What is animation cancelling, how does it work and what does it do?

dday3six

starkerealm wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

lol another one of these.

It's 100% truth though. I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game. It's clearly a bug that has been accepted as part of the game because ZOS is unable to fix it.

Bioware did for Mass Effect 3. In Mass Effect 2 it was discovered that with proper timing a melee could be used to cancel the weapon reload animation. This was embraced in ME3 with a visual indication of when players could use a skill to cancel the reload animation.

Animation canceling is part and parcel for most action games because it allows for a more seemless flow of motion. Iirc it was Street Fighter 2, whose combos came unintentionally from animation canceling that started AC widespread usage in gaming.

It feels off in ESO because ZOS tried to cram a more traditional MMO skill bar haphazardly into TES while still making ESO feel like a TES game.

Even in your example, it was something that was discovered...not something intended from launch. Allowing it to stay in the game is just a lazy call from developers imo.

How is something that was discovered in one game, then tuned in a sequel to said game, not something that was supported at launch of the sequel?

Imo, you lacking understanding of the subject matter, and it’s lazy to pretend like you don’t.

He was asking about games intentionally including animation canceling as a design decision. So, for example, something like Skullgirls including animation canceling as a deliberate design decision. (Though, I can't be bothered to check and see if Skullgirls has animation canceling, I'd be surprised if a competitive fighter released after 2010 lacked the feature.)

In Mass Effect 3, Bioware featured animation canceling for the weapon reloads as a design decision. The ammo UI had a large red bar that filled at the exact moment the reload animation could be canceled with a class power. Bioware mentioned multiple times they did this to achieve a flow of gunplay and powers which felt fluid and organic. The feature was inspired by the players discovering that the reload animation of Mass Effect 2 could be cancelled with a melee attack.

I read that the first time. Which doesn't change the fact that animation canceling was not intended functionality in ME2. What Bioware did wasn't that different from what ZOS has done, which is going, "it's a feature, not a bug."

Can’t help but feel like what you’re not reading is that ME3 is the example of it being a feature, not ME2. Bioware fully agreed it was unintentional in ME2.

Go back, and look at the original comment: "I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game."

While you and I both agree that this statement is false, because some games do include animation canceling as intended functionality. Particularly in the character action genre (so, games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, or Dark Souls), and in the fighting game genre (so, games like the Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter series.) In both cases it has become a persistent element in the genres, though not universal. As I recall, one of the recent Street Fighter releases actually included tutorials on animation canceling. Off hand, I can't tell you which games in those genres do include the mechanic, but it's out there.

However, Mass Effect 3 is not a good example, because even though the developers ended up embracing it, it initially began as a bug in ME2. The thing is, ME3 was running a modified version of Unreal, off the exact same fork as ME2. So, when development started on ME3, the bug came over along with the rest of their previous code base. While they ended up saying, "yeah, I meant to do that," it did, in fact, begin as unintended behavior in ME3, prior to release. In general, animation canceling is not a normal component of shooters. Actually I should probably clarify that. Reload cancels are almost ubiquitous in shooters, however, it's not consistent whether a game will reload the weapon when you start the animation, or when you finish. If it is on starting the reload, weapon switching will usually allow you to skip the full animation. (Most Unreal engine games, for example.)

Unless you worked for Bioware at the time, or have deep dived in the code of both games that’s not something you can say with the certainty you project.

Further it’s not Unreal that ultimately allows for animation canceling. It is middleware physics engines, such as Havok, which do. Basically it’s how the physical restraints designed for the game’s world interpret player inputs. It’s easier to fix than most believe. The reason ZOS hasn’t for ESO is because combat would need to be rebuilt. What many seem to overlook is it’s not animation canceling that was wholly unexpected. Rather just the extent players could use it that was. ZOS always meant for ESO to function with reactive combat.

Also, animation canceling is a big part of shooters too. It’s what allows players to do things like go from shooting to meleeing seamlessly.

starkerealm

dday3six wrote: »

Unless you worked for Bioware at the time, or have deep dived in the code of both games that’s not something you can say with the certainty you project.

