Any plan on making pve less heavy attack based?

Zer0oo

Right now almost all pve build(for trials) are more or less heavy attack spam bots and it is boring as hell. Can we please have enough sustain back to make a light attack rotation work on every class? Or is all hope lost?

kojou

Abandon all hope... There have been countless posts on this topic and no movement to improve sustain.

FluffyReachWitch

Nope, probably not. We were never intended to have virtually infinite resources in the first place.

Destruent

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Nope, probably not. We were never intended to have virtually infinite resources in the first place.

So having infinite ressources with heavy-attack spam is fine but with light attacks it isn't? can't really see a difference tbh....

Zer0oo

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Nope, probably not. We were never intended to have virtually infinite resources in the first place.

The only way to have "infinite" resources in pve was a combination of group play and support. You did not have infinite resources in a "bad" group where the healers were struggling to support the dds. Right now you still have infinite resources, but you don't need the support of a healer you just heavy attack and combat is boring as hell.

NiclasFridholm

WTB non HA meta...

Kneighbors

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Nope, probably not. We were never intended to have virtually infinite resources in the first place.

For many (probably even most) players they were never infinite.. I still had to make heavy attacks from time to time on most of my builds...

In any case I find the current state of the combat really bad. It's too slow. The heavy attacks making lower damage than light attack is something that simply not making any sense. Although the cast time of heavy attack is very long if you stop in between light and heavy you get no resources at all.

If you ask me, the best solution would be to implement medium attacks. Like for fire staff, light attack - 1 fireball, medium attack - 2, heavy - 3 (or one big instead). This will refresh the game and bring a lot of benefits:

1) More sustain from medium attacks.
2) More fun.
3) Something new for bored people like me.

kojou

Kneighbors wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Nope, probably not. We were never intended to have virtually infinite resources in the first place.

For many (probably even most) players they were never infinite.. I still had to make heavy attacks from time to time on most of my builds...

In any case I find the current state of the combat really bad. It's too slow. The heavy attacks making lower damage than light attack is something that simply not making any sense. Although the cast time of heavy attack is very long if you stop in between light and heavy you get no resources at all.

If you ask me, this is the best would me to implement medium attacks. Like for fire staff, light attack - 1 fireball, medium attack - 2, heavy - 3 (or one big instead). This will refresh the game and bring a lot of benefits:

1) More sustain from medium attacks.
2) More fun.
3) Something new for bored people like me.

I really want this as well.

Right now if you hold the mouse button for less than 200 milliseconds it is a light attack, but if you hold it for 300 it is a nerfed heavy attack that does less damage than a light attack. If you hold the button long enough you eventually can get the damage past that of a light attack, but you don't get any resources until a "Full" heavy attack at 1.7 seconds on a flame staff and over 2 seconds on a lightning staff. Other weapons are different a duration but use the same principle.

I can sustain forever without any regen, but watching the heavy attack animation is so boring.

If medium attacks gave partial resources and at least scaled up in damage from a light attack (even if it was on an exponential curve I would be ok) then at least we could control how much heavy attacking we wanted to suffer with and not feel like it was a total loss if we have to block mid-channel.

AlwaysOnFire

Zer0oo wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Nope, probably not. We were never intended to have virtually infinite resources in the first place.

The only way to have "infinite" resources in pve was a combination of group play and support. You did not have infinite resources in a "bad" group where the healers were struggling to support the dds. Right now you still have infinite resources, but you don't need the support of a healer you just heavy attack and combat is boring as hell.

Having friends around to turbo boost you, or having to recharge yourself after expending yourself isn't the same as never being hit by the resource speed bump at all, and Zenimax intends for all characters to have to hit that speed bump once in a while, or have to turn to group play to avoid it. The meta employed to avoid the actual resource management element of combat is not the same as the devs' intended experience and it's within their right to try and urge people to actually play the game they designed, rather than DPS through in spite of the game at a thousand miles per hour via set imbalances, oversights, or exploits.

Mystrius_Archaion

Destruent wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Nope, probably not. We were never intended to have virtually infinite resources in the first place.

So having infinite ressources with heavy-attack spam is fine but with light attacks it isn't? can't really see a difference tbh....

The difference was that light attacks don't restore resources at all and can be weaved with skills. Heavy attacks prevent skills from firing while they are held/channeled.

It's a sustain nerf to nerf dps, but it's painful because that sustain let us use the fun flashy skills more.

Mondini

Zer0oo wrote: »

Right now almost all pve build(for trials) are more or less heavy attack spam bots and it is boring as hell. Can we please have enough sustain back to make a light attack rotation work on every class? Or is all hope lost?

