Change to Sorcerer Dark Magic Ability Rune Prison & Its Morps

Shadowshire

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
From OP #18 in the PTS Patch Notes v 3.2.0 (Clockwork City)

Sorcerer

Dark Magic
....

Rune Prison: This ability and its morphs are no longer 30-second disorients. Instead, they are 2.5-second stuns that cannot be blocked or dodged, and they can be placed on multiple targets.

Rune Cage (Rune Prison morph): This morph now deals damage to the enemy if the stun lasts its full duration.
The Defensive Rune morph continues to place a buff on you that will stun the next enemy that damages you.

Developer Comments: Similar to Petrify, we wanted to change this disorient into a stun while retaining its current functionality to make useful in more situations.

Good intentions, but incomplete implementation (to characterize it politely).

Without a cool-down of at least 5 - 10 seconds following each usage, a Sorcerer can effectively cast Rune Prison repeatedly at the same target, keeping the target stunned until the target is killed.

Even with a cool-down that is too short, two or more Sorcerers will coordinate their casting of Rune Prison so that when the Rune Prison stun cast by one expires, the other casts Rune Prison to stun the target again as soon as possible. (I am not familiar with Petrify, so whether it can be used in the same way, or in this combination with the new Rune Prison, I don't know.)

"Chain stunning" should never be possible in the course of play, especially in PvP. It is a fundamentally unfair strategy which essentially renders the opposing player helpless. It is tantamount to kicking them out of the game.

So, I recommend the following:

(1) Implement a "cool-down" for Rune Prison of at least 5 - 10 seconds so that it cannot be used against the same player character, or against multiple player characters, in rapid succession.

(2) Alternatively: a player character stunned by Rune Prison should be immune to further stuns by Rune Prison for at least 5 - 10 seconds after the stun expires.

(3) It should be possible for a player character to dodge the Rune Prison stun, and "blocking" the caster disrupts and prevents casting Rune Prison (whether other Magicka abilities also) while the player character blocks.

FWIW: Blizzard Entertainment permitted "chain stunning" in World of Warcraft for a very long time, until the continuous barrage of protests and complaints from players eventually persuaded the developers to swallow their pride and introduce mitigations.

By the way, the reason that Rune Prison is not used much is that the disorient is broken if and when the target receives any damage any direct damage. First, I would bet that probably every dungeon boss, if not also at least one whole class of mobs, is immune to Rune Prison. Second, it can be difficult to avoid damaging the imprisoned NPC or player character, for example, while initiating an ability that has an AoE. Third, in any given group at any given time, ordinarily there is some knucklehead who does not, perhaps cannot, recognize the Rune Prison -- or doesn't care -- and does something to damage the prisoner (whether intentionally or accidentally).

Thank-you for your time and attention to this matter. Not that I actually believe that the ZOS developers will do anything to change their implementation before the software is released "live". But if they do change it, that doesn't mean that the change will be in the software that is released "live".

grannas211

So you come on the test forum and post something without testing it. Got it.

Also someone already tried to explain to you that you are immune to further 7 seconds after being stunned.

But copypasta away. Nerf sorcs and all that. Carry on.

Speed_Kills

Cc immunity is a thing.

bebynnag

^^ what these 2 said

Biro123

^ and those three.

It isn't tied to the skill, but the target. When a target gets stunned they get a 7 second CC immunity buff, which stops them getting stunned again.
Yeah, it can be a bit buggy, but the solution would be to fix the bug, not to remove all stuns.

Personally I think that this new ability will be difficult to use and very situational, since every frag will give them cc-immunity, and also cc from other friendlies. You'd have a very small window to try to use it... Good look timing that with curse hitting when there are other friendlies involved!

Zer0oo

Wait what? Are you telling use cc immunity is broken for this skill or did you just write something without knowing cc immunity exists?

Biro123

Me? No, I just mean its a bit buggy currently on live.

Chilly-McFreeze

Besides completely ignoring the concept the other posters have mentioned, the last thing I want to see on a sorcerer is another imposed cooldown (in the shadow of streak). Also, if you don't know it) Rune Prison doesn't breaks on "any damage".

Oh and btw, stunning people until they die is a legit concept in pvp.

ak_pvp

I don't like the change. Sorc has DKs main toolkit now. Plus other stuns.

But your comment is so, so wrong.

