Balancing Ultimate Regeneration

Vilestride

I mean, all of this seems to be on the basis that ball groups are bad. Is that really the case?

If we are working on the premise that the game used to be good and no longer is, which I don't particularly agree with but anyway. then one would argue that there used to be far more ball groups than there are today.

IxSTALKERxI

Vilestride wrote: »

I mean, all of this seems to be on the basis that ball groups are bad. Is that really the case?

If we are working on the premise that the game used to be good and no longer is, which I don't particularly agree with but anyway. then one would argue that there used to be far more ball groups than there are today.

I don't think that ball groups are bad. The problem I have is they have become the only viable playstyle in cyrodiil. Solo and small scale pvp is hard to come by, everyone runs around next to 40 people. I would like it if all playstyles were viable in cyrodiil.

Vilestride

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I mean, all of this seems to be on the basis that ball groups are bad. Is that really the case?

If we are working on the premise that the game used to be good and no longer is, which I don't particularly agree with but anyway. then one would argue that there used to be far more ball groups than there are today.

I don't think that ball groups are bad. The problem I have is they have become the only viable playstyle in cyrodiil. Solo and small scale pvp is hard to come by, everyone runs around next to 40 people. I would like it if all playstyles were viable in cyrodiil.

I agree with this sentiment completely, I just don't think the issue actually has anything to do with ball groups or their metas. I think it's more relevant to small scale metas and most importantly the objective layout and priorities of cyrodil. I've said it before, if a resource is worth the same as a keep why would people be surprised to be zerged down by 24 mans when they are looking for smallscale on resources and transit routes. There currently is no objective advantage to running smallscale. That's the issue, not the meta in my opinion.

IxSTALKERxI

Vilestride wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I mean, all of this seems to be on the basis that ball groups are bad. Is that really the case?

If we are working on the premise that the game used to be good and no longer is, which I don't particularly agree with but anyway. then one would argue that there used to be far more ball groups than there are today.

I don't think that ball groups are bad. The problem I have is they have become the only viable playstyle in cyrodiil. Solo and small scale pvp is hard to come by, everyone runs around next to 40 people. I would like it if all playstyles were viable in cyrodiil.

I agree with this sentiment completely, I just don't think the issue actually has anything to do with ball groups or their metas. I think it's more relevant to small scale metas and most importantly the objective layout and priorities of cyrodil. I've said it before, if a resource is worth the same as a keep why would people be surprised to be zerged down by 24 mans when they are looking for smallscale on resources and transit routes. There currently is no objective advantage to running smallscale. That's the issue, not the meta in my opinion.

Yep. I also don't like certain aspects of the current large scale meta though. I would like some kind of hybrid between the current meta and shadow of the hist. Earthgore, vd and destro ult makes stamina less relevant in large scale and I'd like to see the gap between the two decreased with the removal of damage AoE caps to compensate.

zyk

Ball groups aren't inherently bad, but some metas make them OP and therefore subject to balancing. This was true back in 2.2 before Barrier, Rapids and Purge were changed, and it's true again thanks to Earthgore.

ZOS doesn't seem to realize when they introduce an OP set or ability to help the average casual player, they are also helping the best players who will be the ones who best utilize it. There is a long history of this with abilities like Proxy Det and sets like Vicious Death. I think even the Destro ult was intended to be really easy for anyone to use and kill things with.

The ZOS answer to balance issues is usually to increase complexity by introducing a new set or ability to counter what's OP, but increasing complexity just makes the game more difficult to balance in the long run.

I want to add that I don't use the term casual as an insult. Though I sometimes PVP a lot, I'm often pretty casual about PVP too. The reason I think it's relevant is because ESO has a lot of casual players, which I don't think is a bad thing, but I believe ZOS wants to give them the tools to be more competitive against those who spend more time playing -- which is the wrong approach, IMO, and creates more problems than it fixes.