Actually, all it requires is a professional understanding of software development. You honestly believe that after completing Mass Effect, Bioware tossed all the code and started over from scratch? Because, I can assure you, no, they did not. It would be a waste of money with nothing to be gained as a result. This is the same logic that has seen EA migrate all their newer projects over to Frostbite, and why BGS has been using the same game engine since 1999 for all of their releases. "Oh, sure, Skyrim has a new engine written from the ground up..." Thanks Todd, you rewrote the lighting engine, this is still the BGS fork of Gamebryo.

Also, for what it's worth, this isn't exactly confidential information. You can dig up developer postmortems on the Mass Effect titles if you want to get into the details. All without ever having to step foot in Canada.

dday3six wrote: »

Further it’s not Unreal that ultimately allows for animation canceling. It is middleware physics engines, such as Havok, which do.

No. It's not.

dday3six wrote: »

Basically it’s how the physical restraints designed for the game’s world interpret player inputs.

You may be able to find a game out there that has some bonkers game where player interactions are actually parsed through the physics engine. It might actually exist. In fact, I kind of suspect Trespasser may have done that. (The old Jurassic Park game; Dragon Age: Inquisition is running on a Bioware fork of the Frostbite engine.)

But, that's not how Unreal works. In Mass Effect, Havok controlled the enemy ragdolls and any incidental debris that got knocked around. Havok is software that handles collision physics.

dday3six wrote: »

It’s easier to fix than most believe.

In some cases yes. Because of idiosyncrasies with Unreal, it's kinda a pain there.

dday3six wrote: »

The reason ZOS hasn’t for ESO is because combat would need to be rebuilt.

Yes, and no. The specific reason cited is that it would result in a less responsive experience. Especially if the solution is a GCD. Which would stop animation canceling in its tracks, but the result would not be fun.

dday3six wrote: »

What many seem to overlook is it’s not animation canceling that was wholly unexpected.

Actually, some parts of it were. ZOS went on record back in 2014, saying, "oops, didn't see this one coming, should we take it out?" A lot of people said, "no, leave it," and here we are.

dday3six wrote: »

Rather just the extent players could use it that was. ZOS always meant for ESO to function with reactive combat.

Block and dodge cancels were intentional. Weaving? I doubt it. In fact, when that poll was floated, a lot of us thought they were talking about block canceling. Which is a good thing. Being able to use it into a chained rotation, less so.

dday3six wrote: »

Also, animation canceling is a big part of shooters too. It’s what allows players to do things like go from shooting to meleeing seamlessly.

Again, no. In this case, I'm left wondering if you even understand what animation canceling is. At least in the context of an FPS. With shooters the primary focus for canceling is your reload, not a melee attack if you have one.

technohic

I've always been a weaver but I am really starting to push block cancelling now that I don't strictly play templar. Templar; I would hit a light attack on the last hit of jabs then be right back into another jabs but as I want to use more instants, I am finding I need a block to follow up so it goes light attack>instant>block>Light attack>instant>block rather than my old LA>jabs>la>jabs. Seems to help quite a bit wit the instants but I am curious if it is necessary.

Seems to have a rhythm to it but gets difficult when you mix a channel or cast into the rotation.

zaria

kaorunandrak wrote: »

And this whole thread would not be needed if the devs would animation canceling to the damn tutorial. Or removed it like they should have in the first place.

(And yes I know that would have required them to rework combat and normalize skill animations and would be a ton of work, but 1 thats their job and 2 the game as a whole would benefit from a normalized combat system that had faster animations and balanced gameplay.)

Problem is that they could not remove it as using any skill would left you locked down during the cast time, they could added cast time like snipe, you could still block or dodge but then the skill would not fire, still you can cancel the tail of heavy attacks and still get resources back.

the_broo11

Chronicburn wrote: »

What order would you do these in for max effect?
Instant ability
Normal ability (1 sec cast)
Light attack
Heavy attack
Dodge/block/slam
Weapon swap

Not sure if you're asking about this for pve or pvp, so I'll start with pve. Note that I've been out of the pve environment for a while now, so I can only speak to the basics:

Your rotation won't use all of those types of abilities. As a DD during boss fights, you'll only be using dodge/block when needed for survival/mechanics. Since you mentioned you're on XB1, I'd advise to avoid block cancelling during raids. XB1 tends to have subpar performance during raids, and lag can cause a block to be held longer than the GCD. Also note that there are some boss fights (particularly "burn phases" where there's high incoming damage) where you can benefit from block casting. This is done by holding block and repeatedly casting an instant cast ability. Only use this method if you foresee incoming damage being greater than your raid teams heals.

