Enabling CP has detrimentally changed Battleground playstyle

LokoMatic

^ Agreed. And build diversity and specialism is only exemplified through balance and proportionate team function, which is thwarted by tanky aids builds, as there are few viable counters one can do to compete effectively.

In CP BG's you must fight fire with fire, aids with aids.

Leaving you with limited options if you want to win certain game modes.

In non-cp, you didn't have to fight aids with aids. You could ride the wave of talent and skill, and earn wins the good old fashioned way. The fact that someone of high PVP expertise actually likes CP BG's is terribly disappointing.

Beardimus

Thanks @LokoMatic & @Lexxypwns as always articulating way better than I can. Glad I'm not going mad!

To me and many I regularly played BG with it just feels so much worse, and its not just perception. I was open to it at first, new pop seemed up etc. But the flow (and fun) has gone.

Waffennacht

The only time I straight up don't have fun is when it's: (me) PuG vs pre made vs pre made

The premades recognize my group as PuG, they then both farm us.

Those matches become nothing but score padding for myself.

I'm also seeing more pre mades.

But I do have fun, I also had fun in no CP.

I could totally go either way.

Lexxypwns

Waffennacht wrote: »

The only time I straight up don't have fun is when it's: (me) PuG vs pre made vs pre made

The premades recognize my group as PuG, they then both farm us.

Those matches become nothing but score padding for myself.

I'm also seeing more pre mades.

But I do have fun, I also had fun in no CP.

I could totally go either way.

Most of the pre-mades are beatable with PuGs, the only really tough one to deal with that's really active is red handed. However, I'm not out here frolicking around with bow main hand

Edit: I don't think Xbox has caught up to the meta yet though. On a side note @Thogard convinced me to re-install ESO on my PC while consoles are trashed so I'm kinda looking forward to that.

Blobsky

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Honestly I like CP, I feel it creates more build diversity and specialism... But being a min maxer I guess that is just my thing

Except it does the opposite, fewer builds are competitive in CP than no-CP since you can afford to sacrifice damage in a no-CP environment and win off out-sustaining. This is blatant misinformation that gets propagated, I assume, because people think more places to spend more points is "build diversity" when it's just simply not. In fact, if your CP aren't spent mapped out properly then you're losing efficiency and placing yourself at a competitive disadvantage, therefore lowering the amount of viable options.

Cp AND no cp still have a balance of sustain. People are just afraid to give up the "extra" suatain for more damage and learn to suatain properly. I personally have over 100M ap across chars and see no sustain difference in cp and non cp, sinply by adjusting to more damage in CP and playing properly

LokoMatic

Blobsky wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Honestly I like CP, I feel it creates more build diversity and specialism... But being a min maxer I guess that is just my thing

Except it does the opposite, fewer builds are competitive in CP than no-CP since you can afford to sacrifice damage in a no-CP environment and win off out-sustaining. This is blatant misinformation that gets propagated, I assume, because people think more places to spend more points is "build diversity" when it's just simply not. In fact, if your CP aren't spent mapped out properly then you're losing efficiency and placing yourself at a competitive disadvantage, therefore lowering the amount of viable options.

Cp AND no cp still have a balance of sustain. People are just afraid to give up the "extra" suatain for more damage and learn to suatain properly. I personally have over 100M ap across chars and see no sustain difference in cp and non cp, sinply by adjusting to more damage in CP and playing properly

I personally have over 100M ap across tanky dps characters and there is an imbalance for the amount of tankiness which people can accrue through CP. In short, yes, CP and non CP has a balance of sustain which must be acknowledged. However, CP is tailored in a way which is most beneficial for aids tanky builds. No one is complaining about the amount of damage or sustain in CP BG's.

Block Reduction and Damage Mitigation are both factors which impact the sustain of a blocking tank, which are obtainable through only though CP presence. What is the most advantageous class in BG's? Tanky DPS builds with moderate sustain and decent damage.

What is the largest complaint about BG's? Battles take forever, they are boring, and often end in the tanky team winning pending on the game mode.

Thus reinforcing the idea that in order to stay competitive in BG's, 90% of the time a damage increase or "playing properly" has little impact on the team with perma tanks. You must join them to beat them. Fire with Fire. Aids with Aids. In turn, this greatly reduces the number of feasible builds if one actually wants to remain highly competitive.

@Beardimus Anytime man have to fight the good fight.

UnversedNumber3

Can you que for CP or non CP?

Beardimus

UnversedNumber3 wrote: »

Can you que for CP or non CP?

