Can we get at least a small race rebalance passover?

Twohothardware

With the continued nerfs to sustain and healing/health recovery certain races like Khajiit, Nord, and Imperial are falling further behind the meta races like Redguard and Argonian. Khajiit used to be the #1 choice for stam DPS for at least PvE but Redguard has pulled ahead as the best choice there as well due to a larger stam pool and better recovery allowing for more uptime on rotations with fewer heavy attacks. Khajiit is only marginally better dps on paper while being noticeably harder to sustain on while Imperial and Nord are neither.

Khajiit's racials are especially poor for PvP. The bonus to stealth damage is useless on 4 out of the 5 classes in the game that lack Nightblades ability to Cloak and the 8% crit bonus offers less damage than the 10% max stamina on Redguard due to everyone wearing Impenetrable on their armor.

Imperial and Nord both need to be looked at as well because their lack of any Stamina sustain at all and the nerfs to Health Recovery have put them in a spot where their not good for anything but really high health tank builds and even there Argonian is just as tanky. The Imperial's Red Diamond passive gives such a small chance at such a small heal it's not even noticeable and Nord's Rugged passive that gives 6% damage reduction is not even close to actually 6% because of the way it gets calculated when taking damage. Meanwhile Argonian gets 9% max health, 5% increase in healing, and a huge return of all three resources every time you use a potion making it the clear choice for a tanky build at least in PvP.

My suggestion would be to give Khajiit the 6% bonus Stamina it was suppose to get last year before it was pulled during PTS and Imperial and Nord both need a passive that increases sustain or at least increases healing and or blocking if they're just suppose to be tanks.

Saturnana

I was under the impression that races did not have passives based on what would make them most viable in PvP context, but rather on their characteristics throughout the TES games. In which case it makes sense to keep Khajiit as stealthy, stealing cats. Changing that for PvP would be sacrificing lore/RP elements the race is built on, to accommodate for just a portion of the players. From that point of view I'd say leave the passives as they are.

For people who don't care about meta, not having the most optimal race shouldn't be a problem. And for people who DO care about meta, it's easy to point them towards a race change token and have them change their toon to whatever set-up is currently the most ideal for them. Considering that the token costs a fair amount of real (!) money, though, maybe ZOS should look at ways to change races more easily/less costly, instead of tinkering on the races themselves? That would probably be the only way to please both the meta PvPers and the RPers.

Azurya

no real need for this.
we have race change tokens
and if you don´t like that you can raise a new toon in no time today

Twohothardware

Just because there are race change tokens in the game now isn't an excuse for not keeping the races balanced when they change key aspects of the game like they have recently with the nerfs to sustain and health recovery.

They rebalanced them last year and at the time Khajitt received a buff because they also felt it was behind the other races but it wound up getting reverted halfway through the PTS because a few players complained how Khajiit's PvE DPS was even higher when it was already #1. With the nerfs to sustain Khajiit longer has the advantage it once did in PvE DPS while Redguard and Orc both maintain a very noticeable advantage in the current PvP meta.

SodanTok

lnsane wrote: »

I was under the impression that races did not have passives based on what would make them most viable in PvP context, but rather on their characteristics throughout the TES games. In which case it makes sense to keep Khajiit as stealthy, stealing cats. Changing that for PvP would be sacrificing lore/RP elements the race is built on, to accommodate for just a portion of the players. From that point of view I'd say leave the passives as they are.

For people who don't care about meta, not having the most optimal race shouldn't be a problem. And for people who DO care about meta, it's easy to point them towards a race change token and have them change their toon to whatever set-up is currently the most ideal for them. Considering that the token costs a fair amount of real (!) money, though, maybe ZOS should look at ways to change races more easily/less costly, instead of tinkering on the races themselves? That would probably be the only way to please both the meta PvPers and the RPers.

Would not say not having optimal race is not problem for people that do not care about meta. On the contrary. People that know nothing about meta or barely understands it are much more punished by playing bad race for their role (like breton on stam build) or even off meta race (like bosmer or maybe khajiit) compared to redguard. Just the sustain difference is huge. And the damage is impactful too.

The sustain advantage of redguard is actually diminished by capability of players that understand the game. Not the other way.

