how much more must the core game suffer because of CP?

CloneTrooper699

I say leave CP but to add more uniqueness to builds and general gameplay ad a morph to every passive in the game. This will make builds way more complex and there can be some morphs that benefit pvp and others pve. I also would like morphs to all the non combat passives as well (crafting, Legerdemain and so on) just to make the game a little more interesting.

Joy_Division

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'd argued that it's a catch 22. A conundrum that neither ZoS nor the players can be happy about it. The cp system was something that was needed post the veteran levels era. Veteran lvl were just too time consuming and none of the right gratification given. Yeah there were players that had 10 vet lvl 16 chars before the change but honestly, that is an outlier. Most players just had one char that they focused on.

Cp was then front loaded to help out with the loss of veteran levels. But ultimately, both systems were put in place to counter the fast and voracious content eaters that are the players. And no amount of content generated will be enough for players, regardless of replayability or rate of release.

The ideal behind cp is... Ideal. It's suppose to promote build diversity by allowing better control over your stats, over your build stat distribution.

Let's then take this system out. What if it wasn't replaced and its basically just lvl 1-50. How do you then address the vertical progression? You can talk all you want that other rpgs or action games don't need this but think in terms of an mmo. How do you keep the sense of progression in a game that will be untouched largely for its content?

Do you then add new classes? Add more skill lines? That's horizontal, not vertical. How do you keep vertical progression?

It isn't rocket science.

Yes, some sort of end-game progress is desirable. But if we are at "end-game," then the progression thereafter needs to be limited and modest. Otherwise, we aren't at end-game!

ZoS put way way way way too much power in the CP system. There is no build diversity. There is download Asarye's formula add-ons and *poof*, now we know precisely how many points to put in the good stars. It's a purely percentage based-system that does not change our characters in a meaningful way, merely make them more powerful and efficient at doing things (and too much efficiency/power at that).

What ought to be done after level 50 is provide a progression system that offers players avenues to subtly augment, specialize, and customize the power already in their classes, not grab huge chunks of raw power. A DK might be able to turn whip into a stamina morph. A light armor user might be able to gain the sneak/speed passives from medium armor. A Sorcerer might become an Ice wizard. Stuff like that.

Weps

I fully agree with whoever said that CP must be redesigned from scratch to become something more custom tailored to your build and class instead of being a simple flat percentage amount that can make passives too strong or completely useless and, on the other hand, you can pick the CP passives you really want and really need and they suit your class in a better and more meaningful way.

This will make custom builds skyrocket and force even the normal and average player to start to understand a little bit how to play the game and how their build works instead of just copy-pasting builds and setups from YouTube.

Kilandros

Joy_Division wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'd argued that it's a catch 22. A conundrum that neither ZoS nor the players can be happy about it. The cp system was something that was needed post the veteran levels era. Veteran lvl were just too time consuming and none of the right gratification given. Yeah there were players that had 10 vet lvl 16 chars before the change but honestly, that is an outlier. Most players just had one char that they focused on.

Cp was then front loaded to help out with the loss of veteran levels. But ultimately, both systems were put in place to counter the fast and voracious content eaters that are the players. And no amount of content generated will be enough for players, regardless of replayability or rate of release.

The ideal behind cp is... Ideal. It's suppose to promote build diversity by allowing better control over your stats, over your build stat distribution.

Let's then take this system out. What if it wasn't replaced and its basically just lvl 1-50. How do you then address the vertical progression? You can talk all you want that other rpgs or action games don't need this but think in terms of an mmo. How do you keep the sense of progression in a game that will be untouched largely for its content?

Do you then add new classes? Add more skill lines? That's horizontal, not vertical. How do you keep vertical progression?

It isn't rocket science.

Yes, some sort of end-game progress is desirable. But if we are at "end-game," then the progression thereafter needs to be limited and modest. Otherwise, we aren't at end-game!

ZoS put way way way way too much power in the CP system. There is no build diversity. There is download Asarye's formula add-ons and *poof*, now we know precisely how many points to put in the good stars. It's a purely percentage based-system that does not change our characters in a meaningful way, merely make them more powerful and efficient at doing things (and too much efficiency/power at that).

What ought to be done after level 50 is provide a progression system that offers players avenues to subtly augment, specialize, and customize the power already in their classes, not grab huge chunks of raw power. A DK might be able to turn whip into a stamina morph. A light armor user might be able to gain the sneak/speed passives from medium armor. A Sorcerer might become an Ice wizard. Stuff like that.

CP system should be a constellation of QoL passives, more like the Skyrim system. There shouldn't be any attribute increases or any other percentages increases as there are right now. It should only be a collection of passives.

Minno

Kilandros wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'd argued that it's a catch 22. A conundrum that neither ZoS nor the players can be happy about it. The cp system was something that was needed post the veteran levels era. Veteran lvl were just too time consuming and none of the right gratification given. Yeah there were players that had 10 vet lvl 16 chars before the change but honestly, that is an outlier. Most players just had one char that they focused on.

Cp was then front loaded to help out with the loss of veteran levels. But ultimately, both systems were put in place to counter the fast and voracious content eaters that are the players. And no amount of content generated will be enough for players, regardless of replayability or rate of release.

The ideal behind cp is... Ideal. It's suppose to promote build diversity by allowing better control over your stats, over your build stat distribution.

Let's then take this system out. What if it wasn't replaced and its basically just lvl 1-50. How do you then address the vertical progression? You can talk all you want that other rpgs or action games don't need this but think in terms of an mmo. How do you keep the sense of progression in a game that will be untouched largely for its content?

Do you then add new classes? Add more skill lines? That's horizontal, not vertical. How do you keep vertical progression?

It isn't rocket science.

Yes, some sort of end-game progress is desirable. But if we are at "end-game," then the progression thereafter needs to be limited and modest. Otherwise, we aren't at end-game!

ZoS put way way way way too much power in the CP system. There is no build diversity. There is download Asarye's formula add-ons and *poof*, now we know precisely how many points to put in the good stars. It's a purely percentage based-system that does not change our characters in a meaningful way, merely make them more powerful and efficient at doing things (and too much efficiency/power at that).

What ought to be done after level 50 is provide a progression system that offers players avenues to subtly augment, specialize, and customize the power already in their classes, not grab huge chunks of raw power. A DK might be able to turn whip into a stamina morph. A light armor user might be able to gain the sneak/speed passives from medium armor. A Sorcerer might become an Ice wizard. Stuff like that.

