PVP is not easy

Nahtal

Like to play PVP but always as healer (not good with tank and DPS) trying to play with it, but suck at it. Main story now playing with Warden class (also as healer) still think this class can be improved. Seems also in dungeons with warden class healing feels like buggy (any experience that?)

They tell warden class is not good when want play PVP with it. Any thoughts on that?

Smasherx74

PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.

Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.

Billy2112

So smasher by your perspective we could put a total noob in gear and he will #win?

drkfrontiers

I too suck. Tremendously. To such great heights that I think I suck rather epic-ally, .. I'm rather good, at sucking. So I'm a ... good sucker
is what I'm trying to say.

I think that when I am in Cyrodiil my team tries to ride away from me!!

Jigger_allard

PvP sucks! I have never liked PvP and hate the fact that game developers cater to them that do.

Sixty5

Warden class is godly in PVP.

Wardens lack in PVE because they are a jack of all trades. They have interesting buffs and passives, but mostly they end up being redundant in a group. However in PVP you don't have a healer giving you combat prayer or someone spamming heals at you. This means that the Wardens kit starts to really shine, given how many different buffs and skills they have access to.

Also undodgeable Bird spam, major heroism and non-ult reliant burst on a 3 second cooldown.


As far as skill in PVP goes, there is definitely a skill floor, where if you don't have a minimum level of knowledge you will just get dumpstered over and over again, regardless of your build. On the other hand after that things become a bit less defined. I can tell if someone is better or worse than me a lot of the time, but there are plenty of cases where one build will counter another to the point of the less skilled player easily winning.

mb10

L2p issues. PVP is the best thing about the game

drkfrontiers

mb10 wrote: »

L2p issues. PVP is the best thing about the game

I agree.

When I finally L2P I'm going to be a GOD! lol

Smasherx74

Billy2112 wrote: »

So smasher by your perspective we could put a total noob in gear and he will #win?

This is facts.

I've put noobs in basic PVP gear and they destroy those who aren't in gear.


A pro PVPer in PVE gear/bars will lose to a noob in PVP gear. That's how this game works, and every MMO I played works. If you have better gear, you win. Sure there is some room for error or potential, but in general having higher tier gear automatically means you win. Especially if you consider you have not only higher tier gear, but skills PVP locked.


I honestly believe Archeage has PVP equality than this game... that may sound 100% false to any archeage player but consider this. ESO is just as bad, maybe you don't have to play since day 1 to be the highest gear score, but if you specifically level up PVP skills and grind for PVP sets then you can easily beat anyone who doesn't have good gear or PVP skills unlocked.

Smasherx74

mb10 wrote: »

L2p issues. PVP is the best thing about the game

It's not L2P if I can make leaderboards now is it?

I'm speaking objectively here. PVP in this game like most MMOs is 75-95% gear/ability based and only 25-5% skill based.



Time and time again I've played my very optimalist against players with BiS gear and lost despite them performing / playing the exact same as noobs with same build but w/o BiS gear.

MajBludd

Anybody can make leaderboards. Doesn't mean they are good at pvp, just that they are good at join a zerg, firing a ballista, repairing walls, or flipping resources.

Biro123

PVP is hard, and has a very steep learning curve.

This is true of all games once the player-base has matured so you're going up against people with 2-3 years practice under their belts. It is especially true of games like this which have active defences.

olsborg

PvP in this game is 90% itemization sadly.

Qbiken

Smasherx74 wrote: »

PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.

Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.

Theorycrafting/picking the right gear for a decent build that synergies well with mechanics (aka the right gear for the right job) is a part of this thing you call skill......And who da hell plays the game to show of their "skills" (which is a subjective thing btw) anyway???

TheValar85

They shoudl put back the former emperor passives.

Kahina

Smasherx74 wrote: »

PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.

Funny. So called skill based means nothing but latency based.

Sneaky-Snurr

MajBludd wrote: »

Anybody can make leaderboards. Doesn't mean they are good at pvp, just that they are good at join a zerg, firing a ballista, repairing walls, or flipping resources.

