Resto Ult VS Warden Trees

Valencer

All these defensive ultis should cost 150 ulti at a minimum so people cant just mindlessly spam them.

Just look at corrosive armour - that ulti gives you godmode for 10 seconds too but at least it costs 200 ulti so you actually have to think about when you use it or even save up ulti for it.

pieratsos

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

DeHei

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Mayrael

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

The "drawback" is that you resign of your presure made to your enemy by spending ultis on defending your self not on attacking him. It allows to reset the fight for the cost of loosing your offensive ultimate, good when ganked or attacked by more enemies than you expected. It gives you few seconds to respond. And when we are at class ults stronger than weapin ults... I think that templars could say a word or two on that... Plus NBs should be really quiet about ult costs and overladed skills

Mayrael

And about that "better times of pvp" I was there. You mean times when single dk emp could tank whole zerg without using LoS and even kill some folks? Or the times when sorcs could bolt from keep to keep and still have magicka to fight (I did that)? Or the times when you could one shot ppl with snipe (this was also one of my ways of spending time in cyro). Yeah... Hell of an example.

pieratsos

Mayrael wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

The "drawback" is that you resign of your presure made to your enemy by spending ultis on defending your self not on attacking him. It allows to reset the fight for the cost of loosing your offensive ultimate, good when ganked or attacked by more enemies than you expected. It gives you few seconds to respond. And when we are at class ults stronger than weapin ults... I think that templars could say a word or two on that... Plus NBs should be really quiet about ult costs and overladed skills

Drawbacks actually means drawbacks. Powerful ults but limited by their cost, stationary effects, cast time etc. Those are drawbacks. "Sacrificing" one global cooldown isnt a drawback. Thats like saying every ability in the game is balanced no matter what it does because you need a global cooldown to cast it.

You are not exactly sacrificing offense when you use those ults. For starters they give you offensive buffs to begin with which makes them potent on offense as well but most importantly they take care of ur defense because they are "you cant kill me" buttons which by definition means you are free to go ham on ur opponents.

Defensive ult does not mean not threatening on offense. Thats just misinformation. Those ults are not even used as purely defensive ults. Thats a fact. Just watch kodi's latest top 5 PVP videos. 3 out of 5 videos use resto/snb ult offensively. Ironically the other two didnt use them because they simply had no access to them not because they are not good.

Also, the fact that they happen to be great anti gank tools doesnt make them balanced. You cant just simply excuse everything in the game because of ganking. Thats literally the reason why PVP is bad. Because of implementing stupid things to counter other stupid things instead of actually addressing the problem.

pieratsos

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

pieratsos

Mayrael wrote: »

And about that "better times of pvp" I was there. You mean times when single dk emp could tank whole zerg without using LoS and even kill some folks? Or the times when sorcs could bolt from keep to keep and still have magicka to fight (I did that)? Or the times when you could one shot ppl with snipe (this was also one of my ways of spending time in cyro). Yeah... Hell of an example.

Bringing up specific issues to cover the whole picture doesnt really help you make your point. I am talking about the forest, not the tree.

I never said the game didnt have issues. It always had and it always will. But it always had one distinct difference compared to now. The core gameplay promoted skill. Mistakes were being punished and player skill actually mattered and it was a decisive factor.

Since TG the game is being dumbed down patch after patch after patch. Class balance is almost irrelevant and its not even the issue anymore. The issue is core mechanics that dumb down PVP to this stupid gameplay with one button wonder builds. Nothing gets punished, skill doesnt matter and its getting worse.

If u think this is better than what we had then i really dont know what to say. But rest assured, you are in the minority and thats because you are wrong.

Mayrael

pieratsos wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

The "drawback" is that you resign of your presure made to your enemy by spending ultis on defending your self not on attacking him. It allows to reset the fight for the cost of loosing your offensive ultimate, good when ganked or attacked by more enemies than you expected. It gives you few seconds to respond. And when we are at class ults stronger than weapin ults... I think that templars could say a word or two on that... Plus NBs should be really quiet about ult costs and overladed skills

Drawbacks actually means drawbacks. Powerful ults but limited by their cost, stationary effects, cast time etc. Those are drawbacks. "Sacrificing" one global cooldown isnt a drawback. Thats like saying every ability in the game is balanced no matter what it does because you need a global cooldown to cast it.