CP system should be a constellation of QoL passives, more like the Skyrim system. There shouldn't be any attribute increases or any other percentages increases as there are right now. It should only be a collection of passives.

I agree with a collection of passives.

Kilandros

Minno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'd argued that it's a catch 22. A conundrum that neither ZoS nor the players can be happy about it. The cp system was something that was needed post the veteran levels era. Veteran lvl were just too time consuming and none of the right gratification given. Yeah there were players that had 10 vet lvl 16 chars before the change but honestly, that is an outlier. Most players just had one char that they focused on.

Cp was then front loaded to help out with the loss of veteran levels. But ultimately, both systems were put in place to counter the fast and voracious content eaters that are the players. And no amount of content generated will be enough for players, regardless of replayability or rate of release.

The ideal behind cp is... Ideal. It's suppose to promote build diversity by allowing better control over your stats, over your build stat distribution.

Let's then take this system out. What if it wasn't replaced and its basically just lvl 1-50. How do you then address the vertical progression? You can talk all you want that other rpgs or action games don't need this but think in terms of an mmo. How do you keep the sense of progression in a game that will be untouched largely for its content?

Do you then add new classes? Add more skill lines? That's horizontal, not vertical. How do you keep vertical progression?

It isn't rocket science.

Yes, some sort of end-game progress is desirable. But if we are at "end-game," then the progression thereafter needs to be limited and modest. Otherwise, we aren't at end-game!

ZoS put way way way way too much power in the CP system. There is no build diversity. There is download Asarye's formula add-ons and *poof*, now we know precisely how many points to put in the good stars. It's a purely percentage based-system that does not change our characters in a meaningful way, merely make them more powerful and efficient at doing things (and too much efficiency/power at that).

What ought to be done after level 50 is provide a progression system that offers players avenues to subtly augment, specialize, and customize the power already in their classes, not grab huge chunks of raw power. A DK might be able to turn whip into a stamina morph. A light armor user might be able to gain the sneak/speed passives from medium armor. A Sorcerer might become an Ice wizard. Stuff like that.

CP system should be a constellation of QoL passives, more like the Skyrim system. There shouldn't be any attribute increases or any other percentages increases as there are right now. It should only be a collection of passives.

I agree with a collection of passives.

That's the way it should have been implemented IMO. It creates progression, but doesn't promote the absurd power creep this current system allows.

Also make each constellation branch so it isn't just mindlessly plugging points into a tree for all the passives.

Minno

Kilandros wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'd argued that it's a catch 22. A conundrum that neither ZoS nor the players can be happy about it. The cp system was something that was needed post the veteran levels era. Veteran lvl were just too time consuming and none of the right gratification given. Yeah there were players that had 10 vet lvl 16 chars before the change but honestly, that is an outlier. Most players just had one char that they focused on.

Cp was then front loaded to help out with the loss of veteran levels. But ultimately, both systems were put in place to counter the fast and voracious content eaters that are the players. And no amount of content generated will be enough for players, regardless of replayability or rate of release.

The ideal behind cp is... Ideal. It's suppose to promote build diversity by allowing better control over your stats, over your build stat distribution.

Let's then take this system out. What if it wasn't replaced and its basically just lvl 1-50. How do you then address the vertical progression? You can talk all you want that other rpgs or action games don't need this but think in terms of an mmo. How do you keep the sense of progression in a game that will be untouched largely for its content?

Do you then add new classes? Add more skill lines? That's horizontal, not vertical. How do you keep vertical progression?

It isn't rocket science.

Yes, some sort of end-game progress is desirable. But if we are at "end-game," then the progression thereafter needs to be limited and modest. Otherwise, we aren't at end-game!

ZoS put way way way way too much power in the CP system. There is no build diversity. There is download Asarye's formula add-ons and *poof*, now we know precisely how many points to put in the good stars. It's a purely percentage based-system that does not change our characters in a meaningful way, merely make them more powerful and efficient at doing things (and too much efficiency/power at that).

What ought to be done after level 50 is provide a progression system that offers players avenues to subtly augment, specialize, and customize the power already in their classes, not grab huge chunks of raw power. A DK might be able to turn whip into a stamina morph. A light armor user might be able to gain the sneak/speed passives from medium armor. A Sorcerer might become an Ice wizard. Stuff like that.

CP system should be a constellation of QoL passives, more like the Skyrim system. There shouldn't be any attribute increases or any other percentages increases as there are right now. It should only be a collection of passives.

I agree with a collection of passives.

That's the way it should have been implemented IMO. It creates progression, but doesn't promote the absurd power creep this current system allows.

Also make each constellation branch so it isn't just mindlessly plugging points into a tree for all the passives.

Well we kinda already do that (picking enough for spell crit, unchained passive, etc).

I can see the community adjusting quickly to a passive only CP system. And then the game becomes gear/skills.

Kilandros

Minno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'd argued that it's a catch 22. A conundrum that neither ZoS nor the players can be happy about it. The cp system was something that was needed post the veteran levels era. Veteran lvl were just too time consuming and none of the right gratification given. Yeah there were players that had 10 vet lvl 16 chars before the change but honestly, that is an outlier. Most players just had one char that they focused on.

Cp was then front loaded to help out with the loss of veteran levels. But ultimately, both systems were put in place to counter the fast and voracious content eaters that are the players. And no amount of content generated will be enough for players, regardless of replayability or rate of release.

The ideal behind cp is... Ideal. It's suppose to promote build diversity by allowing better control over your stats, over your build stat distribution.

Let's then take this system out. What if it wasn't replaced and its basically just lvl 1-50. How do you then address the vertical progression? You can talk all you want that other rpgs or action games don't need this but think in terms of an mmo. How do you keep the sense of progression in a game that will be untouched largely for its content?

Do you then add new classes? Add more skill lines? That's horizontal, not vertical. How do you keep vertical progression?

It isn't rocket science.

Yes, some sort of end-game progress is desirable. But if we are at "end-game," then the progression thereafter needs to be limited and modest. Otherwise, we aren't at end-game!

ZoS put way way way way too much power in the CP system. There is no build diversity. There is download Asarye's formula add-ons and *poof*, now we know precisely how many points to put in the good stars. It's a purely percentage based-system that does not change our characters in a meaningful way, merely make them more powerful and efficient at doing things (and too much efficiency/power at that).

