Stam DK is Dead!

Gulkrim-mur

Skoomah wrote: »

DPS: Burst is too low to finish the kill.

Heal: Shield spam, cloak spam, tree ult spam, breath of life spam is stronger than DK healing.

Tank: Mag DK, Templars, Wardens, Sorcs, and Nightblades all tank just as good or better.

Sustain: Sustain is just as good or better on the other classes.

Mobility: Stam DK is the worst in the game.

RIP Stam DK. Thanks ZOS for making my favorite character not fun to play anymore. Nothing special about Stam DK anymore.

Go argonian and run reduction glyphs. Poisons and whatever perk in cp tree can reduce recovery ticks also recovery ticks every 2 seconds in combat. Reduction glyph is consistent.

Mending from argonian helps lots also run rapids but use situationally. You can exploit heavy armor being even more tanky then the dk is naturally and even get heal buff from 5 piece healing received perk. This effects self heal.

I see plenty of effective Stam dks most argonian some still redguard. Tri pots with argonian op asf too with that pot perk that heals all resources. With sustain nerfs weaving is best in heavy attacks and in all honesty doesn't hurt burst much at all. Classes didn't get broken metas changed.

Or perhaps 5 medium fortified brass, or if you enjoy heavy more backbar bow for dodgeroll speed

Arthg

DrInsanity666 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

DPS: Burst is too low to finish the kill.

Heal: Shield spam, cloak spam, tree ult spam, breath of life spam is stronger than DK healing.

Tank: Mag DK, Templars, Wardens, Sorcs, and Nightblades all tank just as good or better.

Sustain: Sustain is just as good or better on the other classes.

Mobility: Stam DK is the worst in the game.

RIP Stam DK. Thanks ZOS for making my favorite character not fun to play anymore. Nothing special about Stam DK anymore.

Go argonian and run reduction glyphs. Poisons and whatever perk in cp tree can reduce recovery ticks also recovery ticks every 2 seconds in combat. Reduction glyph is consistent.

Mending from argonian helps lots also run rapids but use situationally. You can exploit heavy armor being even more tanky then the dk is naturally and even get heal buff from 5 piece healing received perk. This effects self heal.

I see plenty of effective Stam dks most argonian some still redguard. Tri pots with argonian op asf too with that pot perk that heals all resources. With sustain nerfs weaving is best in heavy attacks and in all honesty doesn't hurt burst much at all. Classes didn't get broken metas changed.

Or perhaps 5 medium fortified brass, or if you enjoy heavy more backbar bow for dodgeroll speed

No one's asking for the cheese potato-peeling meta "build".

The issue is that if you're competitive, aim for top-tier and want to get a chance to kill really good players, you're better off playing any other class.

That's where stam DKs are atm.

Gulkrim-mur

Arthg wrote: »

DrInsanity666 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

DPS: Burst is too low to finish the kill.

Heal: Shield spam, cloak spam, tree ult spam, breath of life spam is stronger than DK healing.

Tank: Mag DK, Templars, Wardens, Sorcs, and Nightblades all tank just as good or better.

Sustain: Sustain is just as good or better on the other classes.

Mobility: Stam DK is the worst in the game.

RIP Stam DK. Thanks ZOS for making my favorite character not fun to play anymore. Nothing special about Stam DK anymore.

Go argonian and run reduction glyphs. Poisons and whatever perk in cp tree can reduce recovery ticks also recovery ticks every 2 seconds in combat. Reduction glyph is consistent.

Mending from argonian helps lots also run rapids but use situationally. You can exploit heavy armor being even more tanky then the dk is naturally and even get heal buff from 5 piece healing received perk. This effects self heal.

I see plenty of effective Stam dks most argonian some still redguard. Tri pots with argonian op asf too with that pot perk that heals all resources. With sustain nerfs weaving is best in heavy attacks and in all honesty doesn't hurt burst much at all. Classes didn't get broken metas changed.

Or perhaps 5 medium fortified brass, or if you enjoy heavy more backbar bow for dodgeroll speed

No one's asking for the cheese potato-peeling meta "build".

The issue is that if you're competitive, aim for top-tier and want to get a chance to kill really good players, you're better off playing any other class.

That's where stam DKs are atm.

