Physical/Spell Penetration For PvP

Waffennacht

paulsimonps wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

when you answer as if your word is that of a developer, that is what i was have a problem with, and you know this.

Do I? I mean we comment giving out information we know to be true, we tested it, multiple times. Why should we give our information out acting like it might be false when it isn't? When we know that is how it works.

Dude, you've posted more than enough concrete evidence of all the workings. If someone refuses to believe you despite the mountain of work you have done... Their loss.

And Devs NEVER have commented on mechanics

Lexxypwns

SodanTok wrote: »

So any penetration is over penetrating shields (lets assume that is 1/4 - 1/3 of cyrodiil)
Any penetration above 9k is over penetrating light armor builds (1/3 of cyrodiil)
Any penetration above 12k is over penetrating medium armor builds (still probably 1/3 of cyrodiil)
Any penetration above 15k is over penetrating heavy armor builds (1/3 of cyrodiil)

Add +5k because at least half of cyrodiil will be running some major ward/resolve .
Add 2.5k to phys penetration against heavy and spell penetration against light because of passives.

Now if I ignore the shields and the specific armor passives, because they just confuse things the average penetration to get is around 14k.
Now the too specific things mix it a little.
You need to breach shields to kill the users, penetration wont help you with that all all and most users under them will have less resistance than you have penetration (with 14k)
The value of your penetration is less effective the closer you are to targets resistance. Getting 1000 penetration is much more valuable if you have nothing than if you have 14k and fighting heavy armor build.
You usually need to survive the fight unless you are ganker and penetration does not help with that at all, but crits, damage and resources do.

Based on these things and this is just my opinion, the most efficient value for penetration moves at 50-75% of the average (so 7-10k). At that point there will be barely any over penetration (unless against shield) and you will enjoy the most impactful part of penetration (having nearly always at least half of targets resistance).

tldr; Just get 7-10k and let it be. Including any debuff you may have (minor major breach/fracture)

As you mentioned, I definitely think that you need to always consider an armor buff being present since 90% of good players(the ones you build to kill) are running those. You also need to consider the potential of bloodspawn(its meta and present on a lot of builds). Even considering that you're not generally going to profit from dropping other damage sources to stack penetration since other damage sources increase healing or defense where penetration does not.

This is a very, very, nice analysis of penetration in pvp by @SodanTok imo.

Ragnarock41

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

What's the recommended/most efficient amount to have?

none.

Literally none.

because shieldstacking.

NuarBlack

Waffennacht wrote: »

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

No one actually knows because Zeni decided it would be a good idea to add all these attributes while providing zero description of what they mean or what they do.

33k resistance= 50% mitigation, or 660 = 1%

68 impen = 1% crit damage mitigation

Penetration is the inverse of resistance.

Mitigation from multiple sources is multiplicative

I don't know what more you would need to know

How come all the pve guys say differently? and they have target dummies to test on too. Does it function differently in pvp? They basically have it a 1 to 1 ratio. You stack the exact penetration as what the boss has armor. By this logic/numbers you technically can't over penetrate unless you are above the hard cap in that it is a percentage. Cause technically you could never mitigate more than 50% of an opponents armor. Or penetration isn't really the inverse of resistances. Someone may have done some testing but this logic is bad or fuzzy at best.

NuarBlack

A link in to what the pve players are saying. So who is right? or do they function differently from pve to pvp?


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373875/spell-penetration-cap

Beardimus

NuarBlack wrote: »

A link in to what the pve players are saying. So who is right? or do they function differently from pve to pvp?


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373875/spell-penetration-cap

The difference is big variances in resistances in PvP. PvE is relatively set I.e. Mobs 12k bosses 18k etc etc. You then tailor your pen to match your target.

For example in vMA some bosses have 18k some dont. Mobs have 12k. If you aim for 18k pen all the time you will be over penetrating the mobs, wasting damage you could boost elsewhere.

Pen is important, but the correlation to your target is what's key. If pen was everything in PvE meta would be light / spinners / lover etc, and its not .

Honestly tho the big names commenting in this thread really know their onions and can be trusted, their handle on mechanics etc is amazing.

sly007

NuarBlack wrote: »

A link in to what the pve players are saying. So who is right? or do they function differently from pve to pvp?


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373875/spell-penetration-cap

NuarBlack wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

No one actually knows because Zeni decided it would be a good idea to add all these attributes while providing zero description of what they mean or what they do.

33k resistance= 50% mitigation, or 660 = 1%

68 impen = 1% crit damage mitigation

Penetration is the inverse of resistance.

Mitigation from multiple sources is multiplicative

I don't know what more you would need to know

How come all the pve guys say differently? and they have target dummies to test on too. Does it function differently in pvp? They basically have it a 1 to 1 ratio. You stack the exact penetration as what the boss has armor. By this logic/numbers you technically can't over penetrate unless you are above the hard cap in that it is a percentage. Cause technically you could never mitigate more than 50% of an opponents armor. Or penetration isn't really the inverse of resistances. Someone may have done some testing but this logic is bad or fuzzy at best.

That is because trial bosses have a resistance cap of 18.2. Pve players attempt to reach that penetration value to maximize dps. There are also very few bosses in the games with damage shields to make penetration useless.

PvP players have shields, stamina and magicka. The later being more common. So stacking penetration past a certain amount in pvp is not recommended. Also, many pvp player do not have dedicated healers, therefore they need the spell and or weapon damage to increase healing potency, which also increases overall damage against players with and without damage shield.