What ought to be done after level 50 is provide a progression system that offers players avenues to subtly augment, specialize, and customize the power already in their classes, not grab huge chunks of raw power. A DK might be able to turn whip into a stamina morph. A light armor user might be able to gain the sneak/speed passives from medium armor. A Sorcerer might become an Ice wizard. Stuff like that.

CP system should be a constellation of QoL passives, more like the Skyrim system. There shouldn't be any attribute increases or any other percentages increases as there are right now. It should only be a collection of passives.

I agree with a collection of passives.

That's the way it should have been implemented IMO. It creates progression, but doesn't promote the absurd power creep this current system allows.

Also make each constellation branch so it isn't just mindlessly plugging points into a tree for all the passives.

Well we kinda already do that (picking enough for spell crit, unchained passive, etc).

I can see the community adjusting quickly to a passive only CP system. And then the game becomes gear/skills.

What I mean is compare it to Skyrim where within each constellation you have to kind of dedicate to a path within each tree. Right now you just add points within each tree. My point is that a passive-only system doesn't have to be less interesting--it could be really interesting if they added a bunch of neat passives and then made it so you had to think about how to spend points to acquire those passives, ala skyrim

kojou

Joy_Division wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'd argued that it's a catch 22. A conundrum that neither ZoS nor the players can be happy about it. The cp system was something that was needed post the veteran levels era. Veteran lvl were just too time consuming and none of the right gratification given. Yeah there were players that had 10 vet lvl 16 chars before the change but honestly, that is an outlier. Most players just had one char that they focused on.

Cp was then front loaded to help out with the loss of veteran levels. But ultimately, both systems were put in place to counter the fast and voracious content eaters that are the players. And no amount of content generated will be enough for players, regardless of replayability or rate of release.

The ideal behind cp is... Ideal. It's suppose to promote build diversity by allowing better control over your stats, over your build stat distribution.

Let's then take this system out. What if it wasn't replaced and its basically just lvl 1-50. How do you then address the vertical progression? You can talk all you want that other rpgs or action games don't need this but think in terms of an mmo. How do you keep the sense of progression in a game that will be untouched largely for its content?

Do you then add new classes? Add more skill lines? That's horizontal, not vertical. How do you keep vertical progression?

It isn't rocket science.

Yes, some sort of end-game progress is desirable. But if we are at "end-game," then the progression thereafter needs to be limited and modest. Otherwise, we aren't at end-game!

ZoS put way way way way too much power in the CP system. There is no build diversity. There is download Asarye's formula add-ons and *poof*, now we know precisely how many points to put in the good stars. It's a purely percentage based-system that does not change our characters in a meaningful way, merely make them more powerful and efficient at doing things (and too much efficiency/power at that).

What ought to be done after level 50 is provide a progression system that offers players avenues to subtly augment, specialize, and customize the power already in their classes, not grab huge chunks of raw power. A DK might be able to turn whip into a stamina morph. A light armor user might be able to gain the sneak/speed passives from medium armor. A Sorcerer might become an Ice wizard. Stuff like that.

I like this idea! Use CP to augment the class instead of adding generic stats...

Apply X CP to a skill to change the morph from Magicka to Stamina or if we could spend X CP to change the elemental damage of skills... e.g. make funnel health do Flame, Frost, or Shock damage.

We could also apply X CP to boost a passive up to X%, so on my DK I could make Battle Roar actually give more resources instead of boosting regen a meaningless amount.

We will never get this because it would be too much work that won't make them any more money, but I think that would be a much more fun CP system than what we have.

Minno

Kilandros wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'd argued that it's a catch 22. A conundrum that neither ZoS nor the players can be happy about it. The cp system was something that was needed post the veteran levels era. Veteran lvl were just too time consuming and none of the right gratification given. Yeah there were players that had 10 vet lvl 16 chars before the change but honestly, that is an outlier. Most players just had one char that they focused on.

Cp was then front loaded to help out with the loss of veteran levels. But ultimately, both systems were put in place to counter the fast and voracious content eaters that are the players. And no amount of content generated will be enough for players, regardless of replayability or rate of release.

The ideal behind cp is... Ideal. It's suppose to promote build diversity by allowing better control over your stats, over your build stat distribution.

Let's then take this system out. What if it wasn't replaced and its basically just lvl 1-50. How do you then address the vertical progression? You can talk all you want that other rpgs or action games don't need this but think in terms of an mmo. How do you keep the sense of progression in a game that will be untouched largely for its content?

Do you then add new classes? Add more skill lines? That's horizontal, not vertical. How do you keep vertical progression?

It isn't rocket science.

Yes, some sort of end-game progress is desirable. But if we are at "end-game," then the progression thereafter needs to be limited and modest. Otherwise, we aren't at end-game!

ZoS put way way way way too much power in the CP system. There is no build diversity. There is download Asarye's formula add-ons and *poof*, now we know precisely how many points to put in the good stars. It's a purely percentage based-system that does not change our characters in a meaningful way, merely make them more powerful and efficient at doing things (and too much efficiency/power at that).

What ought to be done after level 50 is provide a progression system that offers players avenues to subtly augment, specialize, and customize the power already in their classes, not grab huge chunks of raw power. A DK might be able to turn whip into a stamina morph. A light armor user might be able to gain the sneak/speed passives from medium armor. A Sorcerer might become an Ice wizard. Stuff like that.

CP system should be a constellation of QoL passives, more like the Skyrim system. There shouldn't be any attribute increases or any other percentages increases as there are right now. It should only be a collection of passives.

I agree with a collection of passives.

That's the way it should have been implemented IMO. It creates progression, but doesn't promote the absurd power creep this current system allows.

Also make each constellation branch so it isn't just mindlessly plugging points into a tree for all the passives.

Well we kinda already do that (picking enough for spell crit, unchained passive, etc).

I can see the community adjusting quickly to a passive only CP system. And then the game becomes gear/skills.

What I mean is compare it to Skyrim where within each constellation you have to kind of dedicate to a path within each tree. Right now you just add points within each tree. My point is that a passive-only system doesn't have to be less interesting--it could be really interesting if they added a bunch of neat passives and then made it so you had to think about how to spend points to acquire those passives, ala skyrim

Ah ok. Yes I agree.

Path of exile had this kind of system too.

SirMewser

CP doesn't add much functionality to the game whatsoever.
As already stated, they are just numbers to stats, they could have just been passives you unlock for reaching vet 1-16 on a skill page but instead it was glorified in this Skyrim style like constellation but with birthsigns...