Honestly don't know the problem, PVE is in the best spot it's ever been. It's easy for new players to do end game content, the skill ceiling was lowered. People have more time to focus on mechanics and move out of fire etc as all the have to do is heavy attack. Blocking? No problem, full stam all the time. Shield spamming? Nah no worries, full magicka. Nobody needs orbs anymore either so thats easier for the healers. The vma rotation was boring because it actually required farming gear and having a good rotation vs now where I can just chuck on any old gear and get a free 40k parse on mag sorc. Don't know why you are QQing so much.

f047ys3v3n

Wrobel says holding your staff for 2 seconds is the right amount of time.

Seriously though. They have gone to sooooo much trouble to get people to do that fully charged heavy. I think Kojou was right in his hypothesis that it is all about reducing server load by making folks do the least interaction intensive thing in game a substantial portion of the time. You would think that this, or at least the substantial server load decrease of driving lots of players to quit with the bad combat, might have improved server responsiveness as intended. This does not seem to be the case. Fail on all counts. Well, almost all. You get to hold your staff longer.

Derra

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Wrobel says holding your staff for 2 seconds is the right amount of time.

Why do i have to hold my staff for 2.1s but can swing two weapons in 1.5?

Atleast normalise heavyattack speed (and resource gain) so the now slower weapons can feel a little more responsive.

NiclasFridholm

Mondini wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Right now almost all pve build(for trials) are more or less heavy attack spam bots and it is boring as hell. Can we please have enough sustain back to make a light attack rotation work on every class? Or is all hope lost?

Honestly don't know the problem, PVE is in the best spot it's ever been. It's easy for new players to do end game content, the skill ceiling was lowered. People have more time to focus on mechanics and move out of fire etc as all the have to do is heavy attack. Blocking? No problem, full stam all the time. Shield spamming? Nah no worries, full magicka. Nobody needs orbs anymore either so thats easier for the healers. The vma rotation was boring because it actually required farming gear and having a good rotation vs now where I can just chuck on any old gear and get a free 40k parse on mag sorc. Don't know why you are QQing so much.

Because it is boring AF

STEVIL

Destruent wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Nope, probably not. We were never intended to have virtually infinite resources in the first place.

So having infinite ressources with heavy-attack spam is fine but with light attacks it isn't? can't really see a difference tbh....

Someone else said

"Because it is boring AF"

Well first,lets be clear.

When someone talks about the abundance of pve builds you are talking those done for optimal output in g/t dps mostly.

Those saying its boring blah blah can choose to use more abilities, more la, fewer heavies etc but would need to run different builds with more sustain based sets.

The parsing and testing showed a few changes could shift the sustain needs and bigger changes could make major differences, **but** it found the most optimal dps role pve was keeping the damage sets and damage builds and focusing on DOT and HA heavy rotations and fewer uses of other abilities.

So the answer to "boring as f" etc is that its still your choice. Swap out sets and choices for more sustain in big way and you will get more of the flashy flashy less of the boring but your output of damage will be less, though likely still in the able to beat content success zone.

Like always if you don't like the meta (which is always a small very small subset) go off meta trading a bit of output for a more enjoyable play.

Its a self inflicted wound to be bored by the playstyles you chose over others you find more interesting.

Might not get back to as much ability spam and no HA but definitely can find more to your liking.

NiclasFridholm

STEVIL wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Nope, probably not. We were never intended to have virtually infinite resources in the first place.

So having infinite ressources with heavy-attack spam is fine but with light attacks it isn't? can't really see a difference tbh....

Someone else said

"Because it is boring AF"

Well first,lets be clear.

When someone talks about the abundance of pve builds you are talking those done for optimal output in g/t dps mostly.

Those saying its boring blah blah can choose to use more abilities, more la, fewer heavies etc but would need to run different builds with more sustain based sets.

The parsing and testing showed a few changes could shift the sustain needs and bigger changes could make major differences, **but** it found the most optimal dps role pve was keeping the damage sets and damage builds and focusing on DOT and HA heavy rotations and fewer uses of other abilities.

So the answer to "boring as f" etc is that its still your choice. Swap out sets and choices for more sustain in big way and you will get more of the flashy flashy less of the boring but your output of damage will be less, though likely still in the able to beat content success zone.

Like always if you don't like the meta (which is always a small very small subset) go off meta trading a bit of output for a more enjoyable play.

Its a self inflicted wound to be bored by the playstyles you chose over others you find more interesting.

Might not get back to as much ability spam and no HA but definitely can find more to your liking.

I did go for more sustain and trying to play a way that I enjoy. But Im very competetive by nature and I cant go for scoreruns and have fun atm which makes me sad...

SodanTok

Derra wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Wrobel says holding your staff for 2 seconds is the right amount of time.

Why do i have to hold my staff for 2.1s but can swing two weapons in 1.5?