NuarBlack

Beardimus wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

A link in to what the pve players are saying. So who is right? or do they function differently from pve to pvp?


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373875/spell-penetration-cap

The difference is big variances in resistances in PvP. PvE is relatively set I.e. Mobs 12k bosses 18k etc etc. You then tailor your pen to match your target.

For example in vMA some bosses have 18k some dont. Mobs have 12k. If you aim for 18k pen all the time you will be over penetrating the mobs, wasting damage you could boost elsewhere.

Pen is important, but the correlation to your target is what's key. If pen was everything in PvE meta would be light / spinners / lover etc, and its not .

Honestly tho the big names commenting in this thread really know their onions and can be trusted, their handle on mechanics etc is amazing.

I get that penetration isn't everything. And that it varies more in pvp. But that still doesn't make the logic sound on either front. I do trust the pve min/maxers more though cause it is easier to test on the pve side. Perhaps the most useful tests are those done with the 2h ult. Those seem to say that if you match pen to resist you get the max damage. Which is a lot different at least logically from from 660 penetration = 1% armor penetration. Probably why ZOS doesn't include penetration on the character sheet or a percentage for resistances either cause it works a lot wonkier than that. For the most part the advice still works in practice even though the logic is flawed but still can pose problems when someone is working on their build. Especially considering this could mean being under the penetration cap could cost you a lot more damage than what that logic would indicate. That the relationship isn't linear at least. And considering the current heavy armor/tank meta having low penetration can make you very ineffective. It's a rock and a hard place cause of shield stackers I know, but still.

Honestly I am surprised but also not at the same time that no one brought up ZOS's comments when they re balanced weapon traits and mundus stones. Speaks to how little trust their is in ZOS but if they did actually re-balance them well it tells us quite a bit. That all being equal a lover stone's worth of penetration should be equal in damage to an apprentice or warrior stone of spell/weapon power.

The logical next step though would be to ask how they scale in relation to each other and peripheral benefits. Some here have done that at least on the peripheral benefits talking about how other stats have benefits outside of dealing damage. But I think when people ask about penetration it is implied that they are looking strictly at damage. So looking at how they scale damage in relation to each other is also useful. As my testing seems to indicate raising which ever is relatively lower has the most effect on my damage. For example If I have two spell power or weapon power oriented sets the lover mundus seems to always out perform the warrior or apprentice mundus as far as damage goes.

Beardimus

"For example If I have two spell power or weapon power oriented sets the lover mundus seems to always out perform the warrior or apprentice mundus as far as damage goes."

I think you need to provide the data behind this statement. whats the complete setup, and what resistance does your target have.

Exploring the data behind this statement on here will probably allow people to answer your question / explain it better

Curtdogg47

Personally I have felt around 10K to be a good number for me. And generally good against most targets. IMO it all comes to down to finding the right balance between all stats. Stam pool, weapon damage, crit, and penn. To much of one or to little of another all effects how you hit.

Next is your target. Some people I simply destroy and others I just give them a tickle! It depends on how they are built as well.

You basically need to paly around with the numbers and fight to see how you preform. Once you get in dialed in, ZOS will change things around, the meta will change and you get to start all over : )

Savos_Saren

Let's just call it 10k and put this thread to rest. Too many arguments and not enough straight answers. 10k is good.

kaithuzar

Not sure if it's been stated here b/c too tired & ;tldr
But I've been using the addon "harven's extended stats" for years, I don't even know if it's been updated but it certainly still works.
That & other addons exist to show numbers that are either hidden or require a bit of calculation

Bam_Bam

Waffennacht wrote: »

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

No one actually knows because Zeni decided it would be a good idea to add all these attributes while providing zero description of what they mean or what they do.

33k resistance= 50% mitigation, or 660 = 1%

68 impen = 1% crit damage mitigation

Penetration is the inverse of resistance.

Mitigation from multiple sources is multiplicative

I don't know what more you would need to know

How about the definition of that "multiplica-thingy" word? I need to know that.


PS. Apologies for necro-thread

paulsimonps

Bam_Bam wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

No one actually knows because Zeni decided it would be a good idea to add all these attributes while providing zero description of what they mean or what they do.

33k resistance= 50% mitigation, or 660 = 1%

68 impen = 1% crit damage mitigation

Penetration is the inverse of resistance.

Mitigation from multiple sources is multiplicative

I don't know what more you would need to know

How about the definition of that "multiplica-thingy" word? I need to know that.


PS. Apologies for necro-thread

@Bam_Bam

Minno

paulsimonps wrote: »

Bam_Bam wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

No one actually knows because Zeni decided it would be a good idea to add all these attributes while providing zero description of what they mean or what they do.

33k resistance= 50% mitigation, or 660 = 1%

68 impen = 1% crit damage mitigation

Penetration is the inverse of resistance.

Mitigation from multiple sources is multiplicative

I don't know what more you would need to know

How about the definition of that "multiplica-thingy" word? I need to know that.


PS. Apologies for necro-thread

@Bam_Bam

And adding to this so it connects to ESO:
For example, battlespirit is 50% dmg reduction and major protection is 30%. If someone does 10k dmg to you in pvp, battlespirit will reduce that damage first. Major protection will still take 30% dmg off, but only on the amount that is left over which would be 5k dmg not the original 10k dmg. Keeps going down the line till you no longer have any mitigation.

That moment is called multiplicative, at least in the context of ESO. Most of the game is this way, with a few things that aren't (and the exact equation is convoluted than this simple explanation.)