CWC pointlessly easy.
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Enemoriana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People said the exact same thing about SWTOR " SWTOR players are Kotor players, not mmo players "
So... what?
I'm one of those people, who came here for "Elder Scrolls" part, not "online" part. Because, you know, there is still no TES VI, and I already played Skyrim for more than 1500 hours (Oblivion and Morrowind, i'm sure, much more). I want something new. And when I do quests, I want story and characters, not damned boring all-looks-like-one battles. And not a crowd where you can't see npc and where half of quests is ruined because somebody kills quest boss when you just stepped in area; and not a helper who wants you to read dialogs faster because he is bored waiting. I can't read faster.
For battles and challenges we have public dungeons, group dungeons and trials - choose what is suitable for you. Quest zones are for story.
And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks so.PC EU, @Enemoriana. Ru.
Houses: all sets crafting hub at Rosewine Retreat inn room, Erstwhile Sanctuary as actual Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, Hunter's Glade as werewolf tavern (downstairs), Strident Springs Demesne as adventurer's house.
Wishlist: character slots, minstrel personality, molten war torte and white gold war torte recipes, Willowpond Haven, Kor and Hildegard houseguests, crown crates.1 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
The problem is quest content isn't meant to be an epic struggle. It's there to tell a story with some fights in between.Or have you been getting stronger....
But yeah, overland content is easy everywhere. That's just how it is. No real way to increase the difficulty without hurting the casual questers.
I agree the current level is a little bit silly with a fully trials geared CP690 character but this content isn't balanced around us, the new trial however is.
I also don't want a return to the days of old where it took an hour to clear a couple of veteran rank delves because of the absurd HP grind on trolls. Sure now I wouldn't have an issue because I am max level and fully geared but I remember being a newbie in veteran zones, it wasn't fun for telling a story.
This.
Overland content is not designed for max CP, golded out in what their favorite streamer claims is “BiS” gear players. It’s for No CP players who are just starting out and are still learning the game. The game is an MMO, it is meant to play with others, even PvP. (Exception being dueling, I suppose
) This game was never designed to be Skyrim with Friends. On top of this, the original designers envisioned this game would be DAoC 2, more PvP based where players quested to grind and then spent the rest of their life in PvPland. They had to adjust on the fly when the game bases majority preferred PvE and questing. So the game really isn’t set up to challenge you in solo play, since it’s designed for newer players.
Zo$ has done a decent job of adjusting to the majority of their player base and filling their needs though I will agree a new vMA type of solo content is needed.
I have grown to feel bad for players who were apart of Alpha/Beta and bought in to the original desire of the game. The game today is by no means what it was “sold” to be. A good game yes, probably a better game than what it was envisioned to be but nothing like what it was originally sold to be.
Allow me to disagree with this in its entirely Elder Scrolls, is Elder Scrolls before it is any type of rating, mmo, mmorpg; or otherwise. Those ratings should only ever be important enough to sell the product.
Secondly, there was never more PvE'rs than PvP'ers in the beginning of the this game, this game was a massive PvP population with some questers on the side. But due to ZOS incompetence, Cyrodiil died out and they never fixed it, compounded with the massive amounts of bugs and radical imbalance, ZOS gutted its population.
Continued bugs and screw ups broke the PVP population while catering the to PVE population, is the reason PVP is not as heavy in this game.
1 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »Enemoriana wrote: »Hands off story zones, DLC or not. Quest and delves should be easy. It's ok for low-level character to search help once or twice, but not often. Many players are not "MMO players", they are "Elder Scrolls players". They want new story and lore, but they don't want constantly play in group. It's great that nearly all story is available to everybody, no matter which level and skill they have.
Special mode for those who want difficulty - ok, though I don't believe that can become real, but more difficulty to everybody - no, no, no.
More mechanics - interesting for old players, too much for new, who don't know even basic.
More health and damage - battle won't become more difficult and interesting, they'll become long and boring.
Not so long ago created characters with class I never played before. That. Was. Pain.
People said the exact same thing about SWTOR " SWTOR players are Kotor players, not mmo players "
Yet, difficulty dropped, focus went to story content , playerbase evaporated. People are not as soft as you guys think. And I created a argoSaying the casuals should have to learn their class through adversity is saying screw them? I guess that is how the world works now a days. Heaven forbid people die in a video game. Just wow. Continue to crucify me for wanting to appeal to a wider audience aside from the god mode crowd. And making a zone veteran mode is just a dumb suggestion, no one would do it, which is why a moderate buff to general difficulty would benefit everyone. Casual players would advance in skill, and ask for help, and older players would feel an actual accomplishment going against that ultimate boss in the quest line. But seriously, keep calling me names , go ahead. Really just proving my point.
First of all, stop right there. Do not attempt to insult my intelligence along with everyone else's who reads your post by playing the victim here. Nowhere did I "call you names" or "crucify" you.
Secondly, good job evading my points once again about how your "small buff" idea is not a feasible one, by not addressing it entirely.
Lastly, I find it ironic that you are essentially telling casuals to "grow up and git gud" when you yourself fold under the first sign of an intellectual debate, instantly playing the victim.
I'll repeat your words back at you, paraphrased to make it more appropriate: Saying that I do not agree with your idea is crucifying you and calling you names? I guess that is how the world works nowadays. Heaven forbid people disagree on a video game. Just wow.
Really, calling me arrogant and selfish and being passive aggressive acting like I want to cast out everyone who is a casual gamer? Yeah, that is in fact insulting and crucifying me.lol. Also, I would like to see where I told people to grow up, again, another person putting words in my mouth. And how is saying people should learn their classes through adversity a -bad- thing? Is that really an insult now a days? There is no intellectual debate with you people, it is " The game has to stay super easy or the game will implode on itself " or bust. That's it.Enemoriana wrote: »Hands off story zones, DLC or not. Quest and delves should be easy. It's ok for low-level character to search help once or twice, but not often. Many players are not "MMO players", they are "Elder Scrolls players". They want new story and lore, but they don't want constantly play in group. It's great that nearly all story is available to everybody, no matter which level and skill they have.
Special mode for those who want difficulty - ok, though I don't believe that can become real, but more difficulty to everybody - no, no, no.
More mechanics - interesting for old players, too much for new, who don't know even basic.
More health and damage - battle won't become more difficult and interesting, they'll become long and boring.
Not so long ago created characters with class I never played before. That. Was. Pain.
People said the exact same thing about SWTOR " SWTOR players are Kotor players, not mmo players "
Yet, difficulty dropped, focus went to story content , playerbase evaporated. People are not as soft as you guys think. And I created a argonian nb recently, and the game is stupid easy, not a pain at all.I wish overland content could at least teach new players how to do a proper rotation.
The amount of people that hits cp690 with less than 20k parse is too damn high.
Agreed. But remember we are monsters for wanting people to learn rotation, and be able to learn + read tooltips.@Illurian
It’s the same principle though. Imagine a veteran mode zone that gave gold jewelry for example, but was on the difficulty of a DLC HM dungeon. The cries for nerfs would be deafening.
I would argue otherwise. That's how veteran dungeons already work. You can only get purple jewelry in veteran dungeons, but few to no casuals are crying for nerfs to that.
In my experience, casual players do not care much for the gear that they have. One of the reasons why they fall under the term "casual".
You can go through the whole game in white lvl 10 gear without breaking a sweat. soooo.......I have already posted and proven that.
I played SWtoR for -YEARS-.
Know why I stopped?
Hint: It's also the reason most of their player population fled the game (according to their Forums and Reddit).
Because they stopped releasing content and focused so heavily on the Loot Crates/Boxes at the same time. They also hired a new Game Director who changed mechanics of the game and the Classes, and changed them in a direction that made then antithetical to what they were described to be.
Not because they made the game "too easy".
At least do some research before you blatantly lie.
Played swtor since 2012, I know what I am talking about. The main complaints were.- Too focused on story
- Game became far too easy, even easier than it ever was
- Lack of ANY end game content
- Introducting of Galactic Conquest and RNG crates
- Lack of repeatable content with replay value
What are we seeing in this game now- Game being made super duper easy mode
- Introduction to rng crates as rewards for story/pvp
- Lack of content with replay value
Sound familiar?Edited by Jade1986 on November 16, 2017 11:09PM2 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Enemoriana wrote: »People said the exact same thing about SWTOR " SWTOR players are Kotor players, not mmo players "
So... what?