You are not exactly sacrificing offense when you use those ults. For starters they give you offensive buffs to begin with which makes them potent on offense as well but most importantly they take care of ur defense because they are "you cant kill me" buttons which by definition means you are free to go ham on ur opponents.

Defensive ult does not mean not threatening on offense. Thats just misinformation. Those ults are not even used as purely defensive ults. Thats a fact. Just watch kodi's latest top 5 PVP videos. 3 out of 5 videos use resto/snb ult offensively. Ironically the other two didnt use them because they simply had no access to them not because they are not good.

Also, the fact that they happen to be great anti gank tools doesnt make them balanced. You cant just simply excuse everything in the game because of ganking. Thats literally the reason why PVP is bad. Because of implementing stupid things to counter other stupid things instead of actually addressing the problem.

Um so what would you like it to do? Deal dmg to caster? What are drawbacks of Incap strike or dawnbreaker? What are drawbacks of ganking? When you presure someone with very high burst its very good defense also as someone whos left with 30% hp wont push you, while you can unload all youve got as youre enemy just tries to survive. Thats why ganking is so popular, easy kills with low risk. Not all want to play glass canons, some prefer more tactical game not just burst down or escape. Still cant see any valid argument why more defensive playstyle should be harder than offensive one.
Also resto ult is only "no death button" only when 1v1. When you have on you 2 or more decent dpses you will die anyway (unless youre tank, but then you wont kill them either).

pieratsos

Mayrael wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

The "drawback" is that you resign of your presure made to your enemy by spending ultis on defending your self not on attacking him. It allows to reset the fight for the cost of loosing your offensive ultimate, good when ganked or attacked by more enemies than you expected. It gives you few seconds to respond. And when we are at class ults stronger than weapin ults... I think that templars could say a word or two on that... Plus NBs should be really quiet about ult costs and overladed skills

Drawbacks actually means drawbacks. Powerful ults but limited by their cost, stationary effects, cast time etc. Those are drawbacks. "Sacrificing" one global cooldown isnt a drawback. Thats like saying every ability in the game is balanced no matter what it does because you need a global cooldown to cast it.

You are not exactly sacrificing offense when you use those ults. For starters they give you offensive buffs to begin with which makes them potent on offense as well but most importantly they take care of ur defense because they are "you cant kill me" buttons which by definition means you are free to go ham on ur opponents.

Defensive ult does not mean not threatening on offense. Thats just misinformation. Those ults are not even used as purely defensive ults. Thats a fact. Just watch kodi's latest top 5 PVP videos. 3 out of 5 videos use resto/snb ult offensively. Ironically the other two didnt use them because they simply had no access to them not because they are not good.

Also, the fact that they happen to be great anti gank tools doesnt make them balanced. You cant just simply excuse everything in the game because of ganking. Thats literally the reason why PVP is bad. Because of implementing stupid things to counter other stupid things instead of actually addressing the problem.

Um so what would you like it to do? Deal dmg to caster? What are drawbacks of Incap strike or dawnbreaker? What are drawbacks of ganking? When you presure someone with very high burst its very good defense also as someone whos left with 30% hp wont push you, while you can unload all youve got as youre enemy just tries to survive. Thats why ganking is so popular, easy kills with low risk. Not all want to play glass canons, some prefer more tactical game not just burst down or escape. Still cant see any valid argument why more defensive playstyle should be harder than offensive one.
Also resto ult is only "no death button" only when 1v1. When you have on you 2 or more decent dpses you will die anyway (unless youre tank, but then you wont kill them either).

I gave you examples of drawbacks. Go back and read again.

Just because you dont like NBs and ganking it doesnt mean resto ult is ok. If you have issues with NBs and ganking make a thread about it or just go in existing threads about it to express your opinion. There are many people who agree with you. But stop excusing every stupid mechanic because of ganking. Thats asinine and i told you its the reason why PVP is so bad.