Your bar setup will be specific to your class/build. The typical setup includes a spammable, an execute, and as many dots as you can fit on your bars. Youll mostly likely want inner light (as you noted), and probably harness depending on the situation.

Like the bar setup, the rotation varies by build. All rotations have the basic objectives though:
- 100% uptime on each dot
- light or heavy attack between each ability use (i.e. weaving), including buffs
- spammable when all dots are active
- ultimate's on CD unless instructed otherwise by the raid


PvP is a bit different. Burst combos are favored over a rotation since players can heal and purge negative effects (dots). A combo typically consists of 2/3 skills/ultimate executed in rapid succession. Combos are often initiated by a heavy attack followed by the skills. There's too many combos out there, so I can't generalize like the pve setup. I'd suggest posting your setup if you want more info, and I'm sure someone can help you out.

starkerealm

zaria wrote: »

kaorunandrak wrote: »

And this whole thread would not be needed if the devs would animation canceling to the damn tutorial. Or removed it like they should have in the first place.

(And yes I know that would have required them to rework combat and normalize skill animations and would be a ton of work, but 1 thats their job and 2 the game as a whole would benefit from a normalized combat system that had faster animations and balanced gameplay.)

Problem is that they could not remove it as using any skill would left you locked down during the cast time, they could added cast time like snipe, you could still block or dodge but then the skill would not fire, still you can cancel the tail of heavy attacks and still get resources back.

The easiest way to mitigate it would be to adjust the way damage functions in game, so that abilities either do damage on a late frame, or spread their damage across multiple frames, and canceling will also cut off that outgoing damage. Which, in turn, would justify long windup abilities like Wrecking Blow and Shards. Alternately, truncating down abilities with long winddowns, like Killer's Blade, or making those winddowns completely interruptible by triggering another ability.

Yeah, "easiest," I know it's non-trivial, either way.

EDIT: Accidentally included a post I ultimately decided not to publish, but thanks to the draft system, it lives forever.

Loc2262

exeeter702 wrote: »

So far, this thread is filled with half truths and complete misconceptions....

I don't think what I said was wrong.

Popular misconceptions which are entirely untrue
-light and heavy attacks have their own GCD

They do, at least LA. They have a cooldown of their own (shorter than the 1.1 seconds of skills). Try it by spamming LA. They go off roughly every 0.75 seconds. Not 0.5 seconds, not 1.1 seconds, but roughly 0.75. So they MUST have a cooldown of their own.

Also, you can do an LA about 0.75 seconds after you do a skill, hence LAs are not subject to the 1.1 seconds skill GCD.

starkerealm

Loc2262 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

So far, this thread is filled with half truths and complete misconceptions....

I don't think what I said was wrong.

Popular misconceptions which are entirely untrue
-light and heavy attacks have their own GCD

They do, at least LA. They have a cooldown of their own (shorter than the 1.1 seconds of skills). Try it by spamming LA. They go off roughly every 0.75 seconds. Not 0.5 seconds, not 1.1 seconds, but roughly 0.75. So they MUST have a cooldown of their own.

Also, you can do an LA about 0.75 seconds after you do a skill, hence LAs are not subject to the 1.1 seconds skill GCD.

As I recall, that was the real payoff for weighted weapons. You could really mess with the combat rhythm. I can't remember if it sped up all combat animations, or just did some really screwy stuff with the internal cooldowns.

Strictly speaking, it's not a GCD. The LA CD is just for light attacks, if it was a GCD, breaking the animation wouldn't allow you to do anything.

Faylis

It's Dance Dance Revolution for your keyboard, Some call it skill others a cheat.

Its muscle memory and it's boring AF

Deheart

danno8 wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

I think what you mean to say is "it makes playing harder, but soloing group content more possible."

Animation cancelling is in no way easier than just pressing skills. That just sounds like you are mad that you are unable to do it well enough.