I'm one of those people, who came here for "Elder Scrolls" part, not "online" part. Because, you know, there is still no TES VI, and I already played Skyrim for more than 1500 hours (Oblivion and Morrowind, i'm sure, much more). I want something new. And when I do quests, I want story and characters, not damned boring all-looks-like-one battles. And not a crowd where you can't see npc and where half of quests is ruined because somebody kills quest boss when you just stepped in area; and not a helper who wants you to read dialogs faster because he is bored waiting. I can't read faster.
For battles and challenges we have public dungeons, group dungeons and trials - choose what is suitable for you. Quest zones are for story.
And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Thats fine, but you shouldnt expect them to cater to you when this is a mmo at its core.2 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »MyKillv2.0 wrote: »
The problem is quest content isn't meant to be an epic struggle. It's there to tell a story with some fights in between.Or have you been getting stronger....
But yeah, overland content is easy everywhere. That's just how it is. No real way to increase the difficulty without hurting the casual questers.
I agree the current level is a little bit silly with a fully trials geared CP690 character but this content isn't balanced around us, the new trial however is.
I also don't want a return to the days of old where it took an hour to clear a couple of veteran rank delves because of the absurd HP grind on trolls. Sure now I wouldn't have an issue because I am max level and fully geared but I remember being a newbie in veteran zones, it wasn't fun for telling a story.
This.
Overland content is not designed for max CP, golded out in what their favorite streamer claims is “BiS” gear players. It’s for No CP players who are just starting out and are still learning the game. The game is an MMO, it is meant to play with others, even PvP. (Exception being dueling, I suppose ) This game was never designed to be Skyrim with Friends. On top of this, the original designers envisioned this game would be DAoC 2, more PvP based where players quested to grind and then spent the rest of their life in PvPland. They had to adjust on the fly when the game bases majority preferred PvE and questing. So the game really isn’t set up to challenge you in solo play, since it’s designed for newer players.
Zo$ has done a decent job of adjusting to the majority of their player base and filling their needs though I will agree a new vMA type of solo content is needed.
I have grown to feel bad for players who were apart of Alpha/Beta and bought in to the original desire of the game. The game today is by no means what it was “sold” to be. A good game yes, probably a better game than what it was envisioned to be but nothing like what it was originally sold to be.
Allow me to disagree with this in its entirely Elder Scrolls, is Elder Scrolls before it is any type of rating, mmo, mmorpg; or otherwise. Those ratings should only ever be important enough to sell the product.
Secondly, there was never more PvE'rs than PvP'ers in the beginning of the this game, this game was a massive PvP population with some questers on the side. But due to ZOS incompetence, Cyrodiil died out and they never fixed it, compounded with the massive amounts of bugs and radical imbalance, ZOS gutted its population.
Continued bugs and screw ups broke the PVP population while catering the to PVE population, is the reason PVP is not as heavy in this game.
Oh how people forget. Cyro was -the - focus at launch.0 -
Enemoriana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
But they did it from the beginning! Main quest even is solo. They made game attractive for players like me. I understand why: players, who like MMO, easily can go to another MMO, players, who like TES, has no options if they want something new.Thats fine, but you shouldnt expect them to cater to you when this is a mmo at its core.
Increasing difficulty makes no sense.
What is now? New players have content they rarely need help, it's easy for experienced, but those people have content specially for them.
What if increase difficulty a bit? New players will need help more often, but it would be still too easy for experienced, and they still will be complaining about no challenge.
What if increase difficulty to be challenging for experienced players? It will become impossible for new to do it solo. I can't imagine worse thing for RPG and TES then impossibility to do quests as you want. Then necessity to find group and play when they can, not when you want, or to play story with pandoms.
Big fights like world bosses - that's ok, even should be so, but not quests. Even story of many quest is against huge crowds.
There's content for everybody and "vet" content.
Availability of story content to everybody is more important then being difficult enough for experienced players.
To say it should be more challenging for them is the same as to say trials should be easy for created-my-first-character-five-minutes-ago player. And that sounds stupid, yeah?PC EU, @Enemoriana. Ru.
Houses: all sets crafting hub at Rosewine Retreat inn room, Erstwhile Sanctuary as actual Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, Hunter's Glade as werewolf tavern (downstairs), Strident Springs Demesne as adventurer's house.
Wishlist: character slots, minstrel personality, molten war torte and white gold war torte recipes, Willowpond Haven, Kor and Hildegard houseguests, crown crates.0 -
LioraValkyrie✭✭✭✭Maybe it would be fun if, after you reach level 50, you have the option - but not requirement - to apply Battle Spirit to yourself in overworld, in exchange for slightly increased gold and slightly more frequent high quality drops from kills. I reckon half damage, half wards and half heals would hit a sweet spot for CP characters in good gear, and that little bit of extra reward would make it feel like your are playing properly and not just gimping your character to increase the difficulty artificially.
There could even be some kind of Battle Spirit drink - pun intended - with lore around it based on the Undaunted, who delight in taking unnecessary risks in the pursuit riches and glory.Mistress of Apocrypha - Master PetSorc
Founder of The Lollygaggers
Creator of the 1-bar vMA build
World first solo vFH
Unchained Altmer Sorc Tank
Visit me on YouTube! Mistress of Apocrypha ESO0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LioraValkyrie wrote: »Maybe it would be fun if, after you reach level 50, you have the option - but not requirement - to apply Battle Spirit to yourself in overworld, in exchange for slightly increased gold and slightly more frequent high quality drops from kills. I reckon half damage, half wards and half heals would hit a sweet spot for CP characters in good gear, and that little bit of extra reward would make it feel like your are playing properly and not just gimping your character to increase the difficulty artificially.
There could even be some kind of Battle Spirit drink - pun intended - with lore around it based on the Undaunted, who delight in taking unnecessary risks in the pursuit riches and glory.
That's not how Battle Spirit works.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Adernath✭✭✭✭✭Then you must be one of the few that were against the One Tamriel update. Prior to this, you would have had a point. Stay in the zones of your level. However, because of One Tamriel (and the direction ZOS is trying to push the game), your argument holds no weight. The purpose of One Tamriel is for anyone to go anywhere, anytime. That's why all mobs are cp 160, and why battle leveling exists. To go against this is to go against the direction of the game over the past year entirely.
You know that being able to group up with other factions players in their zones and reducing game difficulty are two different things?
The former is IMO the reason why 1T was necessary, not the latter, because of the former we were able to find the players in the other faction needed to team up. I found the old difficulty indeed much better besides of the short respawn timer of the mobs, but I am repeating myself here.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates/update/onetamriel
Let me highlight it for you:Travel where you like, whenever you like, with whomever you like regardless of their Alliance or level. Accept any quest, fight any monster, and experience a world of adventure without limits!
You were saying?
I was precisely saying that the part "any level" of your quote was not necessary. It does not matter if you quote this statement, doesn't necessarily make it right. Its exactly what we are questioning in this thread. Understood now?The new content is made for high cp, though. The new trials on vet mode are tough even for cp690 characters. Even vet Blood root forge on hard mode can be a problem for some cp690 players. Overland content and dungeons/trials are separate, and should remain so.
You still don't get the point: We precisely do not want to sit in a trial all the time or in vet dungeons, but also want challenging solo content of the new DLC, since this is the main bulk of new content. We simply want new challenging and entertaining experiences for veteran players outside of group content. New players already have way enough material to explore.
Just like how you do not want to sit in a trial all the time, casuals do not want to have to constantly fight for their lives and take 30 minutes to finish a simple quest. At least you have the option to do vet dungeons or vet trials. Casuals are limited almost entirely to questing and enjoying the storyline, with possibly a normal (non-dlc) dungeon here and there.
Your argument is essentially "I don't like it, change it", which is not an argument at all.
