We need alliance/class change token

Apache_Kid

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

Again, I understand that. However, unlike Skyrim, the end-game PvE content in ESO requires you to be veteran rank. Thus making leveling alts a chore for the more avid players. Furthermore I'm not even advocaring for this as a work-around leveling an alt as I stated above it can be done pretty quickly. Yes others might chose to use it that way (putting money in pocket of Zos) Rather, I think it's the only reasonable solution in a game where the developers are constantly re-balancing the game, as of this year adding new classes, to allow the players to change the class of a character they have 20k+ acheivment points on. Some of these acheivments take days on end to complete and in a game where the developers are constantly changing and sometimes breaking classes (see magplar dmg calc issues and NB skills not working) the players should reserve the right to pay a fee to switch classes. This isn't unreasonable. It's not even about me despite your efforts to paint me as selfish. 6 months ago I would've changed the class of my main in a heartbeat but I've grown to love it. However I know many players who would still change their class if they could and I think they deserve the right to do so.

SydneyGrey

dday3six wrote: »

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.
Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

You're trying hard to invalidate his comment, but the irony is that not all players think like YOU do, either. People play different ways. Some people love to build new characters. For other people, the game doesn't even begin until you're leveled up and have decent mount speed/stamina.

dday3six

SydneyGrey wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.
Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

You're trying hard to invalidate his comment, but the irony is that not all players think like YOU do, either. People play different ways. Some people love to build new characters. For other people, the game doesn't even begin until you're leveled up and have decent mount speed/stamina.

I find it more ironic that you believe my defense of a position translates to my complete personal alignment with said position. Missed the mark there suffice it to say. I defend the position purely because of the business end. Personally I max/min and greatly prefer endgame content over leveling. So much so, that though I’ve started numerous alts. I’ve never finished any of them. Actually even though I play many RPGs, it’s rare that I ever play multiple characters or even multiple playthroughs for that matter.

dday3six

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

Again, I understand that. However, unlike Skyrim, the end-game PvE content in ESO requires you to be veteran rank. Thus making leveling alts a chore for the more avid players. Furthermore I'm not even advocaring for this as a work-around leveling an alt as I stated above it can be done pretty quickly. Yes others might chose to use it that way (putting money in pocket of Zos) Rather, I think it's the only reasonable solution in a game where the developers are constantly re-balancing the game, as of this year adding new classes, to allow the players to change the class of a character they have 20k+ acheivment points on. Some of these acheivments take days on end to complete and in a game where the developers are constantly changing and sometimes breaking classes (see magplar dmg calc issues and NB skills not working) the players should reserve the right to pay a fee to switch classes. This isn't unreasonable. It's not even about me despite your efforts to paint me as selfish. 6 months ago I would've changed the class of my main in a heartbeat but I've grown to love it. However I know many players who would still change their class if they could and I think they deserve the right to do so.

Balance changes are done in many games, but it’s not a good reason to be able to change classes. I’ll defend what I find to be reasonable business practices. Which I do for not having a class change as it’s antithetical to the ESO revenue set up. Be that as it may, if you really want to have the discussion focus on class balance. Let’s look at the otherside...

A business exists make a profit. So in regards to class balance, what would stop a dev from ever so subtlety tipping the scale against one class to nudge players over to another? That’s a pretty common practice in free to play games. A new item, or gear or class, etc. drops which just so happens to coincide with balance changes that soften the effectiveness of existing strategies.

Having a class change system incentivizes ZOS to market and thus balance around that fact. Rather than trying to make all the options appealing to incentivize alts.

DHale

No thank you grind a new character... earn it.

Runefang

I'd like a one-time option. Or once a year.

All my characters are on different alliances and I had no intentions of pvping so I didn't bother with any race/alliance, but its turned out to be quite fun. So now I'd like them all to be on one alliance now.

Apache_Kid

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

Again, I understand that. However, unlike Skyrim, the end-game PvE content in ESO requires you to be veteran rank. Thus making leveling alts a chore for the more avid players. Furthermore I'm not even advocaring for this as a work-around leveling an alt as I stated above it can be done pretty quickly. Yes others might chose to use it that way (putting money in pocket of Zos) Rather, I think it's the only reasonable solution in a game where the developers are constantly re-balancing the game, as of this year adding new classes, to allow the players to change the class of a character they have 20k+ acheivment points on. Some of these acheivments take days on end to complete and in a game where the developers are constantly changing and sometimes breaking classes (see magplar dmg calc issues and NB skills not working) the players should reserve the right to pay a fee to switch classes. This isn't unreasonable. It's not even about me despite your efforts to paint me as selfish. 6 months ago I would've changed the class of my main in a heartbeat but I've grown to love it. However I know many players who would still change their class if they could and I think they deserve the right to do so.

Balance changes are done in many games, but it’s not a good reason to be able to change classes. I’ll defend what I find to be reasonable business practices. Which I do for not having a class change as it’s antithetical to the ESO revenue set up. Be that as it may, if you really want to have the discussion focus on class balance. Let’s look at the otherside...

A business exists make a profit. So in regards to class balance, what would stop a dev from ever so subtlety tipping the scale against one class to nudge players over to another? That’s a pretty common practice in free to play games. A new item, or gear or class, etc. drops which just so happens to coincide with balance changes that soften the effectiveness of existing strategies.

Having a class change system incentivizes ZOS to market and thus balance around that fact. Rather than trying to make all the options appealing to incentivize alts.

You mean it might incentivize them to actually balance the game? What a novel concept. Also I'm literally arguing that this token in the crown store will allow them to turn a bigger profit. Furthermore this game is not free to play. You need to buy it. Lastly, if ZoS is truly tipping the scales to be imbalanced on purpose then that's a pretty serious separate issue that needs to be looked at. Underhanded and shady to say the least.

SugaComa

Runschei wrote: »

I am mostly against an alliance change token but I would accept it if it cost loads of AP and reset your alliance war rank. Why? This kind of token would affect pvp only.

How about a single time only use ... Then the character is locked to that alliance

I made my very first character EP and all other since have been AD ... I want to move my only EP to AD

I'm guessing your objection is to prevent faction hopping so a single change will be good and lock campaigns to account all characters can join the campaign but you can only play in one till it's end

VaranisArano

You really don't understand this concept that time spent playing the game - just time spent playing the game no crown sales necessary - equals $$$ to ZOS. Do you?

Your time, no sales necessary, is worth money to ZOS. They'll tout that number of hours played to show how good the game is, they'll use that data on how you play to design stuff for the playerbase, they'll justify their continued existence by how many hours players play the game. There's a reason so much of what ZOS does is a grind designed to keep you playing the game instead of feeling satisfied and leaving. That reason is that ZOS wants you playing the game because playing the game = $$$$.