Acutally, yea, you stated it better. And although I do wish I could do it deliberately in a timed rotation, I have enough success without it to not be bothered with not being able to do it.

Kalante

Faylis wrote: »

It's Dance Dance Revolution for your keyboard, Some call it skill others a cheat.

Its muscle memory and it's boring AF

Says the 3 star noob who spends more time on the forums than in the game yet claims for it to be "boring" What a pro.

Chronicburn

the_broo11 wrote: »

Chronicburn wrote: »

What order would you do these in for max effect?
Instant ability
Normal ability (1 sec cast)
Light attack
Heavy attack
Dodge/block/slam
Weapon swap

Not sure if you're asking about this for pve or pvp, so I'll start with pve. Note that I've been out of the pve environment for a while now, so I can only speak to the basics:

Your rotation won't use all of those types of abilities. As a DD during boss fights, you'll only be using dodge/block when needed for survival/mechanics. Since you mentioned you're on XB1, I'd advise to avoid block cancelling during raids. XB1 tends to have subpar performance during raids, and lag can cause a block to be held longer than the GCD. Also note that there are some boss fights (particularly "burn phases" where there's high incoming damage) where you can benefit from block casting. This is done by holding block and repeatedly casting an instant cast ability. Only use this method if you foresee incoming damage being greater than your raid teams heals.

Your bar setup will be specific to your class/build. The typical setup includes a spammable, an execute, and as many dots as you can fit on your bars. Youll mostly likely want inner light (as you noted), and probably harness depending on the situation.

Like the bar setup, the rotation varies by build. All rotations have the basic objectives though:
- 100% uptime on each dot
- light or heavy attack between each ability use (i.e. weaving), including buffs
- spammable when all dots are active
- ultimate's on CD unless instructed otherwise by the raid


PvP is a bit different. Burst combos are favored over a rotation since players can heal and purge negative effects (dots). A combo typically consists of 2/3 skills/ultimate executed in rapid succession. Combos are often initiated by a heavy attack followed by the skills. There's too many combos out there, so I can't generalize like the pve setup. I'd suggest posting your setup if you want more info, and I'm sure someone can help you out.

This is very helpful stuff. I don't have a real rotation yet, which is why I'm asking all these questions.

My next major problem is the weapon swap. It always feels clunky to me, maybe I just need more practice. Do you generally have a few dots you apply on first bar and then swap weapons? Or when in the rotation is the best time to do swap?

Shadzilla

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

This is somewhat accurate. Animation cancelling was not put into the game on purpose. When we started animation cancelling in 2014 ZOS could not fix it, and now it is pretty much a main mechanic of the game that they often refer to like its supposed to be here. Much like Miat's scrub addon for trash pvp players.

Merlin13KAGL

starkerealm wrote: »

EDIT: Accidentally included a post I ultimately decided not to publish, but thanks to the draft system, it lives forever.

Hey, @starkerealm , if you click on your profile, go to the gear at the top, there is a My Drafts option. Find the one in question, and click the 'X' at the far right, and you can send the unwanted draft back to Oblivion.

lynog85

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

Its not a bug whatsoever. Its called mechanics. Either you learn to do it or you cry about it and be a noob.

lynog85

Chronicburn wrote: »

Thanks for all the info so far, you guys have been very helpful!

My follow up question (keep in mind I play on Xbox) ...

What order would you do these in for max effect?
Instant ability
Normal ability (1 sec cast)
Light attack
Heavy attack
Dodge/block/slam
Weapon swap

Thanks again, this will help me practice a good rotation.

Also, with the limited amount of slots available (assuming magelight morph on both bars) how many would you dedicate for dots as opposed to DD and other abilities?

There are two ways to animation cancel bro. Blocking and bar swapping. Anything with a cast time cant be animation cancelled. Hard casting a frag for instance. More or less all ulti and abilities can be. It just takes practice. Duellings the best way to get it spot on. What class do you play?

Loc2262

lynog85 wrote: »

There are two ways to animation cancel bro. Blocking and bar swapping.

Actually, there's three ways. In addition to your two, LA/HA cancels skill animations, and skills cancel LA/HA animations.

technohic

Loc2262 wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

There are two ways to animation cancel bro. Blocking and bar swapping.

