Clever alchemist change requires you to be in combat for it to proc what!!

BruhItsOver9000

After taking a break from eso, i felt like playing it again so i went on the forums to check if the game changed and after reading OP's post, i don't feel like playing it anymore. If they're trying to nerf the assassin playstyle then this game is not for me.

Jade1986

BruhItsOver9000 wrote: »

After taking a break from eso, i felt like playing it again so i went on the forums to check if the game changed and after reading OP's post, i don't feel like playing it anymore. If they're trying to nerf the assassin playstyle then this game is not for me.

They are downright trying to destroy it. Allowing add ons to detect attack from stealth? check. Nerf critical damage of snipe ? Check. Nerfing CA without actually addressing the problem, check.

Zvorgin

I thought Sorcs were a salty bunch, the nightblades take the cake. These are positive changes for PvP.

yodased

Mazbt wrote: »

My mouth is dry after all that salt. wow. Also had no idea alchemist was being used like this (swapping gear after drinking the pot). Did someone spill the beans and told them or did a dev discover the exploit while playing?

KingYogi415

Thogard wrote: »

The issue is some people on PC were using addons to rapidly equip clever alchemist, get the proc, and then unequip the whole set and replace with something like Spriggans or Hundings before attacking.

The combat requirement prevents people from changing their gear after getting the proc.

I personally would prefer that they make it so that procing clever alchemist PUTS you in combat... it would have the same effect at preventing gankers with addons... but the “in combat” system is already buggy enough as is and I doubt they could pull that off.

I run CA and I will not be affected by this.

An entire set ruined due to cheaters.

THANKS PC!

TheDoomsdayMonster

LadyLavina wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Jake1576 wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Should just make CA "when you take damage or apply damage, increase WD/SD by..." now.

Let the decon begin.

Yeah I run a bow gank build it's already hard enough to use the bow cause it's so under powered but I always had clever alchemist to look forward to make up for the lack the bow does before I would hit my target now your forced to confront your target as a stamina nightblade to get your damage increase nightblade are already squishy as it is we don't like to confront anyone nightblades like to burst people down then move to the next

Translation:

Us Stamina Nightblades are cowards who only want fight unsuspecting opponents who we can (hopefully) burst down before they can fight back...

lol what a troll, i gather you've been ganked by a stamblade or two?

I hit a nerve...didn't I?

TheDoomsdayMonster

Enslaved wrote: »

Unsuspecting opponents? In PvP? Leave Cyrodiil and never return.

Yeah...unsuspecting.

Sorry, I don't have Miat's warning me of danger in advance of it happening like you do...

I play on ps4 which is free from the cheats that you are used to...

geonsocal

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Unsuspecting opponents? In PvP? Leave Cyrodiil and never return.

Yeah...unsuspecting.

Sorry, I don't have Miat's warning me of danger in advance of it happening like you do...

I play on ps4 which is free from the cheats that you are used to...

@TheDoomsdayMonster - serious biz...when's the last time you've been ganked?

I have 10 different characters...1 (a mag sorc) wears 7 light - even he - on a horse - is extremely difficult to gank (granted he wears the impregnable armor set)...

I didn't really start following patch notes until about a year ago (been playing for a couple of years now: ps4/na azura's star>scourge>vivec)...no question zos has been actively dampening the attacks of players from stealth...

although there has been some really successful gank builds involving all the classes - by far nightblades and the art of ganking has have had some serious brakes applied to their playstyle...

besides the point i play a mag/stam version of each class - it generally irks me (pvp wise) that the whole "thrill" of being ganked has been removed from pvp...

it's to the point i can ride a mount right past 90% of the folks out there ganking without even needing to dismount...

I understand it's a natural compulsion for folks to feel safe - even in a video game...

other than IC getting easier access - sure wish zos would bring back the prospect of being ganked - and, ease up on all the turtling up...