Anazasi

There is nothing wrong with ball groups. It's world PVP right. I understand the small groups tend to suffer more in this environment but to be honest the game has always been about guild groups and large scale fights. In fact this entire thread is not about anything other than balancing ultimate regen. Yes I am completely aware of the unique aspects of each class and how they individually have increased bonuses for ulti regen. Mind you SORC's is only 15% reduced cost not 20%. The issue and argument that is being made is one of math. While i agree that NB's should have an added bonus to Ulti regen because of the nature of the class, I don't believe that NB's should have an overwhelming bonus which Catalyst provides. If I wanted to prove my point I could easily set up a test environment record the amount of time it takes each class to generate ultimate from 0 to 250. If such a test was done you would find that nightblades generate x% faster (recorded in seconds on single target) than any other class. This disparity is my point. If ZOS doesn't look at this particular problem in this way the end result will be less desirable by the community at large. ZOS has proven in the past they are more likely to nerf abilities rather than passives. The have proven they are more likely to make 100 small minor changes instead of addressing the root of the problem. The have proven they are more likely to introduce more problems through gear and helm sets than actually addressing the cause.

The root of the problem:
Since launch, PVP has been about organized group play (TSYM Skooma Guide). The best groups have always understood that Ultimates are key to winning and they have built their raids to accommodate this fact. Speed has always been second on the priority list of how to be successful and we have seen ZOS meddle with both of these aspects since launch poorly.

All I am suggesting is they reduce the overall ability of the NB class' ultimate gen bonus by removing Catalyst. This is an extremely minor change that would have very little impact on the class or any of its other abilities. But what it would do overall is make the night blades have a class advantage of 5% over other classes instead of 10%. It's minor, it may only increase the time by 10 or 15 seconds or less in actual group play. But seconds are really what we are all looking for. Give another group 5 seconds more to react to the current meta and see what the overall impact in PVP could be like.

Please do not make me post screenshots of meta balls running 8 nightblades all with fire storm and always able to drop them. I do not want to make this into a destro ulti witch hunt. I am not trying to get the nightblades nerfed into oblivion. I am simply trying to follow the logic of balance by suggesting 1 extremely minor change that might only increase the time it takes for a class to regenerate ultimate by 10 seconds. We all have idea's about balance we all have ideas about why things don't work. Certainly there are some broken sets out there but you and I both know what the likelihood is that ZOS will take them out or change them to a point they are no longer useful. It's better to argue balance here than to leave it up to ZOS to ruin it for everyone.

IxSTALKERxI

Unless you give Warden, sorc, templar and DK a reliable class based gapcloser and spammable class based 8m pbaoe NB's will still be best in slot for bombing in current meta, no matter how much you nerf their ulti gen.

Anazasi wrote: »

If I wanted to prove my point I could easily set up a test environment record the amount of time it takes each class to generate ultimate from 0 to 250. If such a test was done you would find that nightblades generate x% faster (recorded in seconds on single target) than any other class. This disparity is my point.

Wardens generate ultimate faster than night blades so long as they get hit by damage.

Anazasi

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Unless you give Warden, sorc, templar and DK a reliable class based gapcloser and spammable class based 8m pbaoe NB's will still be best in slot for bombing in current meta, no matter how much you nerf their ulti gen.

I know and I honestly want them to be in that place. It's not about the class it's about the class ulti regen. There are enough counters in game to handle the class abilities it's the burst dps they bring with the ultimates and abilities. If we nerf the ulti it kills it for the entire player base. If we nerf the class abilities it kills the class for everyone. If we address the root of the issue ulti regen than the class and the abilities for everyone remains playable.

idk

tl:dr

OP is incorrect that nothing has been done to balance the classes. There have been class passives related to ult gain that have been changed. Unless Zos wants to make everything vanilla the same and make the game boring as hell then I do not see anything changing much.

I did not read past that point since it was incorrect.

EDIT: skimmed down. Bretton and light armor passives are not related to ult regen and therefore have zero bearing on an ult regen discussion. No offense, but helps to keep the OP on topic.

BTW, the Templar prism passive allows the Templar to gain 30 ultimate in 60 seconds on top of the restoring spirit passives that gives a 4% cost reduction which is on par with the NB Catalyst and Transfer passives. Made that comparison since I saw NB was used in the discussion.

Each class has something.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

You are focusing on the wrong talent imo Ta'ran. Here's the situation from my view:
(Speaking about damage only)
1. In pure gvg equal numbers fights all classes are basically balanced.(even stam for the most part)
2. Nb has an advantage against pugs simply due to the fact pugs die easily and there for nbs get large amounts of ulti back from soul harvest.

