Can PvP be more monotonous?

SmellyUnlimited

I’m ready for the inevitable die-hard PvP’er flamingos, but hear me out.

I’m no emperor. I’m not a highly-skilled player killer. I think I’m exceptional at PvE (heavily biased, of course), but PvP is another monster entirely.

Here is my problem with PvP the way it is now:

It never changes.

Sure, keeps change ownership, new alliances claim emperorship, and slaughter fish continue unabated their malicious eat-ership.
But everything stays exactly the same. I recently joined a fairly competitive PvP guild on PS4. We took the keeps around the imperial city, had two members become emperor almost one after another, and I’ve gained a TON of AP (which I completely wasted on the horrible RNG regional boxes).

But Cyrodil has been exactly the same since launch. Green fields, keeps that look identical no matter what your alliance, and the round robin of keep taking and re-taking in a never ending spree. I wish I could say that the PvP fighting itself shined due to superb skill employed and the enjoyment, but 95%of fights are massive zergs fighting (and the lovely lag) and goes to who has the most destro ults and meteors one group can throw. At least imperial city offered some variation.

For you hardcore PvP’ers, what’s the draw? Is it just the love of hearing “Stay on crown!,” or “everyone better have siege”? And why is everyone so concerned on builds and not concerned about changing the landscape/goals involved?

Rohamad_Ali

They can't sell Cyrodiil to you again so new PVP comes in battlefields . In fairness to ZoS , Cyrodiil has changed over time . No more doors on towers . Addition of capturable towns but nothing dramatic . Hence PVP being packed up into Marrowind for resale .

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Dude the deer pulled a Dwemer, same with the torchbugs. So much has changed.

VaranisArano

The draw for me is that players make the fights. Just like a football field is always the same, the rules don't change, and everybody knows the general strategies, the way everything plays out once the game starts is always different every time you step out onto the field.

Same thing for Cyrodiil. The battlefields are the same which means I know where to find fights and how to make fights. I know the rules and the strategies. I know, more or less, what will keep me alive and what's going to get me killed. But Cyrodiil is different every night. Different players. Different strategies. And no fight is ever exactly the same.

NightbladeMechanics

Actually, unlike PvE encounters, no two fights in Cyrodiil are ever the same. Your instanced PvE boss fights will repeat the same mechanics in the same locations every time, but your enemies in PvP are human, and fights occur all over this massive map. This creates unpredictability and variation that we hardcore PvPers find exciting.

Mazbt

I think the exact opposite. I find pvp, fight wise, really dynamic.

SmellyUnlimited

All excellent points. Perhaps I just need to spend a bit more time in Cyrodil to get more exposed to it all.

I do lament, though, that Imperial City is so desolate. Some of my fondest memories in-game were large groups duking it out at Molag Bal or in the Arena.

NightbladeMechanics

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

All excellent points. Perhaps I just need to spend a bit more time in Cyrodil to get more exposed to it all.

I do lament, though, that Imperial City is so desolate. Some of my fondest memories in-game were large groups duking it out at Molag Bal or in the Arena.

Omg those were the days!

Vapirko

It’s really best to use pve/pvp in conjunction with each other. PvE also gets extremely monotonous. Most of the quests follow exactly the same format, it’s all exceptionally easy except for vet trials and arenas, and the grinds are awful. I find that each one is good as a break from the other and to just switch it around the minute you start to feel bogged down by it. ESO is also best played with irl breaks. For me it’s always good to leave myself soemthing to accomplish, aka don’t wreck myself with mages guild grind all at once because once I get meteor that’s great, but then I have no alternative to just endgame pvp. After all it is simply a game built in a finite digital space and it’s always going to be monotonous at some point. I’ve never played other mmos, but people seem to devour content in eso at a terrifying pace. Also it’s good in pvp to change how you play, go solo for a while, go small scale, go large scale challenge yourself to different classes etc or just take a long break.

SmellyUnlimited

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

All excellent points. Perhaps I just need to spend a bit more time in Cyrodil to get more exposed to it all.

I do lament, though, that Imperial City is so desolate. Some of my fondest memories in-game were large groups duking it out at Molag Bal or in the Arena.