Insinuating that without resto ult is impossible to play anything other than glass canon builds is a big fat lie. Resto ult wasnt always in the game.

Tactical game means actually thinking before using abilities. A cheap defensive "u cant kill me" button that u can cast every 20 seconds is the exact opposite of tactical. If you want tactical game then look at corrosive armor. Thats tactical. Not resto ult.

Yes, resto utl is a "u cant kill me" button in more than just 1v1. Not sure why you pretend that its not. I play with it. I know what it does. It gives almost 10k crit heals per second on top of major protection on top of you being free to do whatever the hell you want in the meantime. Ive had it outheal through everything when i was face first on the floor for 3-4 seconds without stamina getting a beating by 4-5 people. I was being rewarded for doing a mistake.

If you have 2 or more good players on you, you will indeed die anw. Not during resto ult but afterwards or before that but anw thats irrelevant. Not sure where the problem is when you die to good players. You want to 1vX good players now? Im sorry, thats not how it works.

DeHei

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

ToRelax

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

A Sorc building towards the class's strengths will be significantly more squishy than a Templar doing the same. If you decide to play a high damage Templar at the cost of defense, that's on you. Ask for changes to your class that will allow for more different playstyles, instead of crying over those classes that already have what you're after.

DeHei

ToRelax wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

A Sorc building towards the class's strengths will be significantly more squishy than a Templar doing the same. If you decide to play a high damage Templar at the cost of defense, that's on you. Ask for changes to your class that will allow for more different playstyles, instead of crying over those classes that already have what you're after.

Definition of the templarclass actually in PvP: A walking dummie in heavy armor and good selfheal!
That is exactly that, what templar are, when i go with META.. i need to jump in in meleerange in the hope to survive it.

I ask since 1 year for good changes to my mainclass, but i only see nerfs or changes from useless skills to similar useless ones like in our actually next update. Nothing what would really change anything...
When i would play META, its one of the most boring gameplays. I dont would be killable in 1vs1, but i just would be able to kill scrubs... If the solution just would be to reroll nightblades and sorcs, then you will see only this 2 classes finally in some years in PvP!

SanTii.92

DeHei wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

A Sorc building towards the class's strengths will be significantly more squishy than a Templar doing the same. If you decide to play a high damage Templar at the cost of defense, that's on you. Ask for changes to your class that will allow for more different playstyles, instead of crying over those classes that already have what you're after.

Definition of the templarclass actually in PvP: A walking dummie in heavy armor and good selfheal!
That is exactly that, what templar are, when i go with META.. i need to jump in in meleerange in the hope to survive it.

I ask since 1 year for good changes to my mainclass, but i only see nerfs or changes from useless skills to similar useless ones like in our actually next update. Nothing what would really change anything...
When i would play META, its one of the most boring gameplays. I dont would be killable in 1vs1, but i just would be able to kill scrubs... If the solution just would be to reroll nightblades and sorcs, then you will see only this 2 classes finally in some years in PvP!

What does this has anything to do with thread's topic.

pieratsos

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

They dont have the highest survivability in the game but I understand why you feel its this way since your build is hardcountered by builds with good mobility. Im not saying that those classes are perfect, shieldstacking is stupid and it should be removed so sorcs are the super mobile but very squishy class.

And yes NBs and sorcs have been generally on the top when it comes to solo open world PVP. But thats because of the nature of PVP and how it synergizes with those classes. Its not a class balance issue. Thats just how the classes are designed. If mobility and burst wasnt that important then sorcs and NB would be in a disadvantage compared to templar and DK. That doesnt mean that they should have burst heals or whatever to just turtle up and soak dmg like a DK or a templar for example.

Again, im not saying that the classes are perfect. There are issues with shieldstacking and class defining defensive abilities like scales being useless. But thats what they should fix. Not make all classes the same. The problem is that to get to that position where you can actually address those issues first you have to remove all those stupid abilities, mechanics that drastically affect the classes in a bunch of different ways so the class advantages/weaknesses start showing up.

Im playing with resto ult and im telling you. Its beyond broken on sorc and it gives you the illusion that the class has good healing and facetanking capabilities when that couldnt be further from the truth.

