Earthgore - The Zerg Set

asneakybanana

I am not totally sure what ZOS had in mind when they designed this set but it is incredibly overpowered, especially when stacking multiple in a group/zerg to the point where you dont even need to use any heal other than the one to proc the set when you are being focused or bombed by multiple enemy ultimates. This set not only removes ALL ground effects currently affecting you or your group, which makes many ultimates such as nova, banner, veil, stationary destro, catapult morph of bow ultimate and a few other class ones that I can't currently think of.

So looking at the benefits of this set compared to other sets, while it doesn't offer the highest overall HPS potential it does offer the highest burst healing potential which is what you really are looking for in PVP since usually it is short periods of burst followed by recovery and you need to survive the burst. Comparing this to another support set such as bloodspawn or Troll King and there is simply no choice. Bloodspawn is going to allow you to have your tree ultimate (which the healing from this set is comparable to) 5s sooner and will take 6 BS procs to build enough ultimate for the trees just from the BS procs which is going to take 36 seconds if your BS procs on cooldown (which it won't and usually procs between 8 and 12s depending on how much damage you are taking in which case youre looking at over a minute for the procs to build your tree ultimate.
Then with Troll King, assuming everyone in group is not a vamp so it is the most effective, you are looking at 1548 health regen which is ~ 775 HPS so if you multiply this by the 35s that earthgore has a cooldown of, you are looking at a total health increase of 27.1k over 35s which is less than earthgore plus it doesn't have the bonus of being able to have multiple down and healing at the same time as well as dispelling all ground effects.

This is not just a healing/support set though. Many groups have almost all their damage players running this as well because it makes it so they can run minimal healers in group and stack more destros. Comparing this to Grothdarr which adds around 800 single target dps in bombs and having lets say 12 people with grothdarr, if you stack all your damage in earthgore and can run 4 more destros lets say, so that will be 8 per wave instead of 6 and a destro is going to be 3-4000 single target DPS you are looking at a DPS increase of between 1200-3200 single target in both waves as well as the fact that the destro has a much much larger radius. This metric allows groups to be running 2/3 of their members using EoTS and 20/24 running EG and the destro nerf next patch will not have any effect on this due to the fact that even with their destro going slightly down in damage they are still going to be ticking for around 3k unblockable single target.

This makes fighting any group that outnumbers you and has a healer or two running this nearly impossible to kill as any time you get someone low, EG will proc and 'save them' and by the time you are able to get them low again their proc will likely be close to ready. Hopefully someone at ZOS will see this and we will maybe see some action on this in the first few weeks of clockwork city.

gabriebe

TLDR: 'My bomb blade group is annoyed that they're facing a solid counter'.

If anything, makes things more interesting since such bomb groups kind of need to make sure they have two waves in rapid succession, the first to get the EG to pop, and the second to mow people down during the cooldown.

I find it a lot more interesting in terms of figthing than just wiping to a single stealth EotS bomb.

asneakybanana

gabriebe wrote: »

TLDR: 'My bomb blade group is annoyed that they're facing a solid counter'.

If anything, makes things more interesting since such bomb groups kind of need to make sure they have two waves in rapid succession, the first to get the EG to pop, and the second to mow people down during the cooldown.

I find it a lot more interesting in terms of figthing than just wiping to a stealth EotS bomb.

I mean I've run into issues on sorc and stam dk as well but sure lets say bomb blade isnt effective, also why one of the mag wardens in my PVP group that runs earthgore thinks it's an idiotic set as well. It can make fights more interesting sometimes but most the time it ends up with enemies too scared to fight you after you proc their EGs. Have had guilds run away and start spamming sieges on us until the cooldown has elapsed which doesn't make for fun pvp to me. As it is you can outheal any amount of destros with negate, heal ults and springs in organized groups and EG just puts healing way out of balance with damage.

Crown

It's interesting to consider that for those of us who don't often run groups larger than 8, being able to take out a group of 24 among whom 18+ are wearing Earthgore is almost impossible. Sure - we'll kill half of them, but 10 Earthgore procs around the same time will let those still alive ignore all incoming damage for a few seconds and rez their friends while we have to back off and get ults up again.

