by out-ranging the jumping boss... I struggle to see how that is anything other than good gameplay xD. All bosses still attack, all other mechanics still go through... Its literally just use of distance and sight lines (Though its going to be a slow finish then probs).

If this is actually not a 'legit' tactic, then Zos literally just need to increase jump range and adjust sight lines.

As said before, please go get a group and post a video of yourself doing this and see what happens.

Elsonso

SaRuZ wrote: »

Instead of banning players for a broken bugged part of the game. Find whichever employee that coded it and has yet to fix it. Certainly they must have 90 day reviews for performance like every professional corporation in America.

For example, if I worked on an assembly line at an aerospace manufacturer and every other part I was in charge of creating and inspecting, ended up being defective and costing the consumer a lot of time and money. Do you think they would keep me around

The world would be filled with unemployed developers. Companies would be so desperate for anyone to work for them that they would hire them all back.

"If builders built houses the way programmers built programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization."

[minor edit for quote]

zaria

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Bans were already sent out to people who exploited vAS HM by completing the fight vMoL HM style (aka stand far away/outside arena -> Snipe boss to death from safety). That issue is luckily dealt with.

Felms was bugged on PC for awhile (idk if it still is) where Felms would stand still and he’d just get killed while doing zero mechanics. That’s on ZOS. The *actual fight itself* is bugged. No exploit being done. It’d be ridiculous to ban players for beating a fight that the Devs themselves went and messed with. Many thousands of PC players would get banned if this was bannable lol. One guild even posted the “world first speed run” while Felms was bugged this way.

The problem here is that you’re mixing up the massive difference between standing outside vAS HM -> sniping boss to death outside the Arena (exploit) vs. doing the fight normally but ZOS made a boss easier than intended to fight because they themselves bugged it out (hotfix).

There are many scenarios in ESO where the same thing happened but in different trials. Just thinking of upstairs bosson HRC, you’d basically ask for over half of the entire endgame PvE population to get banned

Funny how the tables have turned eh? Correct me if I'm wrong (that's rhetorical I'm not wrong) when PC was beating this trial because of the same exploit you were cussing them up and down AND NOW THAT YOU ARE USING THE SAME EXPLOIT "It would be ridiculous to ban players"

Classic.

*slow clap*

Hypocrite

Think the complain about fast clear on pc was that guild had trained on PTS and it was just an question of who guild got an trial group online after launch.

Princess_Ciri

Felms is such a buggy boss.

Cpt_Teemo

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

sure ban people who encounter glitched things...hell no don't even think of fixing them!

Fixing & Exploiting are 2 different things, even if something isn't fixed yet you shouldn't exploit it

Sargentwilko51

Its a sad day on PS4 NA. A group that 'cleared' has now stated they used this method of freezing Felms in place to get the clear.

Dagoth_Rac

lordrichter wrote: »

SaRuZ wrote: »

Instead of banning players for a broken bugged part of the game. Fire whichever employee that coded it and has yet to fix it. Certainly they must have 90 day reviews for performance like every professional corporation in America.

For example, if I worked on an assembly line at an aerospace manufacturer and every other part I was in charge of creating and inspecting, ended up being defective and costing the consumer a lot of time and money. Do you think they would keep me around

The world would be filled with unemployed developers. Companies would be so desperate for anyone to work for them that they would hire them all back.

"If builders built houses the way programmers built programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization."

It is not really fair to compare design based on the laws of physics with software development. There are no universal, immutable, underlying laws propping up software. Software has more in common with something like law (or even philosophy, believe it or not!), where it is pretty much human designed and interpreted from the ground up.

Doctordarkspawn

Balamoor wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

sure ban people who encounter glitched things...hell no don't even think of fixing them!

ESO where players can harass, threaten real world harm, doxx, and intimidate you for riding an Apex mount with impunity, but get banned for encountering glitches.

It's all about perspective

You keep saying this at any available opportunity.

Provide proof, why dont you? Or report it to the proper authorities?

You know as well as I do you can't name and shame on the forums, the latter has been done as well......

It's concern like yours that keeps me going Doc. :-)

And yet you do your best to shame short of naming. And allways have.

@Balamoor You are hatefull. Whatever happened to these people, you are not doing them any favors riling people up and stirring the pot. Enough of your hate, the community has enough. You might even bring more hate on the people your raging on behalf of, and even if you dont, you are no better than the people your fighting against.

Though, to comment on the original post, there's a difference between encountering a glitch, and exploiting it. When people encountered a glitch with a certain set and werewolf damage way back when Maw was released, a concious decision was made to exploit it to get Vmaw clears. That was they're choice, they paid for that choice. They were permabanned, as well, if I recall.

The people exploiting Felms got they'res, and will continue to. And what constitutes an exploit is alot less subjective where this is concerned. (And yes, I say subjective. What constitutes harassment to one person nowadays, constitutes friendly ribbing by someone else.)

Zbigb4life

Wolfkeks wrote: »

I thought the people who did that got banned and that ZOS was monitoring it?
And the glitch still works? Mmh ZOS has to work on a fix for that....

Yeah but they're to busy with selling costumes and rides for ridiculous prices!

swirve

Two types of response will come from a thread like this...

Those who are pro cheating / exploiting and some of those actively do this so why would they agree with being punished.

