Health Regen Racial Passives need to be removed

Strider__Roshin

I may be incorrect, but if I recall correctly there's only three: Khajiit, Nord, and Orc.

Orcs really don't need anything additional in my opinion, they have enough going for them. Adding crit resistance would be fitting for a Khajiit. Nords need something resource management related; whether it be an increase to stam regen or an unique mechanic (e.g. receives resources when damaged).

Why make these changes? Because the change done to Major Defile made health regen useless.

Asardes

Give Nords a 3-4% weapon damage passive instead of health recovery.

Strider__Roshin

Asardes wrote: »

Give Nords a 3-4% weapon damage passive instead of health recovery.

They really do need something. The main point I want to focus on is the removal of the health regen passive. Might as well add health regen to the first flavorful passive. It's that useless.

WrathOfInnos

Agree that these need to be replaced. IMO these are the 3 least desirable races due to a wasted passive with health regen. I disagree that crit resist would be a good change on khajiit though, racial passives need to work in both PVE and PVP (and the sneak passive is already heavily biased toward PVP). A max stamina bonus of 8-10% would help to define khajiit as the best burst stamina DPS, while leaving sustained damage advantage to Bosmer and Redguard.

Orcs could really use something more too, I'm just not sure what.

I like your idea of Nord getting some resource help, would make them more competitive tanks vs the META argonian. I do not think 3-4% weapon damage would be beneficial to nord, this would only increase damage output by about 2%, making it half the value of the Orc melee passive. Nords would still be weak for damage, and it would not benefit nord tanks at all.

ak_pvp

I'd personally like a damage type and resist per race tbh. Like Dummer. Along with one kind of stat regen, health/mag. Nothing game breaking but unique.

dodgehopper_ESO

I would add Imperial to this even though the Red Diamond passive is not regeneration per se it is in the same field. Red Diamond is a 1/10 chance to proc on a melee strike making it a less reliable cousin of Robust.

Asardes

Daus wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Give Nords a 3-4% weapon damage passive instead of health recovery.

They really do need something. The main point I want to focus on is the removal of the health regen passive. Might as well add health regen to the first flavorful passive. It's that useless.

Well, since they have the 6% damage mitigation passive already, giving them a stronger damage one would make them too unbalanced. Orc only has 4% to melee damage done and no resistance passive. I guess they could make that 5-6% weapon damage and still keep Nord pretty well balanced.

Qbiken

I like the HP-regen passive. It´s more or less the only resource of selfheal for WW-builds, since the heal the WW skilline gives you is more or less ***.....

dodgehopper_ESO

Qbiken wrote: »

I like the HP-regen passive. It´s more or less the only resource of selfheal for WW-builds, since the heal the WW skilline gives you is more or less ***.....

I like the concept of the HP Regen passive but I do understand why people outside of Kyne-PVP find it underwhelming.

leepalmer95

Its good if you build for it.

GaunterODim

I agree, the health regen passive is so useless and annoys because I know that if it wasnt there, there would be something else instead that would be more useful.
I could understand arguments that say to keep it on a tanking based class like nord for example because though I dont like health regen builds, they are still there.

BUT from the beginning on I never understood why a khajiit has such a passive when the rest of its kit has nothing to do with this at all. ( Maybe faster recovering from drugs, thats really the only thing that came to my mind when I thought on why it has that passive and I know thats a bad explanation)

Having a Max Stamina bonus added instead would be a good solution (for khajiits at least), but giving them 8 - 10% would definetely be too much, as their crit passive is pretty strong too.
I rather give them 3-5% Max Stam instead of health regen. When all the race passives were reworked the last time, I think khajiit even got 6% and it wouldve made them too strong/stronger than other classes in pve and I think it got gimped because of that, so maybe just 3% because come on, its a pure stam class that has no boost to stam, even woodelf has.

PS: Yes, red diamond sucks too.

Xvorg

No passive in this game is useless except by combustion on DK Ardent flame. That's useless.

Health regen builds have been around since some patches and there are a couple which are really strong

WrathOfInnos

@GaunterODim

Let's compare khajiit to Redguard to determine an acceptable stam bonus. Using typical set bonuses as a standard we can say that for a Redguard with 1400 stam regen (semi-typical example value), the 9% stam regen works out to about 129 or one typical set bonus. The 522 stam return every 5s is 105 stam/s or equivalent to 209 regen, which is 1.6 set bonuses. The 10% max stam for a build with 37k stamina works out to 3700 stamina or 3.4 standard set bonuses (1096 stamina typical on a set). This means that Redguard passives are worth 6 set bonuses total.