It's not interesting or dynamic at all, it might look cool to someone who is new but when they realize what it actually does, it is just a simple system that makes the game a little boring (easier).

Lucky28

I think what ZOS needs to do is is admit morrowind was a mistake and revert CP to what it used to be in one tamriel update.

since the morrowind update ESO is not fun pvp is not fun, pve is not fun. i mean CP wasn't perfect by any means, but the gameplay was so much better then Morrowind imo.

WrathOfInnos

Isn't the point of CP increases to allow a little more progression. This is basically synonymous with power creep, just has a different connotation. I'm in favor of the current CP system, as it essentially results in everyone getting a damage boost of about 1% (blue CP) and a defense boost of about 2% (red CP) every 3-6 months. I think they need to make green more effective for PVE, ideally by bringing back cost reduction (even if lower magnitude than before), because we currently have nothing useful to spend it on outside of regen and heavy attack restore. The CP system allows players that cannot currently complete content to keep trying and low they will eventually be able to get through it.

The problems with the current system are:

1. There are more global and class nerfs every patch than the small increases from CP, so most players experience negative progression. Nobody enjoys being able to complete less content than they could previously. The content that is several years old should be easier to complete now than it was at launch, not through mechanical nerfs, but through player gains. This makes it more accessible to newer and less-skilled players. The highest caliber players always have the newest content and hard mode options for challenges, as well as competing for leaderboard scores.

2. There is no significant gear progression. Most of the META gear sets have been around for over a year, very few builds utilize anything from Morrowind or HotR (with the exception of architect and war machine for select classes with low cost ultimate). It's looking like this will continue with CWC, since most of the Asylum weapons are weak. Without gear progression, all improvements have to come from CP (and player skill obviously).

Tannus15

pieratsos wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I thought people quit when Morrowind launched because of the sustain nerfs and the "heavy attack meta"
I don't remember anyone saying they were quitting due to CP front-loading.

They quit because their rotation / build got nerfed and they had to add some heavy attacks when 16% cost reduction and 10% regen were removed from the CP system (that untouchable system that can never be nerfed).

Now I'm told it's because they buffed the CP system?

I remember when Vet Ranks were removed, and literally everyone was relieved to see the back of that system. I don't recall anyone jumping up to defend grinding alts through literally all the content and still not reach cap.

Didn't morrowind also push back some of the benefits of CP cap to CP 300?
Didn't the front loading of CP also make hybrid builds slightly more viable than they were before because spreading CP was more beneficial?

Sorry, I must be getting confused about the history of CP now...

yes, we're getting a bunch of nerfs this patch and most of the buffs are going to master / maelstrom weapons which a lot of people don't have.
We're also getting a bunch of nerfs to heavy armour DPS builds.
This has nothing to do with the CP system.
This has nothing to do with CP power creep.

It's mostly to attempt to address issues in PVP.
If you want to keep classes "special" then ask to remove PVP because attempting to balance them for PVP is what is gutting their uniqueness.
That's what ripping out their "soul".
No one in PVE was complaining that the 1h shield ult was too cheap.
No one in PVE had issues with the Warden healing Ult.
Power creep is easy to manage in PVE. Just buff the mobs and voila, job done.
PVP is the problem, but none of you want to admit that so you're blaming it all on some passive buffs in the CP system.

And for the record, I don't want PVP removed, but stop trying to pin the blame on CP. PVP is a lot of fun and it's what keeps a lot of people playing. But stop kidding yourselves All the nerfs are for PVP.

You should really stop talking about things you have no idea about. Its absolutely because of CP and you would actually know it if u were doing any kind of PVP.

The nerfs to sustain happened primarily because of CP. Without the CP the class sustain mechanics wouldnt be nerfed to the ground. Then the front loading happened along with nerfs to some stars to help players be competitive. Thats a good idea but it kinda backfired because there are too many stars to invest ur points. You are not forced to stack them anywhere. So in the end, what that did is give magicka builds 19% roll dodge cost reduction and 19% cc break reduction without sacrificing anything. What it also did is give light armor builds block cost reduction. What it also did is skyrocket the dmg with the introduction of master at arms while also skyrocket the survivability with iron clad. What it basically did is champion system builds. Everyone runs a different version of the same [snip]. And no it certainly did not make hybrids viable in any shape or form.

There is nothing fun about CP. There is absolutely nothing you actively do. Its just numbers optimizing ur build. You are not even making choices on where to put ur points. Especially in PVE. You have to put them on specific stars or you are just gimping urself.

And that silly argument about no one complaining in PVE is getting old. Yes no one complains in PVE. Thats because you are fighting mobs. They cant complain about you abusing the ever living [snip] out of them.

@pieratsos
Read my other post https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4575451/#Comment_4575451 and you'll see that I not only agree with most of what you're saying, I suggest some possible solutions.

The main crux of the post you just quoted is that the nerfs to classes are NOT because of CP, but because of PVP. For example, wrath removal and armour skills requiring 5pc and frags CC removal and every other skill nerf is for PVP balance, not because CP as the OP has stated.

because of CP, power has shifted from classes and core skills into the CP system, and as it gets stronger and more broken (as it does update after update) ZOS as to nerf something in response, and that something has always been and continues to be, classes, races, weapons and armor lines, sets, etc. everything except the precious CP system it loves so much.

This statement is not true. This is because of PVP.

The sustain nerfs ARE because of CP, and the biggest nerf for sustain was in the CP system! Cost reduction was removed and regen nerfed hard, but nothing of value was added to the green CP tree so there is no trade off at all and everyone might as well get breakfree, dodgeroll and block reduction.
Everyone might as well get ironskin and thick skinned. Why the hell not? There is no trade off.

Seriously, read my other post. the problem with CP is where the skills are in the trees and where our "choices" are. there are no choices or trade offs because you're not choosing between damage reduction and damage increase, or damage vs sustain. It's choose stam or magi and get all the damage and all the damage reduction and all the regen and all the stam cost reduction.

the only thing you CAN'T do is both magi and stam damage. That's literally the only restriction.

[Edited for quote]

pieratsos

Tannus15 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I thought people quit when Morrowind launched because of the sustain nerfs and the "heavy attack meta"
I don't remember anyone saying they were quitting due to CP front-loading.

They quit because their rotation / build got nerfed and they had to add some heavy attacks when 16% cost reduction and 10% regen were removed from the CP system (that untouchable system that can never be nerfed).

Now I'm told it's because they buffed the CP system?