TheDoomsdayMonster

geonsocal wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Unsuspecting opponents? In PvP? Leave Cyrodiil and never return.

Yeah...unsuspecting.

Sorry, I don't have Miat's warning me of danger in advance of it happening like you do...

I play on ps4 which is free from the cheats that you are used to...

@TheDoomsdayMonster - serious biz...when's the last time you've been ganked?

I have 10 different characters...1 (a mag sorc) wears 7 light - even he - on a horse - is extremely difficult to gank (granted he wears the impregnable armor set)...

I didn't really start following patch notes until about a year ago (been playing for a couple of years now: ps4/na azura's star>scourge>vivec)...no question zos has been actively dampening the attacks of players from stealth...

although there has been some really successful gank builds involving all the classes - by far nightblades and the art of ganking has have had some serious brakes applied to their playstyle...

besides the point i play a mag/stam version of each class - it generally irks me (pvp wise) that the whole "thrill" of being ganked has been removed from pvp...

it's to the point i can ride a mount right past 90% of the folks out there ganking without even needing to dismount...

I understand it's a natural compulsion for folks to feel safe - even in a video game...

other than IC getting easier access - sure wish zos would bring back the prospect of being ganked - and, ease up on all the turtling up...

Does being attacked by someone in stealth while taking a Resource count?

Otherwise its been a while...

Wreuntzylla

Jake1576 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

I think that's the point.

this is ridiculous everyone already runs heavy armor and shield stacks it's hard to kill certain players as it is now you will be forced to loose the element of surprise on these people just to get your damage increase this will severely weaken certain builds

Jake1576 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

I think that's the point.

this is ridiculous everyone already runs heavy armor and shield stacks it's hard to kill certain players as it is now you will be forced to loose the element of surprise on these people just to get your damage increase this will severely weaken certain builds

High dps builds aren't and shouldn't be solo builds. Your choice is too run solo and either roll around in the dirt until someone runs out of stam or spam shields until no mag. Permablockers don't count, dk's might kill a kitten with take flight. OR you can duo tank and dps, very high dps does pressure defensive builds and burns everyone else in two hits. Range them and 99.99% try to kill in your face tank.

Without alch my dps hits stupid hard from stealth, with alchemist it's elloell

geonsocal

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Unsuspecting opponents? In PvP? Leave Cyrodiil and never return.

Yeah...unsuspecting.

Sorry, I don't have Miat's warning me of danger in advance of it happening like you do...

I play on ps4 which is free from the cheats that you are used to...

@TheDoomsdayMonster - serious biz...when's the last time you've been ganked?

I have 10 different characters...1 (a mag sorc) wears 7 light - even he - on a horse - is extremely difficult to gank (granted he wears the impregnable armor set)...

I didn't really start following patch notes until about a year ago (been playing for a couple of years now: ps4/na azura's star>scourge>vivec)...no question zos has been actively dampening the attacks of players from stealth...

although there has been some really successful gank builds involving all the classes - by far nightblades and the art of ganking has have had some serious brakes applied to their playstyle...

besides the point i play a mag/stam version of each class - it generally irks me (pvp wise) that the whole "thrill" of being ganked has been removed from pvp...

it's to the point i can ride a mount right past 90% of the folks out there ganking without even needing to dismount...

I understand it's a natural compulsion for folks to feel safe - even in a video game...

other than IC getting easier access - sure wish zos would bring back the prospect of being ganked - and, ease up on all the turtling up...

Does being attacked by someone in stealth while taking a Resource count?

Otherwise its been a while...

good point...you're absolutely right

I'm not a top tier ganker - unless I'm hitting someone: already engaged, jumping down from a wall, or, getting stunned and eclipsed to death by some npc guards

it's been a few weeks, but, the last time I wanted to get my gank on I did go hang out at the chalman mine on those rocks overlooking the flag...had a blast...