Joy_Division

ToRelax wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

A Sorc building towards the class's strengths will be significantly more squishy than a Templar doing the same. If you decide to play a high damage Templar at the cost of defense, that's on you. Ask for changes to your class that will allow for more different playstyles, instead of crying over those classes that already have what you're after.

Not that I want to be associated with the anti-sorc crowd here, but a sorc who builds towards her strength (max magicka) is stronger defensively since that is what their primary defense, shields, scales from

pieratsos

Joy_Division wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

A Sorc building towards the class's strengths will be significantly more squishy than a Templar doing the same. If you decide to play a high damage Templar at the cost of defense, that's on you. Ask for changes to your class that will allow for more different playstyles, instead of crying over those classes that already have what you're after.

Not that I want to be associated with the anti-sorc crowd here, but a sorc who builds towards her strength (max magicka) is stronger defensively since that is what their primary defense, shields, scales from

Whats the difference for templar? Doesnt breath of life scale with max magicka + spell dmg?

Waffennacht

I love how players think defensive ults are no skill but promote WB + Ult + Execute combos that kill in 2 GCDs (before you can break free)

To these players: defense = no skill, offense = skill

manny254

Resto ult in it's current form needs to cost 150 ult to resemble balanced. I would be fine however if they put the cost back to 100, but forced you to choose between major force and protection on each morph.

DeHei

SanTii.92 wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

A Sorc building towards the class's strengths will be significantly more squishy than a Templar doing the same. If you decide to play a high damage Templar at the cost of defense, that's on you. Ask for changes to your class that will allow for more different playstyles, instead of crying over those classes that already have what you're after.

Definition of the templarclass actually in PvP: A walking dummie in heavy armor and good selfheal!
That is exactly that, what templar are, when i go with META.. i need to jump in in meleerange in the hope to survive it.

I ask since 1 year for good changes to my mainclass, but i only see nerfs or changes from useless skills to similar useless ones like in our actually next update. Nothing what would really change anything...
When i would play META, its one of the most boring gameplays. I dont would be killable in 1vs1, but i just would be able to kill scrubs... If the solution just would be to reroll nightblades and sorcs, then you will see only this 2 classes finally in some years in PvP!

What does this has anything to do with thread's topic.

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

They dont have the highest survivability in the game but I understand why you feel its this way since your build is hardcountered by builds with good mobility. Im not saying that those classes are perfect, shieldstacking is stupid and it should be removed so sorcs are the super mobile but very squishy class.

And yes NBs and sorcs have been generally on the top when it comes to solo open world PVP. But thats because of the nature of PVP and how it synergizes with those classes. Its not a class balance issue. Thats just how the classes are designed. If mobility and burst wasnt that important then sorcs and NB would be in a disadvantage compared to templar and DK. That doesnt mean that they should have burst heals or whatever to just turtle up and soak dmg like a DK or a templar for example.

Again, im not saying that the classes are perfect. There are issues with shieldstacking and class defining defensive abilities like scales being useless. But thats what they should fix. Not make all classes the same. The problem is that to get to that position where you can actually address those issues first you have to remove all those stupid abilities, mechanics that drastically affect the classes in a bunch of different ways so the class advantages/weaknesses start showing up.

Im playing with resto ult and im telling you. Its beyond broken on sorc and it gives you the illusion that the class has good healing and facetanking capabilities when that couldnt be further from the truth.

Exactly this is the problem. This 2 classes are so *** strong.. so the others need to go more defensive to compensate it. Isnt a special think from my build. I cant handle very mobility targets, because they can easiliy dodge my aoe fields. That isnt a problem for me, but my class in general isnt able to defeat a good played magicka sorc or magicka nightblade. Really good played stamina nightblades are a problem too.. we need to spam our burstheal over seconds, not to die in a combo, which can be used from this class all 15sec without a special ultregbuild...
Now again to this thread. A lot of guys are thinking, that we dont need this cheap defending ultimates.. but its wrong in reason of that burstdamage this superior classes can do. Its allready not possible to handle extremly offensive builds without this ultimates. I am interested in good fights and that need just a bit balance. This could mean, that all ultimates need costs increase to use them more as a tactical element and not (again) like nightblades as 11th skill in your rotation!
This could also mean, that all classes need a similar ultimate like nightblades allready have for singletarget!