Sadly not @UnversedNumber3 it used to be No-CP then with CWC it switched. (I believe L1-50 area is forced No-CP) but L50+ its now CP only.

At least having a choice would be cool. Sure it would dilute the pop over two queues is all, preference for all series BG players is back to No-CP.

Thogard

I have noticed More and more builds that have more tools for getting through block. Wall of elements is really starting to be a staple skill for many mag users in the BGs. Also starting to see some master DW weps for those big dmg bleeds

Malic

CP has to be one of the biggest disasters in AAA MMO history. Its negatively impacted almost every aspect of the game. From making the main story face roll easy once you get CP, to creating horrible server demands in cyrodiil, you name it its made the game worse not better.

The only thing that is going to save BG's is a non CP version, like we have in the campaigns.

Lexxypwns

Blobsky wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Honestly I like CP, I feel it creates more build diversity and specialism... But being a min maxer I guess that is just my thing

Except it does the opposite, fewer builds are competitive in CP than no-CP since you can afford to sacrifice damage in a no-CP environment and win off out-sustaining. This is blatant misinformation that gets propagated, I assume, because people think more places to spend more points is "build diversity" when it's just simply not. In fact, if your CP aren't spent mapped out properly then you're losing efficiency and placing yourself at a competitive disadvantage, therefore lowering the amount of viable options.

Cp AND no cp still have a balance of sustain. People are just afraid to give up the "extra" suatain for more damage and learn to suatain properly. I personally have over 100M ap across chars and see no sustain difference in cp and non cp, sinply by adjusting to more damage in CP and playing properly

I don't mean sustain in the sense of direct resource sustain, but rather the fact that all the extra mitigation and defense and the fact that the CP system favors surviving over killing. All CP does is artificially inflate TTK on good players and artificially lower it on bad players, that's not balance, its trash gameplay.

I know you're a skilled player, I just can't understand how you think a system designed to artificially increase defense and resource sustain while offering lower values of damage relatively is good for the health of an objective, controlled, environment. I see you switched to your mDK though and perhaps that explains why you're enjoying CP more, since the balled up brawls suit your playstyle. If you were still on your mageblade consistently I wonder how you'd feel about the changes to the environment.

@Thogard WoE been strong, PC NA just late to the party

Waffennacht

Maybe both randomly mixed!

JWillCHS

The flow of combat is so much more frustrating. People engaged in these long fights because they not only have better sustain, but they're mitigating more damage. And group fights can just be obsessively long! When a fight was approaching the time limit in no-CP in ALL cases the teams were evenly match with the win up for grabs. I don't know how many times in CP battlegrounds where one team is obviously winning by an arm's length, but they can't seal deal?

I truly believe the lack of any type of sustaining damage, resource, and/or your defense drastically improves the PvP experience.

Edit: could we get rid of potions in CP BGs?

Blobsky

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Honestly I like CP, I feel it creates more build diversity and specialism... But being a min maxer I guess that is just my thing

Except it does the opposite, fewer builds are competitive in CP than no-CP since you can afford to sacrifice damage in a no-CP environment and win off out-sustaining. This is blatant misinformation that gets propagated, I assume, because people think more places to spend more points is "build diversity" when it's just simply not. In fact, if your CP aren't spent mapped out properly then you're losing efficiency and placing yourself at a competitive disadvantage, therefore lowering the amount of viable options.

Cp AND no cp still have a balance of sustain. People are just afraid to give up the "extra" suatain for more damage and learn to suatain properly. I personally have over 100M ap across chars and see no sustain difference in cp and non cp, sinply by adjusting to more damage in CP and playing properly

I don't mean sustain in the sense of direct resource sustain, but rather the fact that all the extra mitigation and defense and the fact that the CP system favors surviving over killing. All CP does is artificially inflate TTK on good players and artificially lower it on bad players, that's not balance, its trash gameplay.

I know you're a skilled player, I just can't understand how you think a system designed to artificially increase defense and resource sustain while offering lower values of damage relatively is good for the health of an objective, controlled, environment. I see you switched to your mDK though and perhaps that explains why you're enjoying CP more, since the balled up brawls suit your playstyle. If you were still on your mageblade consistently I wonder how you'd feel about the changes to the environment.