@asneakybanana We can all agree that Earthgore (like many other changes, sets, etc.) was not well thought out by people who actually play the game, and is just one more thing that benefits large groups much more than small. We know that this is how the game has been, and is very likely how the game will continue to be. Complaining about it won't accomplish anything other than increase your own frustration levels, so just enjoy what there is to enjoy in the game and if you spend too much of your time and energy getting upset about it, then you're not going to have as much fun.

gabriebe

It's really hard to keep track of the EG cooldown unless you're the only one running it in a group, to be honest. Unless some add-on can track it now, I'm just not aware of any. The set has many downsides, especially if you have a tendency to overheal. I use it on my healer and if anything it's made me a lot more careful about what I heal than I did before, because it's so strategic now. It procs off pets, guards, doors and walls even. It's very easy to waste it.

I don't really get the complaint about people using siege and whatnot. Sure, it's annoying, especially if you have smaller numbers, but then again not everyone is running an AOE-centric build. If you're fighting a magica and heals heavy tight group, maybe shooting a lightning ballista into them instead of the usual fire is smarter.

People usually stay at range of your group because they know you're mostly all on Vicious Death and Eye of the Flame. That's not likely to change, EG or not. I'd also add that 8 people killing 24 is fun, but in a balanced game shouldn't really be the expected result.

Thraben

gabriebe wrote: »

(1) It's really hard to keep track of the EG cooldown unless you're the only one running it in a group, to be honest. Unless some add-on can track it now, I'm just not aware of any. The set has many downsides, especially if you have a tendency to overheal. I use it on my healer and if anything it's made me a lot more careful about what I heal than I did before, because it's so strategic now. It procs off pets, guards, doors and walls even. It's very easy to waste it.

(2) I don't really get the complaint about people using siege and whatnot. Sure, it's annoying, especially if you have smaller numbers, but then again not everyone is running an AOE-centric build. If you're fighting a magica and heals heavy tight group, maybe shooting a lightning ballista into them instead of the usual fire is smarter.

(3) People usually stay at range of your group because they know you're mostly all on Vicious Death and Eye of the Flame. That's not likely to change, EG or not. I'd also add that 8 people killing 24 is fun, but in a balanced game shouldn't really be the expected result.

1) Soon people will figure out that there are classes/roles that can more effectively use that set so that it always procs in the very right moment. Templars tend to waste it. So your argument will be obsolete soon when people start using their brains.

2) Because of purge, you need more lightning ballistae to shoot simultaneously than you need to one-shot a whole raid with other ballistae to achieve measurable anti-magicka effects. Not even speaking of warden stam healers (who are better than magicka heal wardens in critical situations).

3) You don´t need to run a ball group to think that Earthgore should EITHER heal, OR negate ground based effects, not both. Though I can cope with the situation by changing battle tactics (because I don´t run in a ball group), I strongly dislike the fact that a group can be out-procct by another, larger but less effective one just because they are better at farming in PvE.

Azurya

It is obvious, PvP asks for it, so NERF it NOW!

asneakybanana

gabriebe wrote: »

It's really hard to keep track of the EG cooldown unless you're the only one running it in a group, to be honest. Unless some add-on can track it now, I'm just not aware of any. The set has many downsides, especially if you have a tendency to overheal. I use it on my healer and if anything it's made me a lot more careful about what I heal than I did before, because it's so strategic now. It procs off pets, guards, doors and walls even. It's very easy to waste it.

I don't really get the complaint about people using siege and whatnot. Sure, it's annoying, especially if you have smaller numbers, but then again not everyone is running an AOE-centric build. If you're fighting a magica and heals heavy tight group, maybe shooting a lightning ballista into them instead of the usual fire is smarter.

People usually stay at range of your group because they know you're mostly all on Vicious Death and Eye of the Flame. That's not likely to change, EG or not. I'd also add that 8 people killing 24 is fun, but in a balanced game shouldn't really be the expected result.