Actually, there's three ways. In addition to your two, LA/HA cancels skill animations, and skills cancel LA/HA animations.

I thought skills cancelled LA/HA animation, block/weapon swap/roll cancelled skill animation. Do the sequence is LA-skill-block?

NotNormanBates

A really good start is to check out some Alcast video's. While they're not necessarily the absolute best builds in the game, they will be more than enough to complete all vet dungeons/trials in the game and he does a very good job at explaining rotation's and the like. By far the most forgiving dps spec in the game at the moment, in my opinion, is the magsorc. For example a pretty general rotation on a test dummy is to first build up your ultimate before you start then; Make sure your volatile familiar is out, Drop Elemental rage(destruction staff ultimate)--Light attack(LA)-- Liquid lightning-- LA-- wall of elements--- LA-- volatile familiar-- LA-- daedric prey-- weapon swap-- Heavy attack-- LA-- shock clench. Repeat

Faylis

Kalante wrote: »

Faylis wrote: »

It's Dance Dance Revolution for your keyboard, Some call it skill others a cheat.

Its muscle memory and it's boring AF

Says the 3 star noob who spends more time on the forums than in the game yet claims for it to be "boring" What a pro.

You don't know me or my gaming habits to make any such claims.You seem to be one of those special people that have to try and shutdown differing opinions. Yes, my take on AC is that it is boring. More power to you if you enjoy mashing the same sequence of keys over and over in an effort to reach peak DPS. Is it effective? Yes. Do i find it mind numbing? Yes.

Try not to be a total *** hammer your whole life, the people around you may find you more pleasant.

Show me on the doll where my opinion touched you.

Loc2262

technohic wrote: »

I thought skills cancelled LA/HA animation, block/weapon swap/roll cancelled skill animation. Do the sequence is LA-skill-block?

Skills cancel LA/HA, correct. Block (and probably weapon swap, haven't fully tested that) cancels everything. LA/HA also cancel skills.

srfrogg23

Chronicburn wrote: »

Title says it all. I hear it discussed all the time but don't know anything about it. Please elaborate :0)

Using defensive abilities like blocking, dodging, or bar swapping will interrupt your attack animations. It’s meant to allow players to react to enemy attacks and keep combat moving quickly, so players aren’t throttling their own attacks in combat by waiting for the right moment to cast abilities.

As usual, though, people found a way to... well, abuse it. Not going to sugarcoat it. People use that mechanism to increase their dps beyond what it should be.

altemriel

Chronicburn wrote: »

Title says it all. I hear it discussed all the time but don't know anything about it. Please elaborate :0)

check these out:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3457257/#Comment_3457257

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLZzGoPp9Ug

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZYoEztDilE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThZtwhYkKSs

Jeremy

lynog85 wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

Its not a bug whatsoever. Its called mechanics. Either you learn to do it or you cry about it and be a noob.

It's an exploit is what it is. One that was too difficult to fix - so they instead decided to embrace it and pretend that it was interesting.

No one would ever intentionally create gameplay that revolves around canceling animations that game developers work hard to create. It also looks incredibly tacky, which is another obvious hint.

The developers likely wanted players to be able to interrupt their skills - for example with a block - so as to make the combat more interactive so they could block attacks when they came instead of having to sit there doing nothing from fear of an animation already in progress keeping them from blocking. Which makes sense. What they did not consider at the time was that players would also use this to speed up their DPS rotations by canceling animations constantly as a regular style of play instead of simply using it to block or dodge incoming attacks.

I do not play a DPS so I am unsure as to the extent of the advantage (though I did play around with so-called animation canceling a few times out of curiosity and found the whole process very stupid and annoying). This game should never be built with animation canceling in mind. No player should ever have to adopt such a tacky play style to be effective.

technohic

Loc2262 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I thought skills cancelled LA/HA animation, block/weapon swap/roll cancelled skill animation. Do the sequence is LA-skill-block?

Skills cancel LA/HA, correct. Block (and probably weapon swap, haven't fully tested that) cancels everything. LA/HA also cancel skills.