The other point, highest survivalbility in reason of cloak, which interupts some rotations and also let the nightblade for example dodge the purifying light damage. Sorcs can use teleport with ball of lightning (without a cooldown) and this is an escape and protect them 2 sec for every direct cast! This is just a joke!

olsborg

Try comparing nbs siphoning ulti (Soul Siphon) vs Wardens healing thicket, they do extremely similar things, but siphon costs 150 ulti vs (now) healing thickets 90 ulti. P2W for sure if you ask me.

DeHei

olsborg wrote: »

Try comparing nbs siphoning ulti (Soul Siphon) vs Wardens healing thicket, they do extremely similar things, but siphon costs 150 ulti vs (now) healing thickets 90 ulti. P2W for sure if you ask me.

Wardenult is far to strong for the costs... but it doesnt matter. The balance is allready ***..

SanTii.92

You could discuss class balance all day, but truth is there is mom clearly ovrrperforming, and they currently are pretty evenly balanced.

Now on topic, there is no doubt that the resto ult is far stronger than the PTS form of the trees one. Not only ticks for way more and provides major protection, that puts you on a state of literal invulnerability, but it also doesn't force you into a right space like the trees ones, on top of the offensive buff. Seriously, how is this even discussed. The lower cost is deserved.

Valencer

Waffennacht wrote: »

I love how players think defensive ults are no skill but promote WB + Ult + Execute combos that kill in 2 GCDs (before you can break free)

To these players: defense = no skill, offense = skill

It's 2017. Wrecking Blow got rightfully nerfed and that combo won't kill you unless youre at half health or have a terrible build.

Certainly doesn't justify the overabundance of cheap oh *** buttons the game currently provides

DeHei

Valencer wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I love how players think defensive ults are no skill but promote WB + Ult + Execute combos that kill in 2 GCDs (before you can break free)

To these players: defense = no skill, offense = skill

It's 2017. Wrecking Blow got rightfully nerfed and that combo won't kill you unless youre at half health or have a terrible build.

Certainly doesn't justify the overabundance of cheap oh *** buttons the game currently provides

I know player, which kill you with 1 incap and 1 will of assassination... great job, if that is the way to go..

Brutusmax1mus

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

125 ulti for a Breath of Life heal tick every 1s for 5s (up to 10 if solo) WITH MOBILE Major Protection AND Force is pretty stupid. One of the most over loaded ultimates in the game.

Looking at other ultimates that have Major Protection;

Consuming Darkness & Morphs - Major Protection for up to 6 players for 16 seconds in a stationary setting. 200 ulti cost. Only heals if user is low health and prompts a synergy. One more doubles Major prot on caster, other does pitiful damage. Can be Negated.

Sleet Storm & Morphs - Major Protection for caster and up to 5 players for 8 seconds in a mobile setting. 200 ulti cost. Deals pitiful damage. One morph stuns if targets are hit consecutively by the damage portion (6 nearest targets, will update if those 6 nearest targets change, but will not actively stun other targets), the other passively adds 8% Magicka to the caster for slotting. Cannot be Negated.

So we have two settings of Major Protection having twice as much ulti cost as live (100 on live, 125 when CWC goes live), with no Major Force or massive healing enabled. The only form of Major Protection that lasts longer is a stationary setting that either does pathetic damage or gives the caster some more mitigation, while still being vulnerable to negation.

Suggestions;

Option A -Increase cost of Light's Champion to 175 (leave Panacea and Lifebringer at 125). This gives an option to have buffs AND immense healing but at the cost of a longer pay out (have to build up extra ulti), OR a very solid defensive heal that saves some global cooldowns and Magicka.

Option B - Remove Major Protection completely from Light's Champion. Leave ulti cost at 125 for all morphs. This leaves Light's Champion as a strong "Oh [snip]" button with its redonkulous healing, while also adding a distinction of group utility vs selfish saved resources.