It's not that hard. Get bombed, you hide for 30s, okay off cooldown let's go bomb again and in the mean time let's hide with cold fire siege. By definition if you are over healing it will never proc since people would never drop below 50% health. So let's take for example my drac raids. Usually we have maybe 5 people using EG in group, mainly the healers, and earthgore almost never procs unless we are getting bombed (or someone is doing something stupid). The healers spam springs non stop on the group even when we are all topped off 100% which is the definition of over healing.

I mean it's not so much people using siege. The groups I've played with have had people spamming siege against us since before CPs. But people have always been willing to fight and challenge us but now groups refuse to fight us while their EG is off cooldown. The only other time this remotely reminds me of it when ve was running pheonix and would wait the 10 minutes before fighting again every time they wiped but at least they were willing to fight until they wiped. As far as lightning ballista that's just lol. It isn't even noticeable when we are getting hit by it.

There's a difference between staying at range and refusing to fight without a crutch. The fact that there is any set out there that is so strong that groups will refuse to fight while it's on cooldown should prove my point. My group still fights when our alchemist is on cooldown and we still fight when we don't have ultimates up as do many other groups but the groups stacking this set I've noticed have changed their playstyle all together to pretty much solely rely on this set.

We could discuss groups and how this set is changing the game for eternity but the fact is that if you are a healer for a group, no matter the size, and you don't run EG you're gimping yourself and earthgore is head and shoulders above any other monster set competition and even pretty much all 5 piece bonuses.

gabriebe

You can't hide for 30 seconds if you don't survive the first hit. Even with Earthgore, plenty of people wipe because of the Vicious Death cascade effect. I know I can pretty much take a walk in an EotS, it's the people splatting all over me that are typically the problem. The overhealing/wasting EG thing is usually a problem when we're getting oiled, in open field it's not that frequent because I usually run with a group that stays together. Healers spamming healing springs isn't overhealing if they're doing it on a tight group to keep up the Spell Power Cure proc (and the HoT that can proc the Earthgore).

I just fundamentally don't understand why you're pissed off that people are refusing to fight you. They know you're a bomb group. The proper response is to spread out and stay away, no matter the size. It's almost like they are trying to manage an OP set...

VaranisArano

Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. This is a set that clearly benefits groups of 8 to 24 players. Oddly enough, this seems to fit into the general design of Cyrodiil.

I understand the complaints of small group players who feel ineffective in dealing with these builds. Sometimes there are situations where small groups just aren't going to be effective and it takes another organized raid to pull the other raid apart. That's why Cyrodiil is for groups of 8 to 24 players.

Or in less nice terms. "Oh noes, the large groups have a set that benefits their playstyle and are using it effectively, and so my small group can't kill them even if we're totally the bestest on the map! It's not fair!"

From the perspective of a player in the raid who's helped pull those raids apart and kill them, meh? Its not unbeatable if you have better tactics and the DPS to pull it off. It is a little cheesy, but if I complained about every cheesy build there was in PVP I'd never get to play the game.

TBois

This set is part of the reason why I don't enjoy playing in large groups as much now. Large group fighting was much more interesting when people used a mix of class ground based ultimates, negate, standard, veil, and nova. Those fights were interesting. Now most groups run destro for damage, and earthgore is just another argument in favor of this playstyle. Pugs and elite large grps alike dislike the destro playsttle it seems. This set is just making what cyrodiil is designed for, 8 to 24 man grps, BORING.

OdinForge

Earthgore is simply a crutch for bad players hiding in large groups, anyone who cares about balance understands that this set was poorly thought out.

It's embarrassing when groups outnumber you 5 to 1 and still wipe, while often times having multiple users with this set.

Like malubeth when it was broken, there will always be something like earthgore for zerg groups to crutch on.

asneakybanana

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players. This is a set that clearly benefits groups of 8 to 24 players. Oddly enough, this seems to fit into the general design of Cyrodii.

I totally agree with this and never said it wasn't. I rather enjoy large scale PvP and have noticed this set helps quite a bit but when it is BiS for every role in group there is obviously something a little off about it. The only spec where it is even questionable to run is a damage build depending on group size and comp but in an ideal world damage where it too. Ruins diversity that the destro nerf was going to hopefully bring (even though it wouldn't have).