Now add on all the rest, the possible crown store sales, the extra character slots, everything. And then try to convince ZOS that they should throw ALL that away for a one-shot expensive purchase of a Class Change.
A. If ZOS thought that were a better business model for them, they'd have done it. Its not going to give them a long-lasting game/cash cow the way the current system is. ZOS needs you (general you here) playing the game in order to milk the cash cow. Leveling Alts = more playing time = more time to milk the cash cow. ZOS is playing a long game economically and they know they'd be foolish to toss it over for a short-term money grab (though if the game starts to fail, the economics change and short-term money grabs are the best idea at that point).
B. If ZOS added up all the average $$$ they get in the process of people leveling alts whether by playing the game or by crown store purchases, plus the unseen yet present retention factor that comes from making players grind as opposed to get satisfied with their builds then do everything and move on to other games, a Class Change token would be incredibly expensive. Far more more than an expensive boondoggle of a practically non-functional house.

But the real point here is that if you can't understand that for ZOS, your playtime spent leveling alts = $$$ even if you don't spend a single crown, there's nothing that we can talk about. Its a basic fact of the equation that ZOS is working with. Fundamentally, a Class Change would be good for consumers, but it results in a lot of lost income for ZOS.

Apache_Kid

VaranisArano wrote: »

You really don't understand this concept that time spent playing the game - just time spent playing the game no crown sales necessary - equals $$$ to ZOS. Do you?

Your time, no sales necessary, is worth money to ZOS. They'll tout that number of hours played to show how good the game is, they'll use that data on how you play to design stuff for the playerbase, they'll justify their continued existence by how many hours players play the game. There's a reason so much of what ZOS does is a grind designed to keep you playing the game instead of feeling satisfied and leaving. That reason is that ZOS wants you playing the game because playing the game = $$$$.

Now add on all the rest, the possible crown store sales, the extra character slots, everything. And then try to convince ZOS that they should throw ALL that away for a one-shot expensive purchase of a Class Change.
A. If ZOS thought that were a better business model for them, they'd have done it. Its not going to give them a long-lasting game/cash cow the way the current system is. ZOS needs you (general you here) playing the game in order to milk the cash cow. Leveling Alts = more playing time = more time to milk the cash cow. ZOS is playing a long game economically and they know they'd be foolish to toss it over for a short-term money grab (though if the game starts to fail, the economics change and short-term money grabs are the best idea at that point).
B. If ZOS added up all the average $$$ they get in the process of people leveling alts whether by playing the game or by crown store purchases, plus the unseen yet present retention factor that comes from making players grind as opposed to get satisfied with their builds then do everything and move on to other games, a Class Change token would be incredibly expensive. Far more more than an expensive boondoggle of a practically non-functional house.

But the real point here is that if you can't understand that for ZOS, your playtime spent leveling alts = $$$ even if you don't spend a single crown, there's nothing that we can talk about. Its a basic fact of the equation that ZOS is working with. Fundamentally, a Class Change would be good for consumers, but it results in a lot of lost income for ZOS.

That's not actually money. That's just data that they hope to parlay into more money. I know you're saying that ZoS thinks this is the best business plan for them and I disagree that this is the best business plan for them. Yeah sure those play time numbers look really good when you dress it up in fancy charts and present it at board meetings but that's not actually generating any revenue. And don't even tell me that ZoS definitely knows the best way to maximize profits because they can't even come close to maximizing performance on the game. They can improve in alot of areas and offering this token is one of them. There are many players who would purchase this token and still play the exact same amount of hours, just spending it doing content that's more entertaining. You keep structuring your argument as if I don't understand what you are trying to say when I read you loud and clear. You're just wrong.

dday3six

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

Again, I understand that. However, unlike Skyrim, the end-game PvE content in ESO requires you to be veteran rank. Thus making leveling alts a chore for the more avid players. Furthermore I'm not even advocaring for this as a work-around leveling an alt as I stated above it can be done pretty quickly. Yes others might chose to use it that way (putting money in pocket of Zos) Rather, I think it's the only reasonable solution in a game where the developers are constantly re-balancing the game, as of this year adding new classes, to allow the players to change the class of a character they have 20k+ acheivment points on. Some of these acheivments take days on end to complete and in a game where the developers are constantly changing and sometimes breaking classes (see magplar dmg calc issues and NB skills not working) the players should reserve the right to pay a fee to switch classes. This isn't unreasonable. It's not even about me despite your efforts to paint me as selfish. 6 months ago I would've changed the class of my main in a heartbeat but I've grown to love it. However I know many players who would still change their class if they could and I think they deserve the right to do so.

Balance changes are done in many games, but it’s not a good reason to be able to change classes. I’ll defend what I find to be reasonable business practices. Which I do for not having a class change as it’s antithetical to the ESO revenue set up. Be that as it may, if you really want to have the discussion focus on class balance. Let’s look at the otherside...

A business exists make a profit. So in regards to class balance, what would stop a dev from ever so subtlety tipping the scale against one class to nudge players over to another? That’s a pretty common practice in free to play games. A new item, or gear or class, etc. drops which just so happens to coincide with balance changes that soften the effectiveness of existing strategies.

Having a class change system incentivizes ZOS to market and thus balance around that fact. Rather than trying to make all the options appealing to incentivize alts.

You mean it might incentivize them to actually balance the game? What a novel concept. Also I'm literally arguing that this token in the crown store will allow them to turn a bigger profit. Furthermore this game is not free to play. You need to buy it. Lastly, if ZoS is truly tipping the scales to be imbalanced on purpose then that's a pretty serious separate issue that needs to be looked at. Underhanded and shady to say the least.

You can’t say for sure that a class token will turn a profit. It’s completely speculative. The statements I’ve made about the value of time invested are proven across multiple mercantile mediums. Customer engagement is always highly valued in not only digitally interactive media, but other markets as well.

Predatory monetization is rampant in f2p games, and it’s bleeding over to b2p as well (see the Star Wars Battlefront 2 debacle). I was not stating ESO is a free to play game, but rather demonstrating the profit driven decisions made in regards to balance in f2p games as it relates to a negative potential of a class change option.

ESO’s current balance issues are totally indifferent to either side of the argument and more relative to the inexperience of ZOS. Along with the hampering component of trying to maintain class uniqueness and identity while still letting ESO stay true to the TES identity and play as you want mentality.

Apache_Kid

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

Again, I understand that. However, unlike Skyrim, the end-game PvE content in ESO requires you to be veteran rank. Thus making leveling alts a chore for the more avid players. Furthermore I'm not even advocaring for this as a work-around leveling an alt as I stated above it can be done pretty quickly. Yes others might chose to use it that way (putting money in pocket of Zos) Rather, I think it's the only reasonable solution in a game where the developers are constantly re-balancing the game, as of this year adding new classes, to allow the players to change the class of a character they have 20k+ acheivment points on. Some of these acheivments take days on end to complete and in a game where the developers are constantly changing and sometimes breaking classes (see magplar dmg calc issues and NB skills not working) the players should reserve the right to pay a fee to switch classes. This isn't unreasonable. It's not even about me despite your efforts to paint me as selfish. 6 months ago I would've changed the class of my main in a heartbeat but I've grown to love it. However I know many players who would still change their class if they could and I think they deserve the right to do so.

Balance changes are done in many games, but it’s not a good reason to be able to change classes. I’ll defend what I find to be reasonable business practices. Which I do for not having a class change as it’s antithetical to the ESO revenue set up. Be that as it may, if you really want to have the discussion focus on class balance. Let’s look at the otherside...