Atleast normalise heavyattack speed (and resource gain) so the now slower weapons can feel a little more responsive.

Nah. Spending 1/5 of rotation in heavy attack animation (per number of heavy attacks) to get slightly more resources than DW, but deal nearly half the damage is very good gameplay.

I was all aboard the sustain changes for pve and pvp and while it made pvp imo better (tho still impossible to heavy attack with miat addon) in pve nothing really changed. Nobody changed anything on build for more sustain, only switched to heavy attacks while I had to lose big amount of DPS and use regen food, because bow has the worst heavy attacks and redguard is exclusive melee club only.

Destruent

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Nope, probably not. We were never intended to have virtually infinite resources in the first place.

So having infinite ressources with heavy-attack spam is fine but with light attacks it isn't? can't really see a difference tbh....

The difference was that light attacks don't restore resources at all and can be weaved with skills. Heavy attacks prevent skills from firing while they are held/channeled.

It's a sustain nerf to nerf dps, but it's painful because that sustain let us use the fun flashy skills more.

If they intended to nerf DPS, they did a really bad job. Stam-DPS is reaching more or less the same DPS as magicka before morrowind (except sorcs...they were clearly over the top). Overall DPS (in organized raids) shouldn't differ that much compared to OneTamriel. So no, it wasn't a nerf to DPS, but a nerf for gameplay and combat speed while only creating problems we didn't have before...

theamazingx

Mondini wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Right now almost all pve build(for trials) are more or less heavy attack spam bots and it is boring as hell. Can we please have enough sustain back to make a light attack rotation work on every class? Or is all hope lost?

Honestly don't know the problem, PVE is in the best spot it's ever been. It's easy for new players to do end game content, the skill ceiling was lowered. People have more time to focus on mechanics and move out of fire etc as all the have to do is heavy attack. Blocking? No problem, full stam all the time. Shield spamming? Nah no worries, full magicka. Nobody needs orbs anymore either so thats easier for the healers. The vma rotation was boring because it actually required farming gear and having a good rotation vs now where I can just chuck on any old gear and get a free 40k parse on mag sorc. Don't know why you are QQing so much.

I don't know what you're talking about. Heavy attack rotations reduce mobility and make reactive blocking punish you more than before. You don't have full resources to shield and block all the time, you need to heavies to have resources at all. That's the whole point. A clunkier rotation to get the same sustain. And I can't imagine how you find the dot dot heavy magsorc meta less "boring" than a vma rotation. The vma dw grind was boring, but so is the vma staff grind that contributes a ton to the Sorc heavy rotation, and neither will matter when CWC drops. As for the rotations itself, I hopped on my magsorc for Rakkhat yesterday and was half asleep by pad 2. Great, you can afk a 40k parse, why is that a good thing exactly?

kojou

theamazingx wrote: »

Mondini wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Right now almost all pve build(for trials) are more or less heavy attack spam bots and it is boring as hell. Can we please have enough sustain back to make a light attack rotation work on every class? Or is all hope lost?

Honestly don't know the problem, PVE is in the best spot it's ever been. It's easy for new players to do end game content, the skill ceiling was lowered. People have more time to focus on mechanics and move out of fire etc as all the have to do is heavy attack. Blocking? No problem, full stam all the time. Shield spamming? Nah no worries, full magicka. Nobody needs orbs anymore either so thats easier for the healers. The vma rotation was boring because it actually required farming gear and having a good rotation vs now where I can just chuck on any old gear and get a free 40k parse on mag sorc. Don't know why you are QQing so much.

I don't know what you're talking about. Heavy attack rotations reduce mobility and make reactive blocking punish you more than before. You don't have full resources to shield and block all the time, you need to heavies to have resources at all. That's the whole point. A clunkier rotation to get the same sustain. And I can't imagine how you find the dot dot heavy magsorc meta less "boring" than a vma rotation. The vma dw grind was boring, but so is the vma staff grind that contributes a ton to the Sorc heavy rotation, and neither will matter when CWC drops. As for the rotations itself, I hopped on my magsorc for Rakkhat yesterday and was half asleep by pad 2. Great, you can afk a 40k parse, why is that a good thing exactly?

Because that is apparently dynamic game play and better for the overall health of the game.

Destruent

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

Mondini wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Right now almost all pve build(for trials) are more or less heavy attack spam bots and it is boring as hell. Can we please have enough sustain back to make a light attack rotation work on every class? Or is all hope lost?

Honestly don't know the problem, PVE is in the best spot it's ever been. It's easy for new players to do end game content, the skill ceiling was lowered. People have more time to focus on mechanics and move out of fire etc as all the have to do is heavy attack. Blocking? No problem, full stam all the time. Shield spamming? Nah no worries, full magicka. Nobody needs orbs anymore either so thats easier for the healers. The vma rotation was boring because it actually required farming gear and having a good rotation vs now where I can just chuck on any old gear and get a free 40k parse on mag sorc. Don't know why you are QQing so much.