Asmael

With the continued nerfs to sustain and healing/health recovery certain races like Khajiit are falling further behind the meta races like Redguard and Orc. Khajiit used to be the #1 choice for stam DPS for at least PvE but Redguard has pulled ahead there as well due to a larger stam pool and better sustain allowing for more uptime on rotations with fewer heavy attacks.

Khajiit is the current #1 pick in terms of pure damage if you can sustain it for PvE - which is generally speaking not an issue except for AoE fights due to a (b-0-ring) heavy attack meta.

Even more so since HotR came live I should add.

Khajiit's racials are especially poor for PvP. The bonus to stealth damage is useless on 4 out of the 5 classes in the game and the 8% crit bonus offers less damage than the +6-10% max stamina on other races like Redguard due to everyone wearing Impenetrable on their armor. Because there is two races on the same Alliance with the same Stealthy passive it's my suggestion that Khajiit should lose the Stealthy passive altogether and be given another bonus that gets it's damage or sustain or healing higher and makes it a better suited race across all Stamina classes.

Impen does not equate to critical immunity. A higher critical chance means more windows of opportunity for bursting down opponents, as well as helping your healing as well. It is especially good on heavy armor builds who naturally lack critical chance and are looking to compensate it.

Not saying that they are the best race for PvP, but they are definitely in a much better spot than before, now that stacking max resources for infinite sustain + damage + healing isn't the go-to anymore.

WuffyCerulei

I just want Argonians to be a more viable magicka dps class rather than mostly tanks and healers. Stam have what, 6 races? There's only 3 more magicka-based races, and just 2 have damage bonuses. Not to mention that the best magicka races are boring humans and elves. Argonians can really be anything, though. Their passives really suit any build.

ak_pvp

Imo every race should get a damage/resist I.e. Dummer and one regen.

Would way tone down bis.

idk

Twohothardware wrote: »

With the continued nerfs to sustain and healing/health recovery certain races like Khajiit are falling further behind the meta races like Redguard and Orc. Khajiit used to be the #1 choice for stam DPS for at least PvE but Redguard has pulled ahead there as well due to a larger stam pool and better sustain allowing for more uptime on rotations with fewer heavy attacks.

Khajiit's racials are especially poor for PvP. The bonus to stealth damage is useless on 4 out of the 5 classes in the game and the 8% crit bonus offers less damage than the +6-10% max stamina on other races like Redguard due to everyone wearing Impenetrable on their armor. Because there is two races on the same Alliance with the same Stealthy passive it's my suggestion that Khajiit should lose the Stealthy passive altogether and be given another bonus that gets it's damage or sustain or healing higher and makes it a better suited race across all Stamina classes.

Imperial and Nord both need to be looked at as well because their lack of any Stamina sustain and the nerfs to Health Recovery have put them in a spot where their not good for anything but really high health tank builds.

The variety is good. We don't need all classes basically looking the same. That's what seems to be the premise of this thread. Well, that and OP wants different racial passives.

BrightOblivion

I really wouldn't mind more variety in viable races, particularly for mag. As it stands, I'm looking at races like Bosmer, Imperial, Nord, and Argonian and going "For what would I use you, and what would I gain from doing so, over another race (redguard, khajiit, maybe orc for stam, altmer, dunmer, maybe breton for mag)?"

I have zero desire for my stamina char list to look like so:

This little Redguard is a nightblade
This little Redguard is a sorc
This little Redguard is a templar
This little Redguard is a D(or)K

And this little Redguard cried "Trees, trees, trees, trees" all the way home.

So I'm trying to find a place for each race.

Alpheu5

BrightOblivion wrote: »

I really wouldn't mind more variety in viable races, particularly for mag. As it stands, I'm looking at races like Bosmer, Imperial, Nord, and Argonian and going "For what would I use you, and what would I gain from doing so, over another race (redguard, khajiit, maybe orc for stam, altmer, dunmer, maybe breton for mag)?"

I have zero desire for my stamina char list to look like so:

This little Redguard is a nightblade
This little Redguard is a sorc
This little Redguard is a templar
This little Redguard is a D(or)K

And this little Redguard cried "Trees, trees, trees, trees" all the way home.

So I'm trying to find a place for each race.

Argonians are the only race in the game, though.

