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Mist Form...
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Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Mist form is not a get out of jain free card rofl. It a skill that allows magplars and magdks to line of sight and string out enemies. If your spamming mist form, youll die, the resource kill is horrendous on it. Also you can regen magic through mist, but lets think about that. It gives 120 per second...thats *** stupid. So over 4 seconds of mist form im negating 480 cost to mist form...wait it gets better, 900 cost for channeled focus. In order to get the cost back for one channeled focus, you need to mist form twice and wait 8 seconds. Its miserable. You cast channeled fosuc and immediatly go into mist form, after one mist form you have spent more magic than you would have if you just casted mist form. Its *** to say that as if its a benefit.
Great lets now talk about that magplar/ magdk supposed survivability.
Have you ever fought a magplar or magdk that has specced max damage? As in three damage sets, trying to only mitigate danage through skills? Its bad...the damage is on par with magsorc/magblade/magden or ANY stamina toon. But they are effectively canon foder. Even with "supposedly op mist form". They drop like a sack of potatoes from a 50 story building: **PLOP**.
Their defense is horrid compared to the other three classes. The biggest reason, is shield are awesome, and magplar/ magdk dont really get that great use out of them. I mean sure we can use them, which would be better than honor the dead for survival, but without the tools the other classes get they are weak.
Sorc gets three shields, plus magic increase passives and skills that give extra magic, as well as a limited potential for necropotence (although they have to be petsorc...which is an odd playstyle and kinda lower damage)
Nighblades are in the same boat as magplar/magdk but they get an amazing set of escapes skills. Cloak, magic version of shuffle, and the stupid teleport pet. Making the nightblade very elusive and bursty from stealth
Wardens are the kings of max magic and get optimal use of annulment, with their awesome heals make for a toon with almost as much shield as a magsorc but with much more reliable and on demand healing. Not to mention the best uptime on minor protection, thats not tied into an opposing morph for magic return, allowing them less built in magic regen.
Magplar has honor the dead, which in itself is the most desireable on demand heal available. But in order to make optimal use of the heal, we need to make sure we mitigate as much damage as possible. Not doing that in three damage sets are you? No...no you are not, we do use mistform in order to get around a tree and heal up, slap down our defenseive rune and that WEAK ASS HOT THAT IS PURGE (albeit a great skill...but once again we have to be taking damage to use it, otherwise its wasted magic).
Magdks are about the same as magplar in playstlye, apply dots then spam the spammable skill. Less reliable self heals than magplar, no purge, and rediculous way to get major mending (diffucult to use) magdk and magplar also need to make use of more stamina, due to needing to block more for mitigation to make better use of our heals. Its why many magdk use shield on mainbar...cause their defense is accually really horrible.
Slap on a defensive set or two, or heavy armor and we can now passively mitigate damage as to allow us to DPS more...but our DPS is now reletively wraker than any other class due to not being able to run the damage sets.
Dont get me wrong, i jnow better than most pvpers how to build a proper magplar. My passive mitigation is on point, but ill never be able to kill a properly built and played magsorc or magblade or magden...its not going to happen. Even though he may kill me. If i try to drop just a SLIGHT amount of defebse for damage...i still am at a damage dissadvantage and now at MUCH more of a defense dissadvantage than i was.
Mist form is the one ability that allows us to reset a fight. And even then you cant use it in a duel as you dont LOS in duels...wasted slot. I have two builds i swap between in cyrodil. One is for massive magic damage, the other is for sustained damage and nice passive mitigation.
My max damage setup feels like complete and utter *** when i come across any competant player, i mean sure if i catch him off guard i can pump into him 30k damage in two seconds, but if he cloaks, bubbles, or absorbs and turns on my toon im dead. Theres no amount of mist forming around trees that will save me. I cant imagine tryin to take the build into a sweep spam bar setup, id get wrecked by any other player before my second sweeps could hit. If i want to survive anything i swap to two defense sets at a VERY large hit to my damage.