I remember when Vet Ranks were removed, and literally everyone was relieved to see the back of that system. I don't recall anyone jumping up to defend grinding alts through literally all the content and still not reach cap.

Didn't morrowind also push back some of the benefits of CP cap to CP 300?
Didn't the front loading of CP also make hybrid builds slightly more viable than they were before because spreading CP was more beneficial?

Sorry, I must be getting confused about the history of CP now...

yes, we're getting a bunch of nerfs this patch and most of the buffs are going to master / maelstrom weapons which a lot of people don't have.
We're also getting a bunch of nerfs to heavy armour DPS builds.
This has nothing to do with the CP system.
This has nothing to do with CP power creep.

It's mostly to attempt to address issues in PVP.
If you want to keep classes "special" then ask to remove PVP because attempting to balance them for PVP is what is gutting their uniqueness.
That's what ripping out their "soul".
No one in PVE was complaining that the 1h shield ult was too cheap.
No one in PVE had issues with the Warden healing Ult.
Power creep is easy to manage in PVE. Just buff the mobs and voila, job done.
PVP is the problem, but none of you want to admit that so you're blaming it all on some passive buffs in the CP system.

And for the record, I don't want PVP removed, but stop trying to pin the blame on CP. PVP is a lot of fun and it's what keeps a lot of people playing. But stop kidding yourselves All the nerfs are for PVP.

You should really stop talking about things you have no idea about. Its absolutely because of CP and you would actually know it if u were doing any kind of PVP.

The nerfs to sustain happened primarily because of CP. Without the CP the class sustain mechanics wouldnt be nerfed to the ground. Then the front loading happened along with nerfs to some stars to help players be competitive. Thats a good idea but it kinda backfired because there are too many stars to invest ur points. You are not forced to stack them anywhere. So in the end, what that did is give magicka builds 19% roll dodge cost reduction and 19% cc break reduction without sacrificing anything. What it also did is give light armor builds block cost reduction. What it also did is skyrocket the dmg with the introduction of master at arms while also skyrocket the survivability with iron clad. What it basically did is champion system builds. Everyone runs a different version of the same [snip]. And no it certainly did not make hybrids viable in any shape or form.

There is nothing fun about CP. There is absolutely nothing you actively do. Its just numbers optimizing ur build. You are not even making choices on where to put ur points. Especially in PVE. You have to put them on specific stars or you are just gimping urself.

And that silly argument about no one complaining in PVE is getting old. Yes no one complains in PVE. Thats because you are fighting mobs. They cant complain about you abusing the ever living [snip] out of them.

@pieratsos
Read my other post https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4575451/#Comment_4575451 and you'll see that I not only agree with most of what you're saying, I suggest some possible solutions.

The main crux of the post you just quoted is that the nerfs to classes are NOT because of CP, but because of PVP. For example, wrath removal and armour skills requiring 5pc and frags CC removal and every other skill nerf is for PVP balance, not because CP as the OP has stated.

because of CP, power has shifted from classes and core skills into the CP system, and as it gets stronger and more broken (as it does update after update) ZOS as to nerf something in response, and that something has always been and continues to be, classes, races, weapons and armor lines, sets, etc. everything except the precious CP system it loves so much.

This statement is not true. This is because of PVP.

The sustain nerfs ARE because of CP, and the biggest nerf for sustain was in the CP system! Cost reduction was removed and regen nerfed hard, but nothing of value was added to the green CP tree so there is no trade off at all and everyone might as well get breakfree, dodgeroll and block reduction.
Everyone might as well get ironskin and thick skinned. Why the hell not? There is no trade off.

Seriously, read my other post. the problem with CP is where the skills are in the trees and where our "choices" are. there are no choices or trade offs because you're not choosing between damage reduction and damage increase, or damage vs sustain. It's choose stam or magi and get all the damage and all the damage reduction and all the regen and all the stam cost reduction.

the only thing you CAN'T do is both magi and stam damage. That's literally the only restriction.

Of course not every single nerf in the game is because of CP. No one is arguing that. There will never be perfect class balance. But the main point people make is that CP has completely ruined the game and nerfs all over the place do happen because of CP. Class mechanics completely gutted, stupid mechanics etc. And there is nothing to argue about that. Its a fact.

Even if you had a choice between sustain and dmg in CP. There would still be nothing fun about it. Sure it would be better at the beginning, mainly in PVP but still its just numbers in a system with no future bound to fail like it is now. As long as you gain more and more CP the idea of "choice" is just going to go away prety much like it is now. You put the points in specific stars to perform well or you go home. There is no character customization, its just character optimization taking the power out of the classes.

Classes dont feel unique anymore. The power has shifted to CP and classes continue to suffer from it as long as CP is getting more powerful. That is the main issue. The champion system either needs a complete redesign to become more about character customization or just straight up nerf every single passive to the point where they provide meaningless combat effectiveness or bring softcaps back (not as harsh as they used to be) just to keep the damn system in check. If they dont want to do this in PVE cause the entire content would need to be readjusted they can at least just do it in PVP cause as it is now, PVP is just slowly dying.

[Edited for quote]

pieratsos

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Isn't the point of CP increases to allow a little more progression.

Thats the issue. Its not a little more. Its literally doubling or tripling the combat effectiveness of builds. Those nerfs that you mentioned and dont like, happened because of CP and no, making CP even stronger by reinstating the cost reduction passive especially now that its front loaded wont make things better. It will make things worse by further nerfing classes and every other game mechanic just to keep builds under control.

I still dont understand how can anyone be in favor of that system. Since they introduced it they just keep
raising the cap >> nerfing the passives>> raise the cap >> nerfing the passives and they are locked in this endless cycle. We are already approaching on yet another nerf of CP. Whether its going to be the next patch or the patch after that, its inevitable. Its obvious that the system at its current state is a big failure and its squeezing the life out of the game. Both in PVP and PVE.

Tannus15

pieratsos wrote: »

Of course not every single nerf in the game is because of CP. No one is arguing that. There will never be perfect class balance. But the main point people make is that CP has completely ruined the game and nerfs all over the place do happen because of CP. Class mechanics completely gutted, stupid mechanics etc. And there is nothing to argue about that. Its a fact.

you keep making this statement.
Which nerfs are you talking about apart from the sustain nerfs? What class skills / passives have been nerfed due to CP??

• CP power creep is an issue.
• CP is rather bland and un-interesting.
• CP has very few choices, you just get stronger across the board.

these statements I can get behind.