BrightOblivion

Alpheu5 wrote: »

BrightOblivion wrote: »

I really wouldn't mind more variety in viable races, particularly for mag. As it stands, I'm looking at races like Bosmer, Imperial, Nord, and Argonian and going "For what would I use you, and what would I gain from doing so, over another race (redguard, khajiit, maybe orc for stam, altmer, dunmer, maybe breton for mag)?"

I have zero desire for my stamina char list to look like so:

This little Redguard is a nightblade
This little Redguard is a sorc
This little Redguard is a templar
This little Redguard is a D(or)K

And this little Redguard cried "Trees, trees, trees, trees" all the way home.

So I'm trying to find a place for each race.

Argonians are the only race in the game, though.

Only if that game is the Hundred Yard Dres Dash. =p

lucky_Sage

why is there argonians fans they are so ugly

Twohothardware

Asmael wrote: »

With the continued nerfs to sustain and healing/health recovery certain races like Khajiit are falling further behind the meta races like Redguard and Orc. Khajiit used to be the #1 choice for stam DPS for at least PvE but Redguard has pulled ahead there as well due to a larger stam pool and better sustain allowing for more uptime on rotations with fewer heavy attacks.

Khajiit is the current #1 pick in terms of pure damage if you can sustain it for PvE - which is generally speaking not an issue except for AoE fights due to a (b-0-ring) heavy attack meta.

Even more so since HotR came live I should add.

Yes on paper Khajiit's can still potentially have the highest PvE DPS due to the crit bonus but most classes and builds require you to heavy attack now and Redguard makes it much easier to sustain due to the Adrenaline passive that restores Stamina on your normal attacks. Redguard gets it's bonus damage from it's +10% max Stamina which also contributes to better sustain. All bonus crit does is increase damage.

[quote=

Asmael wrote: »

Khajiit's racials are especially poor for PvP. The bonus to stealth damage is useless on 4 out of the 5 classes in the game and the 8% crit bonus offers less damage than the +6-10% max stamina on other races like Redguard due to everyone wearing Impenetrable on their armor. Because there is two races on the same Alliance with the same Stealthy passive it's my suggestion that Khajiit should lose the Stealthy passive altogether and be given another bonus that gets it's damage or sustain or healing higher and makes it a better suited race across all Stamina classes.

Impen does not equate to critical immunity. A higher critical chance means more windows of opportunity for bursting down opponents, as well as helping your healing as well. It is especially good on heavy armor builds who naturally lack critical chance and are looking to compensate it.

Not saying that they are the best race for PvP, but they are definitely in a much better spot than before, now that stacking max resources for infinite sustain + damage + healing isn't the go-to anymore.

Sure Impen doesn't equate to crit immunity but wearing all Impen and investing CP into Impen decreases the bonus from Khajiits 8% crit which is why players only shoot for a minimum crit damage number like say 40% and don't build far above that. Right now sustain is what wins in PvP, especially for the other 4 classes that are not Nightblades. And Khajiit is noticeably harder to sustain on when you're losing like 4000+ Stamina on a 40k Stam builid on top of the Adrenaline passive Redguard gets that restores Stamina every 5 seconds on all melee attacks.

And again you have the Khajiit's Stealthy passive line that is useless in both PvE and PvP for 4 out of the 5 classes. If Stealth is a key to the lore for this race then remove the 10% damage bonus when in Stealth and just tie it into the races Cutpurse passive which right now just gives an extra 5% chance to pickpocket, something most players don't even do outside of a rare quest.

Maulkin

I'll make a shout.

Breton Spell Res passive is still pretty useless for a race that gets picked to be mainly a LA Caster. Severely outperformed by both High Elf and Dark Elf in all caster based DPS roles due to their Elemental Damage passives.

Recommend adding Magic Damage bonus to the tune of 4-5%, which is both a new unique passive and one that would make Bretons very good Magicka NBs or Magicka Templars, two classes that heavily rely on Magic Damage. High Elves would still make the best Sorcs and Dark Elves the best DKs.

If you need to nerf Spell Res by 1k or something to balance it, so be it.

Subversus

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I just want Argonians to be a more viable magicka dps class rather than mostly tanks and healers. Stam have what, 6 races? There's only 3 more magicka-based races, and just 2 have damage bonuses. Not to mention that the best magicka races are boring humans and elves. Argonians can really be anything, though. Their passives really suit any build.

Argonians are literally the go-to class for magblade (and mag in general dare I say) in pvp, they're more broken than redguard ever was for stam.