@Thogard WoE been strong, PC NA just late to the party

I play magNB too, only I finished all achievements there now. And yes I certainly like it as a means to further seperate strong and weak players. If somebody is stronger, builds smarter and pays closer attention to every 1% they can get out of a build then they frankly deserve to win. My only negative for CP is that lower level players have a natural disadvantage, rather than the skill and intelligence advatages a full CP, well customised setup can offer. Im aware that my opinions are probably disliked by many, but they are my opinions all the same.

Also worth mentioning, as it seems ignored im my initial post, I happily play in no cp as well. I simply like the further customisation that CP offers.

Cinbri

Blobsky wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Honestly I like CP, I feel it creates more build diversity and specialism... But being a min maxer I guess that is just my thing

Except it does the opposite, fewer builds are competitive in CP than no-CP since you can afford to sacrifice damage in a no-CP environment and win off out-sustaining. This is blatant misinformation that gets propagated, I assume, because people think more places to spend more points is "build diversity" when it's just simply not. In fact, if your CP aren't spent mapped out properly then you're losing efficiency and placing yourself at a competitive disadvantage, therefore lowering the amount of viable options.

Cp AND no cp still have a balance of sustain. People are just afraid to give up the "extra" suatain for more damage and learn to suatain properly. I personally have over 100M ap across chars and see no sustain difference in cp and non cp, sinply by adjusting to more damage in CP and playing properly

I don't mean sustain in the sense of direct resource sustain, but rather the fact that all the extra mitigation and defense and the fact that the CP system favors surviving over killing. All CP does is artificially inflate TTK on good players and artificially lower it on bad players, that's not balance, its trash gameplay.

I know you're a skilled player, I just can't understand how you think a system designed to artificially increase defense and resource sustain while offering lower values of damage relatively is good for the health of an objective, controlled, environment. I see you switched to your mDK though and perhaps that explains why you're enjoying CP more, since the balled up brawls suit your playstyle. If you were still on your mageblade consistently I wonder how you'd feel about the changes to the environment.

@Thogard WoE been strong, PC NA just late to the party

I play magNB too, only I finished all achievements there now. And yes I certainly like it as a means to further seperate strong and weak players. If somebody is stronger, builds smarter and pays closer attention to every 1% they can get out of a build then they frankly deserve to win. My only negative for CP is that lower level players have a natural disadvantage, rather than the skill and intelligence advatages a full CP, well customised setup can offer. Im aware that my opinions are probably disliked by many, but they are my opinions all the same.

Also worth mentioning, as it seems ignored im my initial post, I happily play in no cp as well. I simply like the further customisation that CP offers.

It is contradiction itself. CP system meant to carry people, cover their weak spots by investing in particular passives and as result removing such thing as perfectioning builds and decreasing gap between good build and perfect build.
Perfect build don't need cp since it don't have way to improve anymore, while average weak builds with being carried by cp will be equal to perfect. This can be seen on example of blazing trollplars - on no-cp such troll tank can be destroyed in a 10-15 seconds; on cp it will take more than minute just to deal with someone who spam one skill and hold right mouse button.

Beardimus

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom there are some very articulate explanations in this thread. So far across all the threads there's been 2 positive (1trolling) and 1 neutral the rest all negative about the introduction of CP.

What's the review period of the test? Honestly, long term, CP has no place in BattleGrounds

Beardimus

Another tedious night in BG.

Even the wins are stale. Even if the inital lure of CP wanting players is up, surely ZOS can see or anyone in the BattleGround design team that this is totally not the right move for the game play. It's so stale. It's Vivec 2.

I know I'm banging the drum, most of my mates have just quit BG and I really don't want to do that. Please take a look ZOS.

doslekis

CP in cyrodiil works because there's so much space. Groups always vary in size, and when there's a tank SOB you can go around them.

In battlegrounds there's no space, teams are even, and you have to kill those tanks to win objectives or get kills for deathmatch.

I used to blow people up, and get blown up on my medium armor stamina nighrblade in no CP. Now I can't kill anyone and can roll dodge away without sustain issues when under pressure.

Most games I do just under 1 mill damage, while only getting a kill or two, and a death or three.

In non CP I'd get over 10 kills, with 5 to 8 deaths, while only doing 500k damage.

Crom_CCCXVI

OF COURSE IT CHANGED.
CP is dominated by like 3 or 4 *** builds that are all about sustain and winning 30 min 1 v X's.
Everyone is running the same Youtube crap, What is it now Bone Pirate, Hulking Draugr, or some 3 sheild stacking garbage and Eye of Flame groups, freaking pathetic.

My last deathmatch, the high score was 5. Yeah awesome.

