For Great Justice!

TheShadowScout

The justice system sometimes vexes me, when I see people stealing and murdering in town with impunity - crime pays all too well in Tamriel, even for those fools who get themselves caught all the time, because the punishments for getting caught are just not something a player character will find much of a drawback even if they actually get arrested, which is easier to avoid then some people think.
Now, it made sense back when they coded the justice system, at a time when the PvP part of it was expected to pick up the slack... but that has been shelved for good it seems, so we are left with the current occasionally suboptimal situation when it comes to crime and punishment in the towns of Tamriel.
And I for one would love to see some improvements there... so I decided to write this up and just post it, for discussion (please be nice, or if you want to be nasty... at least make it funny! ) and amusement!


I would love to see a better class of guardsmen (and guardselves, guardsorcs, even guardskitties and guardslizards ) that learn how to jump obstacles and persistently follow players even if said players try to use the pathing system against them, and maybe also use a shrill police whistle to call reinforcements and make all other guards in the area dogpile on the criminal skum from multiple directions as well! (even though that -would- of course open up some new tactics… have one player comitt a crime and run, then have his friends steal stuff while all the guards are busy chasing player one... but having that option would of course make for a more fun game!)


I would love to see something more than merely patrolling guards reacting to a crime happening or a criminal passing by... after reaching a certain total bounty, the law should become active instead of merely reactive, and send NPC lawmen teams after the criminal characters! Meaning a small chance to encounter strong but at least killable teams of guards (I am thinking like the cyrodil guards instead of the immortal town guard) coming after your outlaw characters somewhere in the wilderness while questing, posing the same "fight or flight" question… with the same options, evade them long enough to make a clean getaway, or fight. And as with guards, anyone helping the "outlaw" will find them sharing their bounty. There even could be different "stages" of this, depending on bounty... at first two guards show up to take you in, hit the next level of bounty, and it will be two guards and a wizard, until finally a while SWAT team (special wizardry and tactics) of two fighters, two archers, a wizard and a healer, each of those power levels (which should be completely impossible to deal with for any single character, no matter how good they are... I hope...)


I would love to see bounties that are split per alliance, but never degrade over time, as the guards get some memory training or at least a wall with all the wanted posters hanging up at their never seen guardhouse, so they will remember the criminal who went on a murder spree in wayrest last month if he returns to the scene of the crime... that way a character could have an minor criminal record in the daggerfall covenant, but might be considered an upstanding citizen in the ebonheart pact lands, yet be public enemy number one in aldmeri dominion territory... and no matter how much time passes, they will find their old bounty waiting and the guards ready, so no more hiding out in cyrodil, or coldharbour, or wherever until the law forgets them... that would take bribes (at your friendly neighborhood fence - hey those need to earn money to support their families too after all!) or repaying your debt to society, one way or another. There even could be "most wanted" leaderboards in capital cities, showing the worst of the worst -characters- in all of Tamriel (a most dubious record to brag about, but... I have no doubt some will!)


And on that matter, I would love to see punishments that are not just "pay a fine" or "get killed" (which is not really all that much of a deterrent to immortal vestiges like all our player characters, since it translates into "respawn"), but -actually- stuff players would genuinely want to avoid when they let their criminal energy result in too noticable crimes and make the judge/magistrate want to throw the book at them... After all, having your loot confiscated hardly counts, since smart criminals will make frequent trips to the outlaw refugee to unload, and professional thieves even have a one time "get out of a pinch free" card to play once they attain sufficient rank in their thieves guild!


I am thinking about stuff like...


...spending five or ten minutes "in the stocks", eating up your gametime as repayment for minor criminal deeds... (during which time your bounty would count down, so the actual length of the time spent there would depend on your bounty) with the other players having the option to point and laugh at you, or throw mudballs... possibly also green rotten veggie balls sold by a nearby vendor as well... stand behind you and emote things I cannot quite on the forums to make you uncomfortable or whatever... (Some player would hate giving up time they could spend earning gold or expees, others will just shrug and take that bio break they have been -literally- sitting on for the last half hour because they wanted to "steal one more thing")