Omg those were the days!

I know! And people practically turnin’ tricks in the sewers to get monster teeth.
Now those sets are just a booby prize for a daily undaunted lol.

doslekis

It's the little things my friend, the little things.

When you notice there's an enemy scout following your group from a far so you and your teammates stealth up at the nearest gate to gank him.

When your defending the last emp keep from another alliance for what it seems like eternity, and opening your map up when it's over only to find all your home keeps have been taken. ( but they still didn't get emp)

When your group prepares for its first scroll run of the night and some greenie takes it, and doesn't accept the group invite, so you let him die, and get more satisfaction from that than you would have capturing the scroll.

If your doing the same old PvDoor with the occasional zerg battle cyrodiil that so many people think is the real thing then you will find it repetitive.

I suggest finding a fun group small group of friends to play with and try to change it up a bit. Siege the back wall with ballistas from the nearby mountainside. Take a ride deep into enemy territory and hit the keeps they don't excpect you to take. If you don't like zergs don't go to the emp keeps, plenty of good small scale to be fought at vlast, crops, and outer keeps like drake can be very strategic if won.

And you got to have fun. Too many of these competitive guilds have a guy barking out orders to everyone. Find a group you can laugh with when you die, not someone who curses out the group for not timing their ults at precisely the right time.

zyk

Based on my experiences on PC/NA, which I can see is not your platform, you are playing AvA at its low point. It has been heavily neglected by ZOS for years. It has a lot of gameplay issues that need to be addressed and definitely needs an infusion of new content within Cyrodiil.

Why do many of us keep playing? Because of our friends and because of how good it used to be. But based on its current trajectory, it's going to become mostly a PVE keep zerging zone -- where PVE players zerg undefended keeps like they do dolmens. It often already feels that way.

Curragraigue

The only actual PvP you describe is zerg v zerg. You are right that is boring. The rest of your post is about PvE or what is more commonly know as PvDoor. Taking keeps without fighting players is even more boring.

Try fighting in a smaller group or solo and looking for smaller fights. That way you can focus on the fighting and PvP not siege wars or PvE.

Beardimus

Mazbt wrote: »

I think the exact opposite. I find pvp, fight wise, really dynamic.

This is spot on. With PvE headed in a dull direct of the perfect animation cancel river dance on the buttons, with the BIS sets and rotations it all feels very mechanical

Whereas PvP is dynamic and varied every encounter. It's also hard, there is always someone better than you.

Most PvE is way too easy for anyone CP160+ bar a few Vet contents. And even then when you are on your game all that's left is the monotony of repeating same said content trying for a no death or speed run.

So yes there is monotony in the ever sprawling war that is Cyrodiil but likewise there is in PvE. The fun is to look for Small Scale or work hard as part of a Guild supporting tactics and strategies. Turning the map your colour. Stealing all's scrolls and taking Emp for friends is a better cool night.

BattleGrounds were the spiced up 'fun' aspect that you sound you were hoping for. However they wrecked them by Introing CP.

SmellyUnlimited

Beardimus wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

I think the exact opposite. I find pvp, fight wise, really dynamic.

This is spot on. With PvE headed in a dull direct of the perfect animation cancel river dance on the buttons, with the BIS sets and rotations it all feels very mechanical

Whereas PvP is dynamic and varied every encounter. It's also hard, there is always someone better than you.

Most PvE is way too easy for anyone CP160+ bar a few Vet contents. And even then when you are on your game all that's left is the monotony of repeating same said content trying for a no death or speed run.

So yes there is monotony in the ever sprawling war that is Cyrodiil but likewise there is in PvE. The fun is to look for Small Scale or work hard as part of a Guild supporting tactics and strategies. Turning the map your colour. Stealing all's scrolls and taking Emp for friends is a better cool night.

BattleGrounds were the spiced up 'fun' aspect that you sound you were hoping for. However they wrecked them by Introing CP.

Absolutely agree, PvE is really no better. Everyone grinds for the same gear, and since the big YouTubers have control over what’s “BIS,” it’s just created this copycat hegemony. I do like the fact that PvP has quite a few different build options; much more so than I think PvE.