Twohothardware

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Besides completely ignoring the concept the other posters have mentioned, the last thing I want to see on a sorcerer is another imposed cooldown (in the shadow of streak). Also, if you don't know it) Rune Prison doesn't breaks on "any damage".

Oh and btw, stunning people until they die is a legit concept in pvp.

Sorc already has the ability to stun with Streak as well as using Mines. Giving the class a third stun thats effectively the same as a DK's, which was the devs rational, makes no sense at all. Templar and Warden are the classes that need better functioning stuns, not MagSorc, the class that's making up 90% of Magicka in PvP.

Chilly-McFreeze

Twohothardware wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Besides completely ignoring the concept the other posters have mentioned, the last thing I want to see on a sorcerer is another imposed cooldown (in the shadow of streak). Also, if you don't know it) Rune Prison doesn't breaks on "any damage".

Oh and btw, stunning people until they die is a legit concept in pvp.

Sorc already has the ability to stun with Streak as well as using Mines. Giving the class a third stun thats effectively the same as a DK's, which was the devs rational, makes no sense at all. Templar and Warden are the classes that need better functioning stuns, not MagSorc, the class that's making up 90% of Magicka in PvP.

Don't really know why you quoted me but however:

I didn't said this changes is needed or even wanted by me or other sorcs. I'm no friend of abilities without counters. But I'm far less a fan of cooldowns and increasing active ability costs when they only apply to one class. Further on I wrote that RP already is unblockable and corrected OP's statement that RP breaks "on any damage", which it doesn't.

But no need to argue, I know your opinion on sorcs.

Also I don't know on which server you play but on PC EU it's surely not 90% of mag toons, I dare to say I see far more mDK and magplars. Especially on the stam side sorcs are a very rare sight nowadays. Can't say how it is at other servers. Which are you on?

But this all doesn't matter. This thread is about Rune Cage. And OP clearly hasn't grasp the concept of CC immunity, therefore rendering his initial post useless.

Twohothardware

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Besides completely ignoring the concept the other posters have mentioned, the last thing I want to see on a sorcerer is another imposed cooldown (in the shadow of streak). Also, if you don't know it) Rune Prison doesn't breaks on "any damage".

Oh and btw, stunning people until they die is a legit concept in pvp.

Sorc already has the ability to stun with Streak as well as using Mines. Giving the class a third stun thats effectively the same as a DK's, which was the devs rational, makes no sense at all. Templar and Warden are the classes that need better functioning stuns, not MagSorc, the class that's making up 90% of Magicka in PvP.

I see far more mDK and magplars. Especially on the stam side sorcs are a very rare sight nowadays. Can't say how it is at other servers. Which are you on?

I'm on PS4 so I'm sure the class makeup differs than on PC where players are more interested in trying to make other classes and loadouts work but mDK's and mWardens are a rare sight in PvP here and there's only a couple good Magplars that I still run into with the rest just being healers. Then throw in a handful Magblade bombers. Everyone else on Magicka builds, the overwhelming majority, are MagSorcs.

I just got on last night for a bit after not being on since Destiny 2 dropped and the entire time I was fighting groups of MagSorcs running together. The class is just too effective right now because it allows you to quickly nuke people from range then jet off with Streak if you get outnumbered. Mages Wrath also makes it easy to steal lots of kills.

Biro123

More and more often, I find that those who think mag sorcs are overpowered are on console.

As long as miats exists, there will always be imbalances between platforms.

If anything, this change will have more impact on PC than on console as it will be able to guarantee the odd frag hit.
But you probably already get them on console, since you're not told when to dodge.

Shadowshire

grannas211 wrote: »

....
Also someone already tried to explain to you that you are immune to further 7 seconds after being stunned.

There is no mention of being immune after being stunned in the Patch Notes, and I don't recall that it is in the tooltip for the changed ability, either. Your reply is the first in this discussion, so your allegation that "someone already tried to explain to you" is simply hostile, irrelevant, and stupid ad hominem rhetoric which has no merit.

By the way, although I seldom engage in TESO PvP, both of my main characters are Sorcerers, and have no axe to grind with regard to any particular character Class. I have used the current implementation of Rune Prison in PvE, and have found it to be a waste of a space on the Ability Bar for the reasons that I stated.

