CWC pointlessly easy.

R4TTIUS

Remember craglorn when it was brand new

Doctordarkspawn

R4TTIUS wrote: »

Remember craglorn when it was brand new

Yep.

It sucked nuts.

Illurian

datgladiatah wrote: »

It was nerfed to fit with the scope of One Tamriel, and it was nerfed because it was unpopular due to REQUIRING a group for most content.

When you say "requiring a group" you really just mean that it was tediously difficult for the majority. There were no mechanics (that I recall) that required more than 1 person to accomplish or it would hard fail (such as having to stand on two separate stepping stones to open a door), so do not make it seem as such. The only difficulty in the map was the sheer power and toughness of the mobs/bosses. Dungeons strictly speaking "require a group" but many of us (myself included) are more than capable of soloing most 4 man vet dungeons (that do not possess a multi-person mechanic such as the aforementioned stone stepping) .

datgladiatah wrote: »

Which is 100% my point.

What point? I'm not sure why you quoted me as I wasn't even partaking in a discussion with you.

datgladiatah wrote: »

Craglorn is a pretty filled zone in Belkarth

This is pedantic but Belkarth is a town in Craglorn.

datgladiatah wrote: »

Craglorn is a pretty filled zone in Belkarth and I constantly see people farming spellscar, doing dailies, or trying to get nirncrux. The only reason people don't quest there that often is because 1. it's often too difficult for a pre-cp character to play in, which is the point, and 2. because the sets and rewards are so godawful there that most vet players don't want to waste time. No skillpoint rewards. Terrible RNG on motifs. It's not worth putting your effort in that when I can gain much more fast questing in zones like Stonefalls.

Your only point here is about material gain, not personal success. You don't care that it's difficult, you only care that it doesn't have as good rewards. This is a separate issue entirely.

datgladiatah wrote: »

All my characters are there to do writs. You don't need to be there for writs anymore, and yet I constantly see open zone chat discussion, far more than any zone outside capital cities. This idea that it's not popular or didn't work after OT is ridiculous and I don't see how any veteran player wouldn't want more zones like it when the challenge and the mechanics of the bosses actually make it fun.

So is your argument for fun or material gain? If you're all about having fun, what's wrong with doing Craglorn now, since, by your words, it's already difficult for pre-cp characters? If it's material gain, go and farm elsewhere, since as you said, you can get better rewards elsewhere.

Do you want both material gain and challenge? Then go and do a vet Trial or vMA. There is already a lot of content that casual players virtually cannot access.

datgladiatah wrote: »

This is why they aren't even trying on Murkmire.

But they're going to definitely try on Summerset Isles, I know it!

...Oh wasn't this where we just posted an opinion and label it as fact?

Or was it an alternate fact?

datgladiatah wrote: »

Clearly you guys just want more crappy RNG zones where you can try and fail to get motifs for months while I repeat the same 5 vet trials every week.

More alternate fact fun.

datgladiatah wrote: »

This is what makes me want to leave.

Can I have your stuff?

datgladiatah wrote: »

I'm not getting a TES experience at all and people who don't even play the game for a fun RPG experience want to ruin it so they can tediously grind new toons for days. But hey, at least you can tediously grind in EVERY available zone, right?

Ironic since casual questers are exactly the people who actually pay attention to the RPG part of the game; the storyline and lore rather than the mechanics of each mob.

What you're essentially saying here is "I'm bored with the game and people who enjoy the game as it is are ruining the game for me! Wah!" Is it really that big of a shock that the world doesn't revolve around you sweetheart?

ToRelax

Illurian wrote: »

datgladiatah wrote: »

It was nerfed to fit with the scope of One Tamriel, and it was nerfed because it was unpopular due to REQUIRING a group for most content.

When you say "requiring a group" you really just mean that it was tediously difficult for the majority. There were no mechanics (that I recall) that required more than 1 person to accomplish or it would hard fail (such as having to stand on two separate stepping stones to open a door), so do not make it seem as such. The only difficulty in the map was the sheer power and toughness of the mobs/bosses. Dungeons strictly speaking "require a group" but many of us (myself included) are more than capable of soloing most 4 man vet dungeons (that do not possess a multi-person mechanic such as the aforementioned stone stepping) .

Did I misunderstand something? I thought this was about Craglorn, which had several doors that you could only open with several players who were all on the same quest stage.

Illurian

ToRelax wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

datgladiatah wrote: »

It was nerfed to fit with the scope of One Tamriel, and it was nerfed because it was unpopular due to REQUIRING a group for most content.

When you say "requiring a group" you really just mean that it was tediously difficult for the majority. There were no mechanics (that I recall) that required more than 1 person to accomplish or it would hard fail (such as having to stand on two separate stepping stones to open a door), so do not make it seem as such. The only difficulty in the map was the sheer power and toughness of the mobs/bosses. Dungeons strictly speaking "require a group" but many of us (myself included) are more than capable of soloing most 4 man vet dungeons (that do not possess a multi-person mechanic such as the aforementioned stone stepping) .

Did I misunderstand something? I thought this was about Craglorn, which had several doors that you could only open with several players who were all on the same quest stage.

I'll admit that I don't remember that. Apologies if it's inaccurate. Feel free to disregard that paragraph.

My point still stands, however.

