What is animation cancelling, how does it work and what does it do?

Chronicburn

Title says it all. I hear it discussed all the time but don't know anything about it. Please elaborate :0)

fgoron2000

Chronicburn wrote: »

Title says it all. I hear it discussed all the time but don't know anything about it. Please elaborate :0)

In briefest form, as I'm not an expert, or even student of it yet myself, you perform multiple attacks in quick succession, so quickly that the animation of the first is interrupted and cancelled, by the processing of the second, and sometimes a third. I don't know if it's always the case, but any combos that I'd ever seen referenced, were that the first action is a light attack with a weapon, and then it's quickly followed by an action from the active bar. The weapon animation is cancelled by the hotbar action, so that you end up performing 2 attacks in not much more time than a single attack animation, and complex combos add a 3rd action from the hotbar. Some combos work better than others, and I'm sure that searches on the forum here, can discover some of the better better combos by experienced players.

Anyone, please correct anything that I've mis-stated here.

Atreyix

Essentially, what it is.. When you cast lets say volley on your bow bar, right when you start the animation you bar swap and continue your rotation. 2-3 seconds less to cast volley... etc That's how animation canceling works. Why do people use it? Well since it's less time to cast that ability in the end you're able to push out more abilities to increase your overall dps in the end.

Deheart

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

Mazbt

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

lol another one of these.

Asmael

There are multiple types of actions available: blocking, roll dodging, doing a light / heavy attack, casting an ability, swapping weapons...

Each of these actions has a specific global cooldown, which does not activate other actions' cooldown. For instance, doing a light attack will not enable a cooldown on abilities, which is why you can use a light attack before every single ability (this in particular is referred to as "weaving").

Do note that it is not possible to bypass an action's cooldown. You cannot cast multiple abilities per second, but you can very quickly chain different actions. If you are fast, you can do a light attack, cast an instant ability, bash your opponent then dodge roll in a very small timeframe (0.1-0.3s).

Animation cancelling refers to the act of doing one of these actions to quickly chain it into another one, effectively skipping the first action's animation.

W0lf_z13

people also refer to it as weaving , which is adding in a light/heavy ( generally light attack ) in between skills ... LA | skill | bash/block/swap weapon ... doing so increases your dps by shortening the animation of an attack if quick enough you cant see the skill cast at all , some skills can be animation canceled... others cant , skills that require a channel/cast time generally can not be ani canceled

danno8

There is an order in this game of actions that can cancel the animation of another action. The reason for this is so that you can react quickly to changing combat conditions.

For example you want to always be able to block on demand without having to wait for a skill with a 1 second cast time to complete. Same with dodge, or bar swap.

You can use this to your advantage by knowing what skills cancel what other skills. The order is generally as follows:

-Block, Dodge, Bash are highest priority and will cancel the animation of nearly all skills in the game.
-Weapon swap will cancel the animation of instant cast skills, but not all cast time skills
-Skills (default 1,2,3,4,5 on your skill bar) will cancel the animations of Light Attacks and Heavy Attacks

Because of this order it is possible to layer your actions so that you can get three actions in quick succession. For example you can Light attack, quickly press a skill, then quickly press Bash to have all three actions land within 1s of each other. Or you can cast Vigor, then roll dodge cancelling out the back half of the vigor animation.

The timing takes a bit of practice but you can become very good at it. Your character will look like a total spaz since the animations are all over the place, but you can do more damage and/or avoid more damage than those who can't do it as well.

OdinForge

From a very simple perspective you could look at animation canceling as the inclusion of light or heavy attacks into a skill rotation, instead of just spamming skills while waiting for each animation to end. It goes further than this however, and there are many types of animation canceling techniques that allow you to setup combo attacks.

For example you want to hit a target with crystal fragment, but they keep dodging the skill. One crystal fragment won't kill your target anyway, you need a burst combo. You use the ultimate dawnbreaker to hit your target which also applies a CC, knocking them on the ground. Now you could wait for that animation to play out entirely, and once it's done cast your crystal fragment. But by the time you do that your target will be back up and healing.