Adenoma

@gabriebe , you need to play in tighter groups to understand a little better what folks mean when they're talking about hiding for 30s, overhealing, and earthgore.

First off, they're all talking about raid groups with dedicated retreating maneuvers spammers to keep the group constantly moving. That lets you "hide" because it's not frequent that pug groups or disorganized individuals can effectively damage a group that is immune to snares and moves 40% faster.

Overhealing isn't for spell power cure. Keeping heals up is a bigger deal for transmutation and gossamer. Damage in bomb groups isn't that important because of numbers. I mean, groups of magNBs that are wearing plague doctor, VD, and grothdarr are not exactly your DPS gods, but running sap + proxy bombs + low damage EotS overlapping is going to DPS down most everyone. It's uncommon that these groups will drop to 50% because of their healing so they have good control over their earthgore procs.

Earthgore itself is a hard reset "oh crap" button that enables small ball groups. The fact that it purges negates disables the best counterplay to these groups. Earthgore is a small raid enabled, just like how the new 12% reduction to EotS is also an enabler.

Akinos

Earthgore definitely carries some people in PvP...It's really annoying when you are winning a 1vX and suddenly 3-5 Earthgore sets go off and everybody shoots back up to full heath right when they were about to die. xD

gabriebe

I just usually make a distinction between zergs and raids. Zergs, at least how i've always understood it, are the disorganized pugs group that kinda flock along the Nikel/Roe and Bleakers/Chal lines, while raids are the large organized and usually guild-only groups. Considering OP is in one of those tight group that will retreat, hide and fight once their group burst is back up, it didn't really cross my mind that it's specifically what he was referring to. The overhealing comment was more about whatever proc you need to keep up with healing; I run transmutation on my EG healer too.

As for EG disabling negates, it's kind of hard to pull off or at least it doesn't reliably do it. If you're the one with the set, you need to be outside the negate to get your heal in, and get the EG to proc on top of someone who is in the negate. And since most people just roll off immediately the negate, it's not always successful.

I just don't particularly see a problem with the set. It's a counter to raid tactics, namely the destro-negate train that you can sometimes pull off single-handedly if you time your EG right, on a back flag for example. It's kind of the healing equivalent to solo bombers, who in large groups just become nearly impossible to deal with. A change I'd agree with is changing the proc to trigger from a HoT instead of straight up heal, since it's a threshold that's a little harder to reach for non-healers.

Adenoma

The thing is that EG procs are much more controlled in a larger organized raid group. Strictly speaking, the only times I've had EG proc is when I've been in deep trouble where we would otherwise wipe. Otherwise, around 85-90% of the time I am functioning with full health and I am very rarely under 50% unless a wipe is imminent.

This doesn't enable groups to fight raids. It enables raids who can control their procs while providing organized DPS.

When you're running EG you aren't getting an opportunity to use it optimally like Drac, Zerg Squad, or other small raid guilds.

Vilestride

Sneakys points are valid and what's more of a testament to how strong the set is, is that it's exactly groups like ours that benifit most from it and we are here admitting it is to strong and suggesting it should be changed.

As @Adenoma pointed out EG is auto saving us in prescisly the times we might otherwise be wiping. You say you rarely see it clear negates but I can promise you the times groups like ours even drop below 50% health to proc it are almost exclusively when we get negated. You also mentioned that you have to be outside negates to heal your group to proc it but again, your healers are typically the ones who are off to the side out of negate specifically for this reason.

By all means don't Nerf the set. I mean it's the group's like mine and the OPs that it is helping the most so I don't really mind but objectively speaking it is too strong.

Adenoma

Not to mention that EG can trigger off of things like rapid regen which a lot of guilds will have at least someone stacking for HoTs so it's easy to trigger EG even if the healers are negated.

HoloYoitsu

Sneaky's not wrong, I remember staring at the PTS notes in disbelief along w/ the rest of VE leadership the day Earth Gore was up and deriding how stupid that set was gona be. The heal alone was already OP, and the negate effect left us completely stupefied.

I understand the why of the design: the "idea" must have been to give the pug "zerg" access to the same type of tool that organized raids used to react to bombs - remembrance burst heals and negates. Same as the rationale behind adding prox det, VD and destro were before. And not surprisingly the end result follows the same trend.