RebornV3x

I have to agree the overland content is easier than its ever been

Jade1986

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

And to demonstrate, I will post a video in a bit, lvl 7, with absolute garbage gear, no drinks, no pots, in CwC, no cp, and only a tiny bit of magicka allocated. And you are seriously telling me this isnt too easy? O.o

yes, I'm seriously telling you that this isn't too easy. yes I'm seriously telling you that if difficulty slider isn't happening - and if by your claim veteran zones stay empty? the difficulty has to stay where it is.

Right, 10 minuts till video.

honestly? i don't care. you can get through the content and not die. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. being able to get through the content without dying constantly or being on the verge of dying is NOT a bad thing. you happen to think CWC is too easy. and I happen to think its just right. and the only way for use to get what we both want is a difficulty slide which you while claiming you are fine with, also make up excuses why it would never happen, EVEN THOUGH THIS VERY GAME ORIGINALLY CAME WITH A DIFFICULTY SLIDER. so its already built into the system. which tells me you don't actualy want difficulty slider.

I would be totally cool with a difficulty slider, and if there was one originally built in, I was unaware, instead of throwing a tantrum at me and putting me up on the cross, maybe explain, and provide proof of said slider and its former existance.

and maybe before you make claims and excuses about how difficulty slider is impossible to brush it off in order to push overall increased difficulty - you could do some research?

originally, before they switched to cp system only and eventually one tamriel - while leveling you only had acess to your own faction zones. you had to finish faction story, to do Cadwell's silver and gold, aka stories of other factions. silver and gold are still in game, but its no longer necessary to do them, to acess other faction zones. but what they also did is made those zones progressively more difficult. as in each overworld zone came in 3 difficulties. veteran as a difficulty still exists for dungeons and trials. but all zones are now normalized in order to open them up ala prior elder scrolls games where once you do the tutorial, you could do anything - anywhere.

moreover, speaking of remnants of difficulty sliders. in veteran dungeons, there exists a mechanic on a lst boss where by clicking a scroll on the ground? you make that boss harder. its what's known as hard mode.

in some fashion, difficulty sliders are still in game. and there used to be more of them. but .... even before one tamriel, ESO was nerfed. again and again. because it was losing players. most people don't actualy want harder. well unless they can show off how much better they are then other people, just becasue they completed something on harder difficulty. otherwise, developers wouldn't need to keep adding extra rewards for doing things on harder difficulty.

Well, that really isnt a difficulty slider, that is just preset levels for areas. As much as I did like that , it really bothered me the restrictions you had on questing. When I think difficulty slider I think skyrim, or even more extreme oblivion. I think if they were to keep the overland content as is, and just made bosses more difficult, like they should be, then people would be happy , but even they are pitifully easy atm, making quests incredibly anticlimactic. I am looking at you Morrowind final boss. There needs to be a happy medium, because as it is atm, its just a walk in, not even the park, its a walk through , its not even a walk.

uh. that's basically how difficulty sliders tend to work. you chose a difficulty and then that's the stable difficulty you get. unless you switch up or down.

and again, your experience =/= everyone's experience.

Jade1986 wrote: »

Enemoriana wrote: »

Hands off story zones, DLC or not. Quest and delves should be easy. It's ok for low-level character to search help once or twice, but not often. Many players are not "MMO players", they are "Elder Scrolls players". They want new story and lore, but they don't want constantly play in group. It's great that nearly all story is available to everybody, no matter which level and skill they have.
Special mode for those who want difficulty - ok, though I don't believe that can become real, but more difficulty to everybody - no, no, no.
More mechanics - interesting for old players, too much for new, who don't know even basic.
More health and damage - battle won't become more difficult and interesting, they'll become long and boring.

Not so long ago created characters with class I never played before. That. Was. Pain.

People said the exact same thing about SWTOR " SWTOR players are Kotor players, not mmo players "

Yet, difficulty dropped, focus went to story content , playerbase evaporated. People are not as soft as you guys think. And I created a argo

Illurian wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Saying the casuals should have to learn their class through adversity is saying screw them? I guess that is how the world works now a days. Heaven forbid people die in a video game. Just wow. Continue to crucify me for wanting to appeal to a wider audience aside from the god mode crowd. And making a zone veteran mode is just a dumb suggestion, no one would do it, which is why a moderate buff to general difficulty would benefit everyone. Casual players would advance in skill, and ask for help, and older players would feel an actual accomplishment going against that ultimate boss in the quest line. But seriously, keep calling me names , go ahead. Really just proving my point.

First of all, stop right there. Do not attempt to insult my intelligence along with everyone else's who reads your post by playing the victim here. Nowhere did I "call you names" or "crucify" you.

Secondly, good job evading my points once again about how your "small buff" idea is not a feasible one, by not addressing it entirely.

Lastly, I find it ironic that you are essentially telling casuals to "grow up and git gud" when you yourself fold under the first sign of an intellectual debate, instantly playing the victim.

I'll repeat your words back at you, paraphrased to make it more appropriate: Saying that I do not agree with your idea is crucifying you and calling you names? I guess that is how the world works nowadays. Heaven forbid people disagree on a video game. Just wow.

Really, calling me arrogant and selfish and being passive aggressive acting like I want to cast out everyone who is a casual gamer? Yeah, that is in fact insulting and crucifying me.lol. Also, I would like to see where I told people to grow up, again, another person putting words in my mouth. And how is saying people should learn their classes through adversity a -bad- thing? Is that really an insult now a days? There is no intellectual debate with you people, it is " The game has to stay super easy or the game will implode on itself " or bust. That's it.