That said,, I had plenty of experience with PvP in World of Warcraft,, where almost every class had a "stun" ability and "chain stunning" became a customary routine. I suppose that it appeals to the sadistic fetish of some players who delight in inflicting pain and suffering upon a victim while that other person cannot avoid it, stop it, or fight back. Of course, the sadist has very little fear of suffering any adverse consequences for their actions. There's something about the ordinary anonymity of being "online" that brings out the worst in many people -- all the more when the context is a fantasy instead of the reality in which the flesh lives. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Lylith

Speed_Kills wrote: »

Cc immunity is a thing.

when it works, yes.

when it doesn't, which is much too often, it's just ***.

Lexxypwns

If you don't realize CC immunity exists then you should not be posting on balance topics, sorry.

Shadowshire

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

.... Also, if you don't know it) Rune Prison doesn't breaks on "any damage".

Oh and btw, stunning people until they die is a legit concept in pvp.

First, Rune Prison does break on any direct damage that the target receives, and I have amended the OP to be more specific. As to what "direct damage" currently includes became murky in discussion about the new "star" which ZOS implemented in the Attronach constellation in the Morrowind expansion -- IIRC, "Master-at-Arms" is its name. ZOS and others use terms such as "direct damage" and "crowd control" without ever defining them. They seem to believe there is some universal MMORPG jargon with defined common meanings, which, frankly, exists only in their respective imaginations.

"Legit" is slang for "legitimate" which refers to "legal". For what it is worth to you, the US Military Code of Justice explicitly states that killing an enemy person who is unconscious or otherwise unable to fight, thus presents no evident threat, or one who has unequivocally surrendered, is an act of murder, punishable by execution of the killer.

"Stunning people until they die" (chain-stunning) may be a "concept" in PvP. Whether it is desirable and acceptable, or instead undesirable and contrary to fair play, is (of course) a matter of opinion. You may like it, but ordinarily I don't like it even when I'm the one using it.

dpencil1

@Shadowshire
@grannas211 was referring to my reply to you posting the same thing as the OP in the official feedback thread. Of course CC immunity wouldn't be in the patch notes. Nothing was changed with it. It remains a feature that has existed in the game for a long long time (and doesn't need to be spelled out in every skill tooltip). You are providing feedback clearly without actually playing because you don't even understand how the mechanics of the skills you are complaining about work. Defending your ignorance by insulting others is not going to help your case. Better to admit that you were unaware of CC immunity and be done with it.

Lylith

Lexxypwns wrote: »

If you don't realize CC immunity exists then you should not be posting on balance topics, sorry.

ofc it exists, but does it work reliably?

*** no.

dpencil1

@Lylith
Please don't conflate deliberate balance changes with bugs. The OP is not claiming chain stunning is a bug. He thinks it's a deliberate choice by the dev team, appearantly unaware that CC immunity is even a thing. That's very different from complaining about its "reliability."

Lylith

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Lylith
Please don't conflate deliberate balance changes with bugs. The OP is not claiming chain stunning is a bug. He thinks it's a deliberate choice by the dev team, appearantly unaware that CC immunity is even a thing. That's very different from complaining about its "reliability."

fair enough.

but i have problems with the smug 'cc immunity' response when it works for *** for some of us who don't have consistently ideal connections and have experienced the joys of permastun on numerous occasions.

fwiw, from o/p:

"Chain stunning" should never be possible in the course of play, especially in PvP. It is a fundamentally unfair strategy which essentially renders the opposing player helpless. It is tantamount to kicking them out of the game.

dpencil1

@Lylith
Sure. I don't think anyone is disputing the idea that chain stunning is bad and shouldn't be in the game. That's why CC immunity exists. Now if CC immunity has problems with working whether because of lag, bugs, etc. That's something that needs to continue to be improved. This has nothing at all to do with the OP's slandering of Rune Prison. That skill is not to blame for whatever deficiencies exist with CC immunity as such. The OP's premise is therefore baseless and invalid. They or you can make a new thread specifically calling the devs to further action with regard to CC immunity's consistency. They are not the same topic.

Lylith

rune prison should've been left alone, imho. it needs no 'improvement' or adjustment. it's just another 'fix' to something that isn't broken.

otoh, cc chaining should be fixed.

dpencil1

Yeah, I agree. I enjoyed using Defensive Rune on my Overload buff bar, and prefer a long disorient over a short stun. Too bad.

Feanor

Is this thread for real?

Chilly-McFreeze

Shadowshire wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

.... Also, if you don't know it) Rune Prison doesn't breaks on "any damage".