My point is, zenimax has magic templar and magic DK at severe passive mitigation dissadvantages. Other classes have to so friggin easy. Mist form is NOT that great...id take cloak, streak, or ice fortress and massive magic pools anyday...over mistform and my two defense sets...
Well said!!
100% agree with every single thing you said...
I play a Magplar as well, and same as you, I have found my optimal setup to be one with 2 Defensive Sets and 1 Offensive...
Every build I've tried with 2 or 3 Offensive sets has ultimately proven itself to be suboptimal and just too d@m squishy; same as you, its great when you catch someone off guard and can pump them full of damage, but if they survive your alpha attack and fight back, you die...period.
Elusive Mist is the only thing we can access that can even remotely get us out of trouble; if that is tampered with we all would have no other option but to turn into Heavy Armor wearing, block-casting, Healbots (and that's something I absolutely refuse to do)...
Just last week ive started playing around with a dark flare gank build, and i have to say its wicked fun, way more challenging than Nbs ganking, but very satisfying.
On templars needing multiple defensive sets, i simply cant agree. For the past 2 years or so i almost always used mostly offensive sets, with some sustain thrown. The way i look at it, if im outnumbered and run a very defensive setup im just delaying the inevitable death. By having strong offense at least i can take some ppl down with me. Best feeling when you run into a bunch of ppl expecting you to turtle up, and instead turn around and burst them down.
But back on topic, i agree that Mist form is fine as is, barring a few bugs. It has great benefits /drawbacks. Risk vs reward, just How it should be.0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Mist form isn't that ressource drain.
You can still have your constitution passive procing and have some set like desert rose procing.
Pretty niche case your talking about here.
Even in your cited case, the Mist Form user is still losing resources and doing no damage.
The only part of Mist Form that I think is a bit too strong is the 75% damage reduction. Combined with the vampire passive when near death the damage reduction while low on health is a bit too much. I would reduce the DR to 50% if I had my way.
So that you would negate more damage by simply blocking without shutting healing and all your active skills and mag regen down?
Your preaching to the choir here, but I'll point out that blocking slows you, not speeds you up, does not make you immune to snares or immobilizations (bugs aside, and gap closers aside), and shuts down your stamina regeneration.
I don't think its even a fair comparison.
So make everything same same?
Being able to heal and deal damage vs snare "immunity" and mE without sprint seems fair to me.
Not to mention that you can use both. It's not like choosing either/or on your bars, right?
Look, all I am saying is that Mist Form gives you 75%-84% damage reduction (can't be penetrated), on top of whatever mitigation you already have. And you don't have to build for it at all. I think an equivalent blocking mitigation would require some pretty heavy investments in your build.
Again, I say it should be left alone for the most part, but the 75% DR seems a bit high.0 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The 75% damage reduction does seem high, but I think it is either affected by battle spirit or just broken. There has been many times I have been in mist form with major protection as well and still able to take damage and die. That's with 105% damage reduction and 30k resists.
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krathos✭✭✭✭✭The 75% damage reduction does seem high, but I think it is either affected by battle spirit or just broken. There has been many times I have been in mist form with major protection as well and still able to take damage and die. That's with 105% damage reduction and 30k resists.
Oblivion damage goes through mistform like all other forms of mitigation.Flapjack Palmdale
<ANIMOSITY>
Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight2 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The 75% damage reduction does seem high, but I think it is either affected by battle spirit or just broken. There has been many times I have been in mist form with major protection as well and still able to take damage and die. That's with 105% damage reduction and 30k resists.
Damage reduction is multiplicative...DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU2 -
WillhelmBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It needs a massive nerf. It should cost you more to enter it and lose health whilst in it.PC EU0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Mist form isn't that ressource drain.
You can still have your constitution passive procing and have some set like desert rose procing.
Pretty niche case your talking about here.