Easy he said its his favorite class it is perfectly viable tho i agree it can use tweaks. None the less not dead

Durham

Smmokkee wrote: »

All the noobs rerolling because there class isnt competitive anymore? Lolololololol so funny. Its hilarious watching someone like AceMercs faceroll people on his medium armor stamdk. *** last night he beat a MagNB dueling build on his open world stam dk and its not like the mag nb was incompetent either.

Wow so a DK won a fight... no one said they couldnt.. People are simply saying that if you go up against an = skilled player atm with a DK you are at a disadvantage you still get a kill if they make critical mistake..

OUT OF THE STAM CLASSES they are last atm... You will still see them out because of their ability to troll tank but other then that another class is currently better in you small man...

TheDoomsdayMonster

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

And yet I see a crap ton of stamDKs in both pve and pvp.

I was thinking the exact same thing; if StamDK's are dead, then why are there so many of them running around Cyrodiil?

Durham

I still play mine every night no one is saying you never see them in Cyrodil...

AverageJo3Gam3r

@TheDoomsdayMonster 1. Because some people think it's fun to be a block troll. 2. PvE rerolls are unlocking vigor and caltrops. 3. PvE tanks are unlocking warhorn and vigor.

kengur22

[PVP] Stamina DK dead and Sorcer OP

Nihility42

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

And yet I see a crap ton of stamDKs in both pve and pvp.

I was thinking the exact same thing; if StamDK's are dead, then why are there so many of them running around Cyrodiil?

StamDK is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, DPS classes in PVE. So there are probably a lot of people trying to get caltrops/vigor. Plus all the tank going for warhorn. I know that's why I originally took my StamDK into PVP =. And also what inspired me to roll an alt for PVP because StamDK sucks.

Skoomah

I barely run into any Stam DKs to actually fight in real battle I Cyrodiil. All I ever encounter are the block-tards that run up to a Zerg and start holding block. How often do you run into a Stam DK that gives you a real battle? The rarity shows you how uncompetitive the class is in pvp which is why many choose to play another class.

I test my Stam DK in Cyrodiil and Stormhaven every night and my opponents of different classes tank and sustain just as good as my DK. That's what we are suppposef to excel at though. So what is our distinct advantage? Where is the rocks papers scissors?

Thogard

The only Stam DKs I see these days in Cyro are Zerg surfers still playing their first toon, guard bots, and a decreasing number of veteran players who are carried by skill alone and begrudgingly refuse to reroll to stamden because of all the time (and AP) they have invested in their Stam DKs.

You can spot the latter pretty easily because they talk nonstop about the “stamden” meta and how they refuse to adapt

But they’re not wrong ... sDK really is dead. Now that permablock is gone, the last reason to play sDK in PvP has gone with it

Templars are better guard bots. Stamdens are better 1vX. Any Stam class with heavy armor and defile is better 1v1. Stam sorcs and Stamdens and stamplars are all more mobile and have higher burst dmg for small group PvP. Stamdens are harder to kill.

Stam DK is bad at a lot of things but it isn’t good at anything

Ragnarock41

Skoomah wrote: »

I barely run into any Stam DKs to actually fight in real battle I Cyrodiil. All I ever encounter are the block-tards that run up to a Zerg and start holding block. How often do you run into a Stam DK that gives you a real battle? The rarity shows you how uncompetitive the class is in pvp which is why many choose to play another class.

I think Its about time you let this thread die.
Nothing good will come out of this, in the PTS right now you have warden buffs.
That is all you need to see, really.

I mean, seriously, let it go already. Its pointless.

Adenoma

It is actually pretty offensive that the patch notes leave out a lot of things that people have at least asked for discussion regarding. There's no mention of stamden nerfs (shimmering shield especially in my mind - major heroism is a busted buff), no suggestions to increase MagWarden DPS in PvE, complete neutering of magDK in PvE and simultaneous potentially unbalanced buffs to power lash, no mention of changes to earthgore, and potentially absurd interrupt-immune dark dealing/exchanging on sorcs.

There were a lot of good changes in those notes, but good god they missed a lot of things and it seems like people aren't pointing that out because they're too excited about AOE caps being removed or QOL changes like housing storage or outfits.

Xvorg

There must be a solution...