Option C -Change Major Protection and Force to Minor Protection and Force on Light's Champion. Leave ulti cost at 125 for all morphs. This brings down raw mitigation of the skill while still retaining a chunk of it, but also takes away from some of the offensive power of Major Force. This is the poorest balance option in my opinion, as Major Force is only 5% more CHD compared to Minor Force, and it also applies to Healing.

No offense but you should stick to pve theorycrafting

So no rebutal to the facts I pointed out? Anyone with eyes and understanding can see Resto Ult is very overloaded to other similar ultimates. It doesn't matter what kind of player you are to see that, as long as you have half a brain.

I'll come at you. Try casting the resto ultimate even you're being attacked and need it while in a full group. Good luck getting more than one of those heals. You're argument is based on solo or very scale, with 2 or 3 ppl.

Solo like duels or 1vx where you can guarantee you get all ticks, the resto ultimate is incredible. However, the more people you have around you, the more it becomes a support ultimate and is not over performing. If you're in a group of four, it heals 2 ppl twice, and two ppl once, over 6 seconds, you're essentially just supporting the group with buffs as if you need to be healing all 4 or more people you're going to need to supplement the resto ultimate with other healing skills.

Where as it can also heal one person in your group, do only 1 person gets the buffs!!! That's not op

[Edited for quote]

Joy_Division

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

A Sorc building towards the class's strengths will be significantly more squishy than a Templar doing the same. If you decide to play a high damage Templar at the cost of defense, that's on you. Ask for changes to your class that will allow for more different playstyles, instead of crying over those classes that already have what you're after.

Not that I want to be associated with the anti-sorc crowd here, but a sorc who builds towards her strength (max magicka) is stronger defensively since that is what their primary defense, shields, scales from

Whats the difference for templar? Doesnt breath of life scale with max magicka + spell dmg?

Nothing really. This is what I was replying to.

"A Sorc building towards the class's strengths will be significantly more squishy than a Templar doing the same

Do you think that sorcs are squishy stacking magicka?

pieratsos

DeHei wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

A Sorc building towards the class's strengths will be significantly more squishy than a Templar doing the same. If you decide to play a high damage Templar at the cost of defense, that's on you. Ask for changes to your class that will allow for more different playstyles, instead of crying over those classes that already have what you're after.

Definition of the templarclass actually in PvP: A walking dummie in heavy armor and good selfheal!
That is exactly that, what templar are, when i go with META.. i need to jump in in meleerange in the hope to survive it.

I ask since 1 year for good changes to my mainclass, but i only see nerfs or changes from useless skills to similar useless ones like in our actually next update. Nothing what would really change anything...
When i would play META, its one of the most boring gameplays. I dont would be killable in 1vs1, but i just would be able to kill scrubs... If the solution just would be to reroll nightblades and sorcs, then you will see only this 2 classes finally in some years in PvP!

What does this has anything to do with thread's topic.

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

They dont have the highest survivability in the game but I understand why you feel its this way since your build is hardcountered by builds with good mobility. Im not saying that those classes are perfect, shieldstacking is stupid and it should be removed so sorcs are the super mobile but very squishy class.

And yes NBs and sorcs have been generally on the top when it comes to solo open world PVP. But thats because of the nature of PVP and how it synergizes with those classes. Its not a class balance issue. Thats just how the classes are designed. If mobility and burst wasnt that important then sorcs and NB would be in a disadvantage compared to templar and DK. That doesnt mean that they should have burst heals or whatever to just turtle up and soak dmg like a DK or a templar for example.

Again, im not saying that the classes are perfect. There are issues with shieldstacking and class defining defensive abilities like scales being useless. But thats what they should fix. Not make all classes the same. The problem is that to get to that position where you can actually address those issues first you have to remove all those stupid abilities, mechanics that drastically affect the classes in a bunch of different ways so the class advantages/weaknesses start showing up.

Im playing with resto ult and im telling you. Its beyond broken on sorc and it gives you the illusion that the class has good healing and facetanking capabilities when that couldnt be further from the truth.