I don;t have the time to waste in battlegrounds fighting some pansy trolls.

Crom_CCCXVI

Izaki wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

Many posts have been made and yet I feel like more should be made. CP experience is awful and anyone arguing for it is either blind, ignorant, or delusional.

It’s only going to get worse as CP point allocation increases. Eventually ZOS will need to completely revamp CP... sure, for pve it is fine but in pvp... you can’t have everyone walking around as immortal gods...

I'm not blind, ignorant or delusional and yet I prefer the gameplay in CP battlegrounds. And frankly, if you really wanted to be unkillable, you could do that in non-CP, since the damage you took was always ridiculously low (unless proc sets were involved).

Most unaccurate statement ever. I have a feeling you don't play no CP. I'll meet you in Sotha Sil right now and kill you. There are no unkillable builds in No CP. The damage far outweighs the defense.
In No CP you are building to kill someone, in CP you are building to bore them to death over a 30 min 1 v 1

Toc de Malsvi

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

The only time I straight up don't have fun is when it's: (me) PuG vs pre made vs pre made

The premades recognize my group as PuG, they then both farm us.

Those matches become nothing but score padding for myself.

I'm also seeing more pre mades.

But I do have fun, I also had fun in no CP.

I could totally go either way.

Most of the pre-mades are beatable with PuGs, the only really tough one to deal with that's really active is red handed. However, I'm not out here frolicking around with bow main hand

Edit: I don't think Xbox has caught up to the meta yet though. On a side note @Thogard convinced me to re-install ESO on my PC while consoles are trashed so I'm kinda looking forward to that.

This is really really subjective and depends on the particular pugs and the particular premades. Some pugs might as well be premades, while others might as well stay in the spawn.

Lexxypwns

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

The only time I straight up don't have fun is when it's: (me) PuG vs pre made vs pre made

The premades recognize my group as PuG, they then both farm us.

Those matches become nothing but score padding for myself.

I'm also seeing more pre mades.

But I do have fun, I also had fun in no CP.

I could totally go either way.

Most of the pre-mades are beatable with PuGs, the only really tough one to deal with that's really active is red handed. However, I'm not out here frolicking around with bow main hand

Edit: I don't think Xbox has caught up to the meta yet though. On a side note @Thogard convinced me to re-install ESO on my PC while consoles are trashed so I'm kinda looking forward to that.

This is really really subjective and depends on the particular pugs and the particular premades. Some pugs might as well be premades, while others might as well stay in the spawn.

And some pre-Mades are untouchable as well.

Toc de Malsvi

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

The only time I straight up don't have fun is when it's: (me) PuG vs pre made vs pre made

The premades recognize my group as PuG, they then both farm us.

Those matches become nothing but score padding for myself.

I'm also seeing more pre mades.

But I do have fun, I also had fun in no CP.

I could totally go either way.

Most of the pre-mades are beatable with PuGs, the only really tough one to deal with that's really active is red handed. However, I'm not out here frolicking around with bow main hand

Edit: I don't think Xbox has caught up to the meta yet though. On a side note @Thogard convinced me to re-install ESO on my PC while consoles are trashed so I'm kinda looking forward to that.

This is really really subjective and depends on the particular pugs and the particular premades. Some pugs might as well be premades, while others might as well stay in the spawn.

And some pre-Mades are untouchable as well.

Absolutely true.

Just that under the circumstances that pugs are completely random, and the composition of pre-mades are also entirely random, I do not believe it is very accurate to state:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Most of the pre-mades are beatable with PuGs

This statement implies that the average pre-made is less effective than the average group of entirely random players, which wouldn't seem to be a very likely scenario. And your faith in the average player is considerably higher than mine.

Unless you mean that you have found in your experience that the general contribution of the pugs you have encountered is sufficient to beat the majority of pre-made teams you encounter.

The only thing that is sure is that the "pre-made" has attempted to coordinate something as a group, whether that is communication, strategy, or composition.

Personally I have found that I have won against several pre-made groups while group with a pug, however I don't find that scenario to occur most often.

Waffennacht

I keep getting on the leaderboards.

Even won 2v4v4 crazy king, strategy yo, it's the real META

Lexxypwns

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

The only time I straight up don't have fun is when it's: (me) PuG vs pre made vs pre made

The premades recognize my group as PuG, they then both farm us.

Those matches become nothing but score padding for myself.

I'm also seeing more pre mades.

But I do have fun, I also had fun in no CP.

I could totally go either way.