A business exists make a profit. So in regards to class balance, what would stop a dev from ever so subtlety tipping the scale against one class to nudge players over to another? That’s a pretty common practice in free to play games. A new item, or gear or class, etc. drops which just so happens to coincide with balance changes that soften the effectiveness of existing strategies.

Having a class change system incentivizes ZOS to market and thus balance around that fact. Rather than trying to make all the options appealing to incentivize alts.

You mean it might incentivize them to actually balance the game? What a novel concept. Also I'm literally arguing that this token in the crown store will allow them to turn a bigger profit. Furthermore this game is not free to play. You need to buy it. Lastly, if ZoS is truly tipping the scales to be imbalanced on purpose then that's a pretty serious separate issue that needs to be looked at. Underhanded and shady to say the least.

You can’t say for sure that a class token will turn a profit. It’s completely speculative. The statements I’ve made about the value of time invested are proven across multiple mercantile mediums. Customer engagement is always highly valued in not only digitally interactive media, but other markets as well.

Predatory monetization is rampant in f2p games, and it’s bleeding over to b2p as well (see the Star Wars Battlefront 2 debacle). I was not stating ESO is a free to play game, but rather demonstrating the profit driven decisions made in regards to balance in f2p games as it relates to a negative potential of a class change option.

ESO’s current balance issues are totally indifferent to either side of the argument and more relative to the inexperience of ZOS. Along with the hampering component of trying to maintain class uniqueness and identity while still letting ESO stay true to the TES identity and play as you want mentality.

Completely agree that balance issues (even though we clearly disagree on that as well) is a separate monster so that aside, you're assuming that people buying this token will then spend less time playing the game. But isn't the whole point of grinding up an alt to use it to play the content? So someone who buys a class change token will not only be spending money but playing the same amount of time just on content that is actually enjoyable while retaining their acheivments points. These people are going to spend time in the game anyways you'd might as well implement another way to get money out of them.

O_LYKOS

Alliance change, perhaps. With the limitation of allowing only one change. Or once a year maybe.

Class change, no. Just level a new character of that class.

O_LYKOS

Actually_Goku wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

Everyone would just change to the meta class, constantly.

If it was once per created character, then locked, sure, I can't see why it can't happen. However, the potential for people to abuse unlimited class change tokens would literally break the game.

I agree. And I think in most cases there is always a class that out performs the rest. Changing class to take advantage of this would lead to a pay to win outrage lol

Apache_Kid

O_LYKOS wrote: »

Actually_Goku wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

Everyone would just change to the meta class, constantly.

If it was once per created character, then locked, sure, I can't see why it can't happen. However, the potential for people to abuse unlimited class change tokens would literally break the game.

I agree. And I think in most cases there is always a class that out performs the rest. Changing class to take advantage of this would lead to a pay to win outrage lol

You can just make an alternate character that is that class then. What does it matter if you can change a character to that class, make a new one, or dust off one of your alts that is clearly leveled. While some classes in this game put out more DPS than others, all excel in one role or another for PvE. In PvP, everyone thinks every class they don't main is OP, just go look at some other threads on here. This "everyone will change to the same class" argument is unfounded.

dday3six

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

Again, I understand that. However, unlike Skyrim, the end-game PvE content in ESO requires you to be veteran rank. Thus making leveling alts a chore for the more avid players. Furthermore I'm not even advocaring for this as a work-around leveling an alt as I stated above it can be done pretty quickly. Yes others might chose to use it that way (putting money in pocket of Zos) Rather, I think it's the only reasonable solution in a game where the developers are constantly re-balancing the game, as of this year adding new classes, to allow the players to change the class of a character they have 20k+ acheivment points on. Some of these acheivments take days on end to complete and in a game where the developers are constantly changing and sometimes breaking classes (see magplar dmg calc issues and NB skills not working) the players should reserve the right to pay a fee to switch classes. This isn't unreasonable. It's not even about me despite your efforts to paint me as selfish. 6 months ago I would've changed the class of my main in a heartbeat but I've grown to love it. However I know many players who would still change their class if they could and I think they deserve the right to do so.

Balance changes are done in many games, but it’s not a good reason to be able to change classes. I’ll defend what I find to be reasonable business practices. Which I do for not having a class change as it’s antithetical to the ESO revenue set up. Be that as it may, if you really want to have the discussion focus on class balance. Let’s look at the otherside...

A business exists make a profit. So in regards to class balance, what would stop a dev from ever so subtlety tipping the scale against one class to nudge players over to another? That’s a pretty common practice in free to play games. A new item, or gear or class, etc. drops which just so happens to coincide with balance changes that soften the effectiveness of existing strategies.

Having a class change system incentivizes ZOS to market and thus balance around that fact. Rather than trying to make all the options appealing to incentivize alts.

You mean it might incentivize them to actually balance the game? What a novel concept. Also I'm literally arguing that this token in the crown store will allow them to turn a bigger profit. Furthermore this game is not free to play. You need to buy it. Lastly, if ZoS is truly tipping the scales to be imbalanced on purpose then that's a pretty serious separate issue that needs to be looked at. Underhanded and shady to say the least.

You can’t say for sure that a class token will turn a profit. It’s completely speculative. The statements I’ve made about the value of time invested are proven across multiple mercantile mediums. Customer engagement is always highly valued in not only digitally interactive media, but other markets as well.

Predatory monetization is rampant in f2p games, and it’s bleeding over to b2p as well (see the Star Wars Battlefront 2 debacle). I was not stating ESO is a free to play game, but rather demonstrating the profit driven decisions made in regards to balance in f2p games as it relates to a negative potential of a class change option.

ESO’s current balance issues are totally indifferent to either side of the argument and more relative to the inexperience of ZOS. Along with the hampering component of trying to maintain class uniqueness and identity while still letting ESO stay true to the TES identity and play as you want mentality.

Completely agree that balance issues (even though we clearly disagree on that as well) is a separate monster so that aside, you're assuming that people buying this token will then spend less time playing the game. But isn't the whole point of grinding up an alt to use it to play the content? So someone who buys a class change token will not only be spending money but playing the same amount of time just on content that is actually enjoyable while retaining their acheivments points. These people are going to spend time in the game anyways you'd might as well implement another way to get money out of them.

The bulk of the content in ESO is either not endgame content or indifferent to player level. Most importantly it’s already released. Why would a business want to give players the option to bypass recycling content? A player would run out of endgame content after changing classes longer before the same player would burn through leveling and maximizing an alt whenever they wanted to play a different class.

Having more characters which are actively maintained is going to equate to more time spent in game. It takes more time to wash 2 cars by hand than it does 1.

Also each alt presents more opportunities to spent crowns on. Whether they are mounts and their upgrades, inventory related items or cosmetics. It’s as well a built in time sink for future expansions because playing through the expansions multiple times with alts will take more time than doing it once.