...or for heftier crimes, let the guards break out the good old Cat 'o Nine Tails and give the character in question a public whipping (folks in medieval times loved watching those), or similar sorts of corporal punishment common in "ye olde times" (not like there are a shortage of nasty yet survivable things humans have done to each other in the name of punishment over the centuries, right?) that is painful, but quick... and leaves your character with a "raw back" or similarly titled -10%HP debuff for an hour or two of your gametime (again, that would depend on the height of your bounty, which of course would be cleared by the punishment), which may just mean the difference between victory or defeat in a tough fight when you go questing or PvPlaying... and will -not- go away with a mere healing potion (what in Oblivions name do the jailers coat their whips with? )


...and finally, for the worst of the worst among all characters nabbed for being criminal skum, a transport into a "prison isle" public dungeon, where they find themselves clad in rags instead their armor and bereft of weapons (and wishing they had an "Brawling" weapon skill line for unarmed combat), and forced to spend loads of their gametime breaking rocks or sewing jute sacks to work off their bounty... (I can hear the wailing of the speedrun freaks already! It makes me smile...)
Of course, there also should be loads of "prison cliché" encounters...

...from the sadistic guard looking to vent some frustration from his domestic troubles (or lack thereof)...

(Promise a bribe if you have money left after your arrest or use persuade to escape undue harassment)

...to the run in with the kingpins thugs sent to teach the "fresh meat" who the boss of the prison is...

(Persuade or giving the "dark brotherhood stare" if you are with them, to get off without a beating),

...to the incident with the self appointed "Health Inspector" in the prison showers...

(Intimidate or a very tough -unarmed- fight to keep your... pride... intact)

...there also could be extra opportunities...

...like meeting a former crime boss in prison isle who can "set you up" with some of his old contacts if you happen to be a member in good standing with the thieves guild, unlocking a special vendor somewhere... ("Yah, go zee mah cuz Vinnie ovah inna Abah's Landin', 'e ken ged yah sum gud shtuff fell offa kard, yah get meh?")


And naturally, also a hidden "jailbreak" quest, that's not readily available and pointed out by a "quest here!" marker, but can only be found through conversations with the inmates... one bit of info leading to the next until you find the one planning the escape, pick up the quest, and then end up collecting all the ingredients for a successful prison break - again, without much help in the way of quest markers or info… you get a generic "gather bedsheets" but the game would not tell you how many you need, but if you do not get the required (secret) number, it will hurt your chances at success; same for every other ingredient for the escape plan, many of which will require other sub-errants - and if you fail, you end up right where you started, with additional time on your bounty)


This prison isle could come with loads of nifty achievements, possibly unlocks from them as well... tamriel-tastic prison tattoos or criminal brands, a tattered striped "prisoner rags" costume complete with broken shackles or ball-and-chain, prison themed dyes (Jailer hood black, Prisoners orange, Iron bar grey, Prison food green, Soap pink... ), some titles like "Escapee" for those who manage the jailbreak and "Ex-con" for those who work off their time... (possibly one for those who fail the shower encounter as well, tho I doubt ZOS would dare go there you know what my dirty mind is thinking, it rhymes with "Prism Witch"...)

Tandor

Thanks for taking the trouble to think this through and write it up in so much detail.

This is precisely what strengthening the PvE Justice System should be about, rather than the standard PvPers' suggestion of griefing players who go over a certain bounty threshold. While I might nitpick over certain aspects which could be considered excessive tedium-wise , on the whole it takes the whole Justice System in the right direction for PvE content and I'm all for it !

@ZOS_MattFiror

DoctorESO

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Rohamad_Ali

The amount of spanking and whippings gifs is concerning . I don't want to play a Los Angelos PD simulator .

Korah_Eaglecry

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The amount of spanking and whippings gifs is concerning . I don't want to play a Los Angelos PD simulator .

Heck, I dont want to play a BDSM simulator.

TheShadowScout

DoctorESO wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...or for heftier crimes, let the guards break out the good old Cat 'o Nine Tails and give the character in question a public whipping (folks in medieval times loved watching those)

Did they really enjoy watching this?

Afraid so.
Punishments of criminals were pretty much a town spectacle in medieval times. Some of it was the same "bystander effect" you get these days when there is an horrible accident, and crowds gather just to look, laughing at the blood even in some cases, just to deal with denying the fear that it could just as well have been them... and some of it was watching a "bad guy" get their "just punishment" and feeding their own desire for vengeance... and reaffirming their sense of security, seeing that wrongdoers suffered, thus feeling more safe themselves.