Even in your cited case, the Mist Form user is still losing resources and doing no damage.
The only part of Mist Form that I think is a bit too strong is the 75% damage reduction. Combined with the vampire passive when near death the damage reduction while low on health is a bit too much. I would reduce the DR to 50% if I had my way.
So that you would negate more damage by simply blocking without shutting healing and all your active skills and mag regen down?
Your preaching to the choir here, but I'll point out that blocking slows you, not speeds you up, does not make you immune to snares or immobilizations (bugs aside, and gap closers aside), and shuts down your stamina regeneration.
I don't think its even a fair comparison.
So make everything same same?
Being able to heal and deal damage vs snare "immunity" and mE without sprint seems fair to me.
Not to mention that you can use both. It's not like choosing either/or on your bars, right?
Look, all I am saying is that Mist Form gives you 75%-84% damage reduction (can't be penetrated), on top of whatever mitigation you already have. And you don't have to build for it at all. I think an equivalent blocking mitigation would require some pretty heavy investments in your build.
Again, I say it should be left alone for the most part, but the 75% DR seems a bit high.
I'm not quite sure about the math, but doesn't a tooltip like "50% dmg reduction" always apply "on top of whatever mitigation you already have.", so blocking should also mitigate 50%+ of what you would recieve after mitigation is counted in.
What investment blocking requires to reach 75% mitigation: Slotting SnB, putting two points into sword and board passive and you are already at 70% mitigation. Add 2 points for iron skin (DK) and you are at 80%. Or am I completely wrong here?
While blocking/ mist forming you shut down regeneration of the specific resource but not resource return via e.g. constitution or some sets. Sure, on a non DK you might miss out 5% DR but you still can be healed and use some skills. Nothing wrong here.
I guess we have to agree to disagree here.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on October 15, 2017 3:41PM0 -
Vynn✭✭✭WillhelmBlack wrote: »It needs a massive nerf. It should cost you more to enter it and lose health whilst in it.
I'll take ways to nerf an ability into extinction for $100 Alex.
It already costs over 4k magicka vamp stage 4 in 5 light. And losing health? It's a survival ability. Might as well take away stamina players ability to dodge roll.4 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Mist form isn't that ressource drain.
You can still have your constitution passive procing and have some set like desert rose procing.
Pretty niche case your talking about here.
Even in your cited case, the Mist Form user is still losing resources and doing no damage.
The only part of Mist Form that I think is a bit too strong is the 75% damage reduction. Combined with the vampire passive when near death the damage reduction while low on health is a bit too much. I would reduce the DR to 50% if I had my way.
So that you would negate more damage by simply blocking without shutting healing and all your active skills and mag regen down?
Your preaching to the choir here, but I'll point out that blocking slows you, not speeds you up, does not make you immune to snares or immobilizations (bugs aside, and gap closers aside), and shuts down your stamina regeneration.
I don't think its even a fair comparison.
So make everything same same?
Being able to heal and deal damage vs snare "immunity" and mE without sprint seems fair to me.
Not to mention that you can use both. It's not like choosing either/or on your bars, right?
Look, all I am saying is that Mist Form gives you 75%-84% damage reduction (can't be penetrated), on top of whatever mitigation you already have. And you don't have to build for it at all. I think an equivalent blocking mitigation would require some pretty heavy investments in your build.
Again, I say it should be left alone for the most part, but the 75% DR seems a bit high.
I'm not quite sure about the math, but doesn't a tooltip like "50% dmg reduction" always apply "on top of whatever mitigation you already have.", so blocking should also mitigate 50%+ of what you would recieve after mitigation is counted in.
What investment blocking requires to reach 75% mitigation: Slotting SnB, putting two points into sword and board passive and you are already at 70% mitigation. Add 2 points for iron skin (DK) and you are at 80%. Or am I completely wrong here?