I can sort of get behind

• CP has homogenised builds by letting players smooth over the bumps in random build X and help it compete with BiS build Y

What passives are you talking about? some examples please.

Adenoma

Please don't nerf no-CP NPCs. Once upon a time it was hard to solo resources. I like that they actually represent a challenge to some mild degree and it discourages PvDoor. When I go to Vivec or Shor they just feel like pointless annoyances.

Manotilo4

@Tannus15 There are many active abilities, passives and class mechanics that have been nerfed and the reason has mostly been the power CP gives to builds.
Examples are:
Templars: Lost Major Mending-Main Reason was that the insane amount of healing that could be stacked through 2 CP Stars, blessed and quick recovery. Therefore, a unique passive was gutted from the class to prevent the insane amounts of healing they could achieve.

Dragonknights: They had major mending nerfed from ignious shield for the same reason- insane healing achieved through blessed and quick recovery.
DKs also had battle roar passive nerfed. One of the reasons was that battle roar was giving great sustain to dks combined with CP sustain passives and passives such as shadow ward for blocking and the unchained passive for cost reduction after break free.
As you can see again a class loses part of its uniqueness due to the power creep the CP system causes.

Nightblades got similar treatment as well. Siphoning attacks (one of the most unique class abilities) has received nerfs approximately 4-5 times. A big reason for this has been the great sustain Stamblades were getting through CP sustain passives for recovery and even the unchained passive and the amount of dodge rolls that could be achieved by stacking points into tumbling. Magblades were also getting exceptional sustain results especially by stacking both into magicka and stamina recovery CP trees and even from the Arcane Well passive.( this stands for all classes of course)
The point again is that Siphoning Attacks was an awesome ability and class mechanic that has completely been gutted; Siphoning attacks was nice and exciting, the numbers and percentages in CP trees, are not!

Again Sorcerers could perhaps say something similar about their shields that were nerfed back in Dark Brotherhood patch. I know, that's not the only problem shields had back then (i.e. Dots didnt affect them), but still everyone must remember all the people moaning about how strong their shields were along with bastion.

Now heavy armour is losing Wrath (because of the already great damage HA builds achieve through CP) and medium and light armour already lost cost reduction in Morrowind due to the great sustain coming from CP. Also medium armour builds can barely block more than twice in a row when being zerged down (yeah i know im exagerating a bit) on live now because of the block nerf a few patches ago. Needless to say, a big reason for the general nerf to blocking was the ridiculous permablock certain builds could achieve with the help of shadow ward (a nerf that didnt affect these cancer builds at all brw).

These were the only few examples of CP being the reason for class nerfs I could remember on the top of my head at 6.05 am. Im a sure there must be more. You see all classes and even armour types have been nerfed. Class abilities (siphoning attacks), class mechanics/ passives (battle roar, major mending) armor passives (wrath) are FUN. Numbers on a page are NOT fun.

Zenimax, give to classes back our unique abilities and remove this disgusting system where balance is achieved by giving to players higher numbers every patch and in turn nerfing our mechanics.

Sorry for long post

pieratsos

Tannus15 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Of course not every single nerf in the game is because of CP. No one is arguing that. There will never be perfect class balance. But the main point people make is that CP has completely ruined the game and nerfs all over the place do happen because of CP. Class mechanics completely gutted, stupid mechanics etc. And there is nothing to argue about that. Its a fact.

you keep making this statement.
Which nerfs are you talking about apart from the sustain nerfs? What class skills / passives have been nerfed due to CP??

• CP power creep is an issue.
• CP is rather bland and un-interesting.
• CP has very few choices, you just get stronger across the board.

these statements I can get behind.

I can sort of get behind

• CP has homogenised builds by letting players smooth over the bumps in random build X and help it compete with BiS build Y

What passives are you talking about? some examples please.

Entire class mechanics has been completely gutted because of CP. Mechanics that scale of max stats that were overperforming. Guess why. Because of the massive amounts max stats that you can get from CP. Sustain mechanics of classes getting destroyed. Guess why. Because CP was giving a huge chunk of sustain. Sustain from armor getting nerfed. blocking, dodging, streaking, shielding. Everything getting shot down one after the other. Abilities with a lot of dmg getting nerfed because CP amplified that dmg and pushed it out of control. Armor sets getting nerfed. Almost everything is somehow connected with CP because it amplifies everything and push them out of control and they are forced to gut them to retain the balance. And i dont disagree with these nerfs most of the time. They need to happen. But its not healthy for the game. Its just never going to end.

As long as CP is in its current state, and when i say current state i mean giving massive amount of power to characters, the endless cycle will continue. It doesnt matter if you change it in a way where you force players to choose between sustain or dmg. Thats actually going to make the gap between low CP players and high CP players even bigger. The whole point of a frontloaded system is to limit the effectiveness u get by stacking into passives. But if i have too many choices and i dont have to stack in any passive to begin with then whats the point. You are just giving even more power to the system and to those with high CP. Its just another band aid fix that will ultimately going to fail again the more CPs we get.

And the sad part is that this is the route they will choose to go most likely cause its the easy way out instead of actually make a longterm plan that will slowly transition the power back to classes while completely redesigning CP and actually make it a fun system that gives meaningful choices that actually affect builds in a lot of ways, and also adjusting the content accordingly. That would require time they dont have because they are so obsessed with the damn crown store and every other bs that makes them money. As far as gameplay is concerned, they just want to keep it playable with band aid fixes or whatever that require the least amount of work and push the problems further down the line instead of actually fixing them.

Trashs1

well im agreeing with all the negative factas about cp

what im not so shure.. is zos really only focused on crown store and contend which makes them money and only aiding existing balance with small fixes?

if thats true why they did one tamriel than? im asuming that was a lot of work and everyone got it for free?

davey1107

I don’t know...every time they introduce a non-cp area of the game it becomes a dead zone. It seems like only an extreme minority of players enjoy the non-cp areas.

I don’t personally care...I just prefer that the game have CPs everywhere or nowhere, because having mixed zones creates annoying imbalance and exploit opportunities.

pieratsos

Trashs1 wrote: »

well im agreeing with all the negative factas about cp

what im not so shure.. is zos really only focused on crown store and contend which makes them money and only aiding existing balance with small fixes?

if thats true why they did one tamriel than? im asuming that was a lot of work and everyone got it for free?