And for those in authority, it was a demonstration of both power and "justice". Showing everyone what happens to those that break their law (or go against their authority), and that they still have what it takes to enforce heir law, et cetera. Also preventive... "See, THIS is what we do to criminals here, take your crime elsewhere"

Its pretty much the continuation of roman citizens watching criminals being thrown into the arena to "fight" (considering they were up against trained and armored gladiators or frigging -lions- with only a dull little sword and a linen tunic... those "fights" were more like executions anyhow)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment

And yes, it was barbaric from a modern point of view. They don't call them the "dark ages" for nothing, you know... But hey, ESO is set in a medieval-ish world, so those sorts of punishments -would- fit with the theme.

DoctorESO wrote: »

I don't even like watching that animated image you posted.

Don't worry, Killua didn't either! For one he agreed to deserve that whipping for stabbing his brother, for another he was tough enough to take it. But that's anime for you...

The point is, those punishments are -supposed- to make people wince when they watch them happen to their characters! So they will do their best to -avoid- it happening, creating a sense of danger and fear of the law when they engage in criminal activities.
What would be the use of making them people do not care about, huh?
...
...
...okay, so maybe some people would care about it the wrong way... but there really is a difference between BDSM "fun with pain" whippings, and actual serious "leaves your back raw and scarred" floggings.

Publius_Scipio

I’m not sure if way back when it was considered or not, but I was a fan of certain crime (or level of heat on you) sent you to prison. The prison could be an instance and you would have to escape (tricking guards, pickpocketing guards for keys, and avoiding guard patrols) in order to get out.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The amount of spanking and whippings gifs is concerning . I don't want to play a Los Angelos PD simulator .

Heck, I dont want to play a BDSM simulator.

I just don't want to play an anime simulator. Tried Black Dessert but noped out quickly after seeing watermellon boobs with their own gravity system and some shrill talking creature gibbering at me in Japanese. Keep ESO weeb-free pls.

TheShadowScout

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I’m not sure if way back when it was considered or not, but I was a fan of certain crime (or level of heat on you) sent you to prison. The prison could be an instance and you would have to escape (tricking guards, pickpocketing guards for keys, and avoiding guard patrols) in order to get out.

That is the general idea for the "jailbreak" quest.

Only in an public dungeon instead of an solo instance (we had the solo stuff with the coldharbour escape already after all).

And with lots of prep work going into it... you know the "We need three flintstones, eight coat hangers, five sheets of bed linen... and that guys peg leg!" sort of thing.
With the escape attempt failing if you don't bring enough coat hangers or something. Or fail to hide from the guard patrols in time. Or fumble your lockpicking too much. Or for a dozend other reasons - Just to make it more involved, and to let people who manage it think "Oh, boy, what a bother that was, I don't wanna end up in the prison isle ever again"

And with the jailbreak being an hiden alternate route to just working off your bounty. Which should be even more mindkillingly boring then your average grinding spree, making people who manage it think "Oh, boy, what a bother that was, I don't wanna end up in the prison isle ever again"

The general idea after all is to add punsihments that people might actualyl care about in the "do not want" kind of way, rather then just taking some gold and possibly a respawn which noone really gives a d... uhm... anything about, yes?

DoctorESO

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DoctorESO

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emilyhyoyeon

currently the rewards for crime suit the penalties for getting caught (mediocre rewards, mediocre penalties)

RPGplayer13579

Some very good ideas here.

Dracofyre

hate these guards in Oblivion, it unrealisic for them to know where and which is happening.
Skyrim, you can sneak and pass if unnoticed.

TheShadowScout

DoctorESO wrote: »

Barbaric prisons like the one in Russia described here?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9236.htm

23. The bedbug-infested box has already been mentioned. In the dark closet made of wooden planks, there were hundreds, maybe even thousands, of bedbugs, which had been allowed to multiply. The guards removed the prisoner's jacket or field shirt, and immediately the hungry bedbugs assaulted him, crawling onto him from the walls or falling off the ceiling. At first he waged war with them strenuously, crushing them on his body and on the walls, suffocated by their stink. But after several hours he weakened and let them drink his blood without a murmur.