While blocking/ mist forming you shut down regeneration of the specific resource but not resource return via e.g. constitution or some sets. Sure, on a non DK you might miss out 5% DR but you still can be healed and use some skills. Nothing wrong here.
I guess we have to agree to disagree here.
It's multiplicative. So blocking plus all passives in S+B will get you up to 69% against projectiles and 63% against melee. Multiply that with whatever mitigation your armour and other passives are supplying, so if it was at 50% it would be 1-(.5*.31)= 84.5% DR for a invested tank build (against ranged in my calculation). Mist form provides that for all builds at it's lowest health scenario.
If it was additive we would all be running around with 125% mitigation with just Reinforced Heavy Armour and Mist Form.
Edited by danno8 on October 15, 2017 4:26PM0 -
WillhelmBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WillhelmBlack wrote: »It needs a massive nerf. It should cost you more to enter it and lose health whilst in it.
I'll take ways to nerf an ability into extinction for $100 Alex.
It already costs over 4k magicka vamp stage 4 in 5 light. And losing health? It's a survival ability. Might as well take away stamina players ability to dodge roll.
It's a repositioning ability that mitigates 75% of incoming damage and a Templar can infinitely sustain the cost of it.PC EU0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WillhelmBlack wrote: »WillhelmBlack wrote: »It needs a massive nerf. It should cost you more to enter it and lose health whilst in it.
I'll take ways to nerf an ability into extinction for $100 Alex.
It already costs over 4k magicka vamp stage 4 in 5 light. And losing health? It's a survival ability. Might as well take away stamina players ability to dodge roll.
It's a repositioning ability that mitigates 75% of incoming damage and a Templar can infinitely sustain the cost of it.
How's that? Rune will give you 240/s magicka and costs around 800-1000 magicka to cast.
Mist form lasts for 3 seconds. In those 3 seconds you will have regained 720 magicka from Rune. Does Mist form cost 720 magicka?
Didn't think so.
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Vynn✭✭✭WillhelmBlack wrote: »WillhelmBlack wrote: »It needs a massive nerf. It should cost you more to enter it and lose health whilst in it.
I'll take ways to nerf an ability into extinction for $100 Alex.
It already costs over 4k magicka vamp stage 4 in 5 light. And losing health? It's a survival ability. Might as well take away stamina players ability to dodge roll.
It's a repositioning ability that mitigates 75% of incoming damage and a Templar can infinitely sustain the cost of it.
How's that? Rune will give you 240/s magicka and costs around 800-1000 magicka to cast.
Mist form lasts for 3 seconds. In those 3 seconds you will have regained 720 magicka from Rune. Does Mist form cost 720 magicka?
Didn't think so.
And even if it was sustainable indefinitely, which it isnt. What else would the templar be doing in mist form? Oh right, nothing.2 -
Crusades✭✭
Nah I still die in mist form all the time, leave it as is or buff it, no nerfs needed.Edited by Crusades on October 15, 2017 5:16PM0 -
Asgari✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Mist form needs the some sort of cooldown or the same effect as steak where the cost increases if it's used in quick succession.
A bit ridiculous how players can use 10 mist forms in a row...
It's worse you can't regen magicka and percentage based damage like an execute doesn't get reduced properlyFormerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
Princess Asgari | Sorc
Asgari | NB
-Asgari | Stamplar
Ariana Kishi | DK | True Liberator of Haderus
Banner Down!
No Mercy
Youtube: Asgari0 -
Savos_Saren✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The only two groups that would truly suffer from a Mist Form nerf are magPlars and magDKs. If you want to call for a nerf- you're effectively ruining any magicka-based form of expedition for those two classes.
Coincidentally, those two classes are also the weakest in PVP right now.Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.
PC NA AD
Savos Saren1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WillhelmBlack wrote: »WillhelmBlack wrote: »It needs a massive nerf. It should cost you more to enter it and lose health whilst in it.
I'll take ways to nerf an ability into extinction for $100 Alex.