Instead you cast your ultimate dawnbreaker on your target, quickly press the block key and press fragment. If your target doesn't react fast enough, the fragment will hit them before they can get up.

This is just a simple example of what animation canceling is, obviously it goes beyond this. Many games with a more technical combat system incorporate some form of animation canceling. For Honor is a recent example of a fighting game that revolves heavily around animation canceling, referred to as feinting within that space. Where creating an opening in your opponents defense often revolves around canceling your heavy attacks, to trick your opponent into guarding the wrong way.

On the other hand of the coin you'll hear from many people that it's a bug or exploit or some type of hack. These people tend to be fairly uninformed and/or easily confused. They also tend to fall within the more subpar category of player, the kind that lose at a game and have to find something to blame.

Nestor

Here this will give you a quick primer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLZzGoPp9Ug

Now, consoles do this differently from PC, so see the following if that is your platform

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=***-PBevmzVM

danno8

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

If you have ever been killing something and then you notice them charging up an attack, which you then Bashed, unless you were doing absolutely nothing I can guarantee you cancelled the animation of something with the bash.

If you have ever quickly roll dodged out of a red area of death while trying to kill something I can guarantee that you cancelled the back -half of the animation of something.

Like it or not, being able to respond quickly to combat situations in this game is a defining feature that makes it different from other MMO's.

Loc2262

@danno8: Light/heavy attacks also cancel the animation of skills, not only the other way round. A good test for this is weaving Endless Hail.

Basic rule is, animations of anything that happens in-game are not hard-tied to the effect of the action. If a skill says "Instant cast time", it is instant. Any fancy animation going with the skill is just icing on the cake. If you take any other action after invoking an instant cast skill, the animation is canceled and the new action is executed.

@OdinForge: Thus, animation canceling is not only the addition of LA/HA.

The second basic rule to keep in mind is separate global cooldowns of different actions, like @Asmael explained. That together allows for doing LAs and skills "interwoven", i.e. in a cycle, heeding the GCD of LA and skill separately, hence doing both in (almost) the same time frame as doing only one or the other.

And no, this is not a bug, but a consequence of the very necessary ability to use block to stop/cancel any other action going on, if you e.g. need to defend against an incoming heavy attack. Without that, you'd be screwed if you were in the process of doing a reverse slice, snipe or Jesus beam and you got targeted by a nasty mob.

kaorunandrak

And this whole thread would not be needed if the devs would animation canceling to the damn tutorial. Or removed it like they should have in the first place.

(And yes I know that would have required them to rework combat and normalize skill animations and would be a ton of work, but 1 thats their job and 2 the game as a whole would benefit from a normalized combat system that had faster animations and balanced gameplay.)

Mazbt

They could put something in the tutorial easy. Let's say they ask you to heavy attack something but oh no red is on the ground you have to roll dodge out and cancel the heavy attack or u take damage.

danno8

Loc2262 wrote: »

@danno8: Light/heavy attacks also cancel the animation of skills, not only the other way round. A good test for this is weaving Endless Hail.

Try this.

Endless Hail followed by roll dodge or block. Compare that to an Endless Hail followed by a Light Attack. You will find that the roll dodge or block significantly cuts more animation than the light attack. Endless Hail is a bit of an oddball though.

Try that with Poison Injection and the LA will do nothing at all until the PI has already finished.

tizodd

Mazbt wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

lol another one of these.

It's 100% truth though. I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game. It's clearly a bug that has been accepted as part of the game because ZOS is unable to fix it.

danno8

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

I think what you mean to say is "it makes playing harder, but soloing group content more possible."

Animation cancelling is in no way easier than just pressing skills. That just sounds like you are mad that you are unable to do it well enough.

OdinForge

Loc2262 wrote: »

@danno8: Light/heavy attacks also cancel the animation of skills, not only the other way round. A good test for this is weaving Endless Hail.

Basic rule is, animations of anything that happens in-game are not hard-tied to the effect of the action. If a skill says "Instant cast time", it is instant. Any fancy animation going with the skill is just icing on the cake. If you take any other action after invoking an instant cast skill, the animation is canceled and the new action is executed.