Enemoriana wrote: »

Hands off story zones, DLC or not. Quest and delves should be easy. It's ok for low-level character to search help once or twice, but not often. Many players are not "MMO players", they are "Elder Scrolls players". They want new story and lore, but they don't want constantly play in group. It's great that nearly all story is available to everybody, no matter which level and skill they have.
Special mode for those who want difficulty - ok, though I don't believe that can become real, but more difficulty to everybody - no, no, no.
More mechanics - interesting for old players, too much for new, who don't know even basic.
More health and damage - battle won't become more difficult and interesting, they'll become long and boring.

Not so long ago created characters with class I never played before. That. Was. Pain.

People said the exact same thing about SWTOR " SWTOR players are Kotor players, not mmo players "

Yet, difficulty dropped, focus went to story content , playerbase evaporated. People are not as soft as you guys think. And I created a argonian nb recently, and the game is stupid easy, not a pain at all.

Milvan wrote: »

I wish overland content could at least teach new players how to do a proper rotation.

The amount of people that hits cp690 with less than 20k parse is too damn high.

Agreed. But remember we are monsters for wanting people to learn rotation, and be able to learn + read tooltips.

Illurian wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Illurian

It’s the same principle though. Imagine a veteran mode zone that gave gold jewelry for example, but was on the difficulty of a DLC HM dungeon. The cries for nerfs would be deafening.

I would argue otherwise. That's how veteran dungeons already work. You can only get purple jewelry in veteran dungeons, but few to no casuals are crying for nerfs to that.

In my experience, casual players do not care much for the gear that they have. One of the reasons why they fall under the term "casual".

You can go through the whole game in white lvl 10 gear without breaking a sweat. soooo.......I have already posted and proven that.

once. again
STOP spreading misinformation.

1. swtor was never particularly hard. in fact - with scaling people down in some ways it was made harder, as you could no longer go back to old zones to solo world bosses or go into hardmode flashpoints and solo them for variety of rewards, decorations mostly.
2. swtor started losing its player when it STOPPED RELEASING CONTENT outside of very short, VERY linear story. becasue even story players? didn't want something THAT linear. they wanted class content and choices. they got on rails story that only really works with force users, preferably light sided ones. difficulty of content had NOTHING to do with it. LACK of content did.
3. I must have missed a video where you are easily questing on a lvl 50 non cp character in level 10 gear >_>
4. you have to make up your mind here. are vet dungeons too difficult to you? or can you pull that 20k+ parse after all? becasue if you can do that parse and apparently you are good enough to compensate for lack of health etc with avoiding damage? how in a bloody world are veteran dungeons difficult for you when most of them are just doable for me and my parse is half that??? and before "you are being carried" gets brought up. I'm usually around 40% of the total group damage done (this includes the tank, and healer btw). though there were a few times where i was at 60% or more. and we even got a few speed runs/hardmodes in there. but I digress. if you can pull above 20k? you are NOT by any means and average player.


P.S. animation canceling is the real cancer of this game.

Excellent summary and spot on. I played SWToR from beta up until September when I finally got fed up with it and started ESO. I seriously don't know where she is getting this information about people leaving cause it was too easy. Your summation is accurate as to why the game took the massive hit in population.

And I'm glad you caught what she said with your point 4. How can you complain about the game being too easy if you aren't even playing the content that is made specifically for you? Or better yet. Saying said content is too difficult? I don't get it.

I have said multiple times that I am not a super leet player, and would even go so and say I am a casual gamer myself. Which is why it bothers me when people corrolate "casual" with " unable , or unwilling to learn mechanics " . You can be a casual gamer and still be able to learn mechanics without them being shoved into your face. That doesnt change the fact that overland is too easy. And where did I ever say vet dungeons are too easy? Simple, I didnt. So telling me to make up my mind is just silly. Read the title. It doesnt say CwC AND ALL DUNGEONS AND TRIALS are too easy, it says Cwc pointlessly easy. Do not put words in my mouth.

And where I got my information, personal experience with swtor. People were whining about the difficulty ( i said clearly it isnt the only reason peope left )for the longest time. Then kotfe and kotet hit and that was the nail i nthe coffin for people , not me, but for people that were already fed up with how they dumbed the game down. The game used to be MUCH more difficult when the exp was lower and ppl werent constantly over leveling everything. I was part of several very popular and old guilds and they all just bombed out after kotfe, kotet, and galactic command. 300 active members? Not anymore! maybe 20. But from talking on fleet, with guilds, in flashpoints, on forums , the general consensus is what I said.

datgladiatah

Illurian wrote: »

datgladiatah wrote: »

It was nerfed to fit with the scope of One Tamriel, and it was nerfed because it was unpopular due to REQUIRING a group for most content.

When you say "requiring a group" you really just mean that it was tediously difficult for the majority. There were no mechanics (that I recall) that required more than 1 person to accomplish or it would hard fail (such as having to stand on two separate stepping stones to open a door), so do not make it seem as such. The only difficulty in the map was the sheer power and toughness of the mobs/bosses. Dungeons strictly speaking "require a group" but many of us (myself included) are more than capable of soloing most 4 man vet dungeons (that do not possess a multi-person mechanic such as the aforementioned stone stepping) .

datgladiatah wrote: »

Which is 100% my point.

What point? I'm not sure why you quoted me as I wasn't even partaking in a discussion with you.

datgladiatah wrote: »

Craglorn is a pretty filled zone in Belkarth

This is pedantic but Belkarth is a town in Craglorn.

datgladiatah wrote: »

Craglorn is a pretty filled zone in Belkarth and I constantly see people farming spellscar, doing dailies, or trying to get nirncrux. The only reason people don't quest there that often is because 1. it's often too difficult for a pre-cp character to play in, which is the point, and 2. because the sets and rewards are so godawful there that most vet players don't want to waste time. No skillpoint rewards. Terrible RNG on motifs. It's not worth putting your effort in that when I can gain much more fast questing in zones like Stonefalls.