It already costs over 4k magicka vamp stage 4 in 5 light. And losing health? It's a survival ability. Might as well take away stamina players ability to dodge roll.
It's a repositioning ability that mitigates 75% of incoming damage and a Templar can infinitely sustain the cost of it.
How's that? Rune will give you 240/s magicka and costs around 800-1000 magicka to cast.
Mist form lasts for 3 seconds. In those 3 seconds you will have regained 720 magicka from Rune. Does Mist form cost 720 magicka?
Didn't think so.
It's 4 seconds, I believe. Ofc if a Templar is "spamming" Mistform to stay alive, chance are they're casting heals inbetween and maybe not letting it run for the whole 4 seconds on every cast.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Yngol✭✭✭Instead of nerfing mist form, how about fixing it? You can still get cc'd and snared in mist form (all warden cc'd ignore mist form's cc and stun immunity for instance)1
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Tormy✭✭✭Nothing wrong with mist form except for still being snared constantly while in mist form...2
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Whoever thinks this ability is OP doesn't run it.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WillhelmBlack wrote: »WillhelmBlack wrote: »It needs a massive nerf. It should cost you more to enter it and lose health whilst in it.
I'll take ways to nerf an ability into extinction for $100 Alex.
It already costs over 4k magicka vamp stage 4 in 5 light. And losing health? It's a survival ability. Might as well take away stamina players ability to dodge roll.
It's a repositioning ability that mitigates 75% of incoming damage and a Templar can infinitely sustain the cost of it.
How's that? Rune will give you 240/s magicka and costs around 800-1000 magicka to cast.
Mist form lasts for 3 seconds. In those 3 seconds you will have regained 720 magicka from Rune. Does Mist form cost 720 magicka?
Didn't think so.
It's 4 seconds, I believe. Ofc if a Templar is "spamming" Mistform to stay alive, chance are they're casting heals inbetween and maybe not letting it run for the whole 4 seconds on every cast.
You are right it's 4 seconds not 3. So you get 960 magicka.
A Templar spamming BoL and Mist Form is a soon to be dead Templar unless he has a whole pile of buddies to help them out.0 -
grannas211✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just wish they would give Magplar and Mag DK an alternative. I'm sick of being a vampire.4 -
WillhelmBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Whoever thinks this ability is OP doesn't run it.
I've used it a ton in the past, one of my chars still uses it, it's overpowered when used in a certain ways.
Why should you be able to Mist Form straight into a keep through a breach, straight up the stairs and place oils up top?
Why should you be able to pull players to wherever your group is waiting for an easy ambush, for virtually no cost and where your class wouldn't be able to do otherwise?WillhelmBlack wrote: »WillhelmBlack wrote: »It needs a massive nerf. It should cost you more to enter it and lose health whilst in it.
I'll take ways to nerf an ability into extinction for $100 Alex.
It already costs over 4k magicka vamp stage 4 in 5 light. And losing health? It's a survival ability. Might as well take away stamina players ability to dodge roll.
It's a repositioning ability that mitigates 75% of incoming damage and a Templar can infinitely sustain the cost of it.
How's that? Rune will give you 240/s magicka and costs around 800-1000 magicka to cast.
Mist form lasts for 3 seconds. In those 3 seconds you will have regained 720 magicka from Rune. Does Mist form cost 720 magicka?
Didn't think so.
Desert Rose, Engine Guardian and various other sets all can give you Magicka back in Mist Form. I know this, I use such sets.
I'm not saying one is able to infinitely sustain by spamming it back to back. I'm saying a Templar can use it wisely paired with S&B ulti and just infinitely sustain whilst doing various other things at the same time. I also know this, I have done it myself.PC EU0 -
Baconlad✭✭✭✭✭
✭What various other things? Rofl... healspammin heavy attacking for resources? Breh your not doing that in all offensive sets. You will die. Maybe not against one player. But add in another if your to that point of shield ulting and mistform sustaining and heavy attacking for more mist forming and heals, ur ded...