Those who want cheating and exploiting punished.

Sadly cheating is rife in all games and developers only scratch the surface in most cases.

Meld777

When vMoL first came out, do you remember how the execute phase used to work? Those balls that spawn and protect the boss. ZOS's idea was that they would not be removable. All DDs would have to save their ultis and then burst the boss through the mitigation. Furthermore, they weren't even removable once they spawned. But Hodor figured out an exploit. When you stood on those black platforms just in time before the balls spawned, you'd "eat" them, and you'd still have enough time to dodge out without being consumed by the void.

This was unintended and an exploit. And it was done on the world 1st vMoL clear. Instead of bursting the last boss as intended, they collected those balls. The fact that they spawned on the black platforms was not to "poison" the person trying to mess with them. It was to emphasize that you shouldn't go there and the balls are there to stay.

After some back and forth between Hodor and ZOS, ZOS later admitted that the idea of an "interactive execute phase" was actually good and, in a later nerf, made the balls removable, even after they had already spawned and were shooting a beam at the boss.

But to give you a better example. Let's ban most of the people that completed Veteran Tempest Island. because the last boss also doesn't charge you when you stand close enough. Felms has a distance. So what? If he is meant to jump anywhere, ZOS could easily increase his range. And if they don't want to or can't, then it should be seen as an intended mechanic, same as the one in vTI. If people have enough DPS to kill Olms, Felms and Llothis, without Felms and Llothis enraging, are not wiping to Llothis's poison beam and are not wiping to Felms's Validreth statue ripoff attack, who cares if he's jumping or not? It would just take slightly longer, but wouldn't affect completion rate/difficulty.

Nifty2g

Meld777 wrote: »

When vMoL first came out, do you remember how the execute phase used to work? Those balls that spawn and protect the boss. ZOS's idea was that they would not be removable. All DDs would have to save their ultis and then burst the boss through the mitigation. Furthermore, they weren't even removable once they spawned. But Hodor figured out an exploit. When you stood on those black platforms just in time before the balls spawned, you'd "eat" them, and you'd still have enough time to dodge out without being consumed by the void

No, ZOS decided to change it because of hardmode as there would be no way to complete it. I also never heard of Hodor having an exploit, they struggled for awhile with execute phase because it was "bugged" as said by ZOS but we know they changed it cause of hardmode at the time.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

It is not really fair to compare design based on the laws of physics with software development. There are no universal, immutable, underlying laws propping up software.

Of course there are, otherwise the output of ALL software would ALWAYS be 100% random.

That Developers a) don't fully understand the laws, b) know how to make them interact properly, and c) rarely if ever correctly catalogue their use of such laws doesn't mean they don't exist.

Now it may be true to say that designing software is not the same as designing/building a house (most houses have very little in the way of genuine moving parts that interact with other moving parts); however, software programming is very much akin to building a car (lots of moving parts interacting with other moving parts, some of which are dependent on user inputs) and consumers would not expect or accept the number of "bugs" we see in software in their cars.

The myth that software development is some form esoteric pseudo-science and Developers can not be held accountable for the poor quality of their output needs to be killed once and for all.

All The Best

Meld777

Nifty2g wrote: »

Meld777 wrote: »

When vMoL first came out, do you remember how the execute phase used to work? Those balls that spawn and protect the boss. ZOS's idea was that they would not be removable. All DDs would have to save their ultis and then burst the boss through the mitigation. Furthermore, they weren't even removable once they spawned. But Hodor figured out an exploit. When you stood on those black platforms just in time before the balls spawned, you'd "eat" them, and you'd still have enough time to dodge out without being consumed by the void

No, ZOS decided to change it because of hardmode as there would be no way to complete it. I also never heard of Hodor having an exploit, they struggled for awhile with execute phase because it was "bugged" as said by ZOS but we know they changed it cause of hardmode at the time.

The way I remember it, they changed it just because they liked the mechanic better this way. When they changed it, Hodor was still struggling with their 2nd non-HM clear. No one was even attempting HM yet.

Let me correct myself, of course no one saw the standing on the platform prior to the bubble spawn to absorb as an exploit. But most people in this thread would sure as hell see it as one.

Also, it wouldn't be the first time when mechanics don't work as initially intended and are still kept this way. Barrage ("machine gun") was also not meant to be a survivable mechanic for the tank. ZOS's idea was that all 12 people get in line behind the tank and share the damage (read the death recap from it ).

Buffler

And people claim the pvp community are salty!!

ZOS_Ragnar

We have removed several posts from this thread that were baiting and disruptive. Please ensure that you keep your posts civil and constructive.

T4T2FR34K

While Im thinking about it...why isn't this thread deleted, what happened to discussing mod's enforcement decisions?

ZOS_RyanM wrote: »

baiting

Cant WAIT till June!!

Tsukiino

Funny. There are groups doing this glitch and claiming that they are doing it legit. They are also selling carries (4 of them so far). They are also farming perfect weapons. Is no action going to be taken? As days go by, and the holidays persist, who knows how many carries they'll do and how many weapons they'll get using this strategy.

Zenimax you all said you'll be hard on the cheaters, but you haven't said a word about this situation.

Zer0oo

So is or was it an exploit and do you punish people for using for something like that?