The concept of 1T already existed in game in prety much every single DLC. It wasnt something particularly new and 1T didnt do anything concerning balance and actual gameplay. That wasnt its target anw. If anything it made it 100 times worse by allowing stupid set combinations that resulted in every stupid build you see today. Wasnt a very well thought patch when it comes to gameplay. It was the beginning of the end.

Trashs1

pieratsos wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

well im agreeing with all the negative factas about cp

what im not so shure.. is zos really only focused on crown store and contend which makes them money and only aiding existing balance with small fixes?

if thats true why they did one tamriel than? im asuming that was a lot of work and everyone got it for free?

The concept of 1T already existed in game in prety much every single DLC. It wasnt something particularly new and 1T didnt do anything concerning balance and actual gameplay. That wasnt its target anw. If anything it made it 100 times worse by allowing stupid set combinations that resulted in every stupid build you see today. Wasnt a very well thought patch when it comes to gameplay. It was the beginning of the end.

well i dont think so

i played alot of WOW WAR and AOC back that days and eso now for 10 months (post 1T) and when i started the ability to go everywhere was one of the most important points i gave eso a real try and not played only a few days. (got it in sale for idk 6€)

what happend to the wired set combos or how the old veteran rank system was idk

pieratsos

Trashs1 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

well im agreeing with all the negative factas about cp

what im not so shure.. is zos really only focused on crown store and contend which makes them money and only aiding existing balance with small fixes?

if thats true why they did one tamriel than? im asuming that was a lot of work and everyone got it for free?

The concept of 1T already existed in game in prety much every single DLC. It wasnt something particularly new and 1T didnt do anything concerning balance and actual gameplay. That wasnt its target anw. If anything it made it 100 times worse by allowing stupid set combinations that resulted in every stupid build you see today. Wasnt a very well thought patch when it comes to gameplay. It was the beginning of the end.

well i dont think so

i played alot of WOW WAR and AOC back that days and eso now for 10 months (post 1T) and when i started the ability to go everywhere was one of the most important points i gave eso a real try and not played only a few days. (got it in sale for idk 6€)

what happend to the wired set combos or how the old veteran rank system was idk

I think you are a little confused here. Being able to go anywhere you want isnt balance and actual gameplay combat changes. Thats precisely what i told you. In that regard (combat, balance etc) it was one of the worst patches ever.

Autumnhart

Joy_Division wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

I'd argued that it's a catch 22. A conundrum that neither ZoS nor the players can be happy about it. The cp system was something that was needed post the veteran levels era. Veteran lvl were just too time consuming and none of the right gratification given. Yeah there were players that had 10 vet lvl 16 chars before the change but honestly, that is an outlier. Most players just had one char that they focused on.

Cp was then front loaded to help out with the loss of veteran levels. But ultimately, both systems were put in place to counter the fast and voracious content eaters that are the players. And no amount of content generated will be enough for players, regardless of replayability or rate of release.

The ideal behind cp is... Ideal. It's suppose to promote build diversity by allowing better control over your stats, over your build stat distribution.

Let's then take this system out. What if it wasn't replaced and its basically just lvl 1-50. How do you then address the vertical progression? You can talk all you want that other rpgs or action games don't need this but think in terms of an mmo. How do you keep the sense of progression in a game that will be untouched largely for its content?

Do you then add new classes? Add more skill lines? That's horizontal, not vertical. How do you keep vertical progression?

What ought to be done after level 50 is provide a progression system that offers players avenues to subtly augment, specialize, and customize the power already in their classes, not grab huge chunks of raw power. A DK might be able to turn whip into a stamina morph. A light armor user might be able to gain the sneak/speed passives from medium armor. A Sorcerer might become an Ice wizard. Stuff like that.

That would be much better than what we have now.

And I'd actually gaf about my CP. Right now it's just a chore that has to be dealt with now and then.

Tannus15

@Manotilo4 Long post is good.

I would disagree with most of those examples however.

Half of them are part of the sustain nerfs where everything, across the board, that gave sustain was significantly nerfed. Battle roar, siphon strikes, helping hands, redemption, bone pirate, everything.

All were nerfed with the sustain nerfs so that certain classes didn't get massive, unbalanced advantages over other classes. CP was included in this nerf, and it wasn't because of CP.
ZoS had decided that resource management should be an active part of the game via heavy attacks.
The sustain nerfs were not because of CP.
All the CP cost reduction was removed and CP regen was heavily nerfed as well.
This was a blanket change to the entire game to dramatically reduce the amount of regen and cost reduction we had available.

Which abilities and sets got nerfed due to CP?

Abilities with a lot of dmg getting nerfed because CP amplified that dmg and pushed it out of control. Armor sets getting nerfed. Almost everything is somehow connected with CP because it amplifies everything and push them out of control and they are forced to gut them to retain the balance.

Which ones? How? Where? Sure everything is connected to CP, but CP is not the root cause of all your problems.
Wrecking blow didn't get it's CC removed due to CP.
Shields didn't get their duration nerfed from 30 seconds to 6 seconds due to CP.
Armour skills aren't getting restricted to 5pc because of CP and they aren't increasing the cost of the warden ultimate while nerfing it's healing done due to CP.

Please point to some concrete examples of where CP was the problem.

Larsay

The problem is not the Champion Point System itself. Never has been. It is ZoS not understanding what a system like this does to a game, and players requesting unrealistic fixes.

The Champion Point System in itself is great. It offers up an additional method of character growth outside of just the leveling system. Every MMO to withstand the test of time has either what feels like a never ending leveling system where new levels are constantly being added, or a alternative level system one a "cap" level has be reached.

These systems cause power creep. No way around it outside of constant nerfs to keep old content challenging and relevant. The only was to defeat the power creep monster is to release new content that is designed around this new power level.

For instance dungeons like Falkreath and Bloodroot should designed around our current CP not CP 160. When this happens old content will become trivialized to end game players no question. But it has the added benefit that groups that are struggling now down the road will be able to clear.

In other games we see this. You have end game trial guilds who are competing the latest and greatest raids. Then the next tier down group may be an expansion pack behind and so forth and so forth.

In a nutshell... The first thing that must be understood and accepted is power creep is going to happen. Let it happen. Let us grown. Just build new content around said new power level....

Players expecting content to stay relevant is silly. I and I am sure I am not alone find it to be far from enjoyable to be doing vAA for the billionth and one time.

It also leads to watered down gear like find in HoF. As ZoS is too afraid to put anything new and exciting in there... because oh no now the new gear could make our players too powerful!!!

