Does Warden need a Nerf

WillhelmBlack

Yes!

You'd say no until you see one living through a ton of organised, concentrated fire then 2 shotting everyone in your group 1 by 1.

Like Stam DK has always been strong. They are weaklings compared to a Stam Warden.

It's also easy to say "stay out of the front cone". Easier said than done in a lot of situations, you cannot permanently kite if you want to do them any damage back on most classes and variants.

Sub Assault too powerful for an unblockable.

Pigeons undodgeable.

Shimmering Shield better than Reflective Scales.

Tree Ultimate, say no more. Permafrost makes you sheath your damn weapons and there's a moment before you can break free.

Best Passives in game due to the nerfing of the other classes passives.

Who play tested them at ZOS? How have they not been adjusted yet? It's been months.

Xvorg

No!

Besides dive, no.

Maybe some tools for other classes to deal with them, but a nerf... please, stop

Solariken

They need... adjustments

Lexxypwns

Waffennacht wrote: »

There's a misconception that shimmering acts like a normal shield, each piece has a limited amount of damage to absorb, there is splash damage.

That's the beauty though, it means you can proc constitution with shimmering up, meaning you can keep shimmering up, basically, forever.

Personally, I think stamden is slightly out of balance, it needs to lose some damage on sub or some utility from it's kit. But I'm not going to vote on a poll that has no context like this so ZoS can just see "X people want us to nerf warden"

However, there's this misconception that people have that you should kite the sub. You don't counter sub by kiting at a distance, that doesn't make sense and limits your options. you counter it by being in the warden's face, much the way you walk through a WB spammer. You counter it with soft and hard CC and basic counting, you see a sub get used then you make sure you're snaring, rooting, or CC'ing the warden before it goes off so that you can manuever(this requires you to know if he's got snare or CC immunity, pay attention). The warden still has the upper hand, and can melt you if you make a mistake, but if you work to fight against sub the proper way then you can make the combo VERY, VERY hard to land.

Hecker777

No!

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

You'd say no until you see one living through a ton of organised, concentrated fire then 2 shotting everyone in your group 1 by 1.

Like Stam DK has always been strong. They are weaklings compared to a Stam Warden.

It's also easy to say "stay out of the front cone". Easier said than done in a lot of situations, you cannot permanently kite if you want to do them any damage back on most classes and variants.

Sub Assault too powerful for an unblockable.

Pigeons undodgeable.

Shimmering Shield better than Reflective Scales.

Tree Ultimate, say no more. Permafrost makes you sheath your damn weapons and there's a moment before you can break free.

Best Passives in game due to the nerfing of the other classes passives.

Who play tested them at ZOS? How have they not been adjusted yet? It's been months.

Agree with you on birds, but keeping CC pressure and moving is a good way to negate sub. A lot of good players can dodge my subs pretty well. I think the balance for beetles is that wardens lack a class CC. Outside of dizzy swing or invasion we really lack a way to keep our targets in front of us. Perma is very strong on mag warden, but on stam it's pretty much only a aoe immobilize. Strong, but not amazing. I pretty much only run it when I'm in a group. Trees are kind of a joke after the nerf. They aren't an "oh s***" button like they used to be, and they by using them they burn any chance I had to use a offensive ult.

So to summarize, cc or dodge me and make me use trees and what am I left with for offense? Dizzy swing and birds (which most good wardens don't run) Seems there is plenty of counterplay for stam warden. Mag warden doesn't have near the shield capacity that sorc does so they are a lot squishier than sorc. As far as shimmering goes, yes it is strong however it is also very expensive with a pretty short uptime so stam wardens are gonna have a really hard time keeping it up considering also needing to use mag for BoP, ice fortress, and green lotus.

I think like any class, they can be incredibly powerful when someone has a deep understanding of the class and plays it perfectly, but there is plenty of counterplay. The one point I will agree on is that birds need to be dodgeable. However, if they do that they need to either up the projectile speed, or make the animation faster. As it stands birds are very clunky and slow which is why most of the good sWarden players aren't even using them.