Apache_Kid

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

Again, I understand that. However, unlike Skyrim, the end-game PvE content in ESO requires you to be veteran rank. Thus making leveling alts a chore for the more avid players. Furthermore I'm not even advocaring for this as a work-around leveling an alt as I stated above it can be done pretty quickly. Yes others might chose to use it that way (putting money in pocket of Zos) Rather, I think it's the only reasonable solution in a game where the developers are constantly re-balancing the game, as of this year adding new classes, to allow the players to change the class of a character they have 20k+ acheivment points on. Some of these acheivments take days on end to complete and in a game where the developers are constantly changing and sometimes breaking classes (see magplar dmg calc issues and NB skills not working) the players should reserve the right to pay a fee to switch classes. This isn't unreasonable. It's not even about me despite your efforts to paint me as selfish. 6 months ago I would've changed the class of my main in a heartbeat but I've grown to love it. However I know many players who would still change their class if they could and I think they deserve the right to do so.

Balance changes are done in many games, but it’s not a good reason to be able to change classes. I’ll defend what I find to be reasonable business practices. Which I do for not having a class change as it’s antithetical to the ESO revenue set up. Be that as it may, if you really want to have the discussion focus on class balance. Let’s look at the otherside...

A business exists make a profit. So in regards to class balance, what would stop a dev from ever so subtlety tipping the scale against one class to nudge players over to another? That’s a pretty common practice in free to play games. A new item, or gear or class, etc. drops which just so happens to coincide with balance changes that soften the effectiveness of existing strategies.

Having a class change system incentivizes ZOS to market and thus balance around that fact. Rather than trying to make all the options appealing to incentivize alts.

You mean it might incentivize them to actually balance the game? What a novel concept. Also I'm literally arguing that this token in the crown store will allow them to turn a bigger profit. Furthermore this game is not free to play. You need to buy it. Lastly, if ZoS is truly tipping the scales to be imbalanced on purpose then that's a pretty serious separate issue that needs to be looked at. Underhanded and shady to say the least.

You can’t say for sure that a class token will turn a profit. It’s completely speculative. The statements I’ve made about the value of time invested are proven across multiple mercantile mediums. Customer engagement is always highly valued in not only digitally interactive media, but other markets as well.

Predatory monetization is rampant in f2p games, and it’s bleeding over to b2p as well (see the Star Wars Battlefront 2 debacle). I was not stating ESO is a free to play game, but rather demonstrating the profit driven decisions made in regards to balance in f2p games as it relates to a negative potential of a class change option.

ESO’s current balance issues are totally indifferent to either side of the argument and more relative to the inexperience of ZOS. Along with the hampering component of trying to maintain class uniqueness and identity while still letting ESO stay true to the TES identity and play as you want mentality.

Completely agree that balance issues (even though we clearly disagree on that as well) is a separate monster so that aside, you're assuming that people buying this token will then spend less time playing the game. But isn't the whole point of grinding up an alt to use it to play the content? So someone who buys a class change token will not only be spending money but playing the same amount of time just on content that is actually enjoyable while retaining their acheivments points. These people are going to spend time in the game anyways you'd might as well implement another way to get money out of them.

The bulk of the content in ESO is either not endgame content or indifferent to player level. Most importantly it’s already released. Why would a business want to give players the option to bypass recycling content? A player would run out of endgame content after changing classes longer before the same player would burn through leveling and maximizing an alt whenever they wanted to play a different class.

Having more characters which are actively maintained is going to equate to more time spent in game. It takes more time to wash 2 cars by hand than it does 1.

Also each alt presents more opportunities to spent crowns on. Whether they are mounts and their upgrades, inventory related items or cosmetics. It’s as well a built in time sink for future expansions because playing through the expansions multiple times with alts will take more time than doing it once.

I'm willing to bet there's a large swath of players who don't buy the crownstore items that are mount upgrades and bag upgrades. The price is not relative to the benefit they provide. The service isn't unique and it's expensive. The class change token would be pricy and offer a unique service, therefore being something that would be enticing to purchase. Someone who would purchase a class change token would still be maybe inclined to purchase things such as costumes or mounts however as those are also unique and not canabalized by a class change token.

Also the "bulk" of the content may not be dependent on level but all of the PvE end-game content is. Which is what I imagine, what the typical player who is invested enough in the game to even want to make an alt wants to do.

Yes obviously they want us to play more and I'm telling you the people that are invested enough to create alts or buy the token are going to be spending the time playing this regardless. It's just thay with the token some players will be spending that time actually having fun.

dday3six

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

Again, I understand that. However, unlike Skyrim, the end-game PvE content in ESO requires you to be veteran rank. Thus making leveling alts a chore for the more avid players. Furthermore I'm not even advocaring for this as a work-around leveling an alt as I stated above it can be done pretty quickly. Yes others might chose to use it that way (putting money in pocket of Zos) Rather, I think it's the only reasonable solution in a game where the developers are constantly re-balancing the game, as of this year adding new classes, to allow the players to change the class of a character they have 20k+ acheivment points on. Some of these acheivments take days on end to complete and in a game where the developers are constantly changing and sometimes breaking classes (see magplar dmg calc issues and NB skills not working) the players should reserve the right to pay a fee to switch classes. This isn't unreasonable. It's not even about me despite your efforts to paint me as selfish. 6 months ago I would've changed the class of my main in a heartbeat but I've grown to love it. However I know many players who would still change their class if they could and I think they deserve the right to do so.

Balance changes are done in many games, but it’s not a good reason to be able to change classes. I’ll defend what I find to be reasonable business practices. Which I do for not having a class change as it’s antithetical to the ESO revenue set up. Be that as it may, if you really want to have the discussion focus on class balance. Let’s look at the otherside...

A business exists make a profit. So in regards to class balance, what would stop a dev from ever so subtlety tipping the scale against one class to nudge players over to another? That’s a pretty common practice in free to play games. A new item, or gear or class, etc. drops which just so happens to coincide with balance changes that soften the effectiveness of existing strategies.

Having a class change system incentivizes ZOS to market and thus balance around that fact. Rather than trying to make all the options appealing to incentivize alts.

You mean it might incentivize them to actually balance the game? What a novel concept. Also I'm literally arguing that this token in the crown store will allow them to turn a bigger profit. Furthermore this game is not free to play. You need to buy it. Lastly, if ZoS is truly tipping the scales to be imbalanced on purpose then that's a pretty serious separate issue that needs to be looked at. Underhanded and shady to say the least.

You can’t say for sure that a class token will turn a profit. It’s completely speculative. The statements I’ve made about the value of time invested are proven across multiple mercantile mediums. Customer engagement is always highly valued in not only digitally interactive media, but other markets as well.

Predatory monetization is rampant in f2p games, and it’s bleeding over to b2p as well (see the Star Wars Battlefront 2 debacle). I was not stating ESO is a free to play game, but rather demonstrating the profit driven decisions made in regards to balance in f2p games as it relates to a negative potential of a class change option.

ESO’s current balance issues are totally indifferent to either side of the argument and more relative to the inexperience of ZOS. Along with the hampering component of trying to maintain class uniqueness and identity while still letting ESO stay true to the TES identity and play as you want mentality.