I will also add that the "EG meta" quickened our burnout with the game. Not in the sense of "oh har har things got hard for you and you left", but because it simply added on to the constant dumbing down of tactics. EG actually made it easier for us to engage and "farm" pug hordes because it's a stupid safety net that insulates bad play and mistakes.

• It's pretty stupid when you're theory crafting is pushed to: "yeah it's simply most effective to put 80% of the raid in one set because it outperforms everything else."
• It's pretty stupid when smart battlefield movements and calls to outplay your enemy are rendered null and void to a significant degree every 35 seconds "because their EGs procc'd."
• It's pretty stupid when it feels less like you're fighting another raid and instead just fighting against a gear set's cooldown.

Lastly, to the people parroting ideas of "8 ppl shouldn't be able to take out 24" ect. You're mentality is a perfect example of what's wrong with a lot of the player base and many of the game changes over the past few years. Smaller groups absolutely should be able to take out superior numbers if they manage to outplay them.

The problem with Earth Gore is that it does so much to diminish the ability to have an impact on a fight by outplaying your opponent!

VaranisArano

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lastly, to he people parroting ideas of "8 ppl shouldn't be able to take out 24" ect. You're mentality is a perfect example of what's wrong with a lot of the player base and many of the game changes over the past few years. Smaller groups absolutely should be able to take out superior numbers if they manage to outplay them.

The problem with Earth Gore is that it does so much to diminish the ability to have an impact on a fright by outplaying your opponent!

Sure, 8 players should be able to take out 24 players if they outplay them. So, why exactly should those 24 players not get a set that benefits them? Oh, because it makes it harder for your 8 player group? Hmm.

Earthgore used in numbers in an organized raid is not a one-gear-set -win-button. I've been in an organized raid fighting those raids with earthgore. Organized raid vs organized raid usually does come down to who has the better tactics and executed them effectively, not who has the better cheese.

Adenoma

EG makes things easier for small raid groups. Even if pugs use it, it enables the organized group considerably more.

asneakybanana

VaranisArano wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lastly, to he people parroting ideas of "8 ppl shouldn't be able to take out 24" ect. You're mentality is a perfect example of what's wrong with a lot of the player base and many of the game changes over the past few years. Smaller groups absolutely should be able to take out superior numbers if they manage to outplay them.

The problem with Earth Gore is that it does so much to diminish the ability to have an impact on a fright by outplaying your opponent!

Sure, 8 players should be able to take out 24 players if they outplay them. So, why exactly should those 24 players not get a set that benefits them? Oh, because it makes it harder for your 8 player group? Hmm.

Earthgore used in numbers in an organized raid is not a one-gear-set -win-button. I've been in an organized raid fighting those raids with earthgore. Organized raid vs organized raid usually does come down to who has the better tactics and executed them effectively, not who has the better cheese.

Why should a 24 man need a set that benefits them outnumbering the enemy 3:1 when they already have every benefit in the world apart from skill and organization. They have free mitigation, more ultimates, more healing, more people to siege, more people to spam Rez as soon as someone dies. Let's take a look at some of the most popular games in the world. if you took 8 top ranked counter strike or league of legends players and put them in a match against 24 bronze or silver ranked players who do you think would win? My money is on the top ranked players, sure there aren't really game modes where you can get this type of matchup but in those games they are widely considered balanced, part of the reason their competitive modes are so popular, but you can still fight outnumbered. A better example would be taking a pro counter strike player and putting him in a 1v3 situation, I bet you way more often than not he is going to win that. Eso has gradually added more and more mechanics to make 1v3s harder and harder, sure they fixed op things but they've also gone and made it so no matter how well and how clean you play it's almost impossible to win vs. 3x or more your numbers.

HoloYoitsu

VaranisArano wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lastly, to he people parroting ideas of "8 ppl shouldn't be able to take out 24" ect. You're mentality is a perfect example of what's wrong with a lot of the player base and many of the game changes over the past few years. Smaller groups absolutely should be able to take out superior numbers if they manage to outplay them.