Adenoma

No!

@Lexxypwns , I think to a point the warden is in this situation where players have failed to adapt to dealing with that playstyle. I'm used to maining stamwarden since early access and I know the playstyle of up in your face is the hardest to counter. A smart magDK using talons effectively feels like a difficult fight where I'm constantly using forward momentum. Same with magNB.

There are some things that need to be toned down, but the class doesn't feel as drastically out of balance as a lot of loud posters in this forum say.

Strider__Roshin

Yes!

Scorch does too much damage, Dive needs to be dodgeable (also needs to have its animation speed increased), Shimmering Shield needs a cost increase, dive needs a slight cost increase.

Trinotops

Yes!

Minor nerfs. Make scorch require a target, make dive dodgeable, and balance shimmering shield (maybe so that it only gives 1.5 or 3 seconds of major heroism on each absorb instead of 6). None of these changes would affect Warden's performance in PvE much if at all.

Thogard

Yes!

Wow. A lot of people are complaining about birds. That’s very interesting to me. Birds is really the least OP facet of the stamdens kit. Just block or LOS...

Sub assault or crystallized shield are far more “OP” than birds.

It actually took me a while to slot crystal shield because I was under the impression that it would only absorb the same things that DK wings would reflect. Nope. Did you know that that shield can even absorb bird spam from another warden? Lol.

I’ve been playing my stamden exclusively since I finished leveling it. It is very strong compared to my Stam DK, which is frankly garbage right now. That poor class has had every one of its class strengths targettes and nerfed (blocking, sustain, heavy armor, shuffle in heavy, etc)

Right now I think the only class on par with stamden is a Stam nb, but the stamden is far more versatile and provides far more group utility.

Lexxypwns

Daus wrote: »

Scorch does too much damage, Dive needs to be dodgeable (also needs to have its animation speed increased), Shimmering Shield needs a cost increase, dive needs a slight cost increase.

Everything except dive is true imo

Adenoma wrote: »

@Lexxypwns , I think to a point the warden is in this situation where players have failed to adapt to dealing with that playstyle. I'm used to maining stamwarden since early access and I know the playstyle of up in your face is the hardest to counter. A smart magDK using talons effectively feels like a difficult fight where I'm constantly using forward momentum. Same with magNB.

There are some things that need to be toned down, but the class doesn't feel as drastically out of balance as a lot of loud posters in this forum say.

Yeah, it’s just got a little too much and that doesn’t force you into very many meaningful build decisions since there’s multiple ways to have it all. This means there’s no specific stam warden spec that’s glaringly OP, all well played stam wardens are tough to deal with for one reason or another and with a very forgiving tool kit that also allows you to harshly punish mistakes it allows you to prolong a fight and at the same time end it quickly, it’s not grossly broken in any particular way it’s just a bit too complete overall imo

ak_pvp

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some PvPers won't be happy until our classes can only light and heavy attack.

If ZoS hadn't listened to PvPers in the first place and gutted the power and distinctiveness of our classes, then maybe Wardens wouldn't seem so scary OP needing a nerf.

1.6 days: MDK is broken god OP, hey instead of nerfing dynamic ulti lets remove it and gut them.

Real complaints, awful balance choices, not "whiners" fault for ZOSs mistakes.

Saint_Bud

Yes!

Some skills need a some tiny changes. They not really good in pve in all rolles, because orher classes performe normaly better because there skilllines are designed for a specific role, but in pvp a good mix of all is op.

Adenoma

No!

@Lexxypwns - roll AD and let's have some warden fun! I forget if I've said that before.

As a stamwarden main I would like some burst from sub assault converted into a short duration strong DOT that bridges maybe 5 seconds and refreshes with the next sub assault. That way you could let the dot tick or hit them with burst again and lose that dot potential damage.

Otherwise, I want to decrease the refund on hit from shimmering shield while shortening the duration of major heroism by half to three seconds.