By all accounts, medieval prisons were at -least- that bad, and usually worse. Noone really cared if the prisoners lived or died in most cases. From bedbugs as standard cellmates to getting nibbled on by rats while sleeping, and forget heating in winter, or running water or plumbing, often even a pile of straw to sleep on or a bucket to relieve themselves in was deemed an "unneccesary luxury" for medieval prisoners. (How that works? They get prison slob in a bowl, do they not? Eat and fill with your feces. And pray that at least someone washes the thing before they fill it for your next meal... and yes, medieval prisons -were- a breeding ground for all sorts of nasty plagues, something that in turn would bite the jailers in the a... behind. Karma, huh?)

And lets not forget, the guards could do whatever. Not like today, where in the western world they have to at least lay off the worst mistreatments, for one to avoid future lawsuits once the prisoner gets released or talks to their lawyers (especially in the more civilized western world), for another to avoid getting shanked by a lifer who has nothing left to loose. In the middle ages... there was always something more to loose. And body parts where among those options.

Even if you got the death senteance, there was still the question of how painful it was gonna be... the guillotine was considered a "very humane" invention because i was -quick-, especially compared to all the other nasty things humans had done to end each other lives.

Really, researching historical info can sometimes make you realize just how good the human race can be at being bad. How much casual cruelty was accepted as a matter of daily life in times gone by (and occasionally still is in some parts of the world)

Now, I am not saying we should import the worst into ESO... but some of the less "guro" things could be a good addition for the justice system, to create atmosphere and a feeling of danger beyond "oh, some gold loss and a respawn, no big" when engaging in crime, as mentioned.

Samadhi

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...

I would love to see bounties that are split per alliance, but never degrade over time, as the guards get some memory training or at least a wall with all the wanted posters hanging up at their never seen guardhouse, so they will remember the criminal who went on a murder spree in wayrest last month if he returns to the scene of the crime... that way a character could have an minor criminal record in the daggerfall covenant, but might be considered an upstanding citizen in the ebonheart pact lands, yet be public enemy number one in aldmeri dominion territory... and no matter how much time passes, they will find their old bounty waiting and the guards ready, so no more hiding out in cyrodil, or coldharbour, or wherever until the law forgets them... that would take bribes (at your friendly neighborhood fence - hey those need to earn money to support their families too after all!) or repaying your debt to society, one way or another. There even could be "most wanted" leaderboards in capital cities, showing the worst of the worst -characters- in all of Tamriel (a most dubious record to brag about, but... I have no doubt some will!)
...

Out of interest,
as someone who roleplays a trafficker/smuggler
would you propose matching penalties across holds
or variation in penalties for start and end alliance

TheShadowScout

Samadhi wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...

I would love to see bounties that are split per alliance, but never degrade over time, as the guards get some memory training or at least a wall with all the wanted posters hanging up at their never seen guardhouse, so they will remember the criminal who went on a murder spree in wayrest last month if he returns to the scene of the crime... that way a character could have an minor criminal record in the daggerfall covenant, but might be considered an upstanding citizen in the ebonheart pact lands, yet be public enemy number one in aldmeri dominion territory... and no matter how much time passes, they will find their old bounty waiting and the guards ready, so no more hiding out in cyrodil, or coldharbour, or wherever until the law forgets them... that would take bribes (at your friendly neighborhood fence - hey those need to earn money to support their families too after all!) or repaying your debt to society, one way or another. There even could be "most wanted" leaderboards in capital cities, showing the worst of the worst -characters- in all of Tamriel (a most dubious record to brag about, but... I have no doubt some will!)
...

Out of interest,
as someone who roleplays a trafficker/smuggler
would you propose matching penalties across holds
or variation in penalties for start and end alliance

Well, I had thought justice system crimes should rack up per alliance... so, steal something in DC lands, get your criminal status there, kill someone in DC lands, raise your criminal status/bounty, but escape to EP lands, and the crime won't follow - but to balance, not degade in DC lands either, so the possible punishment would still be waiting for you when you get back. If you tresspass in hew's bane you get your bounty for DC but not for EP and AD. Et cetera.