Sneaky-Snurr

If the root cause for having CA nerfed is due to Miat's (or any addon for that matter) in PvP, then ZoS should and must limit the API availability and/or disable addons for PvP; not nerf the set itself. Why should the set get the brunt from this nonsense?

Like the other poster in this thread mentioned, this is utterly pisspoor management, hands down. GG ZoS.

D0PAMINE

I really wanted to get into PVP. It always seemed like fun. I've been playing since launch. Im not great at it, but I just hated getting farmed. I've ganked people (or tried too at least) and i've been ganked too. I've been hit by 4 shooting stars in a row, which was complete overkill, as I wasnt even using impen, and was running a VR14 hybrid NB. Honestly im not sure I could even tell now if someone is cheating or is just a skilled player with a well-built toon.

Feanor

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

If the root cause for having CA nerfed is due to Miat's (or any addon for that matter) in PvP, then ZoS should and must limit the API availability and/or disable addons for PvP; not nerf the set itself. Why should the set get the brunt from this nonsense?

Like the other poster in this thread mentioned, this is utterly pisspoor management, hands down. GG ZoS.

This is breathtaking. I guess Miat's gonna be blamed for the bad weather soon too.

WillhelmBlack

Really good change. It will require a visual effect on the character so you know it's proc'd though.

Zbigb4life

Jake1576 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Jake1576 wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Should just make CA "when you take damage or apply damage, increase WD/SD by..." now.

Let the decon begin.

Yeah I run a bow gank build it's already hard enough to use the bow cause it's so under powered but I always had clever alchemist to look forward to make up for the lack the bow does before I would hit my target now your forced to confront your target as a stamina nightblade to get your damage increase nightblade are already squishy as it is we don't like to confront anyone nightblades like to burst people down then move to the next

Translation:

Us Stamina Nightblades are cowards who only want fight unsuspecting opponents who we can (hopefully) burst down before they can fight back...

Hey, I resemble that statement. I prefer, "tactically expedient." We've got places to be, and people to kill, so we don't have all day to hang around fighting Doomsday Monster builds.

Most builds run heavy armor and are perma block builds or sorcerer shield stacking bad enough trying to kill them before this change will even make it harder they are doing this change to affect ganking play styles not for the reason that's stated in the patch notes

But it will be a good thing for those who still wear light or medium armor.

Enslaved

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Unsuspecting opponents? In PvP? Leave Cyrodiil and never return.

Yeah...unsuspecting.

Sorry, I don't have Miat's warning me of danger in advance of it happening like you do...

I play on ps4 which is free from the cheats that you are used to...

Too bad you are on console, since I would love to wipe the floor with your carcass in PvP for calling me a cheater. I never used nor I will ever use bs cheat addons such is miat.

Runschei

I love it when ZOS ruins both of my characters! I use Clever Alchemist on both my magica nightblade and my stamina nightblade and it's the only pvp builds I've mastered and know >.<

IlCanis_LupuslI

elijafire wrote: »

Jake1576 wrote: »

So you can't use clever alchemist to gank etc anymore unless you hit the person first or they hit you first in order to get the proc to increase your weapon damage or spell damage this is ridiculous this will ruin clever alchemist I usually popped a potion before I hit someone not after I would already hit them this set will be useless now for certain play styles

I'm confused, with hundings and spriggins you should have plenty enough juice to loose from stealth, if they have a shield up then you are doing it wrong

Im using Spriggans, marksman and hittibg 4 20k+ focused aim's

IlCanis_LupuslI

KingMagaw wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Its still possible to use clever alch for ganking. Charge up bow heavy attack (or a snipe), let it go, then drink potion and continue your combo. Since those things have slow travel times, you will be put in combat but you will also drink the potion before the thingy hits.

That doesn't even work due to Miatts addon. As soon as you hover over someone they get INDICATORS that they are under attack. Was a recent thread with only ~9,200 views that ZoS shut down rather than comment on you might of missed.