@MajBludd
Er, not really.
To some, yes it's possible to get to the leaderboards but that is not always the case. Rather, it's quite an uncommon occurrence.

Try playing in a less than populated campaign (in my case, no-CP Sotha Sil PC NA) and play in the alliance that is at the bottom place in the campaign. Usually the bottom placed alliance will constantly have minimal number of players compared to the top one which can muster 15-25 players at a time.

You just might be remotely right if you are only referring to the player's own alliance leaderboard, though that only happens to 4-7 players as a whole, if they are lucky.
But being in the top 100 in the overall campaign (players from all alliance compared and ranked) is a whole different case. Because even if you zerg to your heart's content, you are not guarenteed a place in the overall top 100.

Try maintaining your place in the top 100 by just soloing/doing 2-man group and not zerging. Only then you'll truly know how much of an obstacle it is to maintain such position. I've seen a lot of people in the top 100 done it and they are very skilled players (though their gears do help them 60% of the time) and an overwhelming majority of them don't zerg.
What's interesting is that the players who are in the alliance that has the least amount of players can make it to the top 100 and that, to me, is an incredible feat to execute.

olsborg wrote: »

PvP in this game is 90% itemization sadly.

@olsborg
That is a bit of a stretch to say. 90%?
It is true that gears matter a lot in PvP but personally, it's more like 60% gear and 40% skill. I'm not running any BiS/fotm PvP gears and I do well in PvP.
Situational awareness, timely execution of defensive/offensive manoeuvres and positioning matters a lot in PvP. That is skill.

Krayzie

Billy2112 wrote: »

So smasher by your perspective we could put a total noob in gear and he will #win?

That's completely wrong, not what he was saying at all.

Narvuntien

What is even winning in PVP?
Killing other players?
Getting AP?

Honestly I enjoy PVP on a higher level than the actual fighting. Zergs crashing into each other, 2 shot ganks and lag of both the network and FPS varities makes actual combat a mess.

It isn't about living or dying or killing, its about pulling the enemy around to gave advantages to your team on the otherside of the map. I mean you have to hope your efforts work, you can't really know unless you start seeing keeps lighting up.

Zergs have this kind of predicability to them due to the nature of large numbers of people you can exploit, you can waste there time you can pull them away from where they should be.

You and your three buddies take a bunch of resources and they send 12 people to stop you... you win.. even if they kill you all.. They used 12 on your 4.

Strider__Roshin

@Smasherx74 I'm not disagreeing that gear is way too influential in PvP, but it's not to the degree you're suggesting. I've killed a lot of 660s fully spec'd while being naked before. Were these players trash? Oh most definitely, the skill difference was astronomical. But that's the point I'm trying to drive home. There is a lot of skill involved with PvP, but gear is extremely influential on your success.

With that said, there are abilities that take away skill from PvP, and those are ones that remove counterplay. In those specific instances the success of that skill is 100% gear dependant.

Turelus

Smasherx74 wrote: »

PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.

Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.

If this was true then every BiS newbie would be storming Cyrodiil as a 1vX hero.

Gear is one thing, knowing how to use that gear and your skills to their best whilst using LoS to control fights is a lot of what PvP is about, all of which is player skill.

WillhelmBlack

TheValar85 wrote: »

They shoudl put back the former emperor passives.

Why?

Skoomah

Good builds are a major factor to winning in pvp. That includes a lot of time theorycrafting to get the right mix of class, skills mix, skill rotation, gear, traits, glyphs, mundus stone, food/drink, team composition. And all these different choices are optimal based on different situations. There are hundreds of way to build a character. The combinations are nearly endless. It takes a lot of skill and knowledge of the game to make a strong build and many times you're rewarded by it on the battlefield. You're also rewarded by lifting builds off YouTube streamers for all the lazy people out there.

Biro123

olsborg wrote: »

PvP in this game is 90% itemization sadly.

That's only true one you're at the top end of your learning curve - which most PVPers now are given the game's age.

