Every DD Should Know their DPS with the Skeleton

Flameheart

The OP is absolutely right and he is very polite. To be honest I would have found other words for 4k and 6k dps from 2 players who signed up as a DD for one of the DLC vet dungeons...

To all who still doubt that knowing your dps and testing your dps on a dummy makes no sense, because it does not happen under "real circumstances"...if you can't do some dps on a target dummy, your dps will be even worse when you need to move, avoid possible oneshots and death mechanics, because you can't use the time windows in an encounter where good dps is actually possible.

We all know that there are bosses with oneshot mechanics you need to avoid and where you can't do damage all the time and where maybe 20k-25k dps is already a good value, but one step at a time, the dummy shows you if your gear, skill build and your basic rotation is ok, the feeling for situations and risk management (risk / dps) comes with time, experience and knowledge of combat/boss mechanics.

Thalmor-Nordmaster

I find the DPS dummys great for rotation memory skills. And build testing.They have saved me some tempers,Resins and tannin's. I will spend most of the day on my magpoop and getting nothing accomplished then when I hop on the tank to do some undaunted thing for impossible to get things I take a few minutes to get the rotation in my brain as I forget rather rapidly.

I am thankful to those who have taken the time to post here their opinions and advice. I have a question I want to help a Guild Member who is a Sorc Tank What should his skillset and rotation be? Since he doesn't have the chains can inner fire be used in its place? Where should Heroic Slash be at in his rotation?

Should rotations start off with sequential cool-downs or least to highest or highest to least?

Thank you in advance

resdayn00

I do agree that DDs should know their dps. I’d say anything below 10k is simply not sufficient for dlc dungeons, let alone veteran dungeons or trials, and that’s an understatement.

However, dps on skeleton vs actual dps on bosses can be vastly different. On the skelly I can do about 24-26k if I don’t strictly follow my rotation. If I go all out on it that number will go up to about 27-28k. However, in a trial, or vet dungeon, my single target dps on the boss will easily be in the realm of ~35k, sometimes I even achieved 37k.

You could say that 25k single target dps is low for your preferred type of run. I understand, doing some achievements requires higher dps than that, whether you say elitist or not. But take into consideration the simple fact that some DDs excel in aoe dps, which is also invaluable in specific PvE content. That can’t accurately be measured on the skelly.

dyn0m1k3

On console here and still a bit of a noob but how do I even get a target skeleton to test on?
I agree with the OP that its probably good to know what kind of damage your dealing before attempting vet stuff and I'd hope my rotation is decent but I don't actually know...

Takes-No-Prisoner

dyn0m1k3 wrote: »

On console here and still a bit of a noob but how do I even get a target skeleton to test on?
I agree with the OP that its probably good to know what kind of damage your dealing before attempting vet stuff and I'd hope my rotation is decent but I don't actually know...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxOlmEtLiJQ

Basically either;

1. Crafting Master Writs, and use those to get the furnishing plan, then build it for your house
2. Use a guild masters house that has them
3. Buy one

tinythinker

I tried a dps character (stamplar) prior to my current hiatus from the game. Been playing since beta. Never had any character doing more than 10.5-12k sustain according to addons during actual combat. Have practiced animation cancelling but have to hit buttons slower or light attacks are skipped entirely so there is no gain either way. Some of us just shouldn't be DPS outside of solo play.

dyn0m1k3

Wow! They haven't made it easy then, why such a barrier to finding out your damage???
Master Writs are out of reach for me at the moment and would be a ball-ache even when I've maxed crafting.
I'm a member of 5 guilds for trading and stuff but no idea if the guild masters house has that? Will have to check as this seems like the only viable option...
I'm not spending real life moneyz on a target dummy!
Thanks for the answer though!

Takes-No-Prisoner

dyn0m1k3 wrote: »

Wow! They haven't made it easy then, why such a barrier to finding out your damage???
Master Writs are out of reach for me at the moment and would be a ball-ache even when I've maxed crafting.
I'm a member of 5 guilds for trading and stuff but no idea if the guild masters house has that? Will have to check as this seems like the only viable option...
I'm not spending real life moneyz on a target dummy!
Thanks for the answer though!

Most big trading guilds, you should be able to port to the Guild Masters house through the roster window(select their name> travel to their house).

Most GMs home is the guilds home, so just ask around. Most guilds are fine with members accessing their guild halls It's not nearly as out of reach as you think it is.

s7732425ub17_ESO

SugaComa wrote: »

I find dummies an awful way to test DPS , I tend to do more damage on tight crowds of adds than single target, maybe they should do a crowded test dummy to test on

It's obvious that you are going to do more damage to groups of mobs, because if your AOEs are doing 5k damage and they are hitting 3 mobs at a time, simple math says that's 15k DPS. If you were to do this on a dummy, it would be 5k DPS.

This is precisely why dummies are the gold standard in DPS testing. They don't artificially inflate damage numbers. I do 30k DPS single target on the dummy. If I go into a Trial, I can do 100k DPS on a group of monsters. Am I going to report to people that I do 100k DPS? No, that's plain stupid.