I feel like these are a good starting point, but I have a more conservative hand than the balance team that ZOS employs. I think small and refined changes are the path to enlightenment.

Freecry

No!

This thread is funny

Make others threads with the same question for the others classes and you'ld have the sames replles

GrigorijMalahevich

No!

Wardens are ok. #nerfsorc

Adenoma

No!

People are so thirsty for nerfs. I hate how we are homogenizing classs via nerfs. These fundamental design changes are just thrown casually into quarterly patches without a very forward thinking design philosophy.

Biro123

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

You'd say no until you see one living through a ton of organised, concentrated fire then 2 shotting everyone in your group 1 by 1.

Like Stam DK has always been strong. They are weaklings compared to a Stam Warden.

It's also easy to say "stay out of the front cone". Easier said than done in a lot of situations, you cannot permanently kite if you want to do them any damage back on most classes and variants.

Sub Assault too powerful for an unblockable.

Pigeons undodgeable.

Shimmering Shield better than Reflective Scales.

Tree Ultimate, say no more. Permafrost makes you sheath your damn weapons and there's a moment before you can break free.

Best Passives in game due to the nerfing of the other classes passives.

Who play tested them at ZOS? How have they not been adjusted yet? It's been months.

Hehe - I've been on the wrong end of those guys too. Getting hit by 3 subs + crit-rushes at the same time does leave a nasty smear on the floor.

#nerfsorc

Hanzus

Yes!

YES, NERF IT!!!.....for cripes sakes, why should we L2P the game, lets just NERF EVERYTHING!.......

Joy_Division

No!

ak_pvp wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some PvPers won't be happy until our classes can only light and heavy attack.

If ZoS hadn't listened to PvPers in the first place and gutted the power and distinctiveness of our classes, then maybe Wardens wouldn't seem so scary OP needing a nerf.

1.6 days: MDK is broken god OP, hey instead of nerfing dynamic ulti lets remove it and gut them.

Real complaints, awful balance choices, not "whiners" fault for ZOSs mistakes.

MagDK in 1.6 was terrible, not a OP god. Terrible because whiners couldn't resist spamming snipe into their wings or move out of banners, so they came onto these forums and convinced ZoS to ruin the class.

Most of "real" complaints are laughable. Go and check one of the 50 "sorcs are OP!" threads from the past couple months and 90% of what's written there is whining by people who need to git gud.

Mazbt

Yes!

in a pvp context only.

Tryxus

Stamden needs toning down, and some skills could use a bit of an overhaul (Arctic Wind and Crystallized Shield being the obvious ones)

But no "heavy" nerfs.

Waffennacht

No!

.

Tryxus wrote: »

Stamden needs toning down, and some skills could use a bit of an overhaul (Arctic Wind and Crystallized Shield being the obvious ones)

But no "heavy" nerfs.

Lmfao... No... No... No heavy nerfs.... BUHAHAHABABABABbsbNJahahahahaha!

Witar

Yes!

Damage of cliffracers is super high - on par with sorcs crystal frags with similar stats. It certanly needs some adjustments.
I've seen 12k cliffracer crits on my magwarden.

newtinmpls

I say:

Maybe.

why do you ask?

SirCritical

No!

Nerf needs to be nerfed.

Koensol

Yes!

The thing with warden is that it sucks major donkey balls in certain aspects (pve dps), but is flatout cheese and broken in others (repeated birds spam and that lousy 1 shot combo with crit charge, sub assault and DB that has little to no counterplay). So what needs to happen apart from toning the above mentioned things down, is the class needs to get more viable options to build a good and effective character. Right now its mostly a one trick pony class, and people rightfully say that when you nerf the one thing they do well, there isn't much left. This is just bad class design. It needs some serious looking at.