Oh and btw, stunning people until they die is a legit concept in pvp.

First, Rune Prison does break on any direct damage that the target receives, and I have amended the OP to be more specific. As to what "direct damage" currently includes became murky in discussion about the new "star" which ZOS implemented in the Attronach constellation in the Morrowind expansion -- IIRC, "Master-at-Arms" is its name. ZOS and others use terms such as "direct damage" and "crowd control" without ever defining them. They seem to believe there is some universal MMORPG jargon with defined common meanings, which, frankly, exists only in their respective imaginations.

"Legit" is slang for "legitimate" which refers to "legal". For what it is worth to you, the US Military Code of Justice explicitly states that killing an enemy person who is unconscious or otherwise unable to fight, thus presents no evident threat, or one who has unequivocally surrendered, is an act of murder, punishable by execution of the killer.

"Stunning people until they die" (chain-stunning) may be a "concept" in PvP. Whether it is desirable and acceptable, or instead undesirable and contrary to fair play, is (of course) a matter of opinion. You may like it, but ordinarily I don't like it even when I'm the one using it.

1 paragraph) yes. I know. There is too much inconsistency in this game. Especially with flurry that doesn't proc most "on melee" procs.

2) ok. Send me a warning the next time I shoot at someone with my thunderstick when they are hanging in a parachute.

All jokes aside. You haven't understood pvp if you stop attacking someone who is affected by a hard cc. Running people dry on stamina through CC to render them unable to dodge, heal, block, shield up or fight back is the most usual tactic in prolonged fights against anyone with good defense.

Of course you can slap someone in the face with a glove and fight on a gentleman's agreement but see how far that gets you in cyrodiil. What's next? Complaining about being ganked? Or rooted? Or stunned? Oh, wait...

Checkmath

Sorcerer already has plenty if ways to stun enemies with streak and crystal frag. Additionally they got two sources to root enemies. I dont think now a hard cc likes the dk's petrify is needed for sorcs. Actually its a fair skill on a dk, since they can put pressure on enemies with petrify and all their dots, als their combo with meteor is pretty strong. I dont want sorcs to have this possibility too to land a meteor, a crystal frag and course together on a stunned target. Please leave this skill as it is.

Sharee

Checkmath wrote: »

Sorcerer already has plenty if ways to stun enemies with streak and crystal frag. Additionally they got two sources to root enemies. I dont think now a hard cc likes the dk's petrify is needed for sorcs. Actually its a fair skill on a dk, since they can put pressure on enemies with petrify and all their dots, als their combo with meteor is pretty strong. I dont want sorcs to have this possibility too to land a meteor, a crystal frag and course together on a stunned target. Please leave this skill as it is.

What can a sorc do with the new rune prison what he couldn't already do with the old one?

I mean, the old one was a disorient that went through block, the new one is a stun that goes through block. Literally the only difference between them is that the new one does not break on damage. But since everyone uses break free anyway as soon as they get CC-ed, for all practical purposes they function identically.

Take the meteor+frag+curse on a stunned target. You can already do that with the old rune prison, except the target is disoriented instead of stunned. The practical difference is null.

Checkmath

Exactely, the difference is the free breaking free if you get dameged. In a real fight, the old skill is not used, because there is always damage around. Poison and all dots already break the base skill and even a light attack breaks the morph on live. Thats why a real stun like frags, streak and the atro are reliable and therefore used. To make it a reall hard cc is something different and a bit too much for a sorc.

Zer0oo

Checkmath wrote: »

Exactely, the difference is the free breaking free if you get dameged. In a real fight, the old skill is not used, because there is always damage around. Poison and all dots already break the base skill and even a light attack breaks the morph on live. Thats why a real stun like frags, streak and the atro are reliable and therefore used. To make it a reall hard cc is something different and a bit too much for a sorc.

Guess what class has not a singel dot that will stick on a target and already has 2 other hard CCs in their normal pvp build.

Feanor

Checkmath wrote: »

Exactely, the difference is the free breaking free if you get dameged. In a real fight, the old skill is not used, because there is always damage around. Poison and all dots already break the base skill and even a light attack breaks the morph on live. Thats why a real stun like frags, streak and the atro are reliable and therefore used. To make it a reall hard cc is something different and a bit too much for a sorc.

Congrats. You described why the offensive morph was useless. So let's better keep skills useless. Because Sorc OP.