The problem with Earth Gore is that it does so much to diminish the ability to have an impact on a fright by outplaying your opponent!

Sure, 8 players should be able to take out 24 players if they outplay them. So, why exactly should those 24 players not get a set that benefits them? Oh, because it makes it harder for your 8 player group? Hmm.

Earthgore used in numbers in an organized raid is not a one-gear-set -win-button. I've been in an organized raid fighting those raids with earthgore. Organized raid vs organized raid usually does come down to who has the better tactics and executed them effectively, not who has the better cheese.

In that example, the 24 players already have the steep advantage of outnumbering the 8 by three to one. No need to get snarky about it.

As I literally said in the last line you quoted, EG is just a tool that diminishes the impact of getting outplayed. If I have to spell it out again then fine. What that means in practical terms is that in an engagement between two identical groups varying only in skill, is that that that skill advantage counts for less now.

The main part I take issue with for EG is the auto negate. As if destro ult's PBAOE design wasn't enough, there's another nail in the coffin for diversity in raid comp. Why run banners/novas/veils when they'll just get auto negated? It even got to the point where there really wasn't any point to running any DKs in raid beyond 2 leaps (which weren't so much better than meteor back when leap KBs didn't even give ult back). I'd hope as someone who runs in raids you can appreciate how EG contributes to dumbing down the group v group meta.

Adenoma

That's my biggest problem with EG, @HoloYoitsu . Try as ZOS might to make ground-based ults sexy they release a set that erases their utility effortlessly.

VaranisArano

I'll be as clear as I can. I believe this set is balanced for raid-to-raid combat. In an organized raid vs organized raid, Earthgore stacking is not a clear advantage and can be beaten by well-executed tactics.

However, Earthgore is clearly not balanced for organized raid vs small group combat, when the raid is the one with the Earthgore stacking. At least, I'm judging by your experiences that small groups find it very difficult to overcome such tactics.


Since Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, and raid to raid combat is a large part of Cyrodiil's gameplay in addition to many other types including raid vs small group, I understand why you think that Earthgore stacking is detrimental in any setting involving a raid vs a smaller group whereas I see it as a tolerable addition to raid vs raid combat.

However, since the set is balanced for a raid vs raid scenario, I question why a set that benefits but not overpowers a raid who does raid vs raid combat should be nerfed because an 8-man group wants a better shot at that raid. It seems to me that having a set that's balanced for raid vs raid isn't a bad addition to Cyrodiil.

SirAndy

asneakybanana wrote: »

Earthgore - The Zerg Set

Good, about time we get some more people into Cyrodiil ...

Vilestride

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'll be as clear as I can. I believe this set is balanced for raid-to-raid combat. In an organized raid vs organized raid, Earthgore stacking is not a clear advantage and can be beaten by well-executed tactics.

However, Earthgore is clearly not balanced for organized raid vs small group combat, when the raid is the one with the Earthgore stacking. At least, I'm judging by your experiences that small groups find it very difficult to overcome such tactics.


Since Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, and raid to raid combat is a large part of Cyrodiil's gameplay in addition to many other types including raid vs small group, I understand why you think that Earthgore stacking is detrimental in any setting involving a raid vs a smaller group whereas I see it as a tolerable addition to raid vs raid combat.

However, since the set is balanced for a raid vs raid scenario, I question why a set that benefits but not overpowers a raid who does raid vs raid combat should be nerfed because an 8-man group wants a better shot at that raid. It seems to me that having a set that's balanced for raid vs raid isn't a bad addition to Cyrodiil.

uhhmmm, I think I understand what you're saying about it being raid vs raid. In that you essentially mean both raids would be carrying this set negating the advantage given by the other group carrying this set as they both have said advantage. But That is not the problem.

honestly (prepare for QQ) the problem is not that it makes it harder for a 8 man organised group to take out a 24 man organised group. I stick by the statement that no inbuilt game mechanics should ever be implemented to advantage you fighting outnumbered. The only factor that should contribute to victory when in this scenario should be skill gap. I am also going to use CS as an example here because obviously its one of the most competitive well balanced games out there. If you are in a 1v3 in counter strike you have nothing extra on your side than the 3 against you other than your own ability level, you don't suddenly get extra bullet damage, or extra armour just because it's now a 1v3.