Your only point here is about material gain, not personal success. You don't care that it's difficult, you only care that it doesn't have as good rewards. This is a separate issue entirely.

datgladiatah wrote: »

All my characters are there to do writs. You don't need to be there for writs anymore, and yet I constantly see open zone chat discussion, far more than any zone outside capital cities. This idea that it's not popular or didn't work after OT is ridiculous and I don't see how any veteran player wouldn't want more zones like it when the challenge and the mechanics of the bosses actually make it fun.

So is your argument for fun or material gain? If you're all about having fun, what's wrong with doing Craglorn now, since, by your words, it's already difficult for pre-cp characters? If it's material gain, go and farm elsewhere, since as you said, you can get better rewards elsewhere.

Do you want both material gain and challenge? Then go and do a vet Trial or vMA. There is already a lot of content that casual players virtually cannot access.

datgladiatah wrote: »

This is why they aren't even trying on Murkmire.

But they're going to definitely try on Summerset Isles, I know it!

...Oh wasn't this where we just posted an opinion and label it as fact?

Or was it an alternate fact?

datgladiatah wrote: »

Clearly you guys just want more crappy RNG zones where you can try and fail to get motifs for months while I repeat the same 5 vet trials every week.

More alternate fact fun.

datgladiatah wrote: »

This is what makes me want to leave.

Can I have your stuff?

datgladiatah wrote: »

I'm not getting a TES experience at all and people who don't even play the game for a fun RPG experience want to ruin it so they can tediously grind new toons for days. But hey, at least you can tediously grind in EVERY available zone, right?

Ironic since casual questers are exactly the people who actually pay attention to the RPG part of the game; the storyline and lore rather than the mechanics of each mob.

What you're essentially saying here is "I'm bored with the game and people who enjoy the game as it is are ruining the game for me! Wah!" Is it really that big of a shock that the world doesn't revolve around you sweetheart?

It's pretty lame when a dude who's been condescending the whole thread misinterprets everything a person says because it doesn't fit into their opinion. Suffice it to say, if the game was more fun, it wouldn't be so difficult to persuade people to try it. But I know a lot of hardcore gamers and the simplicity of the base game is boring. The 'hardcore' aspect is all multiplayer MMO concepts, NOT the difficulty of a TES game. When 90% of non-repeatable concept is streamlined into one concept like in OT, not only does it feel repetitive, it gets easy. I don't know why that makes me seem entitled to you 'sweetheart', but I'd enjoy it a lot more if it was actually a fun single player experience. Neither me, my boyfriend, or any of my friends played it together for more than 5 minutes. I'd do dungeons alone and get shittalked into looking into guides because, once again, the overworld content is so easy it doesn't show you anything about mechanics or rotation and assumes that the only reason you're gaining power is to go do multiplayer content.

I already talked about trials and vet content. We all have. It's unrelated to overworld content. Why can't overworld content have challenging aspects to it, or challenging zones, rather than being the exact same thing across the board? That's why I had fun with Craglorn content. I don't personally care that it doesn't have good rewards. I'm just saying no one's going to farm a zone if it has bad sets, especially if it's generally more challenging because the challenge isn't worth the cost. Other people in the thread said the zone wasn't popular, I pointed out that NA Belkarth is very active as is Spellscar, that's all that was about.

But like yeah bro I'm just a selfish player that wants to benefit myself, not a person who notices a trend with people I know reacting to the easiness of this game negatively or how all the veteran content is gatekeeped between hundreds of hours of the exact same gameplay that teaches nothing about it. You really don't see a gameplay flaw there?

DieAlteHexe

Flameheart wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Another option would be to create a char in good old Everquest. This game is still unbeaten when it comes to dangerous and harsh solo play.

Final Fantasy XI would like to have a word with you.

EQ was positively solo-friendly compared to it. (and it was amazing ...)

I admit that I never played a FF game, but I remember sweaty moments where my corpse in EQ was about to dissolve, because there was no chance of ever getting my corpse (with the gear of 3 years playing on it) back with a naked run because of the dangerousness of the (over world) location and the "friendly" necromancer - smelling the desperation - wanted loads of k of platinum from me to summon it to my feet :-)

I had a corpse *poof* to the point where the GMs couldn't even find it. Years worth of work, gone.

Don't miss nonsense like that. Nope.

MasterSpatula

I tried to get caught up on this thread, but boy did it devolve.

"Potato."
"No-Goods."
"Godmode crowd."
"Whiners."
"HOW DARE YOU CALL ME ARROGANT!"

SquareSausage

People asking for harder overland probably don't even do overland content.


The only reasons i'm in overland is on my crafter farming mats with no food buff on, i like to be able to kill them in 2 heavies of a resto thank you.

or

Grinding a new char to 50 as fast as possible. Making mob packs harder would just quite literally be an even bigger reason not to role a new dude.

nerf overland plix.

Jade1986

SquareSausage wrote: »

People asking for harder overland probably don't even do overland content.


The only reasons i'm in overland is on my crafter farming mats with no food buff on, i like to be able to kill them in 2 heavies of a resto thank you.

or

Grinding a new char to 50 as fast as possible. Making mob packs harder would just quite literally be an even bigger reason not to role a new dude.

nerf overland plix.