Don't confuse a causal gamer with a new player. What you are talking about is a causal gamer, but such a causal gamer might also be experienced in the game. So are you in fact talking about an inexperienced (ergo: new player)? Because why should a causal gamer not have to fight constantly for his life in new content? I believe that going in particular to new content of the game should be an exciting and challenging experience for everyone. If you want a boring game, fine that's your opinion. I have a different one.
Secondly: Regarding to new players (which may or may not play causal, but are inexperienced) I said: "New players already have way enough material to explore" and this is where they should start.
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Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Enemoriana wrote: »
But they did it from the beginning! Main quest even is solo. They made game attractive for players like me. I understand why: players, who like MMO, easily can go to another MMO, players, who like TES, has no options if they want something new.Thats fine, but you shouldnt expect them to cater to you when this is a mmo at its core.
Increasing difficulty makes no sense.
What is now? New players have content they rarely need help, it's easy for experienced, but those people have content specially for them.
What if increase difficulty a bit? New players will need help more often, but it would be still too easy for experienced, and they still will be complaining about no challenge.
What if increase difficulty to be challenging for experienced players? It will become impossible for new to do it solo. I can't imagine worse thing for RPG and TES then impossibility to do quests as you want. Then necessity to find group and play when they can, not when you want, or to play story with pandoms.
Big fights like world bosses - that's ok, even should be so, but not quests. Even story of many quest is against huge crowds.
There's content for everybody and "vet" content.
Availability of story content to everybody is more important then being difficult enough for experienced players.
To say it should be more challenging for them is the same as to say trials should be easy for created-my-first-character-five-minutes-ago player. And that sounds stupid, yeah?
Every mmo has a solo quest now a days. Yes the content should be friendly for everyone, but it should still be catered to ward the mmo crowd more than the skyrim crowd.0 -
Illurian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Then you must be one of the few that were against the One Tamriel update. Prior to this, you would have had a point. Stay in the zones of your level. However, because of One Tamriel (and the direction ZOS is trying to push the game), your argument holds no weight. The purpose of One Tamriel is for anyone to go anywhere, anytime. That's why all mobs are cp 160, and why battle leveling exists. To go against this is to go against the direction of the game over the past year entirely.
You know that being able to group up with other factions players in their zones and reducing game difficulty are two different things?
The former is IMO the reason why 1T was necessary, not the latter, because of the former we were able to find the players in the other faction needed to team up. I found the old difficulty indeed much better besides of the short respawn timer of the mobs, but I am repeating myself here.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates/update/onetamriel
Let me highlight it for you:Travel where you like, whenever you like, with whomever you like regardless of their Alliance or level. Accept any quest, fight any monster, and experience a world of adventure without limits!
You were saying?
I was precisely saying that the part "any level" of your quote was not necessary. It does not matter if you quote this statement, doesn't necessarily make it right. Its exactly what we are questioning in this thread. Understood now?
So in my original statement, I stated that you being against players going anywhere, anytime is to go against the game's direction entirely. You tried to rebut that by saying that the main reason for One Tamriel was for the ability to group up with other alliances, and not the ability to travel freely.
I quoted the official statement of why One Tamriel was brought around. This supported my original point, which was that if you are against the free questing, you are essentially against the game's entire direction over the past year, which would lead to an entirely different discussion.
We are not, in fact, discussing whether One Tamriel bringing freedom was a good or bad decision. That is the past, it has happened. We are discussing what (in our opinions) should happen in the future. So no, that is not what we are discussing in this thread.
Perhaps "casual player" is too ambiguous a term? Let's define them now.The new content is made for high cp, though. The new trials on vet mode are tough even for cp690 characters. Even vet Blood root forge on hard mode can be a problem for some cp690 players. Overland content and dungeons/trials are separate, and should remain so.
You still don't get the point: We precisely do not want to sit in a trial all the time or in vet dungeons, but also want challenging solo content of the new DLC, since this is the main bulk of new content. We simply want new challenging and entertaining experiences for veteran players outside of group content. New players already have way enough material to explore.
Just like how you do not want to sit in a trial all the time, casuals do not want to have to constantly fight for their lives and take 30 minutes to finish a simple quest. At least you have the option to do vet dungeons or vet trials. Casuals are limited almost entirely to questing and enjoying the storyline, with possibly a normal (non-dlc) dungeon here and there.
Your argument is essentially "I don't like it, change it", which is not an argument at all.
Don't confuse a causal gamer with a new player. What you are talking about is a causal gamer, but such a causal gamer might also be experienced in the game. So are you in fact talking about an inexperienced (ergo: new player)? Because why should a causal gamer not have to fight constantly for his life in new content?
From my experience, the colloquial use of the term "casual player" on these forums typically include players who: 1) are inexperienced, 2) do not pay attention to gear, rotations and mechanics, 3) typically do not even know what most of their skills do. Feel free to correct me here, but this is the definition that I am running by.
Saying that a casual player is also experienced is wildly contradictory, in my opinion. If a player has taken the effort to 1) optimize their build, 2) learn rotations or skill combinations, 3) learn mechanics of fights, I would not classify them as "casual".
The amount of time spent on the game does not define whether or not a player is "casual". I know many CP600s that don't know what a taunt is or any mechanics of any fight. Lots of CP600s don't know how to not stand in red AoEs. These players, while having played for a long time, are still considered casual, in my opinion.
On the other hand, I know many CP100 - 200s that have given thoughts to their builds, their rotations, practiced animation-cancelling etc. Those players, while having clocked less time than the average ESO player, would not be considered casual, in my opinion.
It is not your place to decide for the collective community what they should or shouldn't experience. What is exciting and challenging to you could be frustrating and unplayable to others. This is why a middle ground, say a vet/normal overland option would be the best option.I believe that going in particular to new content of the game should be an exciting and challenging experience for everyone. If you want a boring game, fine that's your opinion. I have a different one.Secondly: Regarding to new players (which may or may not play causal, but are inexperienced) I said: "New players already have way enough material to explore" and this is where they should start.
They paid the same amount of money for the game as you did, so why should they be dictated to stay in "newbie content", when the game is advertised to have so much freedom in questing?
Kiss the chaos.0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Calm down guys. If someone "getting HAMMERED by lowly thunderbugs and alits" at a starter island, it is to expect that those have absolutely zero (0) experience and are therefore not good at this game (yet), or do you beg to differ? And like you derliberately ignored the second half of that paragraph:
"Usually people learn and get better."
So why set difficulty for the absolut non-experienced? Don't you think that once they get used to the game won't die to a trash mob of a overland starter zone anymore too? Says more about you than about me.
Nothing said to you will matter. You have blinders on.1 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd1 -
Illurian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.
Basically what Craglorn was before the nerfs? If history is any indicator, a Craglorn 2.0 won't be successful.
I don't see the point of comparing MMOs, since each MMO has a different target audience.Kiss the chaos.0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.
Basically what Craglorn was before the nerfs? If history is any indicator, a Craglorn 2.0 won't be successful.
I don't see the point of comparing MMOs, since each MMO has a different target audience.
Do we actually have any data on Craglorn? As far as I can tell, most players I know completed it and had fun, some solo or in smaller groups than 4 for more of a challenge (where it wasn't required to get through doors). But I live in my own bubble, just like any other player.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
Everstorm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Then you must be one of the few that were against the One Tamriel update. Prior to this, you would have had a point. Stay in the zones of your level. However, because of One Tamriel (and the direction ZOS is trying to push the game), your argument holds no weight. The purpose of One Tamriel is for anyone to go anywhere, anytime. That's why all mobs are cp 160, and why battle leveling exists. To go against this is to go against the direction of the game over the past year entirely.
You know that being able to group up with other factions players in their zones and reducing game difficulty are two different things?
The former is IMO the reason why 1T was necessary, not the latter, because of the former we were able to find the players in the other faction needed to team up. I found the old difficulty indeed much better besides of the short respawn timer of the mobs, but I am repeating myself here.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates/update/onetamriel
Let me highlight it for you:Travel where you like, whenever you like, with whomever you like regardless of their Alliance or level. Accept any quest, fight any monster, and experience a world of adventure without limits!
You were saying?