Khajiit currently get 10% stamina recovery, or approx 1.1 set bonuses. 8% crit works out to 2.1 set bonuses. The stealth bonus does not affect PVP so it is hard to quantify, and I am ignoring the health regen under the assumption that it will be replaced. In this case the last set bonus could be worth 2.8 set bonuses to work out to the same total of 6 as Redguard. Therefore 2.8 X 1096 = 3070 Max stamina, which with 37k stam is 8%.

Therefore if khajiit did not have health regen or stealth passives, 8% max stam in addition to the 10% stam regen and 8% crit would make them balanced against Redguard.

Since they do have stealth, I would be ok seeing this number bumped down to 6% if that's what the devs think is fair, but stealth is not useful in most PVE content, so they would still fall behind Redguard outside of PVP unless it was a full 8% to max stam.

Amdar_Godkiller

Asardes wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Give Nords a 3-4% weapon damage passive instead of health recovery.

They really do need something. The main point I want to focus on is the removal of the health regen passive. Might as well add health regen to the first flavorful passive. It's that useless.

Well, since they have the 6% damage mitigation passive already, giving them a stronger damage one would make them too unbalanced. Orc only has 4% to melee damage done and no resistance passive. I guess they could make that 5-6% weapon damage and still keep Nord pretty well balanced.

The 6%damage is the second most useless passive in the game, because it's worth less than half of 6% if used by someone who is actually heavy armor tanking. If it was 2k spell resistance and 2K physical resistance, then it would be worthwhile, but since it works as non-resistance based mitigation, it's literally more useless than reduced fall damage or increased swimming speed.

SodanTok

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

GaunterODim

Let's compare khajiit to Redguard to determine an acceptable stam bonus. Using typical set bonuses as a standard we can say that for a Redguard with 1400 stam regen (semi-typical example value), the 9% stam regen works out to about 129 or one typical set bonus. The 522 stam return every 5s is 105 stam/s or equivalent to 209 regen, which is 1.6 set bonuses. The 10% max stam for a build with 37k stamina works out to 3700 stamina or 3.4 standard set bonuses (1096 stamina typical on a set). This means that Redguard passives are worth 6 set bonuses total.

Khajiit currently get 10% stamina recovery, or approx 1.1 set bonuses. 8% crit works out to 2.1 set bonuses. The stealth bonus does not affect PVP so it is hard to quantify, and I am ignoring the health regen under the assumption that it will be replaced. In this case the last set bonus could be worth 2.8 set bonuses to work out to the same total of 6 as Redguard. Therefore 2.8 X 1096 = 3070 Max stamina, which with 37k stam is 8%.

Therefore if khajiit did not have health regen or stealth passives, 8% max stam in addition to the 10% stam regen and 8% crit would make them balanced against Redguard.

Since they do have stealth, I would be ok seeing this number bumped down to 6% if that's what the devs think is fair, but stealth is not useful in most PVE content, so they would still fall behind Redguard outside of PVP unless it was a full 8% to max stam.

You cant 'math' it out this way. Everything is valuble differently. Case in point health recovery that is far less valuable than supposed set value. Plus you are using many bad assumptions like 37k stamina or 1400 base regen in PVE. Stamina set bonuses are also worth less than damage set bonuses and these less than crit ones and crit ones less than penetration (usually, different builds find different value obv). If you use your math you will quickly figure out how to make best race ever by using much worse (in value of set bonuses) passives than redguard.

Also it is 792 stamina/5s on redguard.

Buffing damage of khajiit in any way (sustain, survivability is fine) will make them the best PVE race and every stam char will be using one.

WrathOfInnos

@SodanTok What do you mean "you can't math it out". The numbers are literally what make one better than the other. The values 37k and 1400 were taken directly from a guild member's stamDK parse resulting in a near-meta, approaching 40k solo parse. I can't say these are the exact values for everyone, but it is a very typical example that demonstrates how weak khajiit is compared to Redguard.

You are correct that the Redguard bonus is 792, I was mistakenly looking at the 2/3 value. This makes Redguard that much better, and really khajiit would need a 10% max stam bonus to be competitive. Maybe knock this down to 8% if keeping the semi-useless stealth bonus.

SodanTok

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@SodanTok What do you mean "you can't math it out". The numbers are literally what make one better than the other. The values 37k and 1400 were taken directly from a guild member's stamDK parse resulting in a near-meta, approaching 40k solo parse. I can't say these are the exact values for everyone, but it is a very typical example that demonstrates how weak khajiit is compared to Redguard.

You are correct that the Redguard bonus is 792, I was mistakenly looking at the 2/3 value. This makes Redguard that much better, and really khajiit would need a 10% max stam bonus to be competitive. Maybe knock this down to 8% if keeping the semi-useless stealth bonus.

What are you talking about. Khajiit as race are competitive right now. The sustain problems makes them less popular, but give them more damage and everybody at top tier will be using one.