That's it. Sure nbs other passives and access to easy minor berserk make them decent for dps but imo it's not an overwhelming benefit. Other classes also bring a lot of benefit.

I would gladly trade the ulti gen from soul harvest to make it stun like incap personally.
Also if they made impulse 8m again it would help bring diversity back

asneakybanana

Anazasi wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Unless you give Warden, sorc, templar and DK a reliable class based gapcloser and spammable class based 8m pbaoe NB's will still be best in slot for bombing in current meta, no matter how much you nerf their ulti gen.

I know and I honestly want them to be in that place. It's not about the class it's about the class ulti regen. There are enough counters in game to handle the class abilities it's the burst dps they bring with the ultimates and abilities. If we nerf the ulti it kills it for the entire player base. If we nerf the class abilities it kills the class for everyone. If we address the root of the issue ulti regen than the class and the abilities for everyone remains playable.

Please explain how catalyst is the root of the issue? I just don't 100% understand where you're coming from with this. The amount of times I've seen catalyst 'save' the group is negligible. And tbh if you use catalyst just for ult gen then you're totally screwing your bomb if you use alch (which all bomb blades should unless raid spec requires something different). Or just the fact that if you use a pot on cooldown then get bombed you will have no immovable and make it very easy to get stuck in the back. Using alch 90% of the time this passive goes to waste as you're using it before your bomb so the 20 ult you get just goes into putting you higher above the 250 mark and the losing it. I would be much more sad about the removal of this for pve as that is where a NB actually benefits from this and helps to put them in line with sure DPS since you use your ult on cooldown in pve and need to use your pot on cooldown as well.

Do I think NB could use a slight nerf to bring other classes in line with it? Absolutely but I haven't got the foggiest idea of what to do to it without totally gutting the class for every other playstyle. TBH feels to me like you're on some witch Hunt and while you're so close to finding the witch you picked her brother instead. As many other people mentioned, there are many 'witches' that make NB the best bomber and the base of it being OP is a large list of advantages NB has compared to sorc and DK and the ult gen is just a nice convenience.

Crewt

As a relatively new NB to PvP (I just hit CP160 and put on VD/Spinner), my experience is that NBs do get ultimate back faster, though are very squishy and don't always stay alive long enough to benefit from extra ultimate. Other than easily killing the pugs, it is very hard to kill guild groups or ball groups. This seems ok to me. If I try to bomb a group and they can single target me fast enough, my ultimate is wasted. If they try to run away then I will kill a few of them.

Anazasi

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Unless you give Warden, sorc, templar and DK a reliable class based gapcloser and spammable class based 8m pbaoe NB's will still be best in slot for bombing in current meta, no matter how much you nerf their ulti gen.

I know and I honestly want them to be in that place. It's not about the class it's about the class ulti regen. There are enough counters in game to handle the class abilities it's the burst dps they bring with the ultimates and abilities. If we nerf the ulti it kills it for the entire player base. If we nerf the class abilities it kills the class for everyone. If we address the root of the issue ulti regen than the class and the abilities for everyone remains playable.

Please explain how catalyst is the root of the issue? I just don't 100% understand where you're coming from with this. The amount of times I've seen catalyst 'save' the group is negligible. And tbh if you use catalyst just for ult gen then you're totally screwing your bomb if you use alch (which all bomb blades should unless raid spec requires something different). Or just the fact that if you use a pot on cooldown then get bombed you will have no immovable and make it very easy to get stuck in the back. Using alch 90% of the time this passive goes to waste as you're using it before your bomb so the 20 ult you get just goes into putting you higher above the 250 mark and the losing it. I would be much more sad about the removal of this for pve as that is where a NB actually benefits from this and helps to put them in line with sure DPS since you use your ult on cooldown in pve and need to use your pot on cooldown as well.

Do I think NB could use a slight nerf to bring other classes in line with it? Absolutely but I haven't got the foggiest idea of what to do to it without totally gutting the class for every other playstyle. TBH feels to me like you're on some witch Hunt and while you're so close to finding the witch you picked her brother instead. As many other people mentioned, there are many 'witches' that make NB the best bomber and the base of it being OP is a large list of advantages NB has compared to sorc and DK and the ult gen is just a nice convenience.