@OdinForge: Thus, animation canceling is not only the addition of LA/HA.

The second basic rule to keep in mind is separate global cooldowns of different actions, like @Asmael explained. That together allows for doing LAs and skills "interwoven", i.e. in a cycle, heeding the GCD of LA and skill separately, hence doing both in (almost) the same time frame as doing only one or the other.

And no, this is not a bug, but a consequence of the very necessary ability to use block to stop/cancel any other action going on, if you e.g. need to defend against an incoming heavy attack. Without that, you'd be screwed if you were in the process of doing a reverse slice, snipe or Jesus beam and you got targeted by a nasty mob.

As I indeed went on to explain in my post via the use of block to cancel an ultimate. For new people with confused ideas of what AC allows one to do, wrapping their mind around basic attacks is an easy start.

dday3six

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

lol another one of these.

It's 100% truth though. I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game. It's clearly a bug that has been accepted as part of the game because ZOS is unable to fix it.

Bioware did for Mass Effect 3. In Mass Effect 2 it was discovered that with proper timing a melee could be used to cancel the weapon reload animation. This was embraced in ME3 with a visual indication of when players could use a skill to cancel the reload animation.

Animation canceling is part and parcel for most action games because it allows for a more seemless flow of motion. Iirc it was Street Fighter 2, whose combos came unintentionally from animation canceling that started AC widespread usage in gaming.

It feels off in ESO because ZOS tried to cram a more traditional MMO skill bar haphazardly into TES while still making ESO feel like a TES game.

exeeter702

So far, this thread is filled with half truths and complete misconceptions....

Forgive the lengthy post but please take a second to read through it.

Here are the elements of combat in ESO that you need to know.

1 second Global Cool Down
Basic attacks
Reactionary/defensive actions off the GCD
Cast time and channeled abilities
0.5 second ability queue window

Activating an ability triggers the GCD. Most abilities are instant cast and therefore resolve instantly however most abilities have recovery animations that extend beyond the 1 second GCD. If you are activating an ability off every CGD, you will essentially be "animation canceling" since activating another skill will cut short the recovery animation of the previous skill.

Understand that you CAN NOT use abilities in a faster frequency than the games GCD allows, there is absolutely and objectively no way to break this under normal means in game. Period.

Basic attacks ie white attacks do not trigger the GCD but they do obey it. This is intrinsically and intentionally designed where atracks are intended to be used before skills since they dont trigger the gcd. This is how attack weaving is produced and thus what happens is you initiate a basic attack and quickly cast an ability which starts the GCD. Much like mentioned above, you cant do anything including another basic attack within that CGD duration but the second the GCD is up you initiate another basic attack which again cuts off the recovery animation of the skill just used. Doing this in continued succession is generally mandatory when aiming for as much damage production as possible. This is attack weaving which many lump together with animation canceling.

Eso combat was designed first and foremost to be reactionary, to have mostly complete control of ones character in combat, to not be rooted in ability recovery animations since it would be far to cumbersome and punishing to players who successfully resolve an instant cast ability only to be stuck in said abilities recovery animation and thus unable to act defensively from another hazard or attack. For this reason, block, bash, dodge roll and bar swap are all ENTIRELY off the GCD. What this essentially means at ANY point after initiating the GCD, you are able to take one of the aforementioned actions.

If you cast an instant cast ability then immediately block, naturally the recovery animation with be cut short so the game can display your blocking animation. However a very important thing to note here, and which many people dont understand or realize is that "block canceling" does not assist in any way with stringing abilites together. Once the GCD initiates and you instantly block, you are still locked out of ability use for the 1 second GCD. This clear rule applies not only to block but to bash, roll dodge and bar swap as well. The only real benefit of "block canceling" in pvp is to mask the animationsn of skills in hopes to trick opponents and also the benefit of its core design, to take action and counterplay when required. The DK quickly blocks after casting reflective scale masking (almost) all of the flappy wing aimation, and now the mag sorc is not aware that his loaded and ready crystal frag is going to fly back at his face. The NB lets loose an uppercut but sees a snipe flying at him and quickly blocks right when uppercut connects. Again bar swapping, roll dodging etc also apply. You CAN NOT use this method to speed up the time between 2 unique abilites beyond what the GCD dictates.