Completely agree that balance issues (even though we clearly disagree on that as well) is a separate monster so that aside, you're assuming that people buying this token will then spend less time playing the game. But isn't the whole point of grinding up an alt to use it to play the content? So someone who buys a class change token will not only be spending money but playing the same amount of time just on content that is actually enjoyable while retaining their acheivments points. These people are going to spend time in the game anyways you'd might as well implement another way to get money out of them.

The bulk of the content in ESO is either not endgame content or indifferent to player level. Most importantly it’s already released. Why would a business want to give players the option to bypass recycling content? A player would run out of endgame content after changing classes longer before the same player would burn through leveling and maximizing an alt whenever they wanted to play a different class.

Having more characters which are actively maintained is going to equate to more time spent in game. It takes more time to wash 2 cars by hand than it does 1.

Also each alt presents more opportunities to spent crowns on. Whether they are mounts and their upgrades, inventory related items or cosmetics. It’s as well a built in time sink for future expansions because playing through the expansions multiple times with alts will take more time than doing it once.

I'm willing to bet there's a large swath of players who don't buy the crownstore items that are mount upgrades and bag upgrades. The price is not relative to the benefit they provide. The service isn't unique and it's expensive. The class change token would be pricy and offer a unique service, therefore being something that would be enticing to purchase. Someone who would purchase a class change token would still be maybe inclined to purchase things such as costumes or mounts however as those are also unique and not canabalized by a class change token.

Also the "bulk" of the content may not be dependent on level but all of the PvE end-game content is. Which is what I imagine, what the typical player who is invested enough in the game to even want to make an alt wants to do.

Yes obviously they want us to play more and I'm telling you the people that are invested enough to create alts or buy the token are going to be spending the time playing this regardless. It's just thay with the token some players will be spending that time actually having fun.

I mention the upgrades for mounts and storage because they exist. The majority of sales, as with most cash shops, are cosmetics. With that being said, once again it’s an RPG. For many people, each character has a unique identity. One most often expressed by differing cosmetic items between characters. More characters played translates to more potential cosmetic items sold.

People play the game for all sorts of reasons. Difference of experience isn’t of unique desirability only to endgame players. To a great many in ESO, leveling alts is fun.

Math is a thing you know. It takes more time to do dailies with multiple characters than it does with one.

Fun is the crux of this ultimately. You’re not having fun, and you don’t have fun leveling. That’s called burn out.

Ranger209

Chronicburn wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

No.

The game is already easy enough and players get nearly everything they want.

That’s your opinion, why not let others do what they want?

If we let everyone do what they want the level of chaos that will ensue shall be epic

Apache_Kid

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

Again, I understand that. However, unlike Skyrim, the end-game PvE content in ESO requires you to be veteran rank. Thus making leveling alts a chore for the more avid players. Furthermore I'm not even advocaring for this as a work-around leveling an alt as I stated above it can be done pretty quickly. Yes others might chose to use it that way (putting money in pocket of Zos) Rather, I think it's the only reasonable solution in a game where the developers are constantly re-balancing the game, as of this year adding new classes, to allow the players to change the class of a character they have 20k+ acheivment points on. Some of these acheivments take days on end to complete and in a game where the developers are constantly changing and sometimes breaking classes (see magplar dmg calc issues and NB skills not working) the players should reserve the right to pay a fee to switch classes. This isn't unreasonable. It's not even about me despite your efforts to paint me as selfish. 6 months ago I would've changed the class of my main in a heartbeat but I've grown to love it. However I know many players who would still change their class if they could and I think they deserve the right to do so.

Balance changes are done in many games, but it’s not a good reason to be able to change classes. I’ll defend what I find to be reasonable business practices. Which I do for not having a class change as it’s antithetical to the ESO revenue set up. Be that as it may, if you really want to have the discussion focus on class balance. Let’s look at the otherside...

A business exists make a profit. So in regards to class balance, what would stop a dev from ever so subtlety tipping the scale against one class to nudge players over to another? That’s a pretty common practice in free to play games. A new item, or gear or class, etc. drops which just so happens to coincide with balance changes that soften the effectiveness of existing strategies.

Having a class change system incentivizes ZOS to market and thus balance around that fact. Rather than trying to make all the options appealing to incentivize alts.

You mean it might incentivize them to actually balance the game? What a novel concept. Also I'm literally arguing that this token in the crown store will allow them to turn a bigger profit. Furthermore this game is not free to play. You need to buy it. Lastly, if ZoS is truly tipping the scales to be imbalanced on purpose then that's a pretty serious separate issue that needs to be looked at. Underhanded and shady to say the least.

You can’t say for sure that a class token will turn a profit. It’s completely speculative. The statements I’ve made about the value of time invested are proven across multiple mercantile mediums. Customer engagement is always highly valued in not only digitally interactive media, but other markets as well.

Predatory monetization is rampant in f2p games, and it’s bleeding over to b2p as well (see the Star Wars Battlefront 2 debacle). I was not stating ESO is a free to play game, but rather demonstrating the profit driven decisions made in regards to balance in f2p games as it relates to a negative potential of a class change option.

ESO’s current balance issues are totally indifferent to either side of the argument and more relative to the inexperience of ZOS. Along with the hampering component of trying to maintain class uniqueness and identity while still letting ESO stay true to the TES identity and play as you want mentality.

Completely agree that balance issues (even though we clearly disagree on that as well) is a separate monster so that aside, you're assuming that people buying this token will then spend less time playing the game. But isn't the whole point of grinding up an alt to use it to play the content? So someone who buys a class change token will not only be spending money but playing the same amount of time just on content that is actually enjoyable while retaining their acheivments points. These people are going to spend time in the game anyways you'd might as well implement another way to get money out of them.

The bulk of the content in ESO is either not endgame content or indifferent to player level. Most importantly it’s already released. Why would a business want to give players the option to bypass recycling content? A player would run out of endgame content after changing classes longer before the same player would burn through leveling and maximizing an alt whenever they wanted to play a different class.

Having more characters which are actively maintained is going to equate to more time spent in game. It takes more time to wash 2 cars by hand than it does 1.

Also each alt presents more opportunities to spent crowns on. Whether they are mounts and their upgrades, inventory related items or cosmetics. It’s as well a built in time sink for future expansions because playing through the expansions multiple times with alts will take more time than doing it once.

I'm willing to bet there's a large swath of players who don't buy the crownstore items that are mount upgrades and bag upgrades. The price is not relative to the benefit they provide. The service isn't unique and it's expensive. The class change token would be pricy and offer a unique service, therefore being something that would be enticing to purchase. Someone who would purchase a class change token would still be maybe inclined to purchase things such as costumes or mounts however as those are also unique and not canabalized by a class change token.

Also the "bulk" of the content may not be dependent on level but all of the PvE end-game content is. Which is what I imagine, what the typical player who is invested enough in the game to even want to make an alt wants to do.

Yes obviously they want us to play more and I'm telling you the people that are invested enough to create alts or buy the token are going to be spending the time playing this regardless. It's just thay with the token some players will be spending that time actually having fun.

I mention the upgrades for mounts and storage because they exist. The majority of sales, as with most cash shops, are cosmetics. With that being said, once again it’s an RPG. For many people, each character has a unique identity. One most often expressed by differing cosmetic items between characters. More characters played translates to more potential cosmetic items sold.