Trying a light attack after and before a skill, I beleive you are right; but I seem to have a bit of a delay if I cancel a light attack with a skill and then want to cancel the skill with a light attack. At least with instants. So LA>Skill>...LA is what it feels like to me. Could it be just a matter of the original LA still being on its Global CD? I have found some better results with LA>Skill>Block then repeat but Its taking me a while to get used to it since I have played Templar mostly to where LA>Jabs>LA actually works. Always block cancelled BOL because of its long hand wave.

exeeter702

Loc2262 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

So far, this thread is filled with half truths and complete misconceptions....

I don't think what I said was wrong.

Popular misconceptions which are entirely untrue
-light and heavy attacks have their own GCD

They do, at least LA. They have a cooldown of their own (shorter than the 1.1 seconds of skills). Try it by spamming LA. They go off roughly every 0.75 seconds. Not 0.5 seconds, not 1.1 seconds, but roughly 0.75. So they MUST have a cooldown of their own.

Also, you can do an LA about 0.75 seconds after you do a skill, hence LAs are not subject to the 1.1 seconds skill GCD.

Sorry but this is wrong. Basic attacks will go off no sooner than the gcd after an ability is used.. if you activate a light attack at .5 seconds in, it will fire at the 1 second mark. This isnt an opinion. There are plenty of tools at your disposal to extrapolate this information on pc.

Basic attacks, right down to the code, do not have their own GCD. Light attacks themselves cam not be rapid fired obviously. Under expected combat flow, will ability use in between, they function exactly as i have explained.

starkerealm

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

EDIT: Accidentally included a post I ultimately decided not to publish, but thanks to the draft system, it lives forever.

Hey, @starkerealm , if you click on your profile, go to the gear at the top, there is a My Drafts option. Find the one in question, and click the 'X' at the far right, and you can send the unwanted draft back to Oblivion.

I usually go through and clean them out every six to eight months. Usually, I'm also pretty careful about making sure I don't have any trailing post at the top, before I hit post reply, but I was on my way out the door yesterday, and forgot about the post the night before.

Still, thank you.

the_broo11

Chronicburn wrote: »

the_broo11 wrote: »

Chronicburn wrote: »

What order would you do these in for max effect?
Instant ability
Normal ability (1 sec cast)
Light attack
Heavy attack
Dodge/block/slam
Weapon swap

Not sure if you're asking about this for pve or pvp, so I'll start with pve. Note that I've been out of the pve environment for a while now, so I can only speak to the basics:

Your rotation won't use all of those types of abilities. As a DD during boss fights, you'll only be using dodge/block when needed for survival/mechanics. Since you mentioned you're on XB1, I'd advise to avoid block cancelling during raids. XB1 tends to have subpar performance during raids, and lag can cause a block to be held longer than the GCD. Also note that there are some boss fights (particularly "burn phases" where there's high incoming damage) where you can benefit from block casting. This is done by holding block and repeatedly casting an instant cast ability. Only use this method if you foresee incoming damage being greater than your raid teams heals.

Your bar setup will be specific to your class/build. The typical setup includes a spammable, an execute, and as many dots as you can fit on your bars. Youll mostly likely want inner light (as you noted), and probably harness depending on the situation.

Like the bar setup, the rotation varies by build. All rotations have the basic objectives though:
- 100% uptime on each dot
- light or heavy attack between each ability use (i.e. weaving), including buffs
- spammable when all dots are active
- ultimate's on CD unless instructed otherwise by the raid


PvP is a bit different. Burst combos are favored over a rotation since players can heal and purge negative effects (dots). A combo typically consists of 2/3 skills/ultimate executed in rapid succession. Combos are often initiated by a heavy attack followed by the skills. There's too many combos out there, so I can't generalize like the pve setup. I'd suggest posting your setup if you want more info, and I'm sure someone can help you out.

This is very helpful stuff. I don't have a real rotation yet, which is why I'm asking all these questions.

My next major problem is the weapon swap. It always feels clunky to me, maybe I just need more practice. Do you generally have a few dots you apply on first bar and then swap weapons? Or when in the rotation is the best time to do swap?