More difficult might be crimes comitted while doing a TG heist of DB job... but those could easily be assigned to some alliance and portraved thus. (meaning you could go "Oh, no, I won't do this daiyl heist, because its in EP lands, and I don't want to mess with my clean record there... yeah, right, like any self respecting thief weould do that... )

Not that there really are any "start and end alliances" here... just alliance lands, and since One Tamriel, people can go wherever.

Although, one of the things I do keep thinking about would be different punishments in different lands... like, for example, theft could be lightly punished in bosmer lands, but quite heavily in breton lands, and so on...

Another option for more varietee could be in punishments. Like... get put in stocks in one alliance, and for the same level of punishment get chained to a pole in a different one, and put in a cage for public shaming in the third... etc.

Samadhi

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

...

I would love to see bounties that are split per alliance, but never degrade over time, as the guards get some memory training or at least a wall with all the wanted posters hanging up at their never seen guardhouse, so they will remember the criminal who went on a murder spree in wayrest last month if he returns to the scene of the crime... that way a character could have an minor criminal record in the daggerfall covenant, but might be considered an upstanding citizen in the ebonheart pact lands, yet be public enemy number one in aldmeri dominion territory... and no matter how much time passes, they will find their old bounty waiting and the guards ready, so no more hiding out in cyrodil, or coldharbour, or wherever until the law forgets them... that would take bribes (at your friendly neighborhood fence - hey those need to earn money to support their families too after all!) or repaying your debt to society, one way or another. There even could be "most wanted" leaderboards in capital cities, showing the worst of the worst -characters- in all of Tamriel (a most dubious record to brag about, but... I have no doubt some will!)
...

Out of interest,
as someone who roleplays a trafficker/smuggler
would you propose matching penalties across holds
or variation in penalties for start and end alliance

Well, I had thought justice system crimes should rack up per alliance... so, steal something in DC lands, get your criminal status there, kill someone in DC lands, raise your criminal status/bounty, but escape to EP lands, and the crime won't follow - but to balance, not degade in DC lands either, so the possible punishment would still be waiting for you when you get back. If you tresspass in hew's bane you get your bounty for DC but not for EP and AD. Et cetera.
...

For clarification purposes,
make a point of stealing goods in other alliances
and selling those items in my home alliance

as criminal activity of any form does not actually benefit my home alliance
it would probably carry a separate, perhaps differing penalty

So if my character was caught (never caught, but hypothetically with upgrades to the system) with stolen goods
would they no longer constitute stolen goods upon setting foot in my home alliance
or would it result in a separate bounty as a trafficker of illicit goods as opposed to my bounty as a thief in the alliance of the goods' origin

that...does not feel like it actually served for clarification, but hopefully you will comprehend my line of thinking

DoctorESO

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DoctorESO

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HatchetHaro

While I don't think this system is very feasible for gameplay without a few tweaks, I had a ton of fun reading through the whole thing.

I actually like the part with the corporal punishment and therefore giving the player a debuff, partly because I think a brief debuff is a good idea (the -10% max hp should be much shorter and only apply to overland content and be disabled for dungeons, trials, and PvP; or maybe just a stealth debuff to deter more crime for half an hour), and partly because I'm kinky.

LadyAstrum

My assassin would never kill again, and my thief would never steal again if the OP's ideas were implemented. Luckily for my chars criminal ways, they won't be, so I can happily avoid guards at my leisure and continue to indulge in my delicious misdeeds! *wicked cackle*

TheShadowScout

Samadhi wrote: »

For clarification purposes,
make a point of stealing goods in other alliances
and selling those items in my home alliance

as criminal activity of any form does not actually benefit my home alliance
it would probably carry a separate, perhaps differing penalty

So if my character was caught (never caught, but hypothetically with upgrades to the system) with stolen goods
would they no longer constitute stolen goods upon setting foot in my home alliance
or would it result in a separate bounty as a trafficker of illicit goods as opposed to my bounty as a thief in the alliance of the goods' origin

that...does not feel like it actually served for clarification, but hopefully you will comprehend my line of thinking

Ah, I see. But "possession of stolen goods" is not giving you a bounty anyhow - they just get confiscated if you are stopped for having a bounty...
So, your smuggler would get a bounty and criminal record in the alliances "gone marauding", but never one in the home alliance - unless doing something else there, like mistakenly attacking an innocent or whatever. And no matter how much of a bounty your character gets in the other alliances, there never would be a guard trying for an arrest in the home alliance - but IF a crime in the home alliance was comitted, the stolen goods would still count as "stolen" until laundered. Obviously there is some magic involved in that Some mystic mark that needs be ereased or whatever.