Anyone has tried Pelinal's for a Full heavy build?

Maybe a 2H build using Follow up and empower

Ragnarock41

Xvorg wrote: »

There must be a solution...

Anyone has tried Pelinal's for a Full heavy build?

Maybe a 2H build using Follow up and empower

I mean... what stops me from using follow up+empower on a stamsorc build?They are amazing with a 2h.
And pretty decent with dual wield.
and performing better with zero sustain/mobility issues.

Yeah.. literally nothing, Soo.. back to the drawing board.

Xvorg

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

There must be a solution...

Anyone has tried Pelinal's for a Full heavy build?

Maybe a 2H build using Follow up and empower

I mean... what stops me from using follow up+empower on a stamsorc build?They are amazing with a 2h.
And pretty decent with dual wield.
and performing better with zero sustain/mobility issues.

Yeah.. literally nothing, Soo.. back to the drawing board.

No, I meant the extra dmg on full heavy done by molten armaments. Paired with a magicka set that increases spell dmg.

Though mobility is an issue.

Besides, a full HA build shouldn't aim for sustain

Ragnarock41

Xvorg wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

There must be a solution...

Anyone has tried Pelinal's for a Full heavy build?

Maybe a 2H build using Follow up and empower

I mean... what stops me from using follow up+empower on a stamsorc build?They are amazing with a 2h.
And pretty decent with dual wield.
and performing better with zero sustain/mobility issues.

Yeah.. literally nothing, Soo.. back to the drawing board.

No, I meant the extra dmg on full heavy done by molten armaments. Paired with a magicka set that increases spell dmg.

Though mobility is an issue.

Besides, a full HA build shouldn't aim for sustain

Oh..that. I tried molten before, with a high weapon damage setup. damage still sucks. heavy attacks dont do that much damage, and they are veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slow.
I mean, really, really really really really slow.
Not to mention nobody will sit in front of you and let you heavy attack them.
And even if you land that heavy attack, its still very low damage, low enough that 1 vigor tick heals it.

Xvorg

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

There must be a solution...

Anyone has tried Pelinal's for a Full heavy build?

Maybe a 2H build using Follow up and empower

I mean... what stops me from using follow up+empower on a stamsorc build?They are amazing with a 2h.
And pretty decent with dual wield.
and performing better with zero sustain/mobility issues.

Yeah.. literally nothing, Soo.. back to the drawing board.

No, I meant the extra dmg on full heavy done by molten armaments. Paired with a magicka set that increases spell dmg.

Though mobility is an issue.

Besides, a full HA build shouldn't aim for sustain

Oh..that. I tried molten before, with a high weapon damage setup. damage still sucks. heavy attacks dont do that much damage, and they are veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slow.
I mean, really, really really really really slow.
Not to mention nobody will sit in front of you and let you heavy attack them.
And even if you land that heavy attack, its still very low damage, low enough that 1 vigor tick heals it.

Ragnarock41

Xvorg wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

There must be a solution...

Anyone has tried Pelinal's for a Full heavy build?

Maybe a 2H build using Follow up and empower

I mean... what stops me from using follow up+empower on a stamsorc build?They are amazing with a 2h.
And pretty decent with dual wield.
and performing better with zero sustain/mobility issues.

Yeah.. literally nothing, Soo.. back to the drawing board.

No, I meant the extra dmg on full heavy done by molten armaments. Paired with a magicka set that increases spell dmg.

Though mobility is an issue.

Besides, a full HA build shouldn't aim for sustain

Oh..that. I tried molten before, with a high weapon damage setup. damage still sucks. heavy attacks dont do that much damage, and they are veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slow.
I mean, really, really really really really slow.
Not to mention nobody will sit in front of you and let you heavy attack them.
And even if you land that heavy attack, its still very low damage, low enough that 1 vigor tick heals it.

yeah. that will be your face if you actually try that pelinals magicka sDk build in game.
Tho pelinals is really nice for a werewolf build.

Warraxx

grownmancrying.gif

Waffennacht

Or you could be magicka?

Dedricus

Hadn't seen anyone discussing it yet so I made a post on the PTS forum. Check it out and please guys, only give good info for the devs.