What numbers. You just calculated set value of racial. Without considering what relative value they have to each other. The values of 37k and 1400 you took from already buffed stats. I have ~1500 stamina regen on my bosmer when my base stamina is like 800 I think. If you give me 10% more regen I wont get 150, I will get 80.

Mystrius_Archaion

I don't like any of the racial buffs. I just want to play the race I like the look of without any downside.
If they could redo racials to be non-combat that would be best, but that would be fairly hard while maintaining uniqueness a bit even if they're not very unique currently.

I would actually be in favor of removing all racials and compensating players by a slight buff across the board to something they already get in their classes, or like a passive in the mages guild and fighters guild lines that both together do all the things racials used to do. That way everybody could have all racial benefits and would use similar amounts of skill points to maintain balance maybe.

WrathOfInnos

@SodanTok The multipliers you are referring to would apply to both Khajiit and Redguard, so they cancel out. I don't have the % increases readily available, so it is definitely an approximate calculation. If it would help make the point that khajiit could use a buff, I would be glad to use real numbers from a specific build you have.

Onefrkncrzypope

Honestly to make a Nord tank awesome have the robust passive but for magica.

SodanTok

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@SodanTok The multipliers you are referring to would apply to both Khajiit and Redguard, so they cancel out. I don't have the % increases readily available, so it is definitely an approximate calculation. If it would help make the point that khajiit could use a buff, I would be glad to use real numbers from a specific build you have.

There is no need to discuss this further, because we would still crawl around the idea that you can equate racial passives to set bonuses. Which simply is no go. First not all type of set bonuses are equal to each other when it comes to damage (which is the only metric that really matters in PVE) and second since % have different values for different build.

But just to add to your example. I would assume no PVE build will be running any regen except in some cases dubious, so the regen on most builds is around 500-800. For stamina, most builds wont be running more than 3 I think (for example TFS + hunding is 2 stam pieces) so something around 31-34k.

And dont get me wrong, redguard is too good. But khajiit is not really lacking in damage in pve. The only problem of khajiit is the PVP presence (crit gets dimished dmg wise), stealth is useless outside of one specific class with one specific playstyle (stam nb ganking), health recovery is diminished by lack of interesting sources (except trollking) and vampire passive, sustain is low (tho how low is greatly overrrated, on my 2.5k regen bosmer, khajiit would have just 130 regen less)

Wreuntzylla

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Give Nords a 3-4% weapon damage passive instead of health recovery.

They really do need something. The main point I want to focus on is the removal of the health regen passive. Might as well add health regen to the first flavorful passive. It's that useless.

Well, since they have the 6% damage mitigation passive already, giving them a stronger damage one would make them too unbalanced. Orc only has 4% to melee damage done and no resistance passive. I guess they could make that 5-6% weapon damage and still keep Nord pretty well balanced.

The 6%damage is the second most useless passive in the game, because it's worth less than half of 6% if used by someone who is actually heavy armor tanking. If it was 2k spell resistance and 2K physical resistance, then it would be worthwhile, but since it works as non-resistance based mitigation, it's literally more useless than reduced fall damage or increased swimming speed.

The damage mitigation passive is no better. It works out that in most real cases, Nord 6% is something like 3% or so mitigation. There are threads going way back explaining why.

Tannus15

give nords Wrath

Wing

please no more crit resist, until mobs can crit its so dumb to have bonuses (let alone racial) that only work in pvp

the problem with most passives is the % idea of it, its crap until you stack it.

so they cannot make it good because if you stack it that would make it op, so its crap just in case.

if it was changed to be a flat amount (like 500 hp regen or more) then it would be decent all the time and immune from the power creep of % scaling.

one of the biggest issues this game has is % and it would be a lot better off if everything worked by providing flat amounts.

Supernatural

SodanTok wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@SodanTok What do you mean "you can't math it out". The numbers are literally what make one better than the other. The values 37k and 1400 were taken directly from a guild member's stamDK parse resulting in a near-meta, approaching 40k solo parse. I can't say these are the exact values for everyone, but it is a very typical example that demonstrates how weak khajiit is compared to Redguard.

You are correct that the Redguard bonus is 792, I was mistakenly looking at the 2/3 value. This makes Redguard that much better, and really khajiit would need a 10% max stam bonus to be competitive. Maybe knock this down to 8% if keeping the semi-useless stealth bonus.

What are you talking about. Khajiit as race are competitive right now. The sustain problems makes them less popular, but give them more damage and everybody at top tier will be using one.

What numbers. You just calculated set value of racial. Without considering what relative value they have to each other. The values of 37k and 1400 you took from already buffed stats. I have ~1500 stamina regen on my bosmer when my base stamina is like 800 I think. If you give me 10% more regen I wont get 150, I will get 80.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Khajiit is a dead race. In trials, Maelstrom, PvP, in pretty much every competitive content in the game. There is no content in which Khajiits are actually BiS.