Catalyst is not the root of the problem. THE PROBLEM IS ULTIMATE REGENERATION BALANCE. By removing catalyst bonus night blades would have a slight advantage that could be measured in seconds equal to other classes. This type of balance adjustment would not nerf the class beyond usefulness just extend the time it takes for nightblades to cast ultimate.

asneakybanana

Anazasi wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Unless you give Warden, sorc, templar and DK a reliable class based gapcloser and spammable class based 8m pbaoe NB's will still be best in slot for bombing in current meta, no matter how much you nerf their ulti gen.

I know and I honestly want them to be in that place. It's not about the class it's about the class ulti regen. There are enough counters in game to handle the class abilities it's the burst dps they bring with the ultimates and abilities. If we nerf the ulti it kills it for the entire player base. If we nerf the class abilities it kills the class for everyone. If we address the root of the issue ulti regen than the class and the abilities for everyone remains playable.

Please explain how catalyst is the root of the issue? I just don't 100% understand where you're coming from with this. The amount of times I've seen catalyst 'save' the group is negligible. And tbh if you use catalyst just for ult gen then you're totally screwing your bomb if you use alch (which all bomb blades should unless raid spec requires something different). Or just the fact that if you use a pot on cooldown then get bombed you will have no immovable and make it very easy to get stuck in the back. Using alch 90% of the time this passive goes to waste as you're using it before your bomb so the 20 ult you get just goes into putting you higher above the 250 mark and the losing it. I would be much more sad about the removal of this for pve as that is where a NB actually benefits from this and helps to put them in line with sure DPS since you use your ult on cooldown in pve and need to use your pot on cooldown as well.

Do I think NB could use a slight nerf to bring other classes in line with it? Absolutely but I haven't got the foggiest idea of what to do to it without totally gutting the class for every other playstyle. TBH feels to me like you're on some witch Hunt and while you're so close to finding the witch you picked her brother instead. As many other people mentioned, there are many 'witches' that make NB the best bomber and the base of it being OP is a large list of advantages NB has compared to sorc and DK and the ult gen is just a nice convenience.

Catalyst is not the root of the problem. THE PROBLEM IS ULTIMATE REGENERATION BALANCE. By removing catalyst bonus night blades would have a slight advantage that could be measured in seconds equal to other classes. This type of balance adjustment would not nerf the class beyond usefulness just extend the time it takes for nightblades to cast ultimate.

Catalyst isn't the source of NB ult gen. Their ult gen comes from KBs and NB has the easiest time getting those KBs with and 8m pbaoe, a solid gap closer, the ability to stack their damage the highest, a stun the goes through block and the ability to run DW on their main bar. Can't tell you how many times when I bomb that the limiting factor isn't the ultimate generation but waiting for the potion to come off cooldown to proc my alchemist again. When all you need to get is 8 KBs to get your ultimate back and usually if you get one you will get at least 2 or 3 others because of VD then there is no question that the real source of these ultimate generation issues is combat frenzy. Our damage DKs can do the same thing as our damage nbs of chaining destro Ults because of combat frenzy, DK just doesn't have that solid gap closer and self merciless buff.

ToRelax

Since it has been mentioned several times already now, I think reversing the range nerf on Impulse would be a very bad idea and certainly not help diversity. Every class has AoE skills that could be unique yet competitive with a few tweaks, especially if one balances the game with the meta in mind, so as not to favor certain classes/setups dramatically over others.

Concerning EotS... it is in fact very poorly balanced, and I highly doubt it can be balanced without adding some other major effect while significantly decreasing the damage. Pure damage is almost impossible to balance, especially on an ultimate with that cost. That's just the way it is.
So yeah... mag NB is a good candidate for the current large group meta, but it doesn't make or break it. It's just good at it. And not even because of catalyst...

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

I like that we're calling ambush "reliable" now XD

Accepted that an ability that works 50% or the time is better than one which can put you in a loading screen I guess lol...