So actually my proposed system would be better for any smugglers... since then you would only need to be careful until you get to the wayshrine, then be home free and need not worry about the guards at home...

Of course, the same system would also apply to paying off your bounty. To pay a fence at home won't get rid of a bounty elsewhere... and the "forged pardons" might then also come in three flavors, one per alliance...

LadyAstrum wrote: »

My assassin would never kill again, and my thief would never steal again if the OP's ideas were implemented. Luckily for my chars criminal ways, they won't be, so I can happily avoid guards at my leisure and continue to indulge in my delicious misdeeds! *wicked cackle*

That IS the general idea! Make people actually fear the possible punishments! Since gamers won't fear respawns or gold loss, let them pay in time and uncomfortable feelings for their in-character crimes

My criminal characters would not stop their dastardly deeds if things went that way. But then, I am always having loads of fun taking extra care not to get caught... even though I am not always successful, it is way more fun IMO then just murder in the open because "whatever" punishments...

monktoasty

No

LadyAstrum

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

For clarification purposes,
make a point of stealing goods in other alliances
and selling those items in my home alliance

as criminal activity of any form does not actually benefit my home alliance
it would probably carry a separate, perhaps differing penalty

So if my character was caught (never caught, but hypothetically with upgrades to the system) with stolen goods
would they no longer constitute stolen goods upon setting foot in my home alliance
or would it result in a separate bounty as a trafficker of illicit goods as opposed to my bounty as a thief in the alliance of the goods' origin

that...does not feel like it actually served for clarification, but hopefully you will comprehend my line of thinking

Ah, I see. But "possession of stolen goods" is not giving you a bounty anyhow - they just get confiscated if you are stopped for having a bounty...
So, your smuggler would get a bounty and criminal record in the alliances "gone marauding", but never one in the home alliance - unless doing something else there, like mistakenly attacking an innocent or whatever. And no matter how much of a bounty your character gets in the other alliances, there never would be a guard trying for an arrest in the home alliance - but IF a crime in the home alliance was comitted, the stolen goods would still count as "stolen" until laundered. Obviously there is some magic involved in that Some mystic mark that needs be ereased or whatever.

So actually my proposed system would be better for any smugglers... since then you would only need to be careful until you get to the wayshrine, then be home free and need not worry about the guards at home...

Of course, the same system would also apply to paying off your bounty. To pay a fence at home won't get rid of a bounty elsewhere... and the "forged pardons" might then also come in three flavors, one per alliance...

LadyAstrum wrote: »

My assassin would never kill again, and my thief would never steal again if the OP's ideas were implemented. Luckily for my chars criminal ways, they won't be, so I can happily avoid guards at my leisure and continue to indulge in my delicious misdeeds! *wicked cackle*

That IS the general idea! Make people actually fear the possible punishments! Since gamers won't fear respawns or gold loss, let them pay in time and uncomfortable feelings for their in-character crimes

My criminal characters would not stop their dastardly deeds if things went that way. But then, I am always having loads of fun taking extra care not to get caught... even though I am not always successful, it is way more fun IMO then just murder in the open because "whatever" punishments...

In all seriousness, I really like your ideas and would gladly see them implemented. I'm not sure my assassin would survive the humiliation the stocks would bring, (the shame would kill her!) but I'd have fun seeing other people in them!

Tasear

Way too much to read so early in the morning, but I do agree the justice system is unbalanced. Maybe it's time to give our characters jobs like nercomancers or guards

TheShadowScout

LadyAstrum wrote: »

In all seriousness, I really like your ideas and would gladly see them implemented. I'm not sure my assassin would survive the humiliation the stocks would bring, (the shame would kill her!) but I'd have fun seeing other people in them!

That is part of the fun! See those too inept to crime! Make fun of them in public chat! And throw mudballs on them!