Wut? I spend most of my time in overland except for weekends when I pvp. Takes eons to find groups as a dps. And 6 of my 8 toons are dps.

And how on earth would you nerf over land? Make them sing at you?

Kiralyn2000

I'm just curious how someone could "learn rotations" on any kind of reasonable overland content. To actually have time for rotations to happen, you need a large HP pool on mobs & you need a tank distracting it (so that you're not spending a bunch of time dodging/defending/healing/etc). An overland with mobs like that would be a terrible slog, even for decent players - slowly wading through endless high-HP meatwalls is an awful play experience that drives people away. It's boring.



...hmm. Maybe I'm thinking about the need of a tank to have any chance to do a rotation, because I tend towards ranged-n-kite characters, not facetank ones. Still not sure how one is supposed to learn a rotation while soloing general content. That's dungeon/group stuff. I'm having a hard time thinking of an MMO I've played where the general overland (not defined "elite"/group zones) needed that kind of fighting.

Jade1986

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I'm just curious how someone could "learn rotations" on any kind of reasonable overland content. To actually have time for rotations to happen, you need a large HP pool on mobs & you need a tank distracting it (so that you're not spending a bunch of time dodging/defending/healing/etc). An overland with mobs like that would be a terrible slog, even for decent players - slowly wading through endless high-HP meatwalls is an awful play experience that drives people away. It's boring.



...hmm. Maybe I'm thinking about the need of a tank to have any chance to do a rotation, because I tend towards ranged-n-kite characters, not facetank ones. Still not sure how one is supposed to learn a rotation while soloing general content. That's dungeon/group stuff. I'm having a hard time thinking of an MMO I've played where the general overland (not defined "elite"/group zones) needed that kind of fighting.

Make bosses bosses. That is how. The most recent dlc bosses have been....really....really.....REALLY easy. Except for that duo in that one public dungeon in Vvardenfell that CCs the ever living oblivion out of you. Overland content shouldnt be so easy that we can breath and kill them, but it also shouldnt e so difficult that they one shot you. Happy medium is best.

Doctordarkspawn

Jade1986 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I'm just curious how someone could "learn rotations" on any kind of reasonable overland content. To actually have time for rotations to happen, you need a large HP pool on mobs & you need a tank distracting it (so that you're not spending a bunch of time dodging/defending/healing/etc). An overland with mobs like that would be a terrible slog, even for decent players - slowly wading through endless high-HP meatwalls is an awful play experience that drives people away. It's boring.



...hmm. Maybe I'm thinking about the need of a tank to have any chance to do a rotation, because I tend towards ranged-n-kite characters, not facetank ones. Still not sure how one is supposed to learn a rotation while soloing general content. That's dungeon/group stuff. I'm having a hard time thinking of an MMO I've played where the general overland (not defined "elite"/group zones) needed that kind of fighting.

Make bosses bosses. That is how. The most recent dlc bosses have been....really....really.....REALLY easy. Except for that duo in that one public dungeon in Vvardenfell that CCs the ever living oblivion out of you. Overland content shouldnt be so easy that we can breath and kill them, but it also shouldnt e so difficult that they one shot you. Happy medium is best.

And yet the happy medium does not give the slightest idea of how to create a rotation, what general foruma for rotation works in ESO.

Lets face it. It's not gonna work, and the more people push for people to get good through forced adversity, the less appealing the game is going to be.

This game isn't good enough for the difficutly on the scale you want. Stop trying to fit a square peg in a square hole.

Doctordarkspawn

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I tried to get caught up on this thread, but boy did it devolve.

"Potato."
"No-Goods."
"Godmode crowd."
"Whiners."
"HOW DARE YOU CALL ME ARROGANT!"

They're selfish children. When they dont get what they want, they call people names and throw a tantrum.

This isn't new, and they'll never stop.

Jarryzzt

Flameheart wrote: »

Another option would be to create a char in good old Everquest. This game is still unbeaten when it comes to dangerous and harsh solo play.

Clearly someone hasn't tried solo no-sec or lo-sec fun in EVE...That can be harsh. [Hell, even hi-sec can be harsh if you're not paying attention.]

---

I have a sneaking suspicion that ZOS looks at server-side stats on a regular basis. Which, among other things, should give it a real-time picture of how many players are doing which content at what character (and hence power) level.

I also suspect their philosophy (now) is to let most players access most content irrespective of. I.e. casuals are the wave of the future, hardcore super-elite-top-tier-gear players are...there just aren't enough of them to cause ZOS to tweak the difficulty back. For now.

The same for future DLC. To justify the investment of money and developers one needs to show that the DLC will generate revenue == you have to play up to the casuals == you know what happens with difficulty. Which - to be sure - isn't a bad thing for the game, since even hardcore super-elite-top-tier-gear players can just go and grind VMA naked, or - shocker - roll a brand new character on a new server (i.e. no massive backlog of gear and crafting materials).

Doctordarkspawn

Jarryzzt wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

Another option would be to create a char in good old Everquest. This game is still unbeaten when it comes to dangerous and harsh solo play.

Clearly someone hasn't tried solo no-sec or lo-sec fun in EVE...That can be harsh. [Hell, even hi-sec can be harsh if you're not paying attention.]

---

I have a sneaking suspicion that ZOS looks at server-side stats on a regular basis. Which, among other things, should give it a real-time picture of how many players are doing which content at what character (and hence power) level.