But before that point, skills (or lack of them as this relates to new PVPers still learning ) play a much, much bigger role than gear.

Kahina

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Gear is one thing, knowing how to use that gear and your skills to their best whilst using LoS to control fights is a lot of what PvP is about, all of which is player skill.

It's about having the better ping. It's rarely about anything more. Be a real community ambassador and campaign for latency equalization to be built into the server and client. Then let's talk.

olsborg

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

MajBludd wrote: »

Anybody can make leaderboards. Doesn't mean they are good at pvp, just that they are good at join a zerg, firing a ballista, repairing walls, or flipping resources.

@MajBludd
Er, not really.
To some, yes it's possible to get to the leaderboards but that is not always the case. Rather, it's quite an uncommon occurrence.

Try playing in a less than populated campaign (in my case, no-CP Sotha Sil PC NA) and play in the alliance that is at the bottom place in the campaign. Usually the bottom placed alliance will constantly have minimal number of players compared to the top one which can muster 15-25 players at a time.

You just might be remotely right if you are only referring to the player's own alliance leaderboard, though that only happens to 4-7 players as a whole, if they are lucky.
But being in the top 100 in the overall campaign (players from all alliance compared and ranked) is a whole different case. Because even if you zerg to your heart's content, you are not guarenteed a place in the overall top 100.

Try maintaining your place in the top 100 by just soloing/doing 2-man group and not zerging. Only then you'll truly know how much of an obstacle it is to maintain such position. I've seen a lot of people in the top 100 done it and they are very skilled players (though their gears do help them 60% of the time) and an overwhelming majority of them don't zerg.
What's interesting is that the players who are in the alliance that has the least amount of players can make it to the top 100 and that, to me, is an incredible feat to execute.

olsborg wrote: »

PvP in this game is 90% itemization sadly.

@olsborg
That is a bit of a stretch to say. 90%?
It is true that gears matter a lot in PvP but personally, it's more like 60% gear and 40% skill. I'm not running any BiS/fotm PvP gears and I do well in PvP.
Situational awareness, timely execution of defensive/offensive manoeuvres and positioning matters a lot in PvP. That is skill.

Well, it might be a stretch now, but quite recently it was pretty much true (proccmeta). However, itemization is far more important then skill even today, more then 60/40 id say.

Turelus

Kahina wrote: »

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Gear is one thing, knowing how to use that gear and your skills to their best whilst using LoS to control fights is a lot of what PvP is about, all of which is player skill.

It's about having the better ping. It's rarely about anything more. Be a real community ambassador and campaign for latency equalization to be built into the server and client. Then let's talk.

So what you're saying is people in Germany and Texas always win regardless of anything else?

Kahina

Have you ever played a game with latency equalization? Not a lot of games have it. It's rather rare. It changes much, as one would expect it to. If it was all skill (or gear), it would change nothing.

Now excuse my while I go back to my 350ms ping ESO gaming.

Turelus

Kahina wrote: »

Have you ever played a game with latency equalization? Not a lot of games have it. It's rather rare. It changes much, as one would expect it to. If it was all skill (or gear), it would change nothing.

Now excuse my while I go back to my 350ms ping ESO gaming.

I have no doubt it helps people, but your claim was that gear and skill don't have as much to do with victories as ping.

Kahina wrote: »

It's about having the better ping. It's rarely about anything more.

Thogard

Lot of bad players in this thread giving excuses for why they lose. Funny how so many of these excuses could be fixed pretty easily... guess they just prefer to lose?

ESO is the most skill based MMO PvP I’ve played in a long time, largely because of how fast paced the combat is compared to other MMOs. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of memorization of counters.

Your build is important for your playstyle but you shouldn’t have to spend more than a day getting it ready. Thank god this isn’t like other MMOs where you have to grind for a month just to compete.

Kay1

Smasherx74 wrote: »

PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.

Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.

That's why I 1vX without my chest equipped sometimes because it's all gear based

I need to stream this ***

I'm gonna start streaming 1vX with 150cp blue gear in November I won't forget you I will send you the link