WreckfulAbandon

I love my stealthy passive on my Bosmer but if only one class had to have it, Khajiit hands down.

Twohothardware

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I love my stealthy passive on my Bosmer but if only one class had to have it, Khajiit hands down.

Rework the passive into the Cutpurse perk Khajiit's get which right now only gives a 5% increased chance to pickpocket. Even get rid of the 10% damage bonus from Stealth and just make it about avoiding detection and stealing. Then replace the Stealthy line with something that buffs the race to be more competitive in PvP and when playing the other 4 out of the 5 classes in the game.

NyassaV

My proposed changes are as follows;

Breton spell cost reduction up to 4% from 3%

Dunmer fire resist up to 6% from 3% (rounded as resist values mess with my brain)

Increase Nord max health

Imperial: Reduce max stam down to 8% and Remove Red Diamond passive and give 8% max magicka. The tool tip for imperial used to state it had a bonus to magicka, it was fixed but that doesn't mean lore wise they should have any magical benefit. This would be good for RP reasons and Hybrids

@ZOS_RichLambert

idk

Hollery wrote: »

My proposed changes are as follows;

Breton spell cost reduction up to 4% from 3%

Dunmer fire resist up to 6% from 3% (rounded as resist values mess with my brain)

Increase Nord max health

Imperial: Reduce max stam down to 8% and Remove Red Diamond passive and give 8% max magicka. The tool tip for imperial used to state it had a bonus to magicka, it was fixed but that doesn't mean lore wise they should have any magical benefit. This would be good for RP reasons and Hybrids

@ZOS_RichLambert

Probably neither will happen.

1. Breton cost reduction is fine as is ans your proposal clearly goes against changes Zos recently made.
2. Dunmer fire resist is fine at the current levels. Have done vHoF and vamp 4 on a dunmer without a death from fire.
3. Adding max magicka to imperial would made it so OP. Already second best for tanks post the sustain nerf. The suggested change is not small and for some will be unwelcome. Not to worry, doubt it would get serious consideration.

WuffyCerulei

lucky_Sage wrote: »

why is there argonians fans they are so ugly

Why be a human or a snobby human with pointy ears when you can be a frickin lizard.

WuffyCerulei

Subversus wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I just want Argonians to be a more viable magicka dps class rather than mostly tanks and healers. Stam have what, 6 races? There's only 3 more magicka-based races, and just 2 have damage bonuses. Not to mention that the best magicka races are boring humans and elves. Argonians can really be anything, though. Their passives really suit any build.

Argonians are literally the go-to class for magblade (and mag in general dare I say) in pvp, they're more broken than redguard ever was for stam.

Not broken. Just that magblades have passives that work really well with the Argonian ones, not to mention magblades already have good sustain.

Subversus

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

why is there argonians fans they are so ugly

Why be a human or a snobby human with pointy ears when you can be a frickin lizard.

Yeah why be a human and shoot yourself in the leg when you can have

1) the best sustain a mag race can offer and also a free bar space because you can chug spell power pots equivalent to 200 mag regen
2) extra healing
3) a little max mag
4) 10% more health

I don't see why anyone would play a human either. The ONLY class that needs nerfs is argonian. I wouldn't care (I don't care that redguard is OP for stam) if the race was actually good looking but the fact that I can't play a gecko lizard literally makes me rather shoot myself in the leg than play what's optimal for my build which shouldn't happen with an elder scrolls game.

Saturnana

SodanTok wrote: »

Would not say not having optimal race is not problem for people that do not care about meta. On the contrary. People that know nothing about meta or barely understands it are much more punished by playing bad race for their role (like breton on stam build) or even off meta race (like bosmer or maybe khajiit) compared to redguard. Just the sustain difference is huge. And the damage is impactful too.

The sustain advantage of redguard is actually diminished by capability of players that understand the game. Not the other way.

I understand where you're coming from and agree to a certain extent. Not knowing the limitations or most optimal set-up for your chosen race can set you back in some ways - at least compared to the very talented meta-players. I say can though, because most people not following meta probably care a far deal less about the possible disadvantages they've given themselves. My Bosmer and Khajiit are in no way the most optimal choice for their roles - and they'll probably never make a leaderboard because of it. But I'm not interested in that type of play and so I'm not even trying out for leaderboards and such. If that ever becomes the case, I would probably have to re-roll a toon and start fresh. There's a baby sorc in my list for that occasion, should I ever decide to 'git gud'. At the end of the day, the way I (and other casuals?) play is not really affected by sub-optimal character choices - there's no reason for me to have the best sustain and such. I can make do with what I have. I'm not a PvPer though, so that could make a difference.