People play the game for all sorts of reasons. Difference of experience isn’t of unique desirability only to endgame players. To a great many in ESO, leveling alts is fun.

Math is a thing you know. It takes more time to do dailies with multiple characters than it does with one.

Fun is the crux of this ultimately. You’re not having fun, and you don’t have fun leveling. That’s called burn out.

That's not true at all. Because I don't like leveling alts I'm burnt out? Not in the slightest. I enjoy PvP (which I cannot play til December 4th) and I enjoy PvE veteran content. Leveling isn't fun. Quests aren't fun even The 2nd time through and grinding mobs isn't either. Why do you think you see so many people run skyreach? Id be willing to bet the majority of people who level alts dont enjoy it. I know none of my friends do. If we dont enjoy it thats not on us, its on the process for being boring. The crux of the issue for me is that I don't believe this is going to deter anyone from leveling alts and the few that do you get money out of. That's it.

Actually_Goku

I've just read most of this thread, and I'd say that 9/10 are in favour of alliance change, but against class change at the same time. Seems fair.

Make it happen ZOS!

Vanthras79

I can just predict people would be like: "BRB changing to the FOTM class."

dday3six

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

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Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

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VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

Again, I understand that. However, unlike Skyrim, the end-game PvE content in ESO requires you to be veteran rank. Thus making leveling alts a chore for the more avid players. Furthermore I'm not even advocaring for this as a work-around leveling an alt as I stated above it can be done pretty quickly. Yes others might chose to use it that way (putting money in pocket of Zos) Rather, I think it's the only reasonable solution in a game where the developers are constantly re-balancing the game, as of this year adding new classes, to allow the players to change the class of a character they have 20k+ acheivment points on. Some of these acheivments take days on end to complete and in a game where the developers are constantly changing and sometimes breaking classes (see magplar dmg calc issues and NB skills not working) the players should reserve the right to pay a fee to switch classes. This isn't unreasonable. It's not even about me despite your efforts to paint me as selfish. 6 months ago I would've changed the class of my main in a heartbeat but I've grown to love it. However I know many players who would still change their class if they could and I think they deserve the right to do so.

Balance changes are done in many games, but it’s not a good reason to be able to change classes. I’ll defend what I find to be reasonable business practices. Which I do for not having a class change as it’s antithetical to the ESO revenue set up. Be that as it may, if you really want to have the discussion focus on class balance. Let’s look at the otherside...

A business exists make a profit. So in regards to class balance, what would stop a dev from ever so subtlety tipping the scale against one class to nudge players over to another? That’s a pretty common practice in free to play games. A new item, or gear or class, etc. drops which just so happens to coincide with balance changes that soften the effectiveness of existing strategies.

Having a class change system incentivizes ZOS to market and thus balance around that fact. Rather than trying to make all the options appealing to incentivize alts.

You mean it might incentivize them to actually balance the game? What a novel concept. Also I'm literally arguing that this token in the crown store will allow them to turn a bigger profit. Furthermore this game is not free to play. You need to buy it. Lastly, if ZoS is truly tipping the scales to be imbalanced on purpose then that's a pretty serious separate issue that needs to be looked at. Underhanded and shady to say the least.

You can’t say for sure that a class token will turn a profit. It’s completely speculative. The statements I’ve made about the value of time invested are proven across multiple mercantile mediums. Customer engagement is always highly valued in not only digitally interactive media, but other markets as well.

Predatory monetization is rampant in f2p games, and it’s bleeding over to b2p as well (see the Star Wars Battlefront 2 debacle). I was not stating ESO is a free to play game, but rather demonstrating the profit driven decisions made in regards to balance in f2p games as it relates to a negative potential of a class change option.

ESO’s current balance issues are totally indifferent to either side of the argument and more relative to the inexperience of ZOS. Along with the hampering component of trying to maintain class uniqueness and identity while still letting ESO stay true to the TES identity and play as you want mentality.

Completely agree that balance issues (even though we clearly disagree on that as well) is a separate monster so that aside, you're assuming that people buying this token will then spend less time playing the game. But isn't the whole point of grinding up an alt to use it to play the content? So someone who buys a class change token will not only be spending money but playing the same amount of time just on content that is actually enjoyable while retaining their acheivments points. These people are going to spend time in the game anyways you'd might as well implement another way to get money out of them.

The bulk of the content in ESO is either not endgame content or indifferent to player level. Most importantly it’s already released. Why would a business want to give players the option to bypass recycling content? A player would run out of endgame content after changing classes longer before the same player would burn through leveling and maximizing an alt whenever they wanted to play a different class.

Having more characters which are actively maintained is going to equate to more time spent in game. It takes more time to wash 2 cars by hand than it does 1.

Also each alt presents more opportunities to spent crowns on. Whether they are mounts and their upgrades, inventory related items or cosmetics. It’s as well a built in time sink for future expansions because playing through the expansions multiple times with alts will take more time than doing it once.

I'm willing to bet there's a large swath of players who don't buy the crownstore items that are mount upgrades and bag upgrades. The price is not relative to the benefit they provide. The service isn't unique and it's expensive. The class change token would be pricy and offer a unique service, therefore being something that would be enticing to purchase. Someone who would purchase a class change token would still be maybe inclined to purchase things such as costumes or mounts however as those are also unique and not canabalized by a class change token.

Also the "bulk" of the content may not be dependent on level but all of the PvE end-game content is. Which is what I imagine, what the typical player who is invested enough in the game to even want to make an alt wants to do.

Yes obviously they want us to play more and I'm telling you the people that are invested enough to create alts or buy the token are going to be spending the time playing this regardless. It's just thay with the token some players will be spending that time actually having fun.

I mention the upgrades for mounts and storage because they exist. The majority of sales, as with most cash shops, are cosmetics. With that being said, once again it’s an RPG. For many people, each character has a unique identity. One most often expressed by differing cosmetic items between characters. More characters played translates to more potential cosmetic items sold.

People play the game for all sorts of reasons. Difference of experience isn’t of unique desirability only to endgame players. To a great many in ESO, leveling alts is fun.

Math is a thing you know. It takes more time to do dailies with multiple characters than it does with one.

Fun is the crux of this ultimately. You’re not having fun, and you don’t have fun leveling. That’s called burn out.

That's not true at all. Because I don't like leveling alts I'm burnt out? Not in the slightest. I enjoy PvP (which I cannot play til December 4th) and I enjoy PvE veteran content. Leveling isn't fun. Quests aren't fun even The 2nd time through and grinding mobs isn't either. Why do you think you see so many people run skyreach? Id be willing to bet the majority of people who level alts dont enjoy it. I know none of my friends do. If we dont enjoy it thats not on us, its on the process for being boring. The crux of the issue for me is that I don't believe this is going to deter anyone from leveling alts and the few that do you get money out of. That's it.

So we’re back around to the “I want, what I want, and don’t want to be told, no”, ol’ song and dance...

C’est la vie. Que sera, sera.