Ertthewolf

The dummy is a good baseline. I use it just to get an idea of dps loss or gain if I tweak my weapon damage or skill morphs.

23k dps on my werewolf has been plenty so far for all vet dungeons and vMA. Not high, but again skill and class knowledge is so valuable. With a group of friends in a party and knowledge of mechanics you can do just about anything.

Drummerx04

SugaComa wrote: »

I know rotation is important but for some of us sustaining it is hard, I'm an older gamer with arthritis developing so my fingers can cramp up , I have to do a slower rotation as faster causes more issues and if I lock up (fingers cramp and don't move) I do 0 DPS

Cos of this I can only really do vet dungeons and will probably never complete a vet trial, though I've had a few runs in normal ones

My DPS on a target dummy ranges from 10k to 22k depending on the day and if I put all my skills to DPS but I tend to have a few skills set up for heals these days for PvP

I find dummies an awful way to test DPS , I tend to do more damage on tight crowds of adds than single target, maybe they should do a crowded test dummy to test on

Personal limitations aside, the whole point of the skeleton is specifically to test single target dps. Everyone does more damage against multiple closely packed targets because it's almost impossible not to deal more damage against multiple targets. For example, there are certain add pulls in vet dungeons and trials where I can hit upwards of 250k+ dps, but no one really cares because I'm dumping a destro ult and other AoE on 15 stacked mobs.

Because of this, single target damage is about all that really matters and it's only sustained damage that matters.

Don't get me wrong, 10/10 times I'll prefer a dps that deals 4k less damage but never dies over a dps that I have to rez 6 times or more per fight.

SoftcoverGore47

Stupid question, but, how do you actually figure out your DPS on a target skeleton? By that I mean, what specifically do you need to do? I've used a target skeleton, but had no idea what to do, other than wail away with my usual rotation. Did not really learn much. Please, break it down step, by step what to do, and what to look for. On xbox, so no addons. Thanks

Saint314Louis1985

SoftcoverGore47 wrote: »

Stupid question, but, how do you actually figure out your DPS on a target skeleton? By that I mean, what specifically do you need to do? I've used a target skeleton, but had no idea what to do, other than wail away with my usual rotation. Did not really learn much. Please, break it down step, by step what to do, and what to look for. On xbox, so no addons. Thanks

kill it as fast as you can. your dps will pop into your text log when your done

SoftcoverGore47

I see, said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.
I never killed it. I just beat on it for a minute and then tried to figure out my dps.

kargen27

dyn0m1k3 wrote: »

On console here and still a bit of a noob but how do I even get a target skeleton to test on?
I agree with the OP that its probably good to know what kind of damage your dealing before attempting vet stuff and I'd hope my rotation is decent but I don't actually know...

I would like to see a quest early in the undaunted line that sends you to an instanced room where you must deplete all the target dummies health to complete the quest. As a reward you gain access to the practice room any time you wish to use it.

Kram8ion

Punching a wall doesn't mean you're good in the ring

Dymence

Kram8ion wrote: »

Punching a wall doesn't mean you're good in the ring

An indication does not harm anyone, however.

CavalryPK

When I am about to start a vet dungeon group and I only have 30 mins of play time.....

Me: /z LF DPS for vet (insert dungeon name here) pledge, HM speed / no death run. pst

potential dps: here

Me: whats your dps at ?

potential dps: whats dps?

Me: /z LF DPS for vet (insert dungeon name here) pledge, HM speed / no death run. pst

I was not like this before. I spent many hrs coaching and helping less xped players through tough dungeons... but cmon. I only have 30 mins... maybe over the weekend when I have longer play time I would consider.

Overall I noticed its tougher to find a dps that has 20k min. then its healer then a tank.

Takes-No-Prisoner

SoftcoverGore47 wrote: »

I see, said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.
I never killed it. I just beat on it for a minute and then tried to figure out my dps.

It's simply not enough to hit it, you need proper coaching.

I'm in a guild that does Vet HM Trials and Dungeons. There are 3 trial leaders that track and record scores from DPS. They go through training with them, every major patch, so they can be properly taught how to DPS. They will have guild members sit by and cast debuffs/have equips on like the Worm, in party to help stimulate that experience more.

I've seen the trainees get frustrated and leave guild over the training they put them through. But, if you want to participate in those kinds of PvE end game activities, you gotta listen and bring your A game to trials.

As a PvPer, I've jumped in on some of these DPS numbers discussions in guild chat, and explained to the trainee to listen to the trial leader when he gets frustrated. That its so so important to get the timing and rotation perfect. While I only PvP, the trial leaders respect the fact I understand their craft and their coaching methods-- because I believe they work.

Flameheart

Kram8ion wrote: »

Punching a wall doesn't mean you're good in the ring

..and with just tenderly stroking a wall you won't land a hard punch in the ring either.

dps = rota + gear setup + CP setup + skill setup + knowing mechanics + reaction and movement

With just knowing mechanics + reaction and movement your dps will be zero nevertheless.