Also would love for Imp City to be revitalized. The anniversary double tel var had no lasting impact, plus the fact that there really isn’t a pay off for fighting there. The loss of tel var on dying I think adds a fun risk element to battling there, but there is no strong incentive to go do battle there in the first place.

NightbladeMechanics

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

I think the exact opposite. I find pvp, fight wise, really dynamic.

This is spot on. With PvE headed in a dull direct of the perfect animation cancel river dance on the buttons, with the BIS sets and rotations it all feels very mechanical

Whereas PvP is dynamic and varied every encounter. It's also hard, there is always someone better than you.

Most PvE is way too easy for anyone CP160+ bar a few Vet contents. And even then when you are on your game all that's left is the monotony of repeating same said content trying for a no death or speed run.

So yes there is monotony in the ever sprawling war that is Cyrodiil but likewise there is in PvE. The fun is to look for Small Scale or work hard as part of a Guild supporting tactics and strategies. Turning the map your colour. Stealing all's scrolls and taking Emp for friends is a better cool night.

BattleGrounds were the spiced up 'fun' aspect that you sound you were hoping for. However they wrecked them by Introing CP.

Absolutely agree, PvE is really no better. Everyone grinds for the same gear, and since the big YouTubers have control over what’s “BIS,” it’s just created this copycat hegemony. I do like the fact that PvP has quite a few different build options; much more so than I think PvE.

Also would love for Imp City to be revitalized. The anniversary double tel var had no lasting impact, plus the fact that there really isn’t a pay off for fighting there. The loss of tel var on dying I think adds a fun risk element to battling there, but there is no strong incentive to go do battle there in the first place.

There is no Youtuber conspiracy or “control” over what’s bis. The status of being bis is being mathematically superior to all other setups, and is independent of what Youtubers say. Youtubers just do all the math and testing and share what’s bis with players who aren’t knowledgeable or committed enough to discover what’s bis on their own, which is the VAST majority of the playerbase.

You should be thankful you have PvE Youtubers like Gil and others sharing this information with you. If it weren’t for them, the top PvE guilds could keep what’s bis to themselves and hold a competitive advantage over everyone else.

That’s one reason why I find PvE so dull. Because dps gameplay is reduced to repeating the same rotations over and over with the same mathematically superior sets, build diversity and gameplay diversity are reduced. PvP has immense build diversity right now. Like it’s really huge. And if you focus on each fight on a micro level, they’re all quite different and challenging.

I personally enjoy PvE healing quite a bit though. I just don’t bother to do it often.

Lexxypwns

Didn’t read all the replies, but I don’t think any seasoned PVP player will tell you cyrodiil never gets stale for them.

Drummerx04

There are a lot of different play styles you can partake in within Cyrodiil.

• Solo
• Small group
• Medium group
• Large group
• Kush

What you can do in your group size then varies pretty heavily but falls into multiple basic objectives.

• Scouting
• Backline defense
• zerg surfing
• counter siege
• capture keeps/resources with just your group
• defending
• being a *** in zone chat
• 1vX
• guild v faction
• suicide bombs
• farming
• scroll running (can turn into pretty awesome fights)

You'll see a lot of recurring situations for sure.

• DC constantly floods Chal
• AD constantly floods Ash
• Back and forth zerg fights between two unlit keeps
• Guild groups completely rolling all players in your faction while you just /facepalm from the sidelines

Maybe PvP is a little better on PC, but I really like the freedom to sort of go anywhere and do whatever I want in Cyrodiil that you don't really get in PvE.

CyrusArya

The open world nature of cyrodiil. It’s dynamic and as Kena said no two fights are the same. PvP is where this games combat and character building systems are realized in their full glory.

Personally speaking tho, the draw is discovering how different classes utilize their unique strengths and mechanics to arrive to the same conclusions. Specifically, finding a way to make a class viable for solo and 1vX play. I love the playstyle because as it is you alone in a vacuum, the spot light is truly on just the individual class and build. Going from the drawing board theorycrafting builds, to getting it all put together, to struggling and practicing while gaining experieince, to executing flawless 1vX fights. It is the most fulfilling experience in the game to me.