Exactly this is the problem. This 2 classes are so *** strong.. so the others need to go more defensive to compensate it. Isnt a special think from my build. I cant handle very mobility targets, because they can easiliy dodge my aoe fields. That isnt a problem for me, but my class in general isnt able to defeat a good played magicka sorc or magicka nightblade. Really good played stamina nightblades are a problem too.. we need to spam our burstheal over seconds, not to die in a combo, which can be used from this class all 15sec without a special ultregbuild...
Now again to this thread. A lot of guys are thinking, that we dont need this cheap defending ultimates.. but its wrong in reason of that burstdamage this superior classes can do. Its allready not possible to handle extremly offensive builds without this ultimates. I am interested in good fights and that need just a bit balance. This could mean, that all ultimates need costs increase to use them more as a tactical element and not (again) like nightblades as 11th skill in your rotation!
This could also mean, that all classes need a similar ultimate like nightblades allready have for singletarget!

The other point, highest survivalbility in reason of cloak, which interupts some rotations and also let the nightblade for example dodge the purifying light damage. Sorcs can use teleport with ball of lightning (without a cooldown) and this is an escape and protect them 2 sec for every direct cast! This is just a joke!

Yes it is mainly the build you chose to play. Templars are not forced into ground based AOE builds. That was ur choice. And meta templar builds can manage sorc burst fairly easy while also having more than enough dmg to take the shields down.

You are prety much asking for a complete redesign of classes because you dont want to change ur build.

pieratsos

Joy_Division wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Restorationstaffult should just give the caster major protection only Deleat the kritdamagebuff... then we hold a counter for massive burstdamage from especially nightblades and this ult isnt so strong anymore..
We need this cheap defensive ultimates to react fast against very strong and much cheaper offensive ultimates!

There was a time when we didnt have cheap defensive "u cant kill me" ults and PVP was a million times better. If they are going to be "you cant kill me" buttons they should be expensive or have major drawbacks. Thats what promotes skilled gameplay and reaction to what is actually happening. You know its expensive, you think twice before you use it and you make the most out it. When they are cheap they do the exact opposite. There is no thinking or reacting to offensive ults. You just pop them whenever you feel like it cause who cares. 20 seconds later they will be up again.

Yes maybe. But only nightblades have the offensive answer to this defensive ultimates against single targets. Sorcs can go offensiv too in reason of shieldstacking.
What we have as Templar, DK and Warden? Only warden have another ultimate, which works fine defensive. We dont have the balance for some classes... with increasing this defensive ultimstes we buff again this allready superior classes!
For me it looks like *** again. For example Templar dont have just 1 classultimate, which is really useful in all situations.. offensive i go with drawbreaker or soulstrike and defensive with restorationstaffult for PvP...

All classes need better singletarget ultimates like nightblades... only then i would really agree what you said..

Nightblades and sorcs have better burst single target potential because they are designed around burst. They should have more dmg because they lack other things. If you like playing with high single target burst then im sorry but you are playing the wrong class.

NBs and sorcs are the two classes mostly crutching on resto ult. There is a huge difference between playing with or without that ult. A sorc being pressured and almost dying isnt easy to recover. They have the worst self healing capabilities. They cant just heal from zero to full in 2 seconds. But resto ult can do exactly that for them. Taking away resto ult doesnt buff them because you cant heal their burst. If you are better than they are ull outheal it anw. But it is nerfing them hard because it makes it infinitely easier for you to kill them if you outplay them. Some times you are better of using resto ult as ur main ult. Thats how OP it is on sorc.

You are talking about class balance but its impossible to achieve class balance with such abilities/mechanics. Just look at stamDKs. Crutching on stupid mechanics because they have to, they become unkillable tanks and perceived as strong when in fact nothing they do is because of their class.

One of the biggest problems you described here. They have most burst potencial, but also have the highest survivalbility in game, because of good escaps and the reason, that for example the healingstaffskilltree is stronger then the templarskilltree. Everybody have access to it and at same time for example the healingeffects for templar got only nerfed. DKs and Templar atm need to play this tanky ***, because of no diversity. Try to play them offensiv without class escapes... the only thing you can do is for example using the vampire skillline.
But what is that? They should have simply same possibilities for burst, when the "burstclasses" have same options for survivalbility! Then we could start to speak "its a way to become a balanced game, especially in PvP"!!!