I also suspect their philosophy (now) is to let most players access most content irrespective of. I.e. casuals are the wave of the future, hardcore super-elite-top-tier-gear players are...there just aren't enough of them to cause ZOS to tweak the difficulty back. For now.

The same for future DLC. To justify the investment of money and developers one needs to show that the DLC will generate revenue == you have to play up to the casuals == you know what happens with difficulty. Which - to be sure - isn't a bad thing for the game, since even hardcore super-elite-top-tier-gear players can just go and grind VMA naked, or - shocker - roll a brand new character on a new server (i.e. no massive backlog of gear and crafting materials).

"For now".

Watch the series 'the death of a game' on youtube, that demographic comes in at some very predictable points when games start to die. They're usually the snake eating it's tail.

There wont -ever- be enough of them to compensate for the players they tend to drive off. And this is why I hate threads like these. We've seen this story before.

ArchMikem

Turelus wrote: »

I recently took the time to help a random player who whispered me. They were level 20 in Morrowind and doing the quest where you fight to guy to get the staff back. They told me they'd been there for two hours and couldn't beat it so they wanted help.

I went in and helped, holding back so he got a good sense of achievement and afterwards they told me how crazy powerful I was. I simply explained it was level, build and knowledge. Then proceeded to teach them some mechanics to help them out.

That's always a really humbling experience, especially to an Endgamer like me who is still incredibly subpar to the true "Meta Builds" people in the game. A lot of the time we don't realize what that statement means, cause we just believe everything is too easy or simple, but it's truly not for a lot of low levels.

There's a side quest in Stormhaven, by that Lighthouse about the Dunmer Slaver Pirates. The Duo Boss in that beached ship was just absolutely kicking my ass every attempt I made, and I was even a Vet level. I had to go outside, run around looking for other players. I found a higher level guy, put in my headset and in Area asked if he could help me with this hard Boss. He followed me back, and he just annihilated in seconds what was giving me so much trouble on my own. It's been nearly two years since and I haven't forgotten that.

zaria

ToRelax wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

datgladiatah wrote: »

It was nerfed to fit with the scope of One Tamriel, and it was nerfed because it was unpopular due to REQUIRING a group for most content.

When you say "requiring a group" you really just mean that it was tediously difficult for the majority. There were no mechanics (that I recall) that required more than 1 person to accomplish or it would hard fail (such as having to stand on two separate stepping stones to open a door), so do not make it seem as such. The only difficulty in the map was the sheer power and toughness of the mobs/bosses. Dungeons strictly speaking "require a group" but many of us (myself included) are more than capable of soloing most 4 man vet dungeons (that do not possess a multi-person mechanic such as the aforementioned stone stepping) .

Did I misunderstand something? I thought this was about Craglorn, which had several doors that you could only open with several players who were all on the same quest stage.

This and that with the same quest stage was an major mistake, they should handle it like dungeon quests

Jade1986

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I'm just curious how someone could "learn rotations" on any kind of reasonable overland content. To actually have time for rotations to happen, you need a large HP pool on mobs & you need a tank distracting it (so that you're not spending a bunch of time dodging/defending/healing/etc). An overland with mobs like that would be a terrible slog, even for decent players - slowly wading through endless high-HP meatwalls is an awful play experience that drives people away. It's boring.



...hmm. Maybe I'm thinking about the need of a tank to have any chance to do a rotation, because I tend towards ranged-n-kite characters, not facetank ones. Still not sure how one is supposed to learn a rotation while soloing general content. That's dungeon/group stuff. I'm having a hard time thinking of an MMO I've played where the general overland (not defined "elite"/group zones) needed that kind of fighting.

Make bosses bosses. That is how. The most recent dlc bosses have been....really....really.....REALLY easy. Except for that duo in that one public dungeon in Vvardenfell that CCs the ever living oblivion out of you. Overland content shouldnt be so easy that we can breath and kill them, but it also shouldnt e so difficult that they one shot you. Happy medium is best.

And yet the happy medium does not give the slightest idea of how to create a rotation, what general foruma for rotation works in ESO.

Lets face it. It's not gonna work, and the more people push for people to get good through forced adversity, the less appealing the game is going to be.

This game isn't good enough for the difficutly on the scale you want. Stop trying to fit a square peg in a square hole.

You really like to call people names and twist words dont you?

You learn basic mechanics through overland content, which atm, doesnt even teach you that. You have the possibility to learn rotation, or you could, if bosses were a bit more difficult. It really baffles me how you seem to think that it either has to be insanely easy, or it has to be so hard everyone quits the game. There is a happy medium, but you arent even open to that. It is your way, or if anyone has a differing opinion, name call, make assumptions over peoples personalities and character, or twist words to make your opinion make sense.

SquareSausage

Overland no matter the difficulty will never teach you a rotation. If its easy it will die to quick, if its too hard, you will be kiting/shielding and not even doing a rotation.

That will happen when you start doing dungeons, specifically vet dungeons when a tank can hold the boss still.

If you are a poor player you will expose yourself to better players and if you have any shred of self worth will then strive to become better, and seek information from guild members or online.



So yes the content is easy, who cares, not everyone wants a challenge when farming crafting mats or doing quests or collecting skyshards. The real game for most people is beyond this level anyway so why get knickers in a twist.

Doctordarkspawn

Jade1986 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I'm just curious how someone could "learn rotations" on any kind of reasonable overland content. To actually have time for rotations to happen, you need a large HP pool on mobs & you need a tank distracting it (so that you're not spending a bunch of time dodging/defending/healing/etc). An overland with mobs like that would be a terrible slog, even for decent players - slowly wading through endless high-HP meatwalls is an awful play experience that drives people away. It's boring.