Additionally, PvP has always been an exploit fest with more private addons than you know. It is not like a new player starts the game with these addons, how many times is their gaming experience negatively impacted because they aren't on a level playing field.

It is already impossible to burst a lot of people from stealth, me included now i run the Heavy Armour Meta. 1 Shield negates Spriggans or any armour penetration. 1 Breath of life your back to full HP. Wearing medium armour is worthless now.

Clever alchemist had a proc animation to glow your arms, very visible. All opponent needed was wait out (Mostly shield spam) 15 seconds and you have negated a 5 set bonus. Wearing spriggans or set that gives crit, shield negates that also. Shield ulti and you have negated C.A. Radiant magelight, detect potion, wearing impen, the game provides many ways to combat stealth hits coupled with the continuous nerfing.

So players cant gank the healers at the back of a zerg?, or the player seiging at the back of the line?.

Fine get used to either playing in a BALL GROUP light attack spamming everything with no skill or getting farmed by being rolled over by 30 players. The zerg mentality in ESO is simply getting worse with no room for the solo player.

Medium armor needs a bit of situational awareness to play successful. I'm playing it on my stamden without any problems

LadyNalcarya

Well, being able to use an extra 5 piece bonus is an exploit, regardless of your playstyle.
No wonder it was patched.

EvilCroc

Sweet gankers' tears are sweet.

Jake1576

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I really wanted to get into PVP. It always seemed like fun. I've been playing since launch. Im not great at it, but I just hated getting farmed. I've ganked people (or tried too at least) and i've been ganked too. I've been hit by 4 shooting stars in a row, which was complete overkill, as I wasnt even using impen, and was running a VR14 hybrid NB. Honestly im not sure I could even tell now if someone is cheating or is just a skilled player with a well-built toon.

If you get into pvp just do like everyone else is doing run a cancerous heavy armor tank build where you can perma block after all that's what zos is wanting everyone to do it seems since they are taking away the diversity of gameplay like ganking etc ganking has been the brunt of the nerf hammer here as of late it's just another thing they are targeting by nerfing clever alchemist since they knew clever alchemist is one of the favorite sets gankers and bombers like to wear

KingMagaw

I have already posted in the other thread but for clarity and insight let me state this again:

This tactic of buffing/switching sets has been around a long time ~19 months for Clever Alchemist. It's a quality issue on lack of testing.

This is not the only set by any means there is many more people do this with. By addressing one set and ignoring the rest is not addressing the problem, espeacilly with the way this has been done.

You will find some sets are 'properly' (I say that very loosely as Imperial Physique is currently bugged again) - But you will find wearing 5 pieces with 10K telvar procs the set. Take 1 piece off and buffs are gone. Easy.

There is no dynamic calculation in ESO that correlates what your wearing/buffs given, thus Cheat Engine reigns as long as the margins are under the 'maximum' that you can legitimately have.

I have always advocated against Cheating and Exploiting and having no addons (Private or public) in a 'competitive' PvP environment but that is ESO and I doubt it will change as the 'fixes' that are being implemented are comparable to placing a band aid on a severed leg.

Maryal

Here is the problem that I see -

The time it takes for the game to consider us as 'being out of combat' was shortened not that long ago (to resolve an issue that kept you from getting back on your mount after a fight was over). That fix was great ... speeding up the time that the game considers us as being out of combat helped us to get back on our mounts quicker and we could also get into stealth a lot quicker too. But, having CA's 5th bonus proc dependent on whether or not the game registers us as 'being in combat' when we drink a potion ... that's not such a good thing (IMO).

I understand why CA got changed ... it wasn't right that some people switched out entire gear sets after procing CA (not just changed bars, but switched out entire gear sets via an addon) so as to exploit the 5th piece bonus of CA. I am glad the exploit got handled so quickly.

To help explain the change, we are told the armor's 5th bonus was intended to be used during battle (or words to that effect).

I'm all for that .... except when I think I am in battle, and when the game registers me as being in battle may be two different things.