Tasear wrote: »

Way too much to read so early in the morning, but I do agree the justice system is unbalanced. Maybe it's time to give our characters jobs like nercomancers or guards

Did you say... player characters as guards? Funny you should mention that... check out the old "enforcers guild" idea I once had: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii

Katahdin

So basically you want to negate the total system as it is and entire parts of the game.

If I had to sit in a prison or stocks for 10 minutes, not be able to play my character or have to play some stupid minigame to get out, I would just log to another character or log out completely.

Having a permanent bounty would prevent people from playing that character altogether because you could never go into a city.

As it is, the rewards for stealing is gaining a bit of extra gold and you're capped by the amount you can fence each day.
There is a modicum risk of getting caught and that matches the modicum reward you get for the activity as it is IMO


There could be some stricter enhancements to the penalties and risk vs reward but this proposal goes too far.
so, no thanks

.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

One problem would be balance. For example it wouldn’t really matter how big the pack/patrol of guards were if they are open world mob strength they are basically no threat on some of my characters. Yet if you made them strong enough to be a threat to me, then for new characters it would be all but impossible. Then the same people who would complain about the fact a pvpers might gank them and so they would be locked out of stealing, will still complain that the guards lock them out of stealing/assassinating.

I just don’t see how you make guards a real threat and have them be killable.

Kiara

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The justice system sometimes vexes me, when I see people stealing and murdering in town with impunity - crime pays all too well in Tamriel, even for those fools who get themselves caught all the time, because the punishments for getting caught are just not something a player character will find much of a drawback even if they actually get arrested, which is easier to avoid then some people think.
Now, it made sense back when they coded the justice system, at a time when the PvP part of it was expected to pick up the slack... but that has been shelved for good it seems, so we are left with the current occasionally suboptimal situation when it comes to crime and punishment in the towns of Tamriel.
And I for one would love to see some improvements there... so I decided to write this up and just post it, for discussion (please be nice, or if you want to be nasty... at least make it funny! ) and amusement!


I would love to see a better class of guardsmen (and guardselves, guardsorcs, even guardskitties and guardslizards ) that learn how to jump obstacles and persistently follow players even if said players try to use the pathing system against them, and maybe also use a shrill police whistle to call reinforcements and make all other guards in the area dogpile on the criminal skum from multiple directions as well! (even though that -would- of course open up some new tactics… have one player comitt a crime and run, then have his friends steal stuff while all the guards are busy chasing player one... but having that option would of course make for a more fun game!)


I would love to see something more than merely patrolling guards reacting to a crime happening or a criminal passing by... after reaching a certain total bounty, the law should become active instead of merely reactive, and send NPC lawmen teams after the criminal characters! Meaning a small chance to encounter strong but at least killable teams of guards (I am thinking like the cyrodil guards instead of the immortal town guard) coming after your outlaw characters somewhere in the wilderness while questing, posing the same "fight or flight" question… with the same options, evade them long enough to make a clean getaway, or fight. And as with guards, anyone helping the "outlaw" will find them sharing their bounty. There even could be different "stages" of this, depending on bounty... at first two guards show up to take you in, hit the next level of bounty, and it will be two guards and a wizard, until finally a while SWAT team (special wizardry and tactics) of two fighters, two archers, a wizard and a healer, each of those power levels (which should be completely impossible to deal with for any single character, no matter how good they are... I hope...)


I would love to see bounties that are split per alliance, but never degrade over time, as the guards get some memory training or at least a wall with all the wanted posters hanging up at their never seen guardhouse, so they will remember the criminal who went on a murder spree in wayrest last month if he returns to the scene of the crime... that way a character could have an minor criminal record in the daggerfall covenant, but might be considered an upstanding citizen in the ebonheart pact lands, yet be public enemy number one in aldmeri dominion territory... and no matter how much time passes, they will find their old bounty waiting and the guards ready, so no more hiding out in cyrodil, or coldharbour, or wherever until the law forgets them... that would take bribes (at your friendly neighborhood fence - hey those need to earn money to support their families too after all!) or repaying your debt to society, one way or another. There even could be "most wanted" leaderboards in capital cities, showing the worst of the worst -characters- in all of Tamriel (a most dubious record to brag about, but... I have no doubt some will!)