Sylphex

I don't know why OP chose khajiit to target with this sort of balance discussion. The only race that really needs a bit of help is Nord, in my opinion. Each race seems to have a decent strength in some aspect of gameplay except for them. And as already mentioned, a lot of the bonuses for each race are based on lore. When it comes to PvP, your options are actually pretty extensive depending on your playstyle. PvE comes down to min/maxing your character so that fights are shorter and therefore more survivable. A few races dominate in PvE for this kind of strategic gameplay.

We have to remember that ESO often struggles between balancing PvE with PvP, and races are one aspect where we can afford to have some unique strengths and weaknesses.

---

Breton is good where it is. Despite it's 1% ap passive, I think you would find Bretons more in PvE as healers or magicka DPS on classes that don't do as much elemental damage (such as a Templar) although are often overlooked. They are a solid middle ground between the sustain of Argonian and the elemental damage of the magicka elven races. And the spell resist is big. They rely on active recovery for sustain (like Redguard), whereas other races rely more on passive recovery.

Redguard are a fantastic melee sustain PvE race, but slot into PvP very easily as well if you like to. If executed perfectly, the third passive will give 317 static stam recovery (not 100% realistic though). Pretty solid for long duels and small scale fights, not so good for bursting or ganking.

Orc is something of a confusing race to me. The third passive seems to contradict the first two, in that the first two seem to gear Orcs slightly toward heavy armor PvP and the third passive seems to push it more in the direction of medium armor. In end game PvE, Orc has no place. Outshined by other races in terms of stamina dps and tanking.

High Elf is the race of magicka sorcerers in both PvE and PvP, without a doubt, and there's a good argument to run altmer on all other magicka dps in PvE (excluding magDK imo).

Wood Elf is a race of PvP bow builds, stealthy combat and ultimate stamina passive recovery. The stealthy passive helps with ganking. You don't need to be melee for sustain like Redguard. It comes with a slight resistance to poison/disease. Where the build really seems to shine is when you're stacking stam recovery such as with Bone Pirate.

Khajiit has to be the best race for the current heavy attack meta in PvE, although what it comes down to is managing to fit in enough heavy attacks in your rotation without compromising your dps. I saw a 3k dps rise when I switched from Redguard to Khajiit on my stamina DK. And 8% crit, like already mentioned, isn't totally useless in PvP. In fact, I quite like that extra damage chance when trying to burst anyone who doesn't stack shields.

Dark Elf nullifies a bit of the fire damage penalty from going vampire, which is pretty typical these days. Make excellent PvP magblade bombers and PvE magDKs.

Argonian equivalent of 204 static recovery to stam/mag in their potion passive, if used off cooldown, excellent sustain, amazing tanks and healers in PvE and PvP. Do they need to be buffed to put out DPS? Hell no.

Nord is the weakest race in the game at the moment, if you ask me. Ice damage is somewhat rare in PvP, even with the addition of wardens. You'd be mistaken for thinking the third passive helps you take 6% less damage whilst tanking, but that's only true if you're wearing 0 armor and not blocking. Since capped resistances and blocking together mitigate around about 80% of incoming damage, the passive only works for the remaining 6% of that final 20% (1.2% damage reduction). They don't appear to be good at anything.

Imperial seems to have lost a lot of its appeal since maxing resources for PvE tanking has taken a dive. They seem to be survivable in PvP if you're trying to tank.

Maulkin

Sylphex wrote: »

Breton is good where it is. Despite it's 1% ap passive, I think you would find Bretons more in PvE as healers or magicka DPS on classes that don't do as much elemental damage (such as a Templar) although are often overlooked. They are a solid middle ground between the sustain of Argonian and the elemental damage of the magicka elven races. And the spell resist is big. They rely on active recovery for sustain (like Redguard), whereas other races rely more on passive recovery.

High Elf is the race of magicka sorcerers in both PvE and PvP, without a doubt, and there's a good argument to run altmer on all other magicka dps in PvE (excluding magDK imo).