One thing that seems to confuse players on the subject is that of cast time and channeled abilities. Its actually very simple. Take uppercut for example which has a cast time that (not coincidentally) is equal to the GCD. Like most rpgs, mmo or otherwise, canceling a cast time abilitiy before it resloves yeilds nothing. When uppercut is casted, immediately when the ability begins, the GCD is triggered lining exactly up at the same time uppercut resolves. So by the time uppercut connects with a target, the GCD is already refreshed and you are free to cast another ability and as mentioned above, doing so will NATURALLY cut off the recovery animation of uppercut. Channeled abilites operate the same. Once the channel is initiated, so to is the GCD.

Something that really does go under the radar for many players is the existence of an ability queue feature. Most players incorrectly attribute this to be related to or a byproduct of cutting off recovery animations which is completely false. ESO incorporates a 0.5 second ability queue. Simply put, if you cast an ability or a basic attack at 0.5 seconds into the GCD, the action will fire once the GCD is refreshed. This is not an opinion, it is a fact. Also a fact is that this has nothing to do with "animation canceling" and thus has no bearing on it.

Popular misconceptions which are entirely untrue

-Varying animation "priorities" between skills
-light and heavy attacks have their own GCD
-animation canceling can speed up abilites faster than the GCD limit
-block canceling can increase pve dps

Its a sensitive and controversial topic and not an easy question to answer and requires level of understanding of what goes on under the hood of this games combat system, many of which unfortunately dont.

tizodd

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

lol another one of these.

It's 100% truth though. I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game. It's clearly a bug that has been accepted as part of the game because ZOS is unable to fix it.

Bioware did for Mass Effect 3. In Mass Effect 2 it was discovered that with proper timing a melee could be used to cancel the weapon reload animation. This was embraced in ME3 with a visual indication of when players could use a skill to cancel the reload animation.

Animation canceling is part and parcel for most action games because it allows for a more seemless flow of motion. Iirc it was Street Fighter 2, whose combos came unintentionally from animation canceling that started AC widespread usage in gaming.

It feels off in ESO because ZOS tried to cram a more traditional MMO skill bar haphazardly into TES while still making ESO feel like a TES game.

Even in your example, it was something that was discovered...not something intended from launch. Allowing it to stay in the game is just a lazy call from developers imo.

starkerealm

danno8 wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

I think what you mean to say is "it makes playing harder, but soloing group content more possible."

Animation cancelling is in no way easier than just pressing skills. That just sounds like you are mad that you are unable to do it well enough.

It's fairly common in fighting games and character action games as an intended feature. Specifically to allow quick responses to enemy attacks. Usually, I'd cite Dark Souls as an example, but I'm honestly not sure animation canceling is intentional in the Fromsoft games. I love them, but they are glitchy as hell.

dday3six

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

lol another one of these.

It's 100% truth though. I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game. It's clearly a bug that has been accepted as part of the game because ZOS is unable to fix it.

Bioware did for Mass Effect 3. In Mass Effect 2 it was discovered that with proper timing a melee could be used to cancel the weapon reload animation. This was embraced in ME3 with a visual indication of when players could use a skill to cancel the reload animation.

Animation canceling is part and parcel for most action games because it allows for a more seemless flow of motion. Iirc it was Street Fighter 2, whose combos came unintentionally from animation canceling that started AC widespread usage in gaming.

It feels off in ESO because ZOS tried to cram a more traditional MMO skill bar haphazardly into TES while still making ESO feel like a TES game.

Even in your example, it was something that was discovered...not something intended from launch. Allowing it to stay in the game is just a lazy call from developers imo.

How is something that was discovered in one game, then tuned in a sequel to said game, not something that was supported at launch of the sequel?

Imo, you lacking understanding of the subject matter, and it’s lazy to pretend like you don’t.

starkerealm

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

lol another one of these.