Vilestride

It's been pointed out but to reiterate catalyst isn't the issue in this particular case teran. Because clever alchemist nightblades aren't drinking pots to gain ultimate anyway. They save their pot until ultimate is full and they are ready to bomb so as to get the longest use out of clever alchemist.

Again I know that was said already but I don't want that point to get lost. The added ulti gain from front baring soul harvest is much more of a relevant focal point for this topic.

Drummerx04

Vitaely wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

But come on no other class in the game generates ultimate as fast as a nightblade.

Sorcerer: Gets 20% ult cost reduction.
(Doesn't really need extra ultgen passive due to huge ult cost reduction.)

Sorcs get 15% ult cost reduction

Anazasi wrote: »

Breton 3% reduced magic cost
Light Armor 5 piece bonus 10% magic cost reduction

Destro Ultimate cost without other set bonus. 218

48 second recovery = 42 ultimate every 48 seconds just from class passives.

What are you talking about? Breton racial and light armor passives do not affect the cost of ultimates, and short of actual set bonuses that reduce ult cost (which no bomber would wear), only sorcs have a 15% passive ult cost reduction (but no ult gen passives).

Valencer wrote: »

Back when soul tether was the go-to bombing ultimate for raid play people werent slotting soul harvest on the front bar at all and magicka nightblades were still BiS. The class has +8% max magicka, +10% crit damage, minor berserk and a spammable 8m PBAoE. It does the most AoE damage, period, and that's why it's been considered BiS for aeons.

THIS is why NB are the go to bombers. Also add in multi target unblockable undodgeable long duration CC and snares, AND add in cloak for uninterrupted movement, buffing, and a easy ambush, AND some solo bombers could add in the shade port as an escape method... The choice for bomber is pretty obvious.

Although I think he meant +10% crit chance, not damage

Anazasi

Vilestride wrote: »

It's been pointed out but to reiterate catalyst isn't the issue in this particular case teran. Because clever alchemist nightblades aren't drinking pots to gain ultimate anyway. They save their pot until ultimate is full and they are ready to bomb so as to get the longest use out of clever alchemist.

Again I know that was said already but I don't want that point to get lost. The added ulti gain from front baring soul harvest is much more of a relevant focal point for this topic.

Catalyst ulti regen grants ulti whenever you drink a potion. This is granted when in or out of combat and requires nothing more than just hitting the Q key for most. The Soul harvest ultimate requires that an enemy dies. Just like CP is front loaded, catalyst operates the same way. Soul Harvest is back loaded. Which means death must occur in order to generate. If deaths don't occur because a group has more time to counter or move out of the destro bomb or if a negate is placed properly the entire mechanic from soul harvest and sap essence is neutralized. As i have stated several times, my idea is not to gut the NB class or any of the unique abilities that make them stand out. I am simply looking for a way to decrease the ulti gen for the class that clearly has an advantage in Ultimate Regeneration.

Anazasi

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Unless you give Warden, sorc, templar and DK a reliable class based gapcloser and spammable class based 8m pbaoe NB's will still be best in slot for bombing in current meta, no matter how much you nerf their ulti gen.

I know and I honestly want them to be in that place. It's not about the class it's about the class ulti regen. There are enough counters in game to handle the class abilities it's the burst dps they bring with the ultimates and abilities. If we nerf the ulti it kills it for the entire player base. If we nerf the class abilities it kills the class for everyone. If we address the root of the issue ulti regen than the class and the abilities for everyone remains playable.

Please explain how catalyst is the root of the issue? I just don't 100% understand where you're coming from with this. The amount of times I've seen catalyst 'save' the group is negligible. And tbh if you use catalyst just for ult gen then you're totally screwing your bomb if you use alch (which all bomb blades should unless raid spec requires something different). Or just the fact that if you use a pot on cooldown then get bombed you will have no immovable and make it very easy to get stuck in the back. Using alch 90% of the time this passive goes to waste as you're using it before your bomb so the 20 ult you get just goes into putting you higher above the 250 mark and the losing it. I would be much more sad about the removal of this for pve as that is where a NB actually benefits from this and helps to put them in line with sure DPS since you use your ult on cooldown in pve and need to use your pot on cooldown as well.