So you see no problem with High Elf being the top for everything and Bretons bottom for everything? Sounds a bit like either bias or ignorance to me.

Bretons are the worst magicka DPS race from the 3 available options for every single class. The only magicka DPS weapons in the game are elemental staves. A Magicka DPS Templar is using Wall of Elements, Vampire's Bane (Fire Damage) and Light/Heavy attacks. These make nearly half of his DPS. So a Dunmer or Altmer will easily out-DPS a similarly spec'ed Breton any day of the week. Same goes for NBs and Wardens. The hierarchy is like this:
Magicka DPS
1) High Elf
2) Dark Elf (but top for DKs)
3) Breton

As for healers, they need to have high Magicka Recovery as not running out of juice is more important than an extra 1k on your heals. A 2.5k magicka recovery is pretty standard for healer builds. At that level of Mag Recov the Almer recovery passive scales much better than the cost reduction of the Breton and is thus superior. The Argonian pot drinking passive actually outperforms both for sustain. Thus Breton is again at the bottom of healer mini-league:
Magicka Healer
1) High Elf
2) Argonian
3) Breton

So there is no middle ground like you say. You might as well roll High Elf and be best at everything. And that status also extends to PvP, not just PvE. Where High Elf makes the best magicka Sorcs, NBs, Templars and Wardens in pretty much every build scenario.

That's why I said that adding a 4% Magic Damage bonus to Bretons will at least offset the Elemental Damage of High/Dark Elf passives and make them better or equally good choices for Magicka DPS Templars, NBs and Wardens but still inferior Sorcs and DKs and still inferior healers. Sounds only fair to me.

And by the way, I main High Elf Sorc and have a magicka build of every class...4 of them High Elves and 1 Dark Elf. I'm not saying this because I want my race buffed, I'm saying it because I levelled 4 magicka classes and I never saw a reason to use Breton.

Sylphex wrote: »

Nord is the weakest race in the game at the moment, if you ask me. Ice damage is somewhat rare in PvP, even with the addition of wardens. You'd be mistaken for thinking the third passive helps you take 6% less damage whilst tanking, but that's only true if you're wearing 0 armor and not blocking. Since capped resistances and blocking together mitigate around about 80% of incoming damage, the passive only works for the remaining 6% of that final 20% (1.2% damage reduction). They don't appear to be good at anything.

I believe your calculations are incorrect. While blocking damage reduction is certainly applied before damage mitigation (and thus dampens the effect of damage mitigation while blocking), I'm pretty sure that armour mitigation is applied at the same level as damage mitigation. What I'm saying is that If you pick a Nord and an Argonian and put the same high mitigation Heavy Armor gear on both, the unblocked damage on the Nord will always be 6% less than the Argonian. At every resistance level.

That said, I do agree that they could use some help because they are also bottom of the tanking and stamina DPS leagues with little to no niche. In the past I proposed giving them block cost reduction as passive to bring their sustain closer to the insane Argonian sustain with pots at least as far as tanking is concerned (the Argonian passive is really useful to every build, not just tanks).

zaria

lnsane wrote: »

I was under the impression that races did not have passives based on what would make them most viable in PvP context, but rather on their characteristics throughout the TES games. In which case it makes sense to keep Khajiit as stealthy, stealing cats. Changing that for PvP would be sacrificing lore/RP elements the race is built on, to accommodate for just a portion of the players. From that point of view I'd say leave the passives as they are.

For people who don't care about meta, not having the most optimal race shouldn't be a problem. And for people who DO care about meta, it's easy to point them towards a race change token and have them change their toon to whatever set-up is currently the most ideal for them. Considering that the token costs a fair amount of real (!) money, though, maybe ZOS should look at ways to change races more easily/less costly, instead of tinkering on the races themselves? That would probably be the only way to please both the meta PvPers and the RPers.

An very weak relationship, as in some read the race description and added skills they thought fitted.
This is how it is in Morrowind http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
Lets look at stamina regen, it fit with endurance + Agility and yes Redguard has good +10 here but Bosmer has good regen but lower endurance than Altmer so even with high agility they come out short, Khajiit come in the middle of the two.
You could go after skills but it makes little sense as many races has lots of non combat skills.