Moving on, the issue is that earthgore is making it EASIER to fight outnumbered. I have seen it numerous times where even my own raids have made and error and not positioned well resulting in getting caught in to much damage in 12v40 situations and I am thinking "well ***, I can't heal through this, we should have moved away earlier" or whatever, and then praise the lord, its raining blood the day is saved, we get to LOS and we heal up.

The critical point is that is allows more room for error, which is not something you want when trying to build competitive PVP. Whether or not ZoS wants competitive PVP, or just casual PVP that is another question.

Regardless, until it's nerfed to a reasonable level I will use it all day, every day because BiS is BiS.

asneakybanana

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'll be as clear as I can. I believe this set is balanced for raid-to-raid combat. In an organized raid vs organized raid, Earthgore stacking is not a clear advantage and can be beaten by well-executed tactics.

However, Earthgore is clearly not balanced for organized raid vs small group combat, when the raid is the one with the Earthgore stacking. At least, I'm judging by your experiences that small groups find it very difficult to overcome such tactics.

Just because something is counterable in some situations does not make it balanced. You have to consider all other options for sets in those slots and see if anything compares or is better and simply no other set in the game holds a candle to earthgore. Not a 5 piece set or a monster set. Sure maybe a bomber isn't going to want to use it instead of alch or vd when they're solo or a solo sorc doesn't want to wear it (although it's pretty op combined w/ shield stacking).

In the history of pvp, how many sets have had such a broad benefit and required entire raids to start using it? Arguably plague did that to raids, but still only certain groups picked up on it, which was then nerfed anyway. But other than that I can't think of a single set that was introduced that was practically a must for EVERY SINGLE SPEC. I'm not just talking bis for dps like vd has become I'm talking bis for healers and support and DPS and tanks and every single role. Even in PVE there has never been a set that was picked up so vastly by every single role. Sure you have sets that every single DPS or every single tank run but usually when something becomes BiS for a single role it gets nerfed but being BiS for every role? Idk maybe a nerf isn't enough, maybe a total rework of the set or removing some of it's components completely or changing proc conditions to be way harder. Something though.

VaranisArano

Vilestride wrote: »

uhhmmm, I think I understand what you're saying about it being raid vs raid. In that you essentially mean both raids would be carrying this set negating the advantage given by the other group carrying this set as they both have said advantage. But That is not the problem.

Just to clarify, I meant that a raid stacking Earthgore can be beaten by a raid not using or not stacking Earthgore. If it took stacking Earthgore to beat another raid stacking Earthgore, I'd agree it wasn't balanced. But it doesn't. Raids that don't stack Earthgore can beat raids that do with well-executed tactics.

VaranisArano

asneakybanana wrote: »

Just because something is counterable in some situations does not make it balanced. You have to consider all other options for sets in those slots and see if anything compares or is better and simply no other set in the game holds a candle to earthgore. Not a 5 piece set or a monster set. Sure maybe a bomber isn't going to want to use it instead of alch or vd when they're solo or a solo sorc doesn't want to wear it (although it's pretty op combined w/ shield stacking).

In the history of pvp, how many sets have had such a broad benefit and required entire raids to start using it? Arguably plague did that to raids, but still only certain groups picked up on it, which was then nerfed anyway. But other than that I can't think of a single set that was introduced that was practically a must for EVERY SINGLE SPEC. I'm not just talking bis for dps like vd has become I'm talking bis for healers and support and DPS and tanks and every single role. Even in PVE there has never been a set that was picked up so vastly by every single role. Sure you have sets that every single DPS or every single tank run but usually when something becomes BiS for a single role it gets nerfed but being BiS for every role? Idk maybe a nerf isn't enough, maybe a total rework of the set or removing some of it's components completely or changing proc conditions to be way harder. Something though.

If it is truly that BIS for every single spec, then I'm sure ZOS will get around to nerfing it sooner or later, just like they do to everything else that becomes BIS and a must have set/trait/skill/whatever. Admittedly, they'll probably wait until sales of Horns of the Reach run their course.