...hmm. Maybe I'm thinking about the need of a tank to have any chance to do a rotation, because I tend towards ranged-n-kite characters, not facetank ones. Still not sure how one is supposed to learn a rotation while soloing general content. That's dungeon/group stuff. I'm having a hard time thinking of an MMO I've played where the general overland (not defined "elite"/group zones) needed that kind of fighting.

Make bosses bosses. That is how. The most recent dlc bosses have been....really....really.....REALLY easy. Except for that duo in that one public dungeon in Vvardenfell that CCs the ever living oblivion out of you. Overland content shouldnt be so easy that we can breath and kill them, but it also shouldnt e so difficult that they one shot you. Happy medium is best.

And yet the happy medium does not give the slightest idea of how to create a rotation, what general foruma for rotation works in ESO.

Lets face it. It's not gonna work, and the more people push for people to get good through forced adversity, the less appealing the game is going to be.

This game isn't good enough for the difficutly on the scale you want. Stop trying to fit a square peg in a square hole.

You really like to call people names and twist words dont you?

You learn basic mechanics through overland content, which atm, doesnt even teach you that. You have the possibility to learn rotation, or you could, if bosses were a bit more difficult. It really baffles me how you seem to think that it either has to be insanely easy, or it has to be so hard everyone quits the game. There is a happy medium, but you arent even open to that. It is your way, or if anyone has a differing opinion, name call, make assumptions over peoples personalities and character, or twist words to make your opinion make sense.

I dont twist your words. I make your -intent- clear.

You want people to suffer at a difficulty range you think acceptable in the excuse that it'll teach them to be better at the game. It wont. People need direction, not an arbitrary raise in difficulty. They need to learn how to master the system, which, at this point, is either, you click with it, or you dont. And it's allways been like that. The only way to counter that, is specific tutorials on how the devs want you to play classes, and that'd require them to have a plan. And they do not.

But then again it's never about that. It's about you geting content that only you can accomplish, or forcing everyone else to 'git gud' through a pre-approved gauntlet. It's ego driven. it allways has been. Either you want more, or you want others to have less.

Furthermore, it baffles me how much you care so little about what other people want or need that you continue to push this proposal. It baffles me that your entitled to anything more than your fair share. It baffles me that you think that when -you- open a thread and want something, you should automatically get it, then villify anyone who calls for say, a VMA nerf.

It baffles me how much you want to take, and how little you want to give. So dont give me that 'how little your open to it' shpeil. Your mentality started this. You deserve this. And you'll keep geting this.

Jade1986

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I'm just curious how someone could "learn rotations" on any kind of reasonable overland content. To actually have time for rotations to happen, you need a large HP pool on mobs & you need a tank distracting it (so that you're not spending a bunch of time dodging/defending/healing/etc). An overland with mobs like that would be a terrible slog, even for decent players - slowly wading through endless high-HP meatwalls is an awful play experience that drives people away. It's boring.



...hmm. Maybe I'm thinking about the need of a tank to have any chance to do a rotation, because I tend towards ranged-n-kite characters, not facetank ones. Still not sure how one is supposed to learn a rotation while soloing general content. That's dungeon/group stuff. I'm having a hard time thinking of an MMO I've played where the general overland (not defined "elite"/group zones) needed that kind of fighting.

Make bosses bosses. That is how. The most recent dlc bosses have been....really....really.....REALLY easy. Except for that duo in that one public dungeon in Vvardenfell that CCs the ever living oblivion out of you. Overland content shouldnt be so easy that we can breath and kill them, but it also shouldnt e so difficult that they one shot you. Happy medium is best.

And yet the happy medium does not give the slightest idea of how to create a rotation, what general foruma for rotation works in ESO.

Lets face it. It's not gonna work, and the more people push for people to get good through forced adversity, the less appealing the game is going to be.

This game isn't good enough for the difficutly on the scale you want. Stop trying to fit a square peg in a square hole.

You really like to call people names and twist words dont you?

You learn basic mechanics through overland content, which atm, doesnt even teach you that. You have the possibility to learn rotation, or you could, if bosses were a bit more difficult. It really baffles me how you seem to think that it either has to be insanely easy, or it has to be so hard everyone quits the game. There is a happy medium, but you arent even open to that. It is your way, or if anyone has a differing opinion, name call, make assumptions over peoples personalities and character, or twist words to make your opinion make sense.

I dont twist your words. I make your -intent- clear.

You want people to suffer at a difficulty range you think acceptable in the excuse that it'll teach them to be better at the game. It wont. People need direction, not an arbitrary raise in difficulty. They need to learn how to master the system, which, at this point, is either, you click with it, or you dont. And it's allways been like that. The only way to counter that, is specific tutorials on how the devs want you to play classes, and that'd require them to have a plan. And they do not.

Furthermore, it baffles me how much you care so little about what other people want or need that you continue to push this proposal. It baffles me that your entitled to anything more than your fair share. It baffles me that you think that when -you- open a thread and want something, you should automatically get it, then villify anyone who calls for say, a VMA nerf.

It baffles me how much you want to take, and how little you want to give.

Right, you know my intent better than I do. That just says it all right there and makes it clear replying to, or even reading your posts is pointless from this point out. The highlighted portion made it even clearer that you once again are twisting words to suit your agenda. Seriously, get help.