But lately, I haven’t been able to do much of that because the other thing that makes cyrodiil for me is simply the fun of small to medium sized group play. Where you collaborate with friends to overcome the same PvP obstacles and challenges. It’s the same joy as the solo play experience, but you get to share the journey with ppl who’s company you enjoy.

Lucky28

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Actually, unlike PvE encounters, no two fights in Cyrodiil are ever the same. Your instanced PvE boss fights will repeat the same mechanics in the same locations every time, but your enemies in PvP are human, and fights occur all over this massive map. This creates unpredictability and variation that we hardcore PvPers find exciting.

this is what i was going to say. Cyrodiil may stay the same but players don't.

Goshua

Lucky28 wrote: »

This creates unpredictability and variation that we hardcore PvPers find exciting.

If you've been here 6 months or less. You could set a clock based on map activity around certain areas at certain times of day. if you go there, its that group, if you go over there smile you're on candid camera aka Twitch, if this faction has that then this will happen.. A big reason I suggest why hard core PvP's are merely tolerating ESO atm if they play at all.

VaranisArano

Goshua wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

This creates unpredictability and variation that we hardcore PvPers find exciting.

If you've been here 6 months or less. You could set a clock based on map activity around certain areas at certain times of day. if you go there, its that group, if you go over there smile you're on candid camera aka Twitch, if this faction has that then this will happen.. A big reason I suggest why hard core PvP's are merely tolerating ESO atm if they play at all.

Sure. Cyrodiil PVP is predictable to a certain extent because certain objectives are important. That's all part of the strategy of Cyrodiil and its a positive thing for the game.

I'm EP and I'm spoiling for a fight. I can use that predictability to read the map and find fights. DC just flagged Kingscrest with 15/20 siege and I can't get there in time to stop it? I'm gonna head to Farragut or Arrius to defend when they move on, or if I'm a bomber, I'm gonna pick a KC resource and wait in stealth. AD just took Cropsford? I'm heading to Drakelowe to meet them on the front door with a steaming hot oil bath. Does DC have Bleakers or AD have Sejanus? There'll be a Chalman - Bleakers and BRK - Sej farm going on.

So, I can predict where the fights will be (and where the fights won't be, for a little PvDoor action). What I can't predict is how those fights will go. Maybe EP will join me in defending Farragut or maybe it'll be me and my oil pots in a doomed last stand against that DC raid. Maybe EP will actually siege Sej or Bleakers this time (I can dream, can't I?).

Now, when you use that ability to predict where the fights are and aren't for more important things than where can a solo player find a quick fight, then you start seeing the really interesting results of reading the map properly. Some of us don't just tolerate the predictability of the map. Some of us make it work in our favor.

But the main point is, without those objectives, you don't have a way to generate reliable fights. Chalman to Bleakers, Blue Road Keep to Alessia are always reliable fights for EP because those objectives are important. Resource farm groups get fights because maintaining resources is an important objective. Gankers get victims because people move to objectives. Bombers pull off bombs because people are focused on objectives. Reliable fights are a positive thing for the campaign. Without reliable fights or ways to predict/find/get to the fight, players are going to be wandering around the gigantic zone that's Cyrodiil. Currently, an experienced PVPer can look at the map, identify or predict where there's going to be a fight, get there, and start PVPing within minutes of logging into Cyrodiil. That's a good thing.

Goshua

VaranisArano wrote: »

snip

Those things you describe to do is all that has been done on a daily basis for years.
The map is stale, the enemy themselves and objectives are stale no matter what spin you put on it.

You know if they could dynamically change the size of 'battlegrounds' have more of them and allowed guild size raids to join a random 48v48v48 as an eg it might actually break up the groundhog day feeling that is current day Cyrodiil.

Do I think ZOS could pull something like that off? No

oh and not lock such things behind 'chapters'..

VaranisArano

Goshua wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

snip

Those things you describe to do is all that has been done on a daily basis for years.
The map is stale, the enemy themselves and objectives are stale no matter what spin you put on it.

You know if they could dynamically change the size of 'battlegrounds' have more of them and allowed guild size to raids to join a random 48v48v48 as an eg it might actually break up the groundhog day feeling that is current day Cyrodiil.