A Sorc building towards the class's strengths will be significantly more squishy than a Templar doing the same. If you decide to play a high damage Templar at the cost of defense, that's on you. Ask for changes to your class that will allow for more different playstyles, instead of crying over those classes that already have what you're after.

Not that I want to be associated with the anti-sorc crowd here, but a sorc who builds towards her strength (max magicka) is stronger defensively since that is what their primary defense, shields, scales from

Whats the difference for templar? Doesnt breath of life scale with max magicka + spell dmg?

Nothing really. This is what I was replying to.

"A Sorc building towards the class's strengths will be significantly more squishy than a Templar doing the same

Do you think that sorcs are squishy stacking magicka?

But he is not saying that sorcs are squishy stacking magicka. He is saying that templars are way more tanky. Arent they?

pieratsos

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

125 ulti for a Breath of Life heal tick every 1s for 5s (up to 10 if solo) WITH MOBILE Major Protection AND Force is pretty stupid. One of the most over loaded ultimates in the game.

Looking at other ultimates that have Major Protection;

Consuming Darkness & Morphs - Major Protection for up to 6 players for 16 seconds in a stationary setting. 200 ulti cost. Only heals if user is low health and prompts a synergy. One more doubles Major prot on caster, other does pitiful damage. Can be Negated.

Sleet Storm & Morphs - Major Protection for caster and up to 5 players for 8 seconds in a mobile setting. 200 ulti cost. Deals pitiful damage. One morph stuns if targets are hit consecutively by the damage portion (6 nearest targets, will update if those 6 nearest targets change, but will not actively stun other targets), the other passively adds 8% Magicka to the caster for slotting. Cannot be Negated.

So we have two settings of Major Protection having twice as much ulti cost as live (100 on live, 125 when CWC goes live), with no Major Force or massive healing enabled. The only form of Major Protection that lasts longer is a stationary setting that either does pathetic damage or gives the caster some more mitigation, while still being vulnerable to negation.

Suggestions;

Option A -Increase cost of Light's Champion to 175 (leave Panacea and Lifebringer at 125). This gives an option to have buffs AND immense healing but at the cost of a longer pay out (have to build up extra ulti), OR a very solid defensive heal that saves some global cooldowns and Magicka.

Option B - Remove Major Protection completely from Light's Champion. Leave ulti cost at 125 for all morphs. This leaves Light's Champion as a strong "Oh [snip]" button with its redonkulous healing, while also adding a distinction of group utility vs selfish saved resources.

Option C -Change Major Protection and Force to Minor Protection and Force on Light's Champion. Leave ulti cost at 125 for all morphs. This brings down raw mitigation of the skill while still retaining a chunk of it, but also takes away from some of the offensive power of Major Force. This is the poorest balance option in my opinion, as Major Force is only 5% more CHD compared to Minor Force, and it also applies to Healing.

No offense but you should stick to pve theorycrafting

So no rebutal to the facts I pointed out? Anyone with eyes and understanding can see Resto Ult is very overloaded to other similar ultimates. It doesn't matter what kind of player you are to see that, as long as you have half a brain.

I'll come at you. Try casting the resto ultimate even you're being attacked and need it while in a full group. Good luck getting more than one of those heals. You're argument is based on solo or very scale, with 2 or 3 ppl.

Solo like duels or 1vx where you can guarantee you get all ticks, the resto ultimate is incredible. However, the more people you have around you, the more it becomes a support ultimate and is not over performing. If you're in a group of four, it heals 2 ppl twice, and two ppl once, over 6 seconds, you're essentially just supporting the group with buffs as if you need to be healing all 4 or more people you're going to need to supplement the resto ultimate with other healing skills.

Where as it can also heal one person in your group, do only 1 person gets the buffs!!! That's not op

[Edited for quote]

Thats like trying to take down zergs with single target abilities and then complaining why you cant kill zergs and blame the abilities you are using.

Abilities are not considered OP only when they are overperforming in every aspect of the game. That would mean that all abilities are balanced.