Doctordarkspawn

Jade1986 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I'm just curious how someone could "learn rotations" on any kind of reasonable overland content. To actually have time for rotations to happen, you need a large HP pool on mobs & you need a tank distracting it (so that you're not spending a bunch of time dodging/defending/healing/etc). An overland with mobs like that would be a terrible slog, even for decent players - slowly wading through endless high-HP meatwalls is an awful play experience that drives people away. It's boring.



...hmm. Maybe I'm thinking about the need of a tank to have any chance to do a rotation, because I tend towards ranged-n-kite characters, not facetank ones. Still not sure how one is supposed to learn a rotation while soloing general content. That's dungeon/group stuff. I'm having a hard time thinking of an MMO I've played where the general overland (not defined "elite"/group zones) needed that kind of fighting.

Make bosses bosses. That is how. The most recent dlc bosses have been....really....really.....REALLY easy. Except for that duo in that one public dungeon in Vvardenfell that CCs the ever living oblivion out of you. Overland content shouldnt be so easy that we can breath and kill them, but it also shouldnt e so difficult that they one shot you. Happy medium is best.

And yet the happy medium does not give the slightest idea of how to create a rotation, what general foruma for rotation works in ESO.

Lets face it. It's not gonna work, and the more people push for people to get good through forced adversity, the less appealing the game is going to be.

This game isn't good enough for the difficutly on the scale you want. Stop trying to fit a square peg in a square hole.

You really like to call people names and twist words dont you?

You learn basic mechanics through overland content, which atm, doesnt even teach you that. You have the possibility to learn rotation, or you could, if bosses were a bit more difficult. It really baffles me how you seem to think that it either has to be insanely easy, or it has to be so hard everyone quits the game. There is a happy medium, but you arent even open to that. It is your way, or if anyone has a differing opinion, name call, make assumptions over peoples personalities and character, or twist words to make your opinion make sense.

I dont twist your words. I make your -intent- clear.

You want people to suffer at a difficulty range you think acceptable in the excuse that it'll teach them to be better at the game. It wont. People need direction, not an arbitrary raise in difficulty. They need to learn how to master the system, which, at this point, is either, you click with it, or you dont. And it's allways been like that. The only way to counter that, is specific tutorials on how the devs want you to play classes, and that'd require them to have a plan. And they do not.

Furthermore, it baffles me how much you care so little about what other people want or need that you continue to push this proposal. It baffles me that your entitled to anything more than your fair share. It baffles me that you think that when -you- open a thread and want something, you should automatically get it, then villify anyone who calls for say, a VMA nerf.

It baffles me how much you want to take, and how little you want to give.

Right, you know my intent better than I do. That just says it all right there and makes it clear replying to, or even reading your posts is pointless from this point out. The highlighted portion made it even clearer that you once again are twisting words to suit your agenda. Seriously, get help.

Agenda? That's new. I'm flattered you think I'm some sort of cult leader but quite frankly people dont lisen to me enough for that. I'd -like- for them to, but they dont. C'est la vie.

Though, completely dismissing me when I start outlining what your mentality traditionally wants and calls for....yeah, little suspect. I rest my case.

You boys started this, by constantly demanding the game cater itself to your interests. You deserve this. You will get nothing but this.

phileunderx2

It is true that most of the overland content is not terribly difficult as it should be. New players should be able to progress so that they don't get discouraged and quit. There are places for a lowbie that can be difficult to clear and not necessarily boss battles. Imo one of the more difficult encounters I have come across while playing a low level character is the skyshard in Garlas Agea in the Gold Coast.
There are 3 mobs guarding it and they can be tough if you don't know how to handle it.

Jade1986

phileunderx2 wrote: »

It is true that most of the overland content is not terribly difficult as it should be. New players should be able to progress so that they don't get discouraged and quit. There are places for a lowbie that can be difficult to clear and not necessarily boss battles. Imo one of the more difficult encounters I have come across while playing a low level character is the skyshard in Garlas Agea in the Gold Coast.
There are 3 mobs guarding it and they can be tough if you don't know how to handle it.

Thats one of the thing the OP was talking about. DLC zones should be tougher than starter zones. If you want to start there from lvl 5 , you have the freedom to do that, but those zones should be a few steps more difficult than Khenarthis roost.

exeeter702

I want to comment on those that the stance of "overland should be easy because its telling a story, not trying to challenge players".

Frankly a game ceases to be a game and becomes an experience when it no longer attempts at challenging players and creating very clear win conditions. The power discrepancy between brand new players and max cp players are huge and 1 tam has done this no favors and yes.... that is unfortunate.

You risk the integrity of a game when you coddle players even at the most basic level (overland content in eso). How many times have you gone through a quest line and reach the boss who was been built up as an intimidating enemy only to have pathetic flaccid victory which presented no threat whatsoever. And honeslty im talking about personal experiences playing through the game back at launch, not as a max cp chatacter running around post 1T.

I recently made a brand new character and played through cwc without having spent my cp or gave him gear, just to see how the experience would go and the only inhibitor was a lack of ability veriety. It had nothing to do with interesting or engaging enemy mechanics that asks a new player to rise above the occasion or step out of their comfort zone. It was an arbitrary limitation in the form of not having the tools for the job. And EVEN i had little issue clearing all of it.

Im sorry but for the sake of intelligent game design and not treating new players like 5 year olds, universal power scaling between cp players and fresh players could use a redo and overland content could be more intelligent and engaging so there is at least a sense of accomplishment without having to resort to some stupid self imposed difficulty slider like questing naked etc. etc.