If you find it stale, that's your right to think that. I've got guildmates who'd been playing since beta who love playing the map. I've not been playing for anywhere near that long, but I also find it quite entertaining. So, I'm going to suggest that stale for you is not true for everyone.

I haven't seen 48v48v48 since the Midyear Mayhem event (there was a seriously epic EP defense of Chalman on Shor versus both AD and DC), but it was amazingly fun. I've definitely seen plenty of 48v48 fights, again, at objectives or on the way to objectives. You get that many players together at important objectives like the last emperor keep before a dethrone or a crowning or the chokepoints like the milegates and bridges. If I want to look for big fights like 48v48, I know where to find them because the map and objectives are, again, useful for predicting where the fights are.

So again, those objectives that create that map movement that you find stale are exactly the thing that generates large scale and small scale battles. Its fine to think those are stale, I certainly agree that the map and objectives make movements predictable in many ways. I just find the predictability to be a benefit to getting me to the actual Player vs Player part faster.

IcyDeadPeople

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Actually, unlike PvE encounters, no two fights in Cyrodiil are ever the same. Your instanced PvE boss fights will repeat the same mechanics in the same locations every time, but your enemies in PvP are human, and fights occur all over this massive map. This creates unpredictability and variation that we hardcore PvPers find exciting.

Yes, it's kinda like each time you log on there is a different story of what happened that day. You make up your own quests of what you want to do.

Zordrage

I love beaming people with my Magplar.....

Also that feel when your in a small group and a 6v6 or something similar happens.... and you press the 6 sec long AOE heal Ult before all your teammates get bursted down in an ambush and literally changed the outcome of the fight with it.....

i always smile with a troll face when these happens.

no better feel then seeing those STUPID backstabbing night blades fail to Burst their targets because you heal the crap out of them.....

Xvorg

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

All excellent points. Perhaps I just need to spend a bit more time in Cyrodil to get more exposed to it all.

I do lament, though, that Imperial City is so desolate. Some of my fondest memories in-game were large groups duking it out at Molag Bal or in the Arena.

I found fights in towns the most entertaining part of current PvP, especially Bruma, with all those walls and debris... and an anchor inside the city.

BroanBeast1215

OP plays in nothing but massive zergs, then comes to the forums and complains pvp is nothing but zergs.

Uwotm8?

AverageJo3Gam3r

That's because cyrodiil is war. And war never changes.

Vizier

They need to remove forward camps. PvP would offer more to more types of players and groups without the instaspawning of Zergballs. This will make it very difficult for factions to Ninja keeps deep behind enemy lines and would require constant "reinforcement" of keep battles from the nearest held keeps of those fighting. This would mean much more opportunity for open world conflict.

I would like to see more meaningful PvP objectives in Cyrodiil spread around the map that actually increase the need to spread forces around and control territory.

Make keeps "power" directly related to how many keeps are in the chain of control AND connected to their home bases. So the keep HP and NPC strength will be more powerful as the chain grows.

Remove IC from the PvP campaign such that zoning into IC removes players from counting toward Pop-cap. OR make controlling IC have direct effect on Alliance points such that it actually has meaning for the campaign.

NirnStorm

@SmellyUnlimited
I may be repeating something someone already said, I did not read the entire comment section. Either way, here's my opinion, as someone who played almost exclusively PvP over 3 years and never stopped enjoying it:

You can argue that Cyrodiil has an unfulllfield potential ( I agree) or you could say ZOS isn't making any improvements to it (I disagree, note tower doors, destro ults and the deers).
But there's nothing you can do about that anyways.

What keeps PvP interesting to me is always having a new goal in the game, something new I am trying to achieve.

For me, it started with playing for the map, for objectives, etc. Two years after I decided to start playing solo and smallscale aiming to get better as an individual. Right now, my goal is to make the best PvP guild that can beat megazergs (Kush scale) as an 8man group.

If you like PvP, you can find so many goals to aim for that would make you enjoy every day on the field. Be it getting GO, coloring the entire map your color or gathering the best players in a group and farming potatoes all night. Whatever you like is great, as long as it gives you something to fight for!