Do I think NB could use a slight nerf to bring other classes in line with it? Absolutely but I haven't got the foggiest idea of what to do to it without totally gutting the class for every other playstyle. TBH feels to me like you're on some witch Hunt and while you're so close to finding the witch you picked her brother instead. As many other people mentioned, there are many 'witches' that make NB the best bomber and the base of it being OP is a large list of advantages NB has compared to sorc and DK and the ult gen is just a nice convenience.

Catalyst is not the root of the problem. THE PROBLEM IS ULTIMATE REGENERATION BALANCE. By removing catalyst bonus night blades would have a slight advantage that could be measured in seconds equal to other classes. This type of balance adjustment would not nerf the class beyond usefulness just extend the time it takes for nightblades to cast ultimate.

Catalyst isn't the source of NB ult gen. Their ult gen comes from KBs and NB has the easiest time getting those KBs with and 8m pbaoe, a solid gap closer, the ability to stack their damage the highest, a stun the goes through block and the ability to run DW on their main bar. Can't tell you how many times when I bomb that the limiting factor isn't the ultimate generation but waiting for the potion to come off cooldown to proc my alchemist again. When all you need to get is 8 KBs to get your ultimate back and usually if you get one you will get at least 2 or 3 others because of VD then there is no question that the real source of these ultimate generation issues is combat frenzy. Our damage DKs can do the same thing as our damage nbs of chaining destro Ults because of combat frenzy, DK just doesn't have that solid gap closer and self merciless buff.

As always sneaky you make extremely valid points and astute observations of PVP combat and play styles. However, let me argue this from a different perspective, one that @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom should address with @ZOS_Wrobel. ZOS has made it extremely clear that no class or ability shall generate ultimate when out of combat. Catalyst will grant 20 ultimate if the player is out of combat. This "fact" alone requires, based on ZOS's current position on how ultimate shall be generated, that passive be changed. Now I would suggest that everyone put their thinking caps on and start discussing how it should be fixed or what new bonus should be given to replace it.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Anazasi wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Unless you give Warden, sorc, templar and DK a reliable class based gapcloser and spammable class based 8m pbaoe NB's will still be best in slot for bombing in current meta, no matter how much you nerf their ulti gen.

I know and I honestly want them to be in that place. It's not about the class it's about the class ulti regen. There are enough counters in game to handle the class abilities it's the burst dps they bring with the ultimates and abilities. If we nerf the ulti it kills it for the entire player base. If we nerf the class abilities it kills the class for everyone. If we address the root of the issue ulti regen than the class and the abilities for everyone remains playable.

Please explain how catalyst is the root of the issue? I just don't 100% understand where you're coming from with this. The amount of times I've seen catalyst 'save' the group is negligible. And tbh if you use catalyst just for ult gen then you're totally screwing your bomb if you use alch (which all bomb blades should unless raid spec requires something different). Or just the fact that if you use a pot on cooldown then get bombed you will have no immovable and make it very easy to get stuck in the back. Using alch 90% of the time this passive goes to waste as you're using it before your bomb so the 20 ult you get just goes into putting you higher above the 250 mark and the losing it. I would be much more sad about the removal of this for pve as that is where a NB actually benefits from this and helps to put them in line with sure DPS since you use your ult on cooldown in pve and need to use your pot on cooldown as well.

Do I think NB could use a slight nerf to bring other classes in line with it? Absolutely but I haven't got the foggiest idea of what to do to it without totally gutting the class for every other playstyle. TBH feels to me like you're on some witch Hunt and while you're so close to finding the witch you picked her brother instead. As many other people mentioned, there are many 'witches' that make NB the best bomber and the base of it being OP is a large list of advantages NB has compared to sorc and DK and the ult gen is just a nice convenience.

Catalyst is not the root of the problem. THE PROBLEM IS ULTIMATE REGENERATION BALANCE. By removing catalyst bonus night blades would have a slight advantage that could be measured in seconds equal to other classes. This type of balance adjustment would not nerf the class beyond usefulness just extend the time it takes for nightblades to cast ultimate.