It's 100% truth though. I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game. It's clearly a bug that has been accepted as part of the game because ZOS is unable to fix it.

Bioware did for Mass Effect 3. In Mass Effect 2 it was discovered that with proper timing a melee could be used to cancel the weapon reload animation. This was embraced in ME3 with a visual indication of when players could use a skill to cancel the reload animation.

Animation canceling is part and parcel for most action games because it allows for a more seemless flow of motion. Iirc it was Street Fighter 2, whose combos came unintentionally from animation canceling that started AC widespread usage in gaming.

It feels off in ESO because ZOS tried to cram a more traditional MMO skill bar haphazardly into TES while still making ESO feel like a TES game.

Even in your example, it was something that was discovered...not something intended from launch. Allowing it to stay in the game is just a lazy call from developers imo.

How is something that was discovered in one game, then tuned in a sequel to said game, not something that was supported at launch of the sequel?

Imo, you lacking understanding of the subject matter, and it’s lazy to pretend like you don’t.

He was asking about games intentionally including animation canceling as a design decision. So, for example, something like Skullgirls including animation canceling as a deliberate design decision. (Though, I can't be bothered to check and see if Skullgirls has animation canceling, I'd be surprised if a competitive fighter released after 2010 lacked the feature.)

dday3six

starkerealm wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

lol another one of these.

It's 100% truth though. I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game. It's clearly a bug that has been accepted as part of the game because ZOS is unable to fix it.

Bioware did for Mass Effect 3. In Mass Effect 2 it was discovered that with proper timing a melee could be used to cancel the weapon reload animation. This was embraced in ME3 with a visual indication of when players could use a skill to cancel the reload animation.

Animation canceling is part and parcel for most action games because it allows for a more seemless flow of motion. Iirc it was Street Fighter 2, whose combos came unintentionally from animation canceling that started AC widespread usage in gaming.

It feels off in ESO because ZOS tried to cram a more traditional MMO skill bar haphazardly into TES while still making ESO feel like a TES game.

Even in your example, it was something that was discovered...not something intended from launch. Allowing it to stay in the game is just a lazy call from developers imo.

How is something that was discovered in one game, then tuned in a sequel to said game, not something that was supported at launch of the sequel?

Imo, you lacking understanding of the subject matter, and it’s lazy to pretend like you don’t.

He was asking about games intentionally including animation canceling as a design decision. So, for example, something like Skullgirls including animation canceling as a deliberate design decision. (Though, I can't be bothered to check and see if Skullgirls has animation canceling, I'd be surprised if a competitive fighter released after 2010 lacked the feature.)

In Mass Effect 3, Bioware featured animation canceling for the weapon reloads as a design decision. The ammo UI had a large red bar that filled at the exact moment the reload animation could be canceled with a class power. Bioware mentioned multiple times they did this to achieve a flow of gunplay and powers which felt fluid and organic. The feature was inspired by the players discovering that the reload animation of Mass Effect 2 could be cancelled with a melee attack.

starkerealm

dday3six wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

lol another one of these.

It's 100% truth though. I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game. It's clearly a bug that has been accepted as part of the game because ZOS is unable to fix it.

Bioware did for Mass Effect 3. In Mass Effect 2 it was discovered that with proper timing a melee could be used to cancel the weapon reload animation. This was embraced in ME3 with a visual indication of when players could use a skill to cancel the reload animation.

Animation canceling is part and parcel for most action games because it allows for a more seemless flow of motion. Iirc it was Street Fighter 2, whose combos came unintentionally from animation canceling that started AC widespread usage in gaming.

It feels off in ESO because ZOS tried to cram a more traditional MMO skill bar haphazardly into TES while still making ESO feel like a TES game.

Even in your example, it was something that was discovered...not something intended from launch. Allowing it to stay in the game is just a lazy call from developers imo.

How is something that was discovered in one game, then tuned in a sequel to said game, not something that was supported at launch of the sequel?

Imo, you lacking understanding of the subject matter, and it’s lazy to pretend like you don’t.