BohnT

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

Kronuxx

You guys are beating a dead horse. Nothing in november/december combat update. Nothing in PTS patch notes. We'll see what the January combat update notes show, but I'm not hopeful. Love my Stam DK, been playing him forever, but...I am getting tired of it. If the January doesn't bring something unique or helpful for us, then I don't think anything of significance will change for Stam DK's anytime soon.

Aedaryl

You guys seems to be epic bad player.

You didn't notice 1h&S is the meta ? You didn't notice Blocking is the meta ? You didn't notice Stam DK was the king of blocking ? You didn't notice DK is dancing in the meta ?

When I read "dk is not viable", "beating a dead horse" or stam dk is "weak" it just make me laughting.

Your class is VERY GOOD in PvP, it has changed, and it's not that easy than before, but it's still META.

Be happy guys, base block cost is reduced by something around 500 next patch.

TrinityBreaker

Aedaryl wrote: »

You guys seems to be epic bad player.

You didn't notice 1h&S is the meta ? You didn't notice Blocking is the meta ? You didn't notice Stam DK was the king of blocking ? You didn't notice DK is dancing in the meta ?

When I read "dk is not viable", "beating a dead horse" or stam dk is "weak" it just make me laughting.

Your class is VERY GOOD in PvP, it has changed, and it's not that easy than before, but it's still META.

Be happy guys, base block cost is reduced by something around 500 next patch.

Im fairly certain no one here(myself included) is talking about META. We're talking about the class identity of Stam DK and how it lacks one/is the worst stam class out of all stam classes. Please go back and re-read everything in this thread before you say some more stupid S-H-I-T.

BohnT

Aedaryl wrote: »

You guys seems to be epic bad player.

You didn't notice 1h&S is the meta ? You didn't notice Blocking is the meta ? You didn't notice Stam DK was the king of blocking ? You didn't notice DK is dancing in the meta ?

When I read "dk is not viable", "beating a dead horse" or stam dk is "weak" it just make me laughting.

Your class is VERY GOOD in PvP, it has changed, and it's not that easy than before, but it's still META.

Be happy guys, base block cost is reduced by something around 500 next patch.

And the block cost ceiling is increased by 400%.

You play pet sorc in pvp and have no idea how other classes work go to the sorc post, you at least played it not very well but you did

Ragnarock41

Aedaryl wrote: »

You guys seems to be epic bad player.

Tells a pet sorc player.. sure thing buddy.

Also that ''meta'' you talk about was back in one tamriel.

You are the one beating the dead horse here.

Aedaryl

Skoomah wrote: »

DPS: Burst is too low to finish the kill.

Heal: Shield spam, cloak spam, tree ult spam, breath of life spam is stronger than DK healing.

Tank: Mag DK, Templars, Wardens, Sorcs, and Nightblades all tank just as good or better.

Sustain: Sustain is just as good or better on the other classes.

Mobility: Stam DK is the worst in the game.

RIP Stam DK. Thanks ZOS for making my favorite character not fun to play anymore. Nothing special about Stam DK anymore.

@TrinityBreaker Just quote the OP. SO much errors there. When people use worlds like " dks is not viable in pvp", "dk is dead", they are saying DK. They aren't saying the builds outside of the meta build that's used by almsot everyone.

When you speak to player and to devs, you guys need to be clear. People will take what you say more seriously.

@BohnT and @Ragnarock41 , you just seems stupid when your saying I'm playing pet sorc and so I can't have an objective point of vue on balance.

By saying "you play pet sorc" you just make you non credible. Pet sorc isn't a build. Pet sorc is 3 differents skills different from classical sorc. That's mean saying pet sorc is stupid, because you can have 1 or 2 pets, deadric pray or not.

Also, you seems to forget I'm playing pet sorc in openworld and make it work. And I'm one of-, if not the only one to bring pet sorc in pvp for years with effective results. Your image of pet sorc is biased and false. No, the pet sorc is not only the full damage build in Bergama that's not viable outside of 1v1.

Try to bring mechanics everyone calls not viable, theorycraft around it to have what you need for openworld, bring it there and make it work.

Then come back here telling me "ur a pet sorc lol no u have ni skill".

Playing a class doesn't mean you can't play other class. Playing a class doesn't mean you don't know mechanics of others class.

Skoomah

Please keep this thread about Stam DKs.