Believe it or not, but it’s not good business to cater to every niche whim. Reality is that it’s a very small portion of the playerbase that don’t like leveling. ESO is a very causal drop in and drop out sort of game. The representation that endgame players account for is very small.

“All your friends”, you say? People tend to hang around with likeminded people, and it’s unlike you actively maintain dialogue with more than 100 individual players. If ESO on XBOX only had 100,000 players and it’s got a lot more. 100 people would be 0.1%.

At some point you’re going to have to grapple with the fact that just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean it’s the rest of the world’s responsibility to cater to you. If ESO specializes in offering a certain experience, and you don’t enjoy that experience. That alone doesn’t mean it’s ESO which has to alter an otherwise successful business model for you.

VaranisArano

See, I view it more as:

Class Change is clearly the better choice for the consumer, allowing them to immediately play the game they like on a new class without placing obstacles harder than a one-time cash shop purchase in their way.

Class Change is clearly the worse choice for ZOS, who loses out on the enormous amount of time, money, and playtime gained by requiring players to level up alts when they want to play a new class.

Seeing as how its ZOS that owns the game, ZOS won't provide a class change. At least until the economics change to favor grabbing as much in short term cash as they can, aka when the game is shedding players, which it isn't right now.

Apache_Kid

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

Again, I understand that. However, unlike Skyrim, the end-game PvE content in ESO requires you to be veteran rank. Thus making leveling alts a chore for the more avid players. Furthermore I'm not even advocaring for this as a work-around leveling an alt as I stated above it can be done pretty quickly. Yes others might chose to use it that way (putting money in pocket of Zos) Rather, I think it's the only reasonable solution in a game where the developers are constantly re-balancing the game, as of this year adding new classes, to allow the players to change the class of a character they have 20k+ acheivment points on. Some of these acheivments take days on end to complete and in a game where the developers are constantly changing and sometimes breaking classes (see magplar dmg calc issues and NB skills not working) the players should reserve the right to pay a fee to switch classes. This isn't unreasonable. It's not even about me despite your efforts to paint me as selfish. 6 months ago I would've changed the class of my main in a heartbeat but I've grown to love it. However I know many players who would still change their class if they could and I think they deserve the right to do so.

Balance changes are done in many games, but it’s not a good reason to be able to change classes. I’ll defend what I find to be reasonable business practices. Which I do for not having a class change as it’s antithetical to the ESO revenue set up. Be that as it may, if you really want to have the discussion focus on class balance. Let’s look at the otherside...

A business exists make a profit. So in regards to class balance, what would stop a dev from ever so subtlety tipping the scale against one class to nudge players over to another? That’s a pretty common practice in free to play games. A new item, or gear or class, etc. drops which just so happens to coincide with balance changes that soften the effectiveness of existing strategies.

Having a class change system incentivizes ZOS to market and thus balance around that fact. Rather than trying to make all the options appealing to incentivize alts.

You mean it might incentivize them to actually balance the game? What a novel concept. Also I'm literally arguing that this token in the crown store will allow them to turn a bigger profit. Furthermore this game is not free to play. You need to buy it. Lastly, if ZoS is truly tipping the scales to be imbalanced on purpose then that's a pretty serious separate issue that needs to be looked at. Underhanded and shady to say the least.

You can’t say for sure that a class token will turn a profit. It’s completely speculative. The statements I’ve made about the value of time invested are proven across multiple mercantile mediums. Customer engagement is always highly valued in not only digitally interactive media, but other markets as well.

Predatory monetization is rampant in f2p games, and it’s bleeding over to b2p as well (see the Star Wars Battlefront 2 debacle). I was not stating ESO is a free to play game, but rather demonstrating the profit driven decisions made in regards to balance in f2p games as it relates to a negative potential of a class change option.

ESO’s current balance issues are totally indifferent to either side of the argument and more relative to the inexperience of ZOS. Along with the hampering component of trying to maintain class uniqueness and identity while still letting ESO stay true to the TES identity and play as you want mentality.

Completely agree that balance issues (even though we clearly disagree on that as well) is a separate monster so that aside, you're assuming that people buying this token will then spend less time playing the game. But isn't the whole point of grinding up an alt to use it to play the content? So someone who buys a class change token will not only be spending money but playing the same amount of time just on content that is actually enjoyable while retaining their acheivments points. These people are going to spend time in the game anyways you'd might as well implement another way to get money out of them.

The bulk of the content in ESO is either not endgame content or indifferent to player level. Most importantly it’s already released. Why would a business want to give players the option to bypass recycling content? A player would run out of endgame content after changing classes longer before the same player would burn through leveling and maximizing an alt whenever they wanted to play a different class.

Having more characters which are actively maintained is going to equate to more time spent in game. It takes more time to wash 2 cars by hand than it does 1.

Also each alt presents more opportunities to spent crowns on. Whether they are mounts and their upgrades, inventory related items or cosmetics. It’s as well a built in time sink for future expansions because playing through the expansions multiple times with alts will take more time than doing it once.

I'm willing to bet there's a large swath of players who don't buy the crownstore items that are mount upgrades and bag upgrades. The price is not relative to the benefit they provide. The service isn't unique and it's expensive. The class change token would be pricy and offer a unique service, therefore being something that would be enticing to purchase. Someone who would purchase a class change token would still be maybe inclined to purchase things such as costumes or mounts however as those are also unique and not canabalized by a class change token.

Also the "bulk" of the content may not be dependent on level but all of the PvE end-game content is. Which is what I imagine, what the typical player who is invested enough in the game to even want to make an alt wants to do.

Yes obviously they want us to play more and I'm telling you the people that are invested enough to create alts or buy the token are going to be spending the time playing this regardless. It's just thay with the token some players will be spending that time actually having fun.

I mention the upgrades for mounts and storage because they exist. The majority of sales, as with most cash shops, are cosmetics. With that being said, once again it’s an RPG. For many people, each character has a unique identity. One most often expressed by differing cosmetic items between characters. More characters played translates to more potential cosmetic items sold.

People play the game for all sorts of reasons. Difference of experience isn’t of unique desirability only to endgame players. To a great many in ESO, leveling alts is fun.

Math is a thing you know. It takes more time to do dailies with multiple characters than it does with one.

Fun is the crux of this ultimately. You’re not having fun, and you don’t have fun leveling. That’s called burn out.

That's not true at all. Because I don't like leveling alts I'm burnt out? Not in the slightest. I enjoy PvP (which I cannot play til December 4th) and I enjoy PvE veteran content. Leveling isn't fun. Quests aren't fun even The 2nd time through and grinding mobs isn't either. Why do you think you see so many people run skyreach? Id be willing to bet the majority of people who level alts dont enjoy it. I know none of my friends do. If we dont enjoy it thats not on us, its on the process for being boring. The crux of the issue for me is that I don't believe this is going to deter anyone from leveling alts and the few that do you get money out of. That's it.

So we’re back around to the “I want, what I want, and don’t want to be told, no”, ol’ song and dance...

C’est la vie. Que sera, sera.

Believe it or not, but it’s not good business to cater to every niche whim. Reality is that it’s a very small portion of the playerbase that don’t like leveling. ESO is a very causal drop in and drop out sort of game. The representation that endgame players account for is very small.