However the critical difference between TES and ESO is that the TES racial bonuses is starting bonuses. As you level up the difference goes down and its easier to level lower skills. At level 20 it would hardly be much difference for skills you used.
In ESO its the other way around.

Twohothardware

Sylphex wrote: »

I don't know why OP chose khajiit to target with this sort of balance discussion.

---

Redguard are a fantastic melee sustain PvE race, but slot into PvP very easily as well if you like to. If executed perfectly, the third passive will give 317 static stam recovery (not 100% realistic though). Pretty solid for long duels and small scale fights, not so good for bursting or ganking.

Well i'll tell you why. Specifically in the realm of PvP is where Khajiit and Redguard differ a very noticeable amount. You said the third passive for Redguard, Adrenaline, will give 317 static stamina recovery if executed perfectly. That is on top of the passive 9% stamina recovery Redguard gets for a 2nd passive. That basically cancels out any advantage Khajiit gets from it's passive 10% stamina recovery before you even get to the Adrenaline passive.

Then we have the difference in PvP damage between 8% bonus crit chance (Khajiit) and 10% bonus Stamina (Redguard). In the current PvP meta more often then not about half the players you fight are going to be using shields, most of them being MagSorc's. So right off the bat against half the players you're fighting the bonus crit will equal 0 bonus damage against shields whereas with the Redguard 10% bonus Stamina that increase in damage is effective against all players all the time and increases the size of your heals all the time.

Let's say you have a conservative 35k base Stamina and therefore net roughly an extra 3500 Stamina from the Redguard first passive. ~10 Stamina translates roughly to 1 raw weapon damage so that's an extra ~350 weapon damage. With Khajiit the difference is you're basically running without Stam food and relying on that 8% crit for any damage bonus. That bonus from critting is 0 against shields and against all players is mitigated by varying amounts from everyone running Impen on their armor, Impen bonus sets, and investing CP into Impen.

So Redguard gets effectively the same passive Stamina recovery as Khajiit, an extra 317 static Stamina recovery if you execute melee attacks perfectly from Adrenaline, and an extra 350 weapon damage and better sustain from a larger Stam pool from the additional 10% max Stamina. What advantage does Khajiit have? 8% increased crit chance which is null against shields, mitigated by Impen, and minimized on builds that rely on attacks that deal high damage with fewer hits such as most Two Hand Dizzying Swing builds.

Ladislao

Balance in your understanding will not be as long as racial passives exist. I do not even want to mention how insignificant these bonuses actually are.
But OK, what's stopping you from playing for the race you think is overpowered? Conscience? Race change token introduced long ago. Use it (if it is needed) and win every underpowered race player. If this is indeed so, statistic will force developers to adjust racial passives. But for now this empty reasoning is akin to the fact that sorcs are OP.

FrancisCrawford

Subversus wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

why is there argonians fans they are so ugly

Why be a human or a snobby human with pointy ears when you can be a frickin lizard.

Yeah why be a human and shoot yourself in the leg when you can have

1) the best sustain a mag race can offer and also a free bar space because you can chug spell power pots equivalent to 200 mag regen
2) extra healing
3) a little max mag
4) 10% more health

I don't see why anyone would play a human either. The ONLY class that needs nerfs is argonian. I wouldn't care (I don't care that redguard is OP for stam) if the race was actually good looking but the fact that I can't play a gecko lizard literally makes me rather shoot myself in the leg than play what's optimal for my build which shouldn't happen with an elder scrolls game.

In the game Morrowind Bretons had 50% magicka harm reduction. Some other races weren't nearly that strong.

aeowulf

There are two types of players really, ones that care about BIS over looks/lore and the other careabout looks/lore over BIS.

If you care about BIS more than looks/lore use a race change potion. If you care abou looks/lore more stay as is. If ZOS gave everything to one race, the server would have no one playing anything other than that race.

There are two races that stant out though, argonian is mega strong. Even that 50% swim speed is WAY better than the 1% gold an imperial gets of or the 1% AP a breton <at that 'level' of boosts> & the potion regen is amazing too.

And Nord, the damage redux is a joke becuase it is a multiplactive reduction. If it was additive calculated from the initial damage it would be OP, but for a tank it's around 1-2% after blocking. That's directly comparable to +1-2% incoming healing + 1-2% effective max health.

Also I love the sneak bonus on my Kajiit, and would be irritated if it was removed.