I was precisely saying that the part "any level" of your quote was not necessary. It does not matter if you quote this statement, doesn't necessarily make it right. Its exactly what we are questioning in this thread. Understood now?
So in my original statement, I stated that you being against players going anywhere, anytime is to go against the game's direction entirely. You tried to rebut that by saying that the main reason for One Tamriel was for the ability to group up with other alliances, and not the ability to travel freely.
I quoted the official statement of why One Tamriel was brought around. This supported my original point, which was that if you are against the free questing, you are essentially against the game's entire direction over the past year, which would lead to an entirely different discussion.
We are not, in fact, discussing whether One Tamriel bringing freedom was a good or bad decision. That is the past, it has happened. We are discussing what (in our opinions) should happen in the future. So no, that is not what we are discussing in this thread.
Perhaps "casual player" is too ambiguous a term? Let's define them now.The new content is made for high cp, though. The new trials on vet mode are tough even for cp690 characters. Even vet Blood root forge on hard mode can be a problem for some cp690 players. Overland content and dungeons/trials are separate, and should remain so.
You still don't get the point: We precisely do not want to sit in a trial all the time or in vet dungeons, but also want challenging solo content of the new DLC, since this is the main bulk of new content. We simply want new challenging and entertaining experiences for veteran players outside of group content. New players already have way enough material to explore.
Just like how you do not want to sit in a trial all the time, casuals do not want to have to constantly fight for their lives and take 30 minutes to finish a simple quest. At least you have the option to do vet dungeons or vet trials. Casuals are limited almost entirely to questing and enjoying the storyline, with possibly a normal (non-dlc) dungeon here and there.
Your argument is essentially "I don't like it, change it", which is not an argument at all.
Don't confuse a causal gamer with a new player. What you are talking about is a causal gamer, but such a causal gamer might also be experienced in the game. So are you in fact talking about an inexperienced (ergo: new player)? Because why should a causal gamer not have to fight constantly for his life in new content?
From my experience, the colloquial use of the term "casual player" on these forums typically include players who: 1) are inexperienced, 2) do not pay attention to gear, rotations and mechanics, 3) typically do not even know what most of their skills do. Feel free to correct me here, but this is the definition that I am running by.
Saying that a casual player is also experienced is wildly contradictory, in my opinion. If a player has taken the effort to 1) optimize their build, 2) learn rotations or skill combinations, 3) learn mechanics of fights, I would not classify them as "casual".
The amount of time spent on the game does not define whether or not a player is "casual". I know many CP600s that don't know what a taunt is or any mechanics of any fight. Lots of CP600s don't know how to not stand in red AoEs. These players, while having played for a long time, are still considered casual, in my opinion.
On the other hand, I know many CP100 - 200s that have given thoughts to their builds, their rotations, practiced animation-cancelling etc. Those players, while having clocked less time than the average ESO player, would not be considered casual, in my opinion.
It is not your place to decide for the collective community what they should or shouldn't experience. What is exciting and challenging to you could be frustrating and unplayable to others. This is why a middle ground, say a vet/normal overland option would be the best option.I believe that going in particular to new content of the game should be an exciting and challenging experience for everyone. If you want a boring game, fine that's your opinion. I have a different one.Secondly: Regarding to new players (which may or may not play causal, but are inexperienced) I said: "New players already have way enough material to explore" and this is where they should start.
They paid the same amount of money for the game as you did, so why should they be dictated to stay in "newbie content", when the game is advertised to have so much freedom in questing?
I disagree with your view of casual. I consider myself casual. I have 630+ CP, 3 lvl 50 characters, use sets, know my skills, etc. But I don't care for trials or even running pledges every day. I used to be a bit more active but nowadays I just log on, run some quests somewhere, and log off.
Casual for me is someone who doesn't take the game too seriously, doesn't spend most of his/her in-game time doing competitive stuff (trials, leaderboards, etc). That doesn't have to mean he/she doesn't know how the game works.
For me, someone who only barely grasps the mechanics but still tries to get as many pledges and trials done as possible every day is way more hardcore than me.0 -
Illurian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.
Basically what Craglorn was before the nerfs? If history is any indicator, a Craglorn 2.0 won't be successful.
I don't see the point of comparing MMOs, since each MMO has a different target audience.
Do we actually have any data on Craglorn? As far as I can tell, most players I know completed it and had fun, some solo or in smaller groups than 4 for more of a challenge (where it wasn't required to get through doors). But I live in my own bubble, just like any other player.
I don't really know what data you are asking for?
Craglorn used to be much harder than it is now. The difficulty was nerfed presumably because of the outcry of players.Then you must be one of the few that were against the One Tamriel update. Prior to this, you would have had a point. Stay in the zones of your level. However, because of One Tamriel (and the direction ZOS is trying to push the game), your argument holds no weight. The purpose of One Tamriel is for anyone to go anywhere, anytime. That's why all mobs are cp 160, and why battle leveling exists. To go against this is to go against the direction of the game over the past year entirely.
You know that being able to group up with other factions players in their zones and reducing game difficulty are two different things?
The former is IMO the reason why 1T was necessary, not the latter, because of the former we were able to find the players in the other faction needed to team up. I found the old difficulty indeed much better besides of the short respawn timer of the mobs, but I am repeating myself here.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates/update/onetamriel
Let me highlight it for you:Travel where you like, whenever you like, with whomever you like regardless of their Alliance or level. Accept any quest, fight any monster, and experience a world of adventure without limits!
You were saying?
I was precisely saying that the part "any level" of your quote was not necessary. It does not matter if you quote this statement, doesn't necessarily make it right. Its exactly what we are questioning in this thread. Understood now?
So in my original statement, I stated that you being against players going anywhere, anytime is to go against the game's direction entirely. You tried to rebut that by saying that the main reason for One Tamriel was for the ability to group up with other alliances, and not the ability to travel freely.
I quoted the official statement of why One Tamriel was brought around. This supported my original point, which was that if you are against the free questing, you are essentially against the game's entire direction over the past year, which would lead to an entirely different discussion.
We are not, in fact, discussing whether One Tamriel bringing freedom was a good or bad decision. That is the past, it has happened. We are discussing what (in our opinions) should happen in the future. So no, that is not what we are discussing in this thread.
Perhaps "casual player" is too ambiguous a term? Let's define them now.The new content is made for high cp, though. The new trials on vet mode are tough even for cp690 characters. Even vet Blood root forge on hard mode can be a problem for some cp690 players. Overland content and dungeons/trials are separate, and should remain so.
You still don't get the point: We precisely do not want to sit in a trial all the time or in vet dungeons, but also want challenging solo content of the new DLC, since this is the main bulk of new content. We simply want new challenging and entertaining experiences for veteran players outside of group content. New players already have way enough material to explore.
Just like how you do not want to sit in a trial all the time, casuals do not want to have to constantly fight for their lives and take 30 minutes to finish a simple quest. At least you have the option to do vet dungeons or vet trials. Casuals are limited almost entirely to questing and enjoying the storyline, with possibly a normal (non-dlc) dungeon here and there.
Your argument is essentially "I don't like it, change it", which is not an argument at all.
Don't confuse a causal gamer with a new player. What you are talking about is a causal gamer, but such a causal gamer might also be experienced in the game. So are you in fact talking about an inexperienced (ergo: new player)? Because why should a causal gamer not have to fight constantly for his life in new content?
From my experience, the colloquial use of the term "casual player" on these forums typically include players who: 1) are inexperienced, 2) do not pay attention to gear, rotations and mechanics, 3) typically do not even know what most of their skills do. Feel free to correct me here, but this is the definition that I am running by.
Saying that a casual player is also experienced is wildly contradictory, in my opinion. If a player has taken the effort to 1) optimize their build, 2) learn rotations or skill combinations, 3) learn mechanics of fights, I would not classify them as "casual".
The amount of time spent on the game does not define whether or not a player is "casual". I know many CP600s that don't know what a taunt is or any mechanics of any fight. Lots of CP600s don't know how to not stand in red AoEs. These players, while having played for a long time, are still considered casual, in my opinion.