I don't know what you're talking about. Heavy attack rotations reduce mobility and make reactive blocking punish you more than before. You don't have full resources to shield and block all the time, you need to heavies to have resources at all. That's the whole point. A clunkier rotation to get the same sustain. And I can't imagine how you find the dot dot heavy magsorc meta less "boring" than a vma rotation. The vma dw grind was boring, but so is the vma staff grind that contributes a ton to the Sorc heavy rotation, and neither will matter when CWC drops. As for the rotations itself, I hopped on my magsorc for Rakkhat yesterday and was half asleep by pad 2. Great, you can afk a 40k parse, why is that a good thing exactly?

Because that is apparently dynamic game play and better for the overall health of the game.

Lol, channels and heavy-attacks are not dynamic gameplay, they are slow and boring gameplay...

clocksstoppe

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Nope, probably not. We were never intended to have virtually infinite resources in the first place.

I have infinite resources though, the rotation is just more boring now..

Lucky28

Hopefully. the most fun recent patch for both PvE and PvP was the homestead patch imo. Morrowind made things boring in PvE and extremely hard to find good fights in PvP.

Mojmir

We killed things faster then they can develop, buff developer insight and gameplay not nerf playerbase

Xvorg

Derra wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Wrobel says holding your staff for 2 seconds is the right amount of time.

Why do i have to hold my staff for 2.1s but can swing two weapons in 1.5?

Atleast normalise heavyattack speed (and resource gain) so the now slower weapons can feel a little more responsive.

Because of range, you knw, the melee playing style is more risky... dadadadadadadada

idk

Change one jewelry glyph to regen. That'll reduce the heavy attacks led rotation.

Don't forget to grab those orbs. Many magicka were used to getting regen from others grabbing orbs and probably have a bigger challenge adjusting.

Destruent

idk wrote: »

Change one jewelry glyph to regen. That'll reduce the heavy attacks led rotation.

Don't forget to grab those orbs. Many magicka were used to getting regen from others grabbing orbs and probably have a bigger challenge adjusting.

Swapping to regen will lower your DPS more than heavy-attacks do and grabbing orbs is just annoying...usually the synergy fades away when you press "X" and you don't get anything but loose time/DPS...

kojou

idk wrote: »

Change one jewelry glyph to regen. That'll reduce the heavy attacks led rotation.

Don't forget to grab those orbs. Many magicka were used to getting regen from others grabbing orbs and probably have a bigger challenge adjusting.

I don't think anyone on this thread is asking how to adjust. Most of the names of the posters are ones I recognize as long term players.

We know how to adjust, the problem is we don't like the new play style.

Gilliamtherogue

Mondini wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Right now almost all pve build(for trials) are more or less heavy attack spam bots and it is boring as hell. Can we please have enough sustain back to make a light attack rotation work on every class? Or is all hope lost?

Honestly don't know the problem, PVE is in the best spot it's ever been. It's easy for new players to do end game content, the skill ceiling was lowered. People have more time to focus on mechanics and move out of fire etc as all the have to do is heavy attack. Blocking? No problem, full stam all the time. Shield spamming? Nah no worries, full magicka. Nobody needs orbs anymore either so thats easier for the healers. The vma rotation was boring because it actually required farming gear and having a good rotation vs now where I can just chuck on any old gear and get a free 40k parse on mag sorc. Don't know why you are QQing so much.

That's funny, I've never seen the PvE community as dead as it currently is throughout the entire game's life. I saw more people doing trials and having fun in the year long content drought between SO and Maw than I've seen since Morrowind. End game PvE was at its peak in One Tamriel and Homestead in terms of participation and enjoyment.

idk

Destruent wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Change one jewelry glyph to regen. That'll reduce the heavy attacks led rotation.

Don't forget to grab those orbs. Many magicka were used to getting regen from others grabbing orbs and probably have a bigger challenge adjusting.

Swapping to regen will lower your DPS more than heavy-attacks do and grabbing orbs is just annoying...usually the synergy fades away when you press "X" and you don't get anything but loose time/DPS...

Odd how that works. The difference is fairly slight and OP was wanting to be less dependent on HA. I'm aware of top trial players who have gone the way I suggested.

While grabbing orbs has been more of a challenge thx to unknown changes Zos made a couple months ago. For many grabbing the synergy is learning curve to begin with post Morrowind. It's probably better to figure out how to grab the orbs smoother than to merely dismiss them because it's a little challenging.

NyassaV

"Medium' Attacks need to not be a huge DPS loss and restore smaller amounts of resources