He was asking about games intentionally including animation canceling as a design decision. So, for example, something like Skullgirls including animation canceling as a deliberate design decision. (Though, I can't be bothered to check and see if Skullgirls has animation canceling, I'd be surprised if a competitive fighter released after 2010 lacked the feature.)

In Mass Effect 3, Bioware featured animation canceling for the weapon reloads as a design decision. The ammo UI had a large red bar that filled at the exact moment the reload animation could be canceled with a class power. Bioware mentioned multiple times they did this to achieve a flow of gunplay and powers which felt fluid and organic. The feature was inspired by the players discovering that the reload animation of Mass Effect 2 could be cancelled with a melee attack.

I read that the first time. Which doesn't change the fact that animation canceling was not intended functionality in ME2. What Bioware did wasn't that different from what ZOS has done, which is going, "it's a feature, not a bug."

dday3six

starkerealm wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

lol another one of these.

It's 100% truth though. I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game. It's clearly a bug that has been accepted as part of the game because ZOS is unable to fix it.

Bioware did for Mass Effect 3. In Mass Effect 2 it was discovered that with proper timing a melee could be used to cancel the weapon reload animation. This was embraced in ME3 with a visual indication of when players could use a skill to cancel the reload animation.

Animation canceling is part and parcel for most action games because it allows for a more seemless flow of motion. Iirc it was Street Fighter 2, whose combos came unintentionally from animation canceling that started AC widespread usage in gaming.

It feels off in ESO because ZOS tried to cram a more traditional MMO skill bar haphazardly into TES while still making ESO feel like a TES game.

Even in your example, it was something that was discovered...not something intended from launch. Allowing it to stay in the game is just a lazy call from developers imo.

How is something that was discovered in one game, then tuned in a sequel to said game, not something that was supported at launch of the sequel?

Imo, you lacking understanding of the subject matter, and it’s lazy to pretend like you don’t.

He was asking about games intentionally including animation canceling as a design decision. So, for example, something like Skullgirls including animation canceling as a deliberate design decision. (Though, I can't be bothered to check and see if Skullgirls has animation canceling, I'd be surprised if a competitive fighter released after 2010 lacked the feature.)

In Mass Effect 3, Bioware featured animation canceling for the weapon reloads as a design decision. The ammo UI had a large red bar that filled at the exact moment the reload animation could be canceled with a class power. Bioware mentioned multiple times they did this to achieve a flow of gunplay and powers which felt fluid and organic. The feature was inspired by the players discovering that the reload animation of Mass Effect 2 could be cancelled with a melee attack.

I read that the first time. Which doesn't change the fact that animation canceling was not intended functionality in ME2. What Bioware did wasn't that different from what ZOS has done, which is going, "it's a feature, not a bug."

Can’t help but feel like what you’re not reading is that ME3 is the example of it being a feature, not ME2. Bioware fully agreed it was unintentional in ME2.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

Here is what some people don't want you to know about animation canceling abilities:

All instant cast abilities have a global cooldown of 0.8 or 1 second depending on who you ask. When casting an ability you need to wait the global cooldown to pass before casting another ability. Additionally all abilities have an animation cast time which for some instant cast abilities is more than 1 seconds. So if you animation cancel an ability you only need to wait for the global cooldown and not the animation cast time of this ability.

In my oppinion all abilities should be adjusted to have an animation cast time equal or lower than the global cooldown which will decrease the damage output of the top tier players by at least 5-10% which should lower the ceiling.

starkerealm

dday3six wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

todd.curtis_ESO wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

Deheart wrote: »

Its a bug that ESO couldn't fix without a whole lot of problems and so they pretended it was a feature. I still have not been able to deliberately do it, but I am pretty sure I end up doing it without meaning to half to time.

I have seen people do it, and if you can get the timing right, it makes playing way easier. Like soloing group content easier. lol

lol another one of these.

It's 100% truth though. I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game. It's clearly a bug that has been accepted as part of the game because ZOS is unable to fix it.

Bioware did for Mass Effect 3. In Mass Effect 2 it was discovered that with proper timing a melee could be used to cancel the weapon reload animation. This was embraced in ME3 with a visual indication of when players could use a skill to cancel the reload animation.