On the other hand, I know many CP100 - 200s that have given thoughts to their builds, their rotations, practiced animation-cancelling etc. Those players, while having clocked less time than the average ESO player, would not be considered casual, in my opinion.
It is not your place to decide for the collective community what they should or shouldn't experience. What is exciting and challenging to you could be frustrating and unplayable to others. This is why a middle ground, say a vet/normal overland option would be the best option.I believe that going in particular to new content of the game should be an exciting and challenging experience for everyone. If you want a boring game, fine that's your opinion. I have a different one.Secondly: Regarding to new players (which may or may not play causal, but are inexperienced) I said: "New players already have way enough material to explore" and this is where they should start.
They paid the same amount of money for the game as you did, so why should they be dictated to stay in "newbie content", when the game is advertised to have so much freedom in questing?
I disagree with your view of casual. I consider myself casual. I have 630+ CP, 3 lvl 50 characters, use sets, know my skills, etc. But I don't care for trials or even running pledges every day. I used to be a bit more active but nowadays I just log on, run some quests somewhere, and log off.
Casual for me is someone who doesn't take the game too seriously, doesn't spend most of his/her in-game time doing competitive stuff (trials, leaderboards, etc). That doesn't have to mean he/she doesn't know how the game works.
For me, someone who only barely grasps the mechanics but still tries to get as many pledges and trials done as possible every day is way more hardcore than me.
Right, and I disagree with your definition of casual. This is a back and forth debate that has no foreseeable end.
Arbitrary definitions aside (let's call your definition of casual group A and mine group B ), while group A will have no problems with a straight up buff to overland content, group B will. Group B should not be excluded in overland content, of all things.Edited by Illurian on November 17, 2017 5:23PMKiss the chaos.0 -
crjs1✭✭✭✭✭Enemoriana wrote: »
But they did it from the beginning! Main quest even is solo. They made game attractive for players like me. I understand why: players, who like MMO, easily can go to another MMO, players, who like TES, has no options if they want something new.Thats fine, but you shouldnt expect them to cater to you when this is a mmo at its core.
Increasing difficulty makes no sense.
What is now? New players have content they rarely need help, it's easy for experienced, but those people have content specially for them.
What if increase difficulty a bit? New players will need help more often, but it would be still too easy for experienced, and they still will be complaining about no challenge.
What if increase difficulty to be challenging for experienced players? It will become impossible for new to do it solo. I can't imagine worse thing for RPG and TES then impossibility to do quests as you want. Then necessity to find group and play when they can, not when you want, or to play story with pandoms.
Big fights like world bosses - that's ok, even should be so, but not quests. Even story of many quest is against huge crowds.
There's content for everybody and "vet" content.
Availability of story content to everybody is more important then being difficult enough for experienced players.
To say it should be more challenging for them is the same as to say trials should be easy for created-my-first-character-five-minutes-ago player. And that sounds stupid, yeah?
Every mmo has a solo quest now a days. Yes the content should be friendly for everyone, but it should still be catered to ward the mmo crowd more than the skyrim crowd.
Why ‘should’ it be catered more towards the mmo crowd? Some of us want it tilted more towards the traditional elder scrolls direction. I think the balance between the 2 pretty good, but I personally would be put off by moving in a more traditional mmo direction.0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭many of us who only PvP in eso and are not good at PvE dont want hard PvE in order to get the rewards needed from PvE to use in PvP.
and we believe that the current PvE in eso is good as it is.0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.
Basically what Craglorn was before the nerfs? If history is any indicator, a Craglorn 2.0 won't be successful.
I don't see the point of comparing MMOs, since each MMO has a different target audience.
Do we actually have any data on Craglorn? As far as I can tell, most players I know completed it and had fun, some solo or in smaller groups than 4 for more of a challenge (where it wasn't required to get through doors). But I live in my own bubble, just like any other player.
I don't really know what data you are asking for?
Craglorn used to be much harder than it is now. The difficulty was nerfed presumably because of the outcry of players.
The questline and overland content outside group events like anomalies were turned into solo content with One Tamriel.
That doesn't mean Craglorn wasn't successful before. I know ZOS is aware that there are players who liked to solo this content for a challenge, but we don't have any numbers - and no argument based off them.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.
Basically what Craglorn was before the nerfs? If history is any indicator, a Craglorn 2.0 won't be successful.
I don't see the point of comparing MMOs, since each MMO has a different target audience.
Do we actually have any data on Craglorn? As far as I can tell, most players I know completed it and had fun, some solo or in smaller groups than 4 for more of a challenge (where it wasn't required to get through doors). But I live in my own bubble, just like any other player.
I don't really know what data you are asking for?
Craglorn used to be much harder than it is now. The difficulty was nerfed presumably because of the outcry of players.
The questline and overland content outside group events like anomalies were turned into solo content with One Tamriel.
That doesn't mean Craglorn wasn't successful before. I know ZOS is aware that there are players who liked to solo this content for a challenge, but we don't have any numbers - and no argument based off them.
Selective memory? Craglorn was active and fun for the first month when it was added as a "group zone." But as soon as the novelty died down and groups were hard to find - especially with others who were on the same step of your chained group quests - it became nothing more than the end-game crafting dailies and nirn grinding spot.0 -
Adernath✭✭✭✭✭Then you must be one of the few that were against the One Tamriel update. Prior to this, you would have had a point. Stay in the zones of your level. However, because of One Tamriel (and the direction ZOS is trying to push the game), your argument holds no weight. The purpose of One Tamriel is for anyone to go anywhere, anytime. That's why all mobs are cp 160, and why battle leveling exists. To go against this is to go against the direction of the game over the past year entirely.
You know that being able to group up with other factions players in their zones and reducing game difficulty are two different things?
The former is IMO the reason why 1T was necessary, not the latter, because of the former we were able to find the players in the other faction needed to team up. I found the old difficulty indeed much better besides of the short respawn timer of the mobs, but I am repeating myself here.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates/update/onetamriel
Let me highlight it for you:Travel where you like, whenever you like, with whomever you like regardless of their Alliance or level. Accept any quest, fight any monster, and experience a world of adventure without limits!
You were saying?
I was precisely saying that the part "any level" of your quote was not necessary. It does not matter if you quote this statement, doesn't necessarily make it right. Its exactly what we are questioning in this thread. Understood now?
So in my original statement, I stated that you being against players going anywhere, anytime is to go against the game's direction entirely. You tried to rebut that by saying that the main reason for One Tamriel was for the ability to group up with other alliances, and not the ability to travel freely.
I quoted the official statement of why One Tamriel was brought around. This supported my original point, which was that if you are against the free questing, you are essentially against the game's entire direction over the past year, which would lead to an entirely different discussion.
We are not, in fact, discussing whether One Tamriel bringing freedom was a good or bad decision. That is the past, it has happened. We are discussing what (in our opinions) should happen in the future. So no, that is not what we are discussing in this thread.
I am indeed against this aspect: That everyone regardless of his level can compete with the overland content. Why? Because 1) there is just no need for it IMO, there are enough vet players of all factions with 1T and 2) It will affect all future content. Every DLC the level cap raises and raises, but the difficulty stays the same, making the game outside of trials and vet content a cake walk in the long run. The decision was made in the past and leads to the current situation which includes CWC.
Perhaps "casual player" is too ambiguous a term? Let's define them now.The new content is made for high cp, though. The new trials on vet mode are tough even for cp690 characters. Even vet Blood root forge on hard mode can be a problem for some cp690 players. Overland content and dungeons/trials are separate, and should remain so.
You still don't get the point: We precisely do not want to sit in a trial all the time or in vet dungeons, but also want challenging solo content of the new DLC, since this is the main bulk of new content. We simply want new challenging and entertaining experiences for veteran players outside of group content. New players already have way enough material to explore.
Just like how you do not want to sit in a trial all the time, casuals do not want to have to constantly fight for their lives and take 30 minutes to finish a simple quest. At least you have the option to do vet dungeons or vet trials. Casuals are limited almost entirely to questing and enjoying the storyline, with possibly a normal (non-dlc) dungeon here and there.
Your argument is essentially "I don't like it, change it", which is not an argument at all.