“All your friends”, you say? People tend to hang around with likeminded people, and it’s unlike you actively maintain dialogue with more than 100 individual players. If ESO on XBOX only had 100,000 players and it’s got a lot more. 100 people would be 0.1%.

At some point you’re going to have to grapple with the fact that just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean it’s the rest of the world’s responsibility to cater to you. If ESO specializes in offering a certain experience, and you don’t enjoy that experience. That alone doesn’t mean it’s ESO which has to alter an otherwise successful business model for you.

LMAO you are obsessed with making this about me. A class change token will not affect me as I will not purchase one but I think others deserve to have the option. The only sort of info I have to go on is the people on my friends list and in my guild that I talk to. You are making all sorts of assumptions about the player-base as well. This isn't even remotely about catering to me. I have 8 characters and have no problem leveling an alt it's just boring. You're reaching so hard to try and tarnish my character it's unreal.

Iccotak

Lyserus wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

No.

The game is already easy enough and players get nearly everything they want.

I failed to see the logic in your post

By giving everyone access to everything no matter their choices and/or alliances then you undermine the uniqueness of individual players.
Also the reason as to why class change tokens should not be a thing.

Actually_Goku wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

Everyone would just change to the meta class, constantly.

If it was once per created character, then locked, sure, I can't see why it can't happen. However, the potential for people to abuse unlimited class change tokens would literally break the game.

^THIS^

Iccotak

Alliance/ Class change tokens remove and undermine the need to make new characters.
You're just switching and getting the whole experience with one character which removes re-playability.

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Still waiting on 1 person to come up with a good argument for not allowing a class-change token.

ZOS wanted you to have to spend the time regrinding your character to level 50, the time or crowns to get your new character's mount maxed out, and the money/crowns to max out bag and bank space, and the time/gold to max your crafting skills. Every time you level a new character, you add hours of playtime to the game.

That's why there isn't a class change token. Because not having one benefits ZOS in every way.

Why? If we know ZoS, the class change token would be very expensive. Im thinking around 5000 crowns. At this price, most people will want to role an alt if they want to play another class. You get the benefit of having another character with free slots and only the experience of having a different race without having to buy multiple tokens. Because of it's price I would imagine it would only be used for those who want to change their main character to keep their achievement points.

5000 crowns for a one shot change compared with the hours of playtime that you need to level an alt and the amount of time/gold/crowns they could gain from people doing mount training and bag and bank space? No, ZOS knows exactly where their long term profit is. Class Change tokens are short term profit for ZOS. Grinding Alts is long term profit.

Grinding alts is not long term profit because I could grind out 7 alts and never spend a single dime in the crown store or sub a single time. Me spending 5000 crowns for a class-change puts money directly into their pocket and that's where your argument falls apart.

But it you pay for plus? Was plus justified because you had something to do in game?

Cash shop revenue for non-F2P games is windfall profits. One time, sporadic purchases aren’t guaranteed revenue streams. Hard to plan a business around a bottom line with such fluctuations. Giving players something to do, even if it’s create alts, tends to justify more consistent purchases in the future. Each of those 7 alts presents new opportunities to spend for horse trains or the cosmetics and mounts of the crown store. It’s more room needed for store too. Plus bag or back inventory upgrades look good with a glut of alts. It stretches the ‘length’ of content, keeping players in game. Keeping them engaged. Keeping spending by giving them more opportunities.

You’ve been given good arguments. You simply want what you want, and don’t want to be told no.

No i have not. I have been given arguments that I have dismantled at every turn. Someone could buy a class-change token and still choose to buy the things you listed above in the crown store. I'd argue that making alts give you less of a need for storage as You can buy inventory space with gold and those new characters can now hold things you can't fit into your bank. I have many alts and still want to buy a class-change token. A token like this, expensive as it would surely be if implemented, would mainly appeal to players like myself who have grinded many achievement points on their main character and just want a different experience on that specific character. Being able to change the class of my main WOULD NOT discourage me from making more alts as this way I can play multiple different classes without having to pay for a token. This would not cannibalize anything else in the crown store. I cannont see someone who wants to play multiple different builds buying a class and race change token every single time they want a new class as the cost would simply be too high. And even if a player chose to do this it would give ZoS more money in the long -run than someone not buying these tokens and occasionally buying a costume or what have you.

You’re not dismantling anything with “I would” statements. Which all you’ve been making.

“I would do this, I would do that...”

The playerbase isn’t just you.

It’s a widely known fact of marketing that keeping a customer’s time invested makes the spend more. That’s how a merchant builds loyalty.

I used myself as an example for a type of player that the token would appeal to. You are not providing a good argument by saying that the token would discourage people from purchasing other crown store items. You are claiming that the token would deter people from creating alts which I disagree with and have stated reasons as to why. You are also completely ignoring the money that a token like this would bring in. Having a player who only wants to have 1 character and buy a class change token every time they want to experience a new class (or even change their class back because they didnt like they one they switched to) could very well easily be a larger source of income for ZoS than someone who has 7 alts and a main. Not even considering the race change token a player has to buy in conjunction with the class change if they are switching from stamina to magic build or from a DPS to a Tank build etc. Your argument that adding this as a crown store item would cause a drop in sales of other times is too large of a leap for me. I do not see it causing a drop in crown store revenue.

I haven’t said any of what feign I have. Strawman is Strawman.

Potential profits are great, but consistent profits grease the wheels of business. The model for ESO is built on milking content and continued player engagement. Not having a class change token compliments that. It gives players something to do, which keeps them playing. Which feeds more opportunities to purchase crown items, and justifies the purchase of plus as well as expansions.

A class change circumvents the process. Thus the potential gains this token would need to be weighed against the loss of other potential gains. It’s variables against variables and speculative marketing is risky. Gambling isn’t exactly a great business model.

The “drop” as you put it. Is to player engagement. The time a player spends playing. If a person doesn’t get enough time out of an entertain investment, they have a strong tendency to invest elsewhere.

Yeah but the activities you are suggesting are not entertaining. Doing the same things on alts over and over and over is not fun and this token will be a pricey work-around to not have to re-grind achievement points or what mount speed etc. The current crown store alternatives are too pricey for what they give (riding lessons and space) to be hot-sellers. Give someone the option to keep achievement points and the potential to have to buy a race change token on top of it, now that's real money. If a person has to invest time doing the same content and menial chores over and over they will invest their time elsewhere.

RPG...

Rolling and building new characters is a big part of the experience for much of the audience ESO have cultivated. Why do you think people keep buying Skyrim over and over.

Again the playerbase isn’t just you. They do not all think as you do.

THIS

SydneyGrey

Vanthras79 wrote: »

I can just predict people would be like: "BRB changing to the FOTM class."

Not at 3500 crowns a pop, they won't be. It would cost money, and a lot of it, like the name change and race change.

coplannb16_ESO

Iam all for it. I am still casually leveling a mag Warden with my brothers stam Warden. We are L48 now, and just then realised that he is EP and Iam DC. Some misscommunication when we are made them I guess.

Mureel

Definitely no reason NOT to have alliance change anymore.