Being punished for subscribing

anitajoneb17_ESO

Blackleopardex wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

So many post like this. I have one thing to say to all of them: It's called RANDOM for a reason, if you wanna have the RANDOM reward, deal with ANY dungeon you get. And if you are gonna come cry on the forum after getting a RANDOM dungeon you don't like then stop q for RANDOM dungeons!!!! DAMN!!! There is a select system ffs............

This isn't about RANDOM or people not accepting RANDOM. It's about non-subscribers getting a much better chance at RANDOM than subscribers. Everyone should be equal when facing RNG and that's not the case here.

Seems so to me. Leveld many chars and always q for dungeon as a I run around, I have never noticed a higher chance for getting a DLC, I get them to sure but not extra often no. I think this is more about people remembering only when they get DLC? :P Or not?

Check @Magdalina 's post above. She explained it very well. It's maths, not feeling, memory or interpretation.

So it has nothing with some people that q specifically for these dungeon? You do known that you get get in group with people that have specific dungeon when you have random? I don't see no math(after quickly looking)... I might be wrong here but I lack proof that it actually is like this??

Let's say you're level 10, right ?
So if you queue for random normal, your chances will look like this :
NON SUBSCRIBER :
- Fungal Grotto 