Don't confuse a causal gamer with a new player. What you are talking about is a causal gamer, but such a causal gamer might also be experienced in the game. So are you in fact talking about an inexperienced (ergo: new player)? Because why should a causal gamer not have to fight constantly for his life in new content?
From my experience, the colloquial use of the term "casual player" on these forums typically include players who: 1) are inexperienced, 2) do not pay attention to gear, rotations and mechanics, 3) typically do not even know what most of their skills do. Feel free to correct me here, but this is the definition that I am running by.
Saying that a casual player is also experienced is wildly contradictory, in my opinion. If a player has taken the effort to 1) optimize their build, 2) learn rotations or skill combinations, 3) learn mechanics of fights, I would not classify them as "casual".
The amount of time spent on the game does not define whether or not a player is "casual". I know many CP600s that don't know what a taunt is or any mechanics of any fight. Lots of CP600s don't know how to not stand in red AoEs. These players, while having played for a long time, are still considered casual, in my opinion.
On the other hand, I know many CP100 - 200s that have given thoughts to their builds, their rotations, practiced animation-cancelling etc. Those players, while having clocked less time than the average ESO player, would not be considered casual, in my opinion.
Then we have a slightly different view on that. For me a causal gamer is just someone who spend only a comparably small amount of daytime actually playing the game. In particular this does not exclude experience nor does it imply it - I don't care about that. Therefore I suggest that we should instead talk about low level players and inexperienced players.
Now lets move on in the discussion: These sort of inexperienced players have - in my opinion - already plenty of zones to explore which are easy enough to keep them entertained. IMO a gradual increase with more difficult zones, in particular in regards of new DLC content, does not harm anyone, because even these people will find enough players due to 1T to help in particular zones.
At least you agree with me that something should be changed.
It is not your place to decide for the collective community what they should or shouldn't experience. What is exciting and challenging to you could be frustrating and unplayable to others. This is why a middle ground, say a vet/normal overland option would be the best option.I believe that going in particular to new content of the game should be an exciting and challenging experience for everyone. If you want a boring game, fine that's your opinion. I have a different one.Secondly: Regarding to new players (which may or may not play causal, but are inexperienced) I said: "New players already have way enough material to explore" and this is where they should start.
They paid the same amount of money for the game as you did, so why should they be dictated to stay in "newbie content", when the game is advertised to have so much freedom in questing?
No one would be confined to do that, but a gradual increase in difficulty isn't really much to demand IMO. In which game would you expect to master the latest content with your fresh low level toon even if you payed for it? One would always have the option to gear up and level up, try to improve their skills, and come back again.
Edited by Adernath on November 17, 2017 7:20PM0 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.
Basically what Craglorn was before the nerfs? If history is any indicator, a Craglorn 2.0 won't be successful.
I don't see the point of comparing MMOs, since each MMO has a different target audience.Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.
Basically what Craglorn was before the nerfs? If history is any indicator, a Craglorn 2.0 won't be successful.
I don't see the point of comparing MMOs, since each MMO has a different target audience.
A whole zone like craglorn will never happen again. What I'd like though is instead of a whole zone like that ( because ZOS won't do it) is a section, a decent sized piece of content that is "harder". Require grouping in areas or challenging groups of mobs where if you're not decently geared or know how to play your class then you're going to have a hard time. There is zero reason why ZOS can't throw out an area for folks who want challenging questing. Throw better rewards there too. Throw us a bone. Would be nice.They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.
Basically what Craglorn was before the nerfs? If history is any indicator, a Craglorn 2.0 won't be successful.
I don't see the point of comparing MMOs, since each MMO has a different target audience.Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.
Basically what Craglorn was before the nerfs? If history is any indicator, a Craglorn 2.0 won't be successful.
I don't see the point of comparing MMOs, since each MMO has a different target audience.
A whole zone like craglorn will never happen again. What I'd like though is instead of a whole zone like that ( because ZOS won't do it) is a section, a decent sized piece of content that is "harder". Require grouping in areas or challenging groups of mobs where if you're not decently geared or know how to play your class then you're going to have a hard time. There is zero reason why ZOS can't throw out an area for folks who want challenging questing. Throw better rewards there too. Throw us a bone. Would be nice.
Indeed, something like these heroic areas from another MMO - ups, I compared again. But really, the problem of craglorn wasn't the difficulty but the nonsensical need to have a group just to open a door.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on November 17, 2017 8:29PM1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.
Basically what Craglorn was before the nerfs? If history is any indicator, a Craglorn 2.0 won't be successful.
I don't see the point of comparing MMOs, since each MMO has a different target audience.
Do we actually have any data on Craglorn? As far as I can tell, most players I know completed it and had fun, some solo or in smaller groups than 4 for more of a challenge (where it wasn't required to get through doors). But I live in my own bubble, just like any other player.
I don't really know what data you are asking for?
Craglorn used to be much harder than it is now. The difficulty was nerfed presumably because of the outcry of players.
The questline and overland content outside group events like anomalies were turned into solo content with One Tamriel.
That doesn't mean Craglorn wasn't successful before. I know ZOS is aware that there are players who liked to solo this content for a challenge, but we don't have any numbers - and no argument based off them.
Selective memory? Craglorn was active and fun for the first month when it was added as a "group zone." But as soon as the novelty died down and groups were hard to find - especially with others who were on the same step of your chained group quests - it became nothing more than the end-game crafting dailies and nirn grinding spot.
There is so much wrong within your post...
1.) Every questing zone ever eventually died out in favor of hotspots with crafting stations, bank and guild traders close to a wayshrine. Does that mean Thieve's Guild was a failure because Hew's Bane is rather empty? Of course not.
2.) A lot of Craglorn's content lies in the delves. People intend on questing there would usually form a group of guildies/friends (not random people from zone, that rarely happened even right after it's launch) and head into one of these. Amplified by the inability to play the story together without being on the same quest stage.
3.) There weren't even crafting dailies or nirncrux before Upper Craglorn. Which, when introduced, was actually very active... I'd think that sounds like a success.
4.) Belkarth is one of the main trading spots to this day on PC EU and I've been told this is not the case on NA anymore. Careful accusing others when you might not actually know the situation.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
datgladiatah✭✭✭Anyone here play Rift? Remember when they added that island to the game? The one with all the elite mobs where if you didn't have good gear and weren't max lvl you were going to have real rough time? That's what I'd like to see. Add it in with one of the next chapters but keep it optional (like on an island). That way we can cater to everyone.
Basically what Craglorn was before the nerfs? If history is any indicator, a Craglorn 2.0 won't be successful.
I don't see the point of comparing MMOs, since each MMO has a different target audience.
Do we actually have any data on Craglorn? As far as I can tell, most players I know completed it and had fun, some solo or in smaller groups than 4 for more of a challenge (where it wasn't required to get through doors). But I live in my own bubble, just like any other player.
I don't really know what data you are asking for?
Craglorn used to be much harder than it is now. The difficulty was nerfed presumably because of the outcry of players.Then you must be one of the few that were against the One Tamriel update. Prior to this, you would have had a point. Stay in the zones of your level. However, because of One Tamriel (and the direction ZOS is trying to push the game), your argument holds no weight. The purpose of One Tamriel is for anyone to go anywhere, anytime. That's why all mobs are cp 160, and why battle leveling exists. To go against this is to go against the direction of the game over the past year entirely.
You know that being able to group up with other factions players in their zones and reducing game difficulty are two different things?
The former is IMO the reason why 1T was necessary, not the latter, because of the former we were able to find the players in the other faction needed to team up. I found the old difficulty indeed much better besides of the short respawn timer of the mobs, but I am repeating myself here.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates/update/onetamriel
Let me highlight it for you:Travel where you like, whenever you like, with whomever you like regardless of their Alliance or level. Accept any quest, fight any monster, and experience a world of adventure without limits!
You were saying?
I was precisely saying that the part "any level" of your quote was not necessary. It does not matter if you quote this statement, doesn't necessarily make it right. Its exactly what we are questioning in this thread. Understood now?