Most of the pre-mades are beatable with PuGs, the only really tough one to deal with that's really active is red handed. However, I'm not out here frolicking around with bow main hand

Edit: I don't think Xbox has caught up to the meta yet though. On a side note @Thogard convinced me to re-install ESO on my PC while consoles are trashed so I'm kinda looking forward to that.

This is really really subjective and depends on the particular pugs and the particular premades. Some pugs might as well be premades, while others might as well stay in the spawn.

And some pre-Mades are untouchable as well.

Absolutely true.

Just that under the circumstances that pugs are completely random, and the composition of pre-mades are also entirely random, I do not believe it is very accurate to state:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Most of the pre-mades are beatable with PuGs

This statement implies that the average pre-made is less effective than the average group of entirely random players, which wouldn't seem to be a very likely scenario. And your faith in the average player is considerably higher than mine.

Unless you mean that you have found in your experience that the general contribution of the pugs you have encountered is sufficient to beat the majority of pre-made teams you encounter.

The only thing that is sure is that the "pre-made" has attempted to coordinate something as a group, whether that is communication, strategy, or composition.

Personally I have found that I have won against several pre-made groups while group with a pug, however I don't find that scenario to occur most often.

You're assigning your own meaning. While some pre-made teams have impeccable coordination pushing them out of the sphere of competition with pugs, most of them are not.

I didn't say most pugs can beat most pre-mades, just that a lot of the pre-mades(on Xbox NA at least) are either: not min-maxed for group synergy, not coordinated enough, or both.

The sentiment that some pugs are like pre-mades is very accurate, particularly on consoles where you have built in voice chat. In these circumstances it's irrelevant how you got into the match because good pug working together can match a pre made that is lacking.

What you can absolutely never do is consistently compete with a min-max group who are built with solid synergy and have great coordination without having the same yourself.

REdream90

KingMagaw wrote: »

Why cant there be a NO CP and CP BG?, giving players/customers choice is NOT a bad thing.

I fully agree with that.

Thogard

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

The only time I straight up don't have fun is when it's: (me) PuG vs pre made vs pre made

The premades recognize my group as PuG, they then both farm us.

Those matches become nothing but score padding for myself.

I'm also seeing more pre mades.

But I do have fun, I also had fun in no CP.

I could totally go either way.

Most of the pre-mades are beatable with PuGs, the only really tough one to deal with that's really active is red handed. However, I'm not out here frolicking around with bow main hand

Edit: I don't think Xbox has caught up to the meta yet though. On a side note @Thogard convinced me to re-install ESO on my PC while consoles are trashed so I'm kinda looking forward to that.

This is really really subjective and depends on the particular pugs and the particular premades. Some pugs might as well be premades, while others might as well stay in the spawn.

And some pre-Mades are untouchable as well.

Absolutely true.

Just that under the circumstances that pugs are completely random, and the composition of pre-mades are also entirely random, I do not believe it is very accurate to state:

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Most of the pre-mades are beatable with PuGs

This statement implies that the average pre-made is less effective than the average group of entirely random players, which wouldn't seem to be a very likely scenario. And your faith in the average player is considerably higher than mine.

Unless you mean that you have found in your experience that the general contribution of the pugs you have encountered is sufficient to beat the majority of pre-made teams you encounter.

The only thing that is sure is that the "pre-made" has attempted to coordinate something as a group, whether that is communication, strategy, or composition.

Personally I have found that I have won against several pre-made groups while group with a pug, however I don't find that scenario to occur most often.

Beatable doesn’t mean “will beat”

I think this is a L2English issue

Beardimus

I'm persevering, as best I can but the pace chance really sucks and for me it doesn't matter if I'm winning the rounds or losing.. It's not about that its the change in playstyle

Sure there are some new faces in BG at the mo. Some of the better players from Vivec have rocked up now they have their CP crutch, but I'm sure the novelty factor will wear off.

Please listen in ZOS, us loyal BG players are annoyed!

Waffennacht

I think once enough time has passed (I'm thinking the ox is a ploy to get more Morrowind owners) and if enough people has access to BGs, we'll see both and options to select specific modes. ZoS has responded to every thing I can think of, it just takes a long time

DosPanchos

I'd relate non-CP vs. CP to music:

Non-CP has distinct notes and a noticeable rhythm to it.

CP is more like a buzz ringing in my ear.

I feel the mechanics less in CP campaigns which dulls fights even more since you can't see the mechanics as it is (ani canceling + lag). It's not completely ruined to me, just less fun.