For example:
I am in the middle of an area where lots of people are fighting and I need to LOS behind a rock for a few seconds to get a few tics of resource back, or maybe I am LOS'ing to avoid that ambush spamming NB. After 10 seconds of being 'one with the rock,' I am ready to take care of that pesky NB. Before I leave the rock behind, I pop a potion of detect (while wearing CA).

Well, that detect potion worked just fine, I was able to see that sneaky NB no problem. I executed my combo perfectly ... a combo that should have killed him ... but it didn't. Turns out the potion I popped didn't proc CA's 5th bonus because the game registered me as being out of combat when I drank my potion.

Yea, this is a hypothetical, but not unrealistic. I haven't even touched on issues of lag and how that would play into all this. Sometimes, the lag is sooooo bad that you intentionally have to 'get out of combat' just to be able to drink a potion.

I really hope ZOS can figure out some middle ground on this ... maybe instead of requiring us to be 'in combat' when we drink a potion, perhaps the duration of the 5th bonus could be tied to having 5 CA pieces equipped (i.e., having less than 5 CA pieces equipped would cut the proc short).


While we have a lot of craftable sets, we only have a few really good ones ... and this was one of them.

FloppyTouch

Great xb and PS4 gets nerfs now bc of pc thanks master race!

zaria

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

If the root cause for having CA nerfed is due to Miat's (or any addon for that matter) in PvP, then ZoS should and must limit the API availability and/or disable addons for PvP; not nerf the set itself. Why should the set get the brunt from this nonsense?

Like the other poster in this thread mentioned, this is utterly pisspoor management, hands down. GG ZoS.

Miat let you detect stealth players charging up an attack with cast time like HA, snipe or dark flare.
you then block and cast shield.
Now the charging attack is probably the same as telegraphed boss mechanisms but it should not work for stealth.

Issue with CA is addons like dressing room who let you have multiple gear and bar setup and switch between them.
This is very nice as you can have multiple setups for different uses and switch.
An tank switching to DD role in trash fights and on bosses who can not be taunted is one use in combat.
Having one bars setup for solo PvP and another for group is another obvious use.
Also the overall role, DD, heal, overland questing or PvP.
You can anyway not change gear while in combat.

The problem is that some use it to switch to CA drink potion then back to other gear.
Now if drinking an potion put you in combat for 5 seconds it should solve the issue, does anybody drink potions out of combat anyway?

Crom_CCCXVI

No this is weak and lazy fix because on a computer their is a exploit where you can proc alchemist then literally take the set off and put another one on quick, so instead of fixing it they said "screw it this is easier"- it's not about bar switching, that is how the set is meant to work

Crom_CCCXVI

ACHEMIST WORKS EXACTLY THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSE TO === that is why it only last 15 seconds, duh

Wow, you are supposed to be able to drink it on one side, then switch bars.... that was the intention. LOL why would anyone use a set that only worked for 15 seconds if you could just where one that was a little weaker permanently? don't be stupid.
This is totally about a PC exploit.-- to say, "well you have to be on the 5 piece side to get the bonus is even a bigger nerf to an already tricky set to use"....

I know, how about we go back to where Sorcs can't wear two 5 pieces? I think that was a better game.

Inarre

Feanor wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

As a player who cant gank if her life depended on it and gets ganked regularly (read: not a ca nightblade), they need to revert this change. They need to keep options open in order for this playstyle to remain viable. Stealth gank has plenty of counters already and theres no reason in pve for this nerf..

You quite missed the point the change tried to address. It's not ganking per se but gear swapping. Whether their solution is sound is an entirely different question.

I dont think i did miss the point. The dev explanation for it was that they didnt think it was fair to swap gear. Making it so you have to hit someone before you can get the buff is a nerf to ganking, not gear swapping. They should add a buff that binds the gear to you while buff is active if they want to nerf gear swap, this is just the easiest lazy solution.