Tonturri

- Remove/heavily reduce/require absorbing a certain amount of projectiles to activate the magicka regen on Shimmering and possibly reduce the duration of the Major Heroism
- Change one morph of the DoT - I forget the name >.< - to stamina. The thing with the Fetcher flies or whatever it's called
- Slash Sub Assault's damage, add a DoT on hit. This will reduce the burst by however much people think is necessary and add some DPS. Maybe allow the DoT to last more than three seconds (4-5? Enough that a solid PvE rotation can keep it up, but it requires aiming, planning etc in pvp) and each application makes it stronger up to a certain point? So, even more pve dps, and if the stamden misses one cast (or a purge happens) the DoT will reset. This will prevent the easy stacking of a powerful DoT to eventually just wreck people in pvp.

What think?

Edit: Oh, and adjust the lesser-used skills.

*cough* Can I please use Nature's Embrace on my bear pet again? Pretty please? Maybe even requiring the bear only be on one bar, but it cannot do the hard hitting telegraphed ability nor be commanded via heavy attacks unless it's on your active bar? And, speaking of, using heavies to direct the pet seems ridiculously clunky. Maybe buff it's move speed a bit...

I also think something needs to be done with the gate/teleport thingy. I think I've only ever seen myself using it, ever.

Brutusmax1mus

No!

In regards to pvp, they have no weakness. They have access to so many major and minor buffs, can negate ranged damage to gain a rare and incredibly valuable buff. Incredible sustain through passives and skills so they don't need to sacrifice as much dmg.

Outstanding damage layering. Mag version- Boosted Fletcher, shalks, birds, force pulse, ultimate all hitting simultaneously is very strong. And 2-3, depending on ultimate, of those are unblockable and undodgable, AND stuns. The stam version is even more powerful due to their defenses through the one of the best mag dumps I the game, shimmering, great stam sustain even while blocking due to netch and passives, the list goes on.

Thank God they have no execute thats a class skill is all i have to say.

The main thing is the damage layering, which of its dots, allows counterplay. But this is direct burst dmg.

ak_pvp

Joy_Division wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some PvPers won't be happy until our classes can only light and heavy attack.

If ZoS hadn't listened to PvPers in the first place and gutted the power and distinctiveness of our classes, then maybe Wardens wouldn't seem so scary OP needing a nerf.

1.6 days: MDK is broken god OP, hey instead of nerfing dynamic ulti lets remove it and gut them.

Real complaints, awful balance choices, not "whiners" fault for ZOSs mistakes.

MagDK in 1.6 was terrible, not a OP god. Terrible because whiners couldn't resist spamming snipe into their wings or move out of banners, so they came onto these forums and convinced ZoS to ruin the class.

Most of "real" complaints are laughable. Go and check one of the 50 "sorcs are OP!" threads from the past couple months and 90% of what's written there is whining by people who need to git gud.

I mean the gutting happened in 1.6. 1.5 was the dynamic ultimate mess. Rather than small adjustments more frequently we get either nothing or complete meta flips.

The sorcerer threads were fair then. And there was a reason they were classed as op by so many. (shields) Now after the frag nerf shields are still pita, but now sorcs have lower burst on account of using clench. (Another example of bad balancing, instead of fixing the problem they nerf something unrelated)

GrigorijMalahevich

No!

I find it annoying in BG - to fight against stamwardens in heavy that just pickup a flag and start running with Shimmering shield on - just wasting my time trying to damage him/her.

Joy_Division wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Some PvPers won't be happy until our classes can only light and heavy attack.

If ZoS hadn't listened to PvPers in the first place and gutted the power and distinctiveness of our classes, then maybe Wardens wouldn't seem so scary OP needing a nerf.

1.6 days: MDK is broken god OP, hey instead of nerfing dynamic ulti lets remove it and gut them.

Real complaints, awful balance choices, not "whiners" fault for ZOSs mistakes.

MagDK in 1.6 was terrible, not a OP god. Terrible because whiners couldn't resist spamming snipe into their wings or move out of banners, so they came onto these forums and convinced ZoS to ruin the class.

Most of "real" complaints are laughable. Go and check one of the 50 "sorcs are OP!" threads from the past couple months and 90% of what's written there is whining by people who need to git gud.

hahaha #nerfsorc

P.S. Yes, I agree with you