Catalyst isn't the source of NB ult gen. Their ult gen comes from KBs and NB has the easiest time getting those KBs with and 8m pbaoe, a solid gap closer, the ability to stack their damage the highest, a stun the goes through block and the ability to run DW on their main bar. Can't tell you how many times when I bomb that the limiting factor isn't the ultimate generation but waiting for the potion to come off cooldown to proc my alchemist again. When all you need to get is 8 KBs to get your ultimate back and usually if you get one you will get at least 2 or 3 others because of VD then there is no question that the real source of these ultimate generation issues is combat frenzy. Our damage DKs can do the same thing as our damage nbs of chaining destro Ults because of combat frenzy, DK just doesn't have that solid gap closer and self merciless buff.

As always sneaky you make extremely valid points and astute observations of PVP combat and play styles. However, let me argue this from a different perspective, one that @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom should address with @ZOS_Wrobel. ZOS has made it extremely clear that no class or ability shall generate ultimate when out of combat. Catalyst will grant 20 ultimate if the player is out of combat. This "fact" alone requires, based on ZOS's current position on how ultimate shall be generated, that passive be changed. Now I would suggest that everyone put their thinking caps on and start discussing how it should be fixed or what new bonus should be given to replace it.

It's a key point of the nb class that they are "sneaky assassin types" being out of combat shouldn't hinder this as they will often be out of combat yet be engaging an enemy.

You could say the same of generating ulti with mud balls out of combat. But imo it's say fun mechanic if you want to take the time to do it

Sanct16

This is thread is just pointless. If it's such a big problem that you can generate Ultimate out of Combat, just change Catalyst to "Gain 20 Ultimate if you drink a potion while in combat" - done.

Vilestride

Sanct16 wrote: »

This is thread is just pointless. If it's such a big problem that you can generate Ultimate out of Combat, just change Catalyst to "Gain 20 Ultimate if you drink a potion while in combat" - done.

Yep this is what I was about to reply. That being said in the context you have given us taran you still haven't recognized the point that catalyst isn't beneficial for raid or destro bombers because of how they use clever alchemist but anyway.

Further more. To start with I'm not even sure everyone would agree nightblade does Regen ultimate too fast. To be honest I don't think it is currently unbalanced at all.

Quantum_V

Make ulti regen inversely proportional to the amount of people in your group.

Vilestride

Quantum_V wrote: »

Make ulti regen inversely proportional to the amount of people in your group.

This would have the same fundamental issue that dynamic ult gen had. It makes a harder situation easier. Fighting outnumbered is difficult and the only aspect that should allow you to win in this scenario is skill gap.

This would also encumber the removal of aoe caps in return for example but ideologically no in game system should exist to aid or disadvantage you dependant on the number of opponents you are fighting if you want encourage competitive play.

I understand the frustration in feeling outnumbered constantly however that challenge is part of the fun. And further more the way to prevent small scale players getting 'zerged down ' all the time lies within changes to the objective game play rather than the combat itself.

Chori

Anazasi wrote: »

Since launch, ESO has spent an extremely large amount of time balancing Ultimate regeneration. We have seen several modifications to this important feature of the game; ranging from dynamic regeneration to specific periods when a player could regenerate. However, nothing has been done to balance the classes. In 2017 the current meta “destro balls” has become a plague on the PVP landscape. When we look at the efforts thus far in November of 2017 we see that ZOS has simply followed the same logic and continue to look at the ability “destro Ultimate” as the source of the issue. However no one seems to understand that the groups running the meta are only taking advantage of 1 particular class in order to achieve the successful meta. The Nightblade class, although a favorite of the ZOS upper management, has one distinct advantage over all other classes: Ultimate regeneration. What I am proposing is not a complete neutering of the class but rather a balanced process that makes the nightblade equal to all the other classes. When you look at the passive lines for the class you see they have one passive that needs to be removed: Catalyst at rank 2 allows a nightblade to gain 20 ultimate. Many would disagree with this but in a 3 minute fight thats 60 ultimate which if calculated along with the other passive Transfer activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 ultimate every 4 seconds bring the total class ultimate recover to 90 adding this recover to the Catalyst recovers 150 ultimate total in 3 minutes without even counting in kills from the ability soul harvest which grants 7 ultimate every time they kill a player. It is obvious that this class recovers ultimate faster than any other class in the game and this is where the balance focus should be. The counter argument is ever class has a method for recovering ultimate. Yes every class does and I do believe that Nightblades should have a slight advantage because of the nature of the class and its overall dynamic roll in ESO. However no class has a passive ability that allows them to recover 20 ultimate ever 47 seconds. If this passive ability were removed the effectiveness of the current “Destro Ball” meta would be broken. All the classes would be balanced as far as ultimate regeneration.