Then we move to PvP where the problem is further seen. The problem is not the Champion Point System there either. It is a failure to separate the rule set between PvP and PvE. As one element of the game gets balanced and tweaked in negatively impacts the other side. Champion Points to amplify the problem. But so do new gear sets and skills.

Its a vicious circle. And in the games current state it will always be this same vicious circle over and over again.

ZoS needs to break the cycle. And it starts with allowing the power creep and separating the rulesets between PvP and PvE so they can be balanced independent of one another plain and simple.

Manotilo4

@Tannus15 However, would all these sustain nerfs and class mechanic nerfs be necessary if there was no CP system? Tbh, I don't know but I don't think so. I agree that the concept of the overall sustain nerfs in class skills was in order to change the way classes were sustaining (and that's why they even nerfed the CP system) but what actually started causing the need for all the nerfs at first place? In the first patches where battle roar, siphoning attacks, helping hands, etc, were at their greatest spot, sustaining was still pretty tough (with some exceptions-ie:magic dk vampire and stamblade with Siphoning attacks and caltrops combo). Some people will even tell you that they were the toughest patches in terms of sustain.

Having PVPed in no CP a lot for the past year, I believe that all these abilities and passives giving sustain (siphoning strikes, battle roar, helping hands), healing (mending on templars) , damage (wrath from heavy, Crystal Frags and even Banner) ,were not really overperforming but were on their own pretty balanced and most importantly they defined certain playstyles. These active abilities and passives however were shining in CP campaigns because of their combination with CP sustain, healing and damage passives. For this reason I am assuming that CP was one of the core reasons for nerfs even if they were not the root of the all problem as you said.

Even if what I am saying is not the reason they were nerfing the skills, the part which really annoys me is that without doubt ALL classes lost a big part of their uniqueness. The point is that I continue to see 'buffs' in the CP system (through CP cap increase every patch) and for the sake of balance it appears that these buffs to CP are 'countered' through nerfs to class mechanics. Almost every patch we are given more CPs and in turn we have nerfs to class mechanics, this is a fact. Honestly, I cannot think of anything else that could have caused so many nerfs other than CP.

A few years ago, before CP and even when CP cap was 501, not many people had issues/problems with helping hands, battle roar, siphoning attacks, mending on templars and DKs. After playing many classes back then I had the feeling that each was special with their own special mechanics. Atm on live, all builds in general gain their biggest amount of Sustain, Healing, Damage and overall survivability through the CP system, instead from their own unique passives like they are supposed to (in my opinion at least). This caused the quality of my own and other people's gaming experience to drop to a huge extent.

There are examples of nerfs where CP was irrelevant like you said (Warden Ulti, Shuffle being restricted to medium), but in the examples I mentioned (mending, siphoning attacks, battle roar, etc) CP could have been a big contributor to the nerfs since these mechanics got skyrocketed in power with the help of CP.

You see me mentioning the same skills and passives over and over. This is because they used to define certain classes and make them feel special; I am simply trying to evaluate the nerfs behind class defining skills. If CP was not the main reason why do you think these mechanics where gutted? Why now? The picture I get personaly is that raw power, is given to builds through the CP cap increase, something that in turn is balanced out with nerfs to classes.

A different kind of progression system instead of CP (like @Joy_Division mentioned for example) would not cause these sort of problems and would create more interesting progression other than numbers on a page. Giving raw power to people every patch will necessarilly lead to nerfs of class mechanics and the more power given into the system we have currently, the more nerfs classes will face.

Again, sorry for the long post (some things I said are a bit off topic in relation to what you said, but they relate to the overall problem people are having in game right now, which is the overall quality of gameplay which has decreased substantially in many ways.

pieratsos

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Manotilo4 Long post is good.

I would disagree with most of those examples however.

Half of them are part of the sustain nerfs where everything, across the board, that gave sustain was significantly nerfed. Battle roar, siphon strikes, helping hands, redemption, bone pirate, everything.

All were nerfed with the sustain nerfs so that certain classes didn't get massive, unbalanced advantages over other classes. CP was included in this nerf, and it wasn't because of CP.
ZoS had decided that resource management should be an active part of the game via heavy attacks.
The sustain nerfs were not because of CP.
All the CP cost reduction was removed and CP regen was heavily nerfed as well.
This was a blanket change to the entire game to dramatically reduce the amount of regen and cost reduction we had available.

Which abilities and sets got nerfed due to CP?

Abilities with a lot of dmg getting nerfed because CP amplified that dmg and pushed it out of control. Armor sets getting nerfed. Almost everything is somehow connected with CP because it amplifies everything and push them out of control and they are forced to gut them to retain the balance.

Which ones? How? Where? Sure everything is connected to CP, but CP is not the root cause of all your problems.
Wrecking blow didn't get it's CC removed due to CP.
Shields didn't get their duration nerfed from 30 seconds to 6 seconds due to CP.
Armour skills aren't getting restricted to 5pc because of CP and they aren't increasing the cost of the warden ultimate while nerfing it's healing done due to CP.

Please point to some concrete examples of where CP was the problem.

CP was the cause of sustain nerfs. I gave you examples of CP being the reason passives/abilities were overperforming and they nerfed the abilities and passives instead of the problem that caused them to outperform. ZoS decided that resource management should be an active part of the game but the reason why it wasnt is CP. Not just because of the cost reduction and regen. Everything had to do with it. Things are not just black and white. I also told you if you were actually doing any PVP you would know. You couldnt just simply ignore sustain in no CP before morrowind. Even with the overperforming set combinations that resulted from 1T (thats a whole different story).

Block, shields, streak, dodge getting nerfed because of CP. Battle spirit. Increased costs per cast. Even the nerf on the duration of shields is basically a CP problem. Why do u think they outperform. Bastion, max magicka being pushed through the roof, easily sustainable.

You want examples of where CP is the problem? Just look at the damn game. The entire game is ur example. Balance is out of control. One shots, unkillable tanks, one button wonder builds, broken mechanics. The tooltips on my abilities are about 50% stronger with CP. Thats just way too much power completely unrelated with the class. There is nothing unique about classes and builds anymore. Everyone is playing a different version of the same crap.

Every patch they raise the cap by prety much half the CP of what was originally intended cause they just dont know how to deal with it. And instead of just making a plan to fix it they just keep nerfing the system every now and then just to push the problem further down the line. Its an endless cycle. There is nothing good about that system and most certainly nothing fun about it. It failed miserably, it has no future, its squeezing the life out of the game and it needs a complete rework.