Animation canceling is part and parcel for most action games because it allows for a more seemless flow of motion. Iirc it was Street Fighter 2, whose combos came unintentionally from animation canceling that started AC widespread usage in gaming.

It feels off in ESO because ZOS tried to cram a more traditional MMO skill bar haphazardly into TES while still making ESO feel like a TES game.

Even in your example, it was something that was discovered...not something intended from launch. Allowing it to stay in the game is just a lazy call from developers imo.

How is something that was discovered in one game, then tuned in a sequel to said game, not something that was supported at launch of the sequel?

Imo, you lacking understanding of the subject matter, and it’s lazy to pretend like you don’t.

He was asking about games intentionally including animation canceling as a design decision. So, for example, something like Skullgirls including animation canceling as a deliberate design decision. (Though, I can't be bothered to check and see if Skullgirls has animation canceling, I'd be surprised if a competitive fighter released after 2010 lacked the feature.)

In Mass Effect 3, Bioware featured animation canceling for the weapon reloads as a design decision. The ammo UI had a large red bar that filled at the exact moment the reload animation could be canceled with a class power. Bioware mentioned multiple times they did this to achieve a flow of gunplay and powers which felt fluid and organic. The feature was inspired by the players discovering that the reload animation of Mass Effect 2 could be cancelled with a melee attack.

I read that the first time. Which doesn't change the fact that animation canceling was not intended functionality in ME2. What Bioware did wasn't that different from what ZOS has done, which is going, "it's a feature, not a bug."

Can’t help but feel like what you’re not reading is that ME3 is the example of it being a feature, not ME2. Bioware fully agreed it was unintentional in ME2.

Go back, and look at the original comment: "I doubt any game developer has ever included animation canceling as an intended "feature" of a game."

While you and I both agree that this statement is false, because some games do include animation canceling as intended functionality. Particularly in the character action genre (so, games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, or Dark Souls), and in the fighting game genre (so, games like the Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter series.) In both cases it has become a persistent element in the genres, though not universal. As I recall, one of the recent Street Fighter releases actually included tutorials on animation canceling. Off hand, I can't tell you which games in those genres do include the mechanic, but it's out there.

However, Mass Effect 3 is not a good example, because even though the developers ended up embracing it, it initially began as a bug in ME2. The thing is, ME3 was running a modified version of Unreal, off the exact same fork as ME2. So, when development started on ME3, the bug came over along with the rest of their previous code base. While they ended up saying, "yeah, I meant to do that," it did, in fact, begin as unintended behavior in ME3, prior to release. In general, animation canceling is not a normal component of shooters. Actually I should probably clarify that. Reload cancels are almost ubiquitous in shooters, however, it's not consistent whether a game will reload the weapon when you start the animation, or when you finish. If it is on starting the reload, weapon switching will usually allow you to skip the full animation. (Most Unreal engine games, for example.)

Ulfgarde

LA-weaving / animation canceling is so easy to get used to that it doesn't matter. A lot of modern-day FPS / MMOs games use some form of animation canceling, so best just to get used to it.

@exeeter702 does a pretty amazing job explaining it to people who don't understand it too well. The only thing that I would say is that block-casting has its use in PvP in that you can also use it to negate the cast time of the ability. Yes, you can mask the telegraph of the attack quite nicely, but it also allows the cast time to be much faster. This means you can have, for instance, dawnbreaker hit much faster while block-casting than it would normally. It's very important for lining up burst. The reason why it won't work in PvE quite as well is because of the GCD, like you said, and how DPS is calculated.

Chronicburn

Thanks for all the info so far, you guys have been very helpful!

My follow up question (keep in mind I play on Xbox) ...

What order would you do these in for max effect?
Instant ability
Normal ability (1 sec cast)
Light attack
Heavy attack
Dodge/block/slam
Weapon swap

Thanks again, this will help me practice a good rotation.

Also, with the limited amount of slots available (assuming magelight morph on both bars) how many would you dedicate for dots as opposed to DD and other abilities?