Breton 3% reduced magic cost
Light Armor 5 piece bonus 10% magic cost reduction

Destro Ultimate cost without other set bonus. 218

48 second recovery = 42 ultimate every 48 seconds just from class passives.

But we should also count the ultimate regeneration from light and heavy attacks. 3 per second with the light heavy combat buff which over 48 seconds is another 144 ultimate before the next potion is activated and the cycle begins again. This makes for a grand total of 186 out of 218 needed in 48 seconds. If all the players tag at least 2 players with AOE damage and the targets die they will gain up to another 34 ultimate for kills. Which allows them again to cast the destro ultimate once every minute. In the grand scheme of life perhaps the extra 20 ultimate from the Catalyst passive isn’t that huge of a deal, But the game is about balance and it is clearly a distinct advantage for the class especially in large group play. Running a group of 16 with 50% to 60% of the comp are nightblade destro spammers. The natural gravitation to this class and the current meta exists only because of the class ultimate regeneration advantage which means the mechanics should be addressed and balanced. Removing the ultimate bonus from Catalyst should be the first step taken by ZOS before attempting any other change to any ability. Please understand this is about balance not about nerfing. Would this make a difference perhaps only in seconds but overall the effect would be to allow 2 opposing groups of players the opportunity to recover ultimates in order to continue fighting.

Just get good already

ToRelax

Vilestride wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Make ulti regen inversely proportional to the amount of people in your group.

This would have the same fundamental issue that dynamic ult gen had. It makes a harder situation easier. Fighting outnumbered is difficult and the only aspect that should allow you to win in this scenario is skill gap.

This would also encumber the removal of aoe caps in return for example but ideologically no in game system should exist to aid or disadvantage you dependant on the number of opponents you are fighting if you want encourage competitive play.

I understand the frustration in feeling outnumbered constantly however that challenge is part of the fun. And further more the way to prevent small scale players getting 'zerged down ' all the time lies within changes to the objective game play rather than the combat itself.

What does it mean when a mechanic aids the smaller group? Does the existance of AoE do that? Do healing AoE caps aid the smaller group? I think both do, and I also think they should stay. There is nothing inherently wrong about it, because a smaller group is *always* at a disadvantage anyway if you don't consider differences in skill, stats and organization.

Making ult regen inversely proportional to the amount of people in your group however, would be a terrible idea for different reasons: It gives an incentive to play with as few players as possible in a group while still incentivizing running together. Additionally it hits new players the hardest.
Simply reducing the maximum group size would do the same without some of the drawbacks.

Ghostbane

Combat Frenzy is the biggest offender to all these woe's. I don't have Soul Harvest on front bar most of the time when I'm by myself, isn't essential because of CF.

As many pointed out, the Catalyst pot gets saved for the bomb. So during the the 230/120 build up, it doesn't really feature.

Transfer grants 2 ultimate, with a 4 second cooldown. Also pointed out, not really out of the ordinary from other classes.

I'd drop the entire system in a heartbeat for dynamic ulti generation though.

Anazasi

Ok Ulti gen is not the problem. So, I'll run 24 sorcs of every flavor in a group just to see if stacking the same class can be as dynamic and fun as stacking nightblades because their superior AOE damage. This should be interesting to say the least.

asneakybanana

Anazasi wrote: »

Ok Ulti gen is not the problem. So, I'll run 24 sorcs of every flavor in a group just to see if stacking the same class can be as dynamic and fun as stacking nightblades because their superior AOE damage. This should be interesting to say the least.

Sorc has no spammable aoe but the combo of endless fury and VD is nice. The issue with sorc is you lose aoe spammable so there's a decent dps drop, you lose a lot of DMG from magicka being lower as well as other passives, but you gain endless fury and streak which is really nice. You would be more likely to use meteors over destros with sorc tho for the busrt combo of.meteor then endless fury then vd on everything around then.