Trials? Redguard is easily the way to go. Every top tier player knows that. Pretty much same DPS with a Khajiit (overnerfs to major force and shadow mundus saw to that) and simply way better stamina sustain. Yes, damage-wise Khajiits are definetely competitive, but overall not the best choice.

Maelstrom? Fights are so burst oriented that flat damage in the form of weapon damage and maximum stamina are more important than some extra weapon critical. But that is not the reason Khajiit is not preferred in vMA.

Resource Management. That is the reason Khajiit sees no competitive use in vMA any longer. Players that go for the highest of scores, (myself included) are fully aware of the fact that having Khajiit as their race will simply limit their performance. Why? Low sustain. Pre-Morrowind it was no problem really, sustaining was just way too easy. But now? It is brutal. One mistake can leave you without resources, and if you run out it is good game, unless of course you start taking sigils, do constant heavy attacks to sustain, or either use stamina recovery glyphs or dubious. All of these will decrease your score in their own way.

And that leaves PvP. There is no reason to run a Khajiit in PvP. Period. Not. A. Single. One. The Khajiit "strong point" (Critical chance and damage) is heavily mitigated in by shields, impenetrable and resistant. So that is one weak passive. Extra stealth damage? If you are not a nightblade, you cannot even make use of this. But even if you are, it will not help you in open combat. That makes it two weak passives. Stamina and health recovery? The former is ok, but overall outshined by wood elf's 21% and Redguard's Adrenaline Rush. The latter though? Ha, I do not think I need to make an analysis of this, it has been already explained in this very post how uselss this stat and how it will not help you in any way. And that makes it three weak passives.

So, if you think that overall Khajiit is competitive and does not buffing, then I am sorry, but you are fooling yourself.

Twohothardware

All the Stam races are unbalanced when compared to Redguard. It's dps is better than all the other races except Khajiit which has a narrow advantage and it's much harder to sustain on Khajiit. They nerf Stam recovery hard so that players are suppose to spec into more Stam recovery over damage and then have a race with a passive that returns the same amount of Stam regardless of your Stam Recovery.

I'm fine with Redguard staying the way they are but all the other races need buffs to make up for how much harder they are to sustain on.

Azurya

Daus wrote: »

I may be incorrect, but if I recall correctly there's only three: Khajiit, Nord, and Orc.

Orcs really don't need anything additional in my opinion, they have enough going for them. Adding crit resistance would be fitting for a Khajiit. Nords need something resource management related; whether it be an increase to stam regen or an unique mechanic (e.g. receives resources when damaged).

Why make these changes? Because the change done to Major Defile made health regen useless.

No more changes on demand!
And to be sure you could have done some research, not just firing from the hip! And nobody really wants this!
Why??
Because this week we change these passives and next weeks other passives?? No end here, and I like all of my builds the way they are (2 of them from the above mentioned!)

dodgehopper_ESO

Wing wrote: »

please no more crit resist, until mobs can crit its so dumb to have bonuses (let alone racial) that only work in pvp

the problem with most passives is the % idea of it, its crap until you stack it.

so they cannot make it good because if you stack it that would make it op, so its crap just in case.

if it was changed to be a flat amount (like 500 hp regen or more) then it would be decent all the time and immune from the power creep of % scaling.

one of the biggest issues this game has is % and it would be a lot better off if everything worked by providing flat amounts.

This is so true, and one of the many suggestions on the matter I've made.

WillhelmBlack

Daus wrote: »

I may be incorrect, but if I recall correctly there's only three: Khajiit, Nord, and Orc.

Orcs really don't need anything additional in my opinion, they have enough going for them. Adding crit resistance would be fitting for a Khajiit. Nords need something resource management related; whether it be an increase to stam regen or an unique mechanic (e.g. receives resources when damaged).

Why make these changes? Because the change done to Major Defile made health regen useless.

No it didn't it just fixed it.

Leave Orc and Nord alone, the health recovery suits them. Khajiit can have whatever, I'd pick 6% stamina.

Detector

NO.

Wreuntzylla

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

I may be incorrect, but if I recall correctly there's only three: Khajiit, Nord, and Orc.

Orcs really don't need anything additional in my opinion, they have enough going for them. Adding crit resistance would be fitting for a Khajiit. Nords need something resource management related; whether it be an increase to stam regen or an unique mechanic (e.g. receives resources when damaged).

Why make these changes? Because the change done to Major Defile made health regen useless.

No it didn't it just fixed it.

Leave Orc and Nord alone, the health recovery suits them. Khajiit can have whatever, I'd pick 6% stamina.

It's nice for a templar, allows you to self-heal less and purge more. I'm always amazed at how much damage can be purged.