Stopnaggin

Denyiir wrote: »

CardboardedBox wrote: »

It can be hard for people to use the skeleton who are unfamiliar with it, due to how strict it is on rotation. One little slip up will plummet it's final dps score. It's often pretty inaccurate if you don't know what you're doing. I can almost guarantee they do more than 4-6k dps, and just didn't know how to use the skeleton properly.

I think in most situations it's actually opposite. With dummy you don't have to avoid damage, sometimes heal/cast shields, or chase it because it's not moving

Its also stressing to some being put under pressure to perform. Not to mention buffs and debuts that groups provide. Too many factors involved to get a really accurate number. One slip on a bar swap is enough to tankbyour numbers. I still sort of agree with the ops premise with at the very least use the dummy to learn a decent rotation.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say most dps are only going to be around 15 k per second now. Without an understanding of all that goes into a build most won't min max.

Ragnork

I easily pull 5k on the test dummy and my wife 6k - using ultimate and going crazy we are both 12 to 15k
Together we have completed most of the normal dungeons - not managed to work out the one with the pirate that locks one of you down - we take our time and enjoy the scenery and read the lore books and chase down the butterflies.

My point? There needs to be room for non-competitive play also.
To pull more than 25k you need to be running best in class armour and weapons; farming the trials and dungeons to obtain "the piece".

For myself - this is a game, an escape from the grind of the real world. I have a full time job, I have a busy family life, when I come on-line I enjoy taking it a little easy.

5k - lol - running darkstrider and hundings on my stam build and law of julianos with shadow dancer on my magblade

ACESsiggy

I do 8k with a poison build...... can i join your Trials?

akl77

Yours is better, I had dps in vet wgt before and he said he has 3k dps and proud.
Couldn’t leave the group fast enough.

MaleAmazon

My point? There needs to be room for non-competitive play also.

Absolutely agree. But not in veteran DLC dungeons. It is a vicous circle; Bad PUG experiences make good players who are in a PvE guild leave, leaving fewer strong players, making the experience worse for all, rinse and repeat.

People don´t know Falkreath mechanics more often than they do, it seems like, when I PUG. Which is quite frankly a bit insensitive to other players, though I´m being somewhat unfair perhaps.

PlagueSD

bhagwad wrote: »

DD 1 = 4k DPS
DD 2 = 6k DPS

Lol...I can light attack spam and pull more than 4k DPS.

raj72616a

i'd prefer to do that in a different order:
i went in the dungeon first (not vet dlc ones, just non dlc vet pledge with guild group), if i noticed someone is pulling low dps, i asked them abt their gear setup, sometimes they didnt even have two complete set, then i would craft them full set Hunding or Julianos in purple and make them bi food. told them to try the new gear on a target skeleton.

target skeleton is the last thing i'd ask them to do, only after i made sure i already did what i could to help.

Dubhliam

Integral1900 wrote: »

Lol

The number of dummie builds out there that get these great numbers but turn out to be useless in dungeons is quite considerable. That dummy is like having a perfect tank who keeps the boss nailed in place... not sodding likely... and a boss not prone to wandering off via mechanics... in case you hadn’t been paying attention very few bosses are prone to behaving like a plant pot. The result is massively inflated numbers, simply because it doesn’t move around and instead it just sits in the aoe damage, there are also no mechanics for you to avoid and so it ends up taking taking far more than any normal boss would. Any numbers on that dummy are going to get cut in half against a mobile boss with hazardous mechanics.

Your fancy rotations are all well and good on a dummy, but against some of the big beasts in those dungeons and especially trials it just ain’t gonna fly. I’ve lost count of the number of cocky types with their max cp and boasting huge target dummy numbers that turn out in fact to be a total liability. Sometimes I think I would rather have a group with open minded players maybe around the hundred cp mark than a load of meta addicted dummy humpers that don’t seem to know one end of a boss fight from the other

But if you do 10k DPS on a dummy, I wonder what use you are in a real dungeon environment.

@WatchYourSixx said it all.

WatchYourSixx wrote: »

... there comes a point where their enjoyment becomes someone else's suffering, and that's why there should be some kind of barrier.

Much more fun when you do good DPS, and other players will enjoy playing with you.
Everybody has more fun when *** dies.

Alsaroth

Sound advice.

I'm handling my DD alright, but after getting that skeleton I decided to change rotation, a couple of skills and am now training to weave properly. Sound advice, as I said.

Dubhliam

WatchYourSixx wrote: »

Not everyone is meant to be a good dps, and not everyone wants to be good dps. They just want to play the game. But there comes a point where their enjoyment becomes someone else's suffering, and that's why there should be some kind of barrier.

Ilithyania wrote: »

Kind of you to invite and tip the DDs. To be fair. the game does not warn about DLC vet dungeons being harder then reg vet dungeons.

It actually does now.

New players cannot enter DLC dungeons as soon as they start the game, meaning they have "requirements" other dungeons don't have.
They also bumped CoA2 and CoH2 into that category.