And on that matter, I would love to see punishments that are not just "pay a fine" or "get killed" (which is not really all that much of a deterrent to immortal vestiges like all our player characters, since it translates into "respawn"), but -actually- stuff players would genuinely want to avoid... After all, having your loot confiscated hardly counts, since smart criminals will make frequent trips to the outlaw refugee to unload, and professional thieves even have a one time "get out of a pinch free" card to play once they attain sufficient rank in their thieves guild!

I am thinking about stuff like...


...spending five or ten minutes "in the stocks", eating up your gametime as repayment for minor criminal deeds... (during which time your bounty would count down, so the actual length of the time spent there would depend on your bounty) with the other players having the option to point and laugh at you, or throw mudballs... possibly also green rotten veggie balls sold by a nearby vendor as well... stand behind you and emote things I cannot quite on the forums to make you uncomfortable or whatever... (Some player would hate giving up time they could spend earning gold or expees, others will just shrug and take that bio break they have been -literally- sitting on for the last half hour because they wanted to "steal one more thing")


...or for heftier crimes, let the guards break out the good old Cat 'o Nine Tails and give the character in question a public whipping (folks in medieval times loved watching those), or similar sorts of corporal punishment common in "ye olde times" (not like there are a shortage of nasty yet survivable things humans have done to each other in the name of punishment over the centuries, right?) that is painful, but quick... and leaves your character with a "raw back" or similarly titled -10%HP debuff for an hour or two of your gametime (again, that would depend on the height of your bounty, which of course would be cleared by the punishment), which may just mean the difference between victory or defeat in a tough fight when you go questing or PvPlaying... and will -not- go away with a mere healing potion (what in Oblivions name do the jailers coat their whips with? )


...and finally, for the worst of the worst among all characters nabbed for being criminal skum, a transport into a "prison isle" public dungeon, where they find themselves clad in rags instead their armor and bereft of weapons (and wishing they had an "Brawling" weapon skill line for unarmed combat), and forced to spend loads of their gametime breaking rocks or sewing jute sacks to work off their bounty... (I can hear the wailing of the speedrun freaks already! It makes me smile...)
Of course, there also should be loads of "prison cliché" encounters...

...from the sadistic guard looking to vent some frustration from his domestic troubles (or lack thereof)...

(Promise a bribe if you have money left after your arrest or use persuade to escape undue harassment)

...to the run in with the kingpins thugs sent to teach the "fresh meat" who the boss of the prison is...

(Persuade or giving the "dark brotherhood stare" if you are with them, to get off without a beating),

...to the incident with the self appointed "Health Inspector" in the prison showers...

(Intimidate or a very tough -unarmed- fight to keep your... pride... intact)

...there also could be extra opportunities... like meeting a former crime boss in prison isle who can "set you up" with some of his old contacts if you happen to be a member in good standing with the thieves guild, unlocking a special vendor somewhere... ("Yah, go zee mah cuz Vinnie ovah inna Abah's Landin', 'e ken ged yah sum gud shtuff fell offa kard, yah get meh?")

And naturally, also a hidden "jailbreak" quest, that's not readily available and pointed out by a "quest here!" marker, but can only be found through conversations with the inmates... one bit of info leading to the next until you find the one planning the escape, pick up the quest, and then end up collecting all the ingredients for a successful prison break - again, without much help in the way of quest markers or info… you get a generic "gather bedsheets" but the game would not tell you how many you need, but if you do not get the required (secret) number, it will hurt your chances at success; same for every other ingredient for the escape plan, many of which will require other sub-errants - and if you fail, you end up right where you started, with additional time on your bounty)

This prison isle could come with loads of nifty achievements, possibly unlocks from them as well... tamriel-tastic prison tattoos or criminal brands, a "prisoner rags" costume complete with broken shackles, prison themed dyes (Jailer hood black, Prisoners orange, Iron bar grey, Prison food green, Soap pink... ), some titles like "Escapee" for those who manage the jailbreak and "Ex-con" for those who work off their time... (possibly one for those who fail the shower encounter as well, tho I doubt ZOS would dare go there you know what my dirty mind is thinking, it rhymes with "Prism Witch"...)

You misspelled scum

DoctorESO

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