Before they nerf mist form, magplar needs a passive mitigation tool, related to our "house".
We have minor protection...mkay, that decent...ish, but if we take that, we lose our 480 magic from channeled focus, and thats a dumb tradeoff.
We have a healing ult...mkay, that we cant do anything while its up.
We have major (enemies deal 30% less damage while effected) through nova...but the skill costs 240 ultimate and we get more mitigation through shield ult, with better up time.
We have weak shields...maybe the weakest alongside magdk, our heal only helps if weve already taken damage...meaning we have to let our health bar hit a certain level before we cast...dangerous...
We have no class escape, because our house is supposed to be so uber...but rofl...700 magic damage tooltip on ritual and roughly the same on heals...every two seconds...thats not saving you from ***.
Atleast we have a purge, magdk cant say that...i would take cloak, shields, streak, crystal shield anyday over purge though...alongside all those classes getting optimal use of max damage sets...
A reason why so many templar are only build for heal tanking...cause its all we can do effectively. I laugh my ass off time a templar charges in and sweeps...cause i know what going to happen to him...hes going to die, because he most likely tried to build his toon for effective DPS...in other words he tried to build like a magsorc or magblade, and is going to be punished by me for it. Magplar are so weak, when i get a kill on a competant player, i get "congratulations for killing me" whispers. Players are so surprised that they lost a fight to a magplar that they feel the urge to accually congratulate me...it happens atleast 5 times a week. No ***, i cant tell you how many buds ive made just because its such a rare thing to see a magplar accually kill anything...and you want to take our 1vX tools that we rely on? Why? Are magplars not allowed to 1vX? What about magsorcs? Do you call for nerf on their shields or streak? Cloak nerfs? What about warden?1 -
there is a need to reduce the mitigation of damage from 75% to 30%
it must serve to give mobility to classes that do not have it , not to tank or troll enemies for 5 minutesEdited by melloni_aleb16_ESO on October 16, 2017 11:58AMDC|EP|AD EU .:. Claymore - all classes DK/Sorc/Nb/templar .: Retired :.
DC NA server with 400 ping - DKs Vraccàs
Philosophy of the poor .: "What you cannot beat ..zerg him " :.0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭melloni_aleb16_ESO wrote: »there is a need to reduce the mitigation of damage from 75% to 30%
it must serve to give mobility to classes that do not have it , not to tank or troll enemies for 5 minutes
The mobility it does provide is nowhere near enough to make it worthwhile then. You'd lose resources, be unable to defend, still susceptible to some CCs and can't even sprint.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mist form needs the some sort of cooldown or the same effect as steak where the cost increases if it's used in quick succession.
A bit ridiculous how players can use 10 mist forms in a row...
FYI, none of our skills have CDs. This is not that kind of game. Mist form also has the effect of ceasing magicka regen though someone has the option of pushing cost reduction so they can use it more times in a row.
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soll✭✭✭
EU PC
I like to heal
Triggered Tryhards/ HighRisk
EP – Sollencia
AD – Sollencia Overdoseandreasranasen wrote: »When you've invested time and money into a company, you have the right to be upset over changes that will negatively affect your experience and gameplay.3 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭melloni_aleb16_ESO wrote: »there is a need to reduce the mitigation of damage from 75% to 30%
it must serve to give mobility to classes that do not have it , not to tank or troll enemies for 5 minutes
The mobility it does provide is nowhere near enough to make it worthwhile then. You'd lose resources, be unable to defend, still susceptible to some CCs and can't even sprint.
And also it's not intended to be a mobility spell. It's a snare removal utility that helps give squishy builds mitigation without using block.
If you use it expecting to move like a sorc with streak, a bow backbar Stam build, or a NB using cloak, you aren't using the spell right.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am trying to figure out of all the things in the game, how Mist Form garners the attention for a nerf call.3