So in my original statement, I stated that you being against players going anywhere, anytime is to go against the game's direction entirely. You tried to rebut that by saying that the main reason for One Tamriel was for the ability to group up with other alliances, and not the ability to travel freely.
I quoted the official statement of why One Tamriel was brought around. This supported my original point, which was that if you are against the free questing, you are essentially against the game's entire direction over the past year, which would lead to an entirely different discussion.
We are not, in fact, discussing whether One Tamriel bringing freedom was a good or bad decision. That is the past, it has happened. We are discussing what (in our opinions) should happen in the future. So no, that is not what we are discussing in this thread.
Perhaps "casual player" is too ambiguous a term? Let's define them now.The new content is made for high cp, though. The new trials on vet mode are tough even for cp690 characters. Even vet Blood root forge on hard mode can be a problem for some cp690 players. Overland content and dungeons/trials are separate, and should remain so.
You still don't get the point: We precisely do not want to sit in a trial all the time or in vet dungeons, but also want challenging solo content of the new DLC, since this is the main bulk of new content. We simply want new challenging and entertaining experiences for veteran players outside of group content. New players already have way enough material to explore.
Just like how you do not want to sit in a trial all the time, casuals do not want to have to constantly fight for their lives and take 30 minutes to finish a simple quest. At least you have the option to do vet dungeons or vet trials. Casuals are limited almost entirely to questing and enjoying the storyline, with possibly a normal (non-dlc) dungeon here and there.
Your argument is essentially "I don't like it, change it", which is not an argument at all.
Don't confuse a causal gamer with a new player. What you are talking about is a causal gamer, but such a causal gamer might also be experienced in the game. So are you in fact talking about an inexperienced (ergo: new player)? Because why should a causal gamer not have to fight constantly for his life in new content?
From my experience, the colloquial use of the term "casual player" on these forums typically include players who: 1) are inexperienced, 2) do not pay attention to gear, rotations and mechanics, 3) typically do not even know what most of their skills do. Feel free to correct me here, but this is the definition that I am running by.
Saying that a casual player is also experienced is wildly contradictory, in my opinion. If a player has taken the effort to 1) optimize their build, 2) learn rotations or skill combinations, 3) learn mechanics of fights, I would not classify them as "casual".
The amount of time spent on the game does not define whether or not a player is "casual". I know many CP600s that don't know what a taunt is or any mechanics of any fight. Lots of CP600s don't know how to not stand in red AoEs. These players, while having played for a long time, are still considered casual, in my opinion.
On the other hand, I know many CP100 - 200s that have given thoughts to their builds, their rotations, practiced animation-cancelling etc. Those players, while having clocked less time than the average ESO player, would not be considered casual, in my opinion.
It is not your place to decide for the collective community what they should or shouldn't experience. What is exciting and challenging to you could be frustrating and unplayable to others. This is why a middle ground, say a vet/normal overland option would be the best option.I believe that going in particular to new content of the game should be an exciting and challenging experience for everyone. If you want a boring game, fine that's your opinion. I have a different one.Secondly: Regarding to new players (which may or may not play causal, but are inexperienced) I said: "New players already have way enough material to explore" and this is where they should start.
They paid the same amount of money for the game as you did, so why should they be dictated to stay in "newbie content", when the game is advertised to have so much freedom in questing?
I disagree with your view of casual. I consider myself casual. I have 630+ CP, 3 lvl 50 characters, use sets, know my skills, etc. But I don't care for trials or even running pledges every day. I used to be a bit more active but nowadays I just log on, run some quests somewhere, and log off.
Casual for me is someone who doesn't take the game too seriously, doesn't spend most of his/her in-game time doing competitive stuff (trials, leaderboards, etc). That doesn't have to mean he/she doesn't know how the game works.
For me, someone who only barely grasps the mechanics but still tries to get as many pledges and trials done as possible every day is way more hardcore than me.
Right, and I disagree with your definition of casual. This is a back and forth debate that has no foreseeable end.
Arbitrary definitions aside (let's call your definition of casual group A and mine group B ), while group A will have no problems with a straight up buff to overland content, group B will. Group B should not be excluded in overland content, of all things.
It was nerfed to fit with the scope of One Tamriel, and it was nerfed because it was unpopular due to REQUIRING a group for most content. Which is 100% my point. Craglorn is a pretty filled zone in Belkarth and I constantly see people farming spellscar, doing dailies, or trying to get nirncrux. The only reason people don't quest there that often is because 1. it's often too difficult for a pre-cp character to play in, which is the point, and 2. because the sets and rewards are so godawful there that most vet players don't want to waste time. No skillpoint rewards. Terrible RNG on motifs. It's not worth putting your effort in that when I can gain much more fast questing in zones like Stonefalls.
All my characters are there to do writs. You don't need to be there for writs anymore, and yet I constantly see open zone chat discussion, far more than any zone outside capital cities. This idea that it's not popular or didn't work after OT is ridiculous and I don't see how any veteran player wouldn't want more zones like it when the challenge and the mechanics of the bosses actually make it fun.
This is why they aren't even trying on Murkmire. Clearly you guys just want more crappy RNG zones where you can try and fail to get motifs for months while I repeat the same 5 vet trials every week. This is what makes me want to leave. I'm not getting a TES experience at all and people who don't even play the game for a fun RPG experience want to ruin it so they can tediously grind new toons for days. But hey, at least you can tediously grind in EVERY available zone, right?1 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭As promised, short and to the point.
(link to video deleted)
watching this video, it becomes quite evident that Covets-Much-Jade the character is being played by a VERY experienced MMO player. The quick moves, the constant shifting of position, the maneuvering just at the edge of "red" are all things not within the capabilities of the less experienced players (like..say..me).
You are a ... well I'll use an analogy and say you are a black belt player.
No misfires noted due to poor targeting, no struggles to figure out what ability to do next, casual compensation for being low on a stat pool.
I suspect, at least in theory, this is why the game was designed with a PvP aspect in mind (and dueling was added, and Battlegrounds were added), as playing other players is always going to be more challenging than playing NPCs.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.***Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Enemoriana wrote: »
But they did it from the beginning! Main quest even is solo. They made game attractive for players like me. I understand why: players, who like MMO, easily can go to another MMO, players, who like TES, has no options if they want something new.Thats fine, but you shouldnt expect them to cater to you when this is a mmo at its core.
Increasing difficulty makes no sense.
What is now? New players have content they rarely need help, it's easy for experienced, but those people have content specially for them.
What if increase difficulty a bit? New players will need help more often, but it would be still too easy for experienced, and they still will be complaining about no challenge.
What if increase difficulty to be challenging for experienced players? It will become impossible for new to do it solo. I can't imagine worse thing for RPG and TES then impossibility to do quests as you want. Then necessity to find group and play when they can, not when you want, or to play story with pandoms.
Big fights like world bosses - that's ok, even should be so, but not quests. Even story of many quest is against huge crowds.
There's content for everybody and "vet" content.
Availability of story content to everybody is more important then being difficult enough for experienced players.
To say it should be more challenging for them is the same as to say trials should be easy for created-my-first-character-five-minutes-ago player. And that sounds stupid, yeah?
Every mmo has a solo quest now a days. Yes the content should be friendly for everyone, but it should still be catered to ward the mmo crowd more than the skyrim crowd.
Why ‘should’ it be catered more towards the mmo crowd? Some of us want it tilted more towards the traditional elder scrolls direction. I think the balance between the 2 pretty good, but I personally would be put off by moving in a more traditional mmo direction.
Then you are playing the wrong game. It is an mmorpg after all.1 -
Daedric_NB_187✭✭✭✭✭And to demonstrate, I will post a video in a bit, lvl 7, with absolute garbage gear, no drinks, no pots, in CwC, no cp, and only a tiny bit of magicka allocated. And you are seriously telling me this isnt too easy? O.o
yes, I'm seriously telling you that this isn't too easy. yes I'm seriously telling you that if difficulty slider isn't happening - and if by your claim veteran zones stay empty? the difficulty has to stay where it is.
Right, 10 minuts till video.
honestly? i don't care. you can get through the content and not die. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. being able to get through the content without dying constantly or being on the verge of dying is NOT a bad thing. you happen to think CWC is too easy. and I happen to think its just right. and the only way for use to get what we both want is a difficulty slide which you while claiming you are fine with, also make up excuses why it would never happen, EVEN THOUGH THIS VERY GAME ORIGINALLY CAME WITH A DIFFICULTY SLIDER. so its already built into the system. which tells me you don't actualy want difficulty slider.
I would be totally cool with a difficulty slider, and if there was one originally built in, I was unaware, instead of throwing a tantrum at me and putting me up on the cross, maybe explain, and provide proof of said slider and its former existance.
and maybe before you make claims and excuses about how difficulty slider is impossible to brush it off in order to push overall increased difficulty - you could do some research?
originally, before they switched to cp system only and eventually one tamriel - while leveling you only had acess to your own faction zones. you had to finish faction story, to do Cadwell's silver and gold, aka stories of other factions. silver and gold are still in game, but its no longer necessary to do them, to acess other faction zones. but what they also did is made those zones progressively more difficult. as in each overworld zone came in 3 difficulties. veteran as a difficulty still exists for dungeons and trials. but all zones are now normalized in order to open them up ala prior elder scrolls games where once you do the tutorial, you could do anything - anywhere.
moreover, speaking of remnants of difficulty sliders. in veteran dungeons, there exists a mechanic on a lst boss where by clicking a scroll on the ground? you make that boss harder. its what's known as hard mode.
in some fashion, difficulty sliders are still in game. and there used to be more of them. but .... even before one tamriel, ESO was nerfed. again and again. because it was losing players. most people don't actualy want harder. well unless they can show off how much better they are then other people, just becasue they completed something on harder difficulty. otherwise, developers wouldn't need to keep adding extra rewards for doing things on harder difficulty.
Well, that really isnt a difficulty slider, that is just preset levels for areas. As much as I did like that , it really bothered me the restrictions you had on questing. When I think difficulty slider I think skyrim, or even more extreme oblivion. I think if they were to keep the overland content as is, and just made bosses more difficult, like they should be, then people would be happy , but even they are pitifully easy atm, making quests incredibly anticlimactic. I am looking at you Morrowind final boss. There needs to be a happy medium, because as it is atm, its just a walk in, not even the park, its a walk through , its not even a walk.
uh. that's basically how difficulty sliders tend to work. you chose a difficulty and then that's the stable difficulty you get. unless you switch up or down.
and again, your experience =/= everyone's experience.Enemoriana wrote: »Hands off story zones, DLC or not. Quest and delves should be easy. It's ok for low-level character to search help once or twice, but not often. Many players are not "MMO players", they are "Elder Scrolls players". They want new story and lore, but they don't want constantly play in group. It's great that nearly all story is available to everybody, no matter which level and skill they have.
Special mode for those who want difficulty - ok, though I don't believe that can become real, but more difficulty to everybody - no, no, no.
More mechanics - interesting for old players, too much for new, who don't know even basic.
More health and damage - battle won't become more difficult and interesting, they'll become long and boring.
Not so long ago created characters with class I never played before. That. Was. Pain.
People said the exact same thing about SWTOR " SWTOR players are Kotor players, not mmo players "
Yet, difficulty dropped, focus went to story content , playerbase evaporated. People are not as soft as you guys think. And I created a argoSaying the casuals should have to learn their class through adversity is saying screw them? I guess that is how the world works now a days. Heaven forbid people die in a video game. Just wow. Continue to crucify me for wanting to appeal to a wider audience aside from the god mode crowd. And making a zone veteran mode is just a dumb suggestion, no one would do it, which is why a moderate buff to general difficulty would benefit everyone. Casual players would advance in skill, and ask for help, and older players would feel an actual accomplishment going against that ultimate boss in the quest line. But seriously, keep calling me names , go ahead. Really just proving my point.
First of all, stop right there. Do not attempt to insult my intelligence along with everyone else's who reads your post by playing the victim here. Nowhere did I "call you names" or "crucify" you.
Secondly, good job evading my points once again about how your "small buff" idea is not a feasible one, by not addressing it entirely.
Lastly, I find it ironic that you are essentially telling casuals to "grow up and git gud" when you yourself fold under the first sign of an intellectual debate, instantly playing the victim.
I'll repeat your words back at you, paraphrased to make it more appropriate: Saying that I do not agree with your idea is crucifying you and calling you names? I guess that is how the world works nowadays. Heaven forbid people disagree on a video game. Just wow.
Really, calling me arrogant and selfish and being passive aggressive acting like I want to cast out everyone who is a casual gamer? Yeah, that is in fact insulting and crucifying me.lol. Also, I would like to see where I told people to grow up, again, another person putting words in my mouth. And how is saying people should learn their classes through adversity a -bad- thing? Is that really an insult now a days? There is no intellectual debate with you people, it is " The game has to stay super easy or the game will implode on itself " or bust. That's it.Enemoriana wrote: »Hands off story zones, DLC or not. Quest and delves should be easy. It's ok for low-level character to search help once or twice, but not often. Many players are not "MMO players", they are "Elder Scrolls players". They want new story and lore, but they don't want constantly play in group. It's great that nearly all story is available to everybody, no matter which level and skill they have.
Special mode for those who want difficulty - ok, though I don't believe that can become real, but more difficulty to everybody - no, no, no.
More mechanics - interesting for old players, too much for new, who don't know even basic.
More health and damage - battle won't become more difficult and interesting, they'll become long and boring.
Not so long ago created characters with class I never played before. That. Was. Pain.
People said the exact same thing about SWTOR " SWTOR players are Kotor players, not mmo players "
Yet, difficulty dropped, focus went to story content , playerbase evaporated. People are not as soft as you guys think. And I created a argonian nb recently, and the game is stupid easy, not a pain at all.I wish overland content could at least teach new players how to do a proper rotation.
The amount of people that hits cp690 with less than 20k parse is too damn high.
Agreed. But remember we are monsters for wanting people to learn rotation, and be able to learn + read tooltips.@Illurian
It’s the same principle though. Imagine a veteran mode zone that gave gold jewelry for example, but was on the difficulty of a DLC HM dungeon. The cries for nerfs would be deafening.
I would argue otherwise. That's how veteran dungeons already work. You can only get purple jewelry in veteran dungeons, but few to no casuals are crying for nerfs to that.
In my experience, casual players do not care much for the gear that they have. One of the reasons why they fall under the term "casual".
You can go through the whole game in white lvl 10 gear without breaking a sweat. soooo.......I have already posted and proven that.
once. again
STOP spreading misinformation.
1. swtor was never particularly hard. in fact - with scaling people down in some ways it was made harder, as you could no longer go back to old zones to solo world bosses or go into hardmode flashpoints and solo them for variety of rewards, decorations mostly.
2. swtor started losing its player when it STOPPED RELEASING CONTENT outside of very short, VERY linear story. becasue even story players? didn't want something THAT linear. they wanted class content and choices. they got on rails story that only really works with force users, preferably light sided ones. difficulty of content had NOTHING to do with it. LACK of content did.
3. I must have missed a video where you are easily questing on a lvl 50 non cp character in level 10 gear >_>
4. you have to make up your mind here. are vet dungeons too difficult to you? or can you pull that 20k+ parse after all? becasue if you can do that parse and apparently you are good enough to compensate for lack of health etc with avoiding damage? how in a bloody world are veteran dungeons difficult for you when most of them are just doable for me and my parse is half that??? and before "you are being carried" gets brought up. I'm usually around 40% of the total group damage done (this includes the tank, and healer btw). though there were a few times where i was at 60% or more. and we even got a few speed runs/hardmodes in there. but I digress. if you can pull above 20k? you are NOT by any means and average player.
P.S. animation canceling is the real cancer of this game.
Excellent summary and spot on. I played SWToR from beta up until September when I finally got fed up with it and started ESO. I seriously don't know where she is getting this information about people leaving cause it was too easy. Your summation is accurate as to why the game took the massive hit in population.
And I'm glad you caught what she said with your point 4. How can you complain about the game being too easy if you aren't even playing the content that is made specifically for you? Or better yet. Saying said content is too difficult? I don't get it.0