I had often played with more dots on the back bar, and shorter duration ones on front (didn't want to swap too much because raid peromance was so bad back then... lol). I suggest looking up builds like yours to get an idea of how other setup their bars.

On your question of swap cancelling, it can be a bit tricky at first. When I was first learning, I would practice anytime I that I wasn't doing anything (i.e. waiting on people afk, before a raid, or while talking in guild chat). I was playing stam at the time, so I'd have volley (back before endless hail was meta) on backbar, and repeat light attack --> bar swap --> volley --> bar swap light attack. You'll know you've mastered it when you can cancel nearly the entire volley animation.

Loc2262

exeeter702 wrote: »

Loc2262 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

So far, this thread is filled with half truths and complete misconceptions....

I don't think what I said was wrong.

Popular misconceptions which are entirely untrue
-light and heavy attacks have their own GCD

They do, at least LA. They have a cooldown of their own (shorter than the 1.1 seconds of skills). Try it by spamming LA. They go off roughly every 0.75 seconds. Not 0.5 seconds, not 1.1 seconds, but roughly 0.75. So they MUST have a cooldown of their own.

Also, you can do an LA about 0.75 seconds after you do a skill, hence LAs are not subject to the 1.1 seconds skill GCD.

Sorry but this is wrong. Basic attacks will go off no sooner than the gcd after an ability is used.. if you activate a light attack at .5 seconds in, it will fire at the 1 second mark. This isnt an opinion. There are plenty of tools at your disposal to extrapolate this information on pc.

Basic attacks, right down to the code, do not have their own GCD. Light attacks themselves cam not be rapid fired obviously. Under expected combat flow, will ability use in between, they function exactly as i have explained.

Firstly, yep you seem to be right about this. I tested it with Combat Metrics, and apparently basic attacks do obey the skill cooldown. I never looked at the CM figures for that, but was kinda misled by looking at the animations. I.e. the LA animation after doing a skill does happen sooner than 1.1 seconds, but according to the CM log, the LA damage indeed is registered 1.1 seconds after the skill damage.

Secondly, just like you said, basic attacks "cannot be rapid fired". That's what I meant with them having a cooldown of their own, separate from the skill GCD. If they're used after a skill, the GCD obviously takes precedence.

Vaoh

@Chronicburn

Animation Cancelling is quite literally what it sounds like. You can cancel animations, which is actually necessary to be able to deal as much damage as possible. You probably do it a lot and don't even notice since it flows perfectly with the combat. There are multiple ways to do what we call "animation cancelling".

Take for example a light attack. Do you ever cast light attacks and then use a skill afterward? If so, you would have had to wait 1-2sec for the light attack animation to fully play out in order to not "animation cancel". By casting a skill immediately after a light attack, you cancelled the light attack animation.

Have you ever spammed a skill by mashing down a button? If so, you would have probably noticed that you can't use the skill as quickly as you like. There is a 1 second global cooldown on all skill casts, which prohibits you from casting more than 1 skill in one second in order to maintain balance. Due to this, you deal higher damage in PvE by light attacking in between every skill cast, since light attacks and skill casts do not share the same global cooldowns. Skill casts take priority over light attacks.

Animation cancelling also includes dodge rolling/blocking immediately after casting a skill to cut short its animation. Cast a skill, and the moment it activates, block or dodge roll. You have now cancelled the animation. Experienced players can often cancel an animation to the point where it barely plays at all before their character dodge rolls or blocks. You can also bar swap to animation cancel, such as by casting a skill and then immediately bar swapping.

No matter which way you do it though, you'll notice that it is impossible to bypass the 1 second global cooldown. If you block to animation cancel a cast of your Force Pulse, it is possible to cast it a few miliseconds faster, but then your next skill cast will require the same amount of time extra to be used, leading to no net benefit at all besides making things more complicated for dealing damage. Of course, this type of technique leads to interesting gameplay and sets apart the good from the bad in PvP since how well you can animation cancel is very much based on a player's skill level and reaction time.

The main benefit of animation cancelling is mastering how to light attack inbetween skill casts. After a while you don't even think about since it fits so smoothly within the combat system.

If this didn't exist, ESO would be disgusting to play. The vast majority of content wouldn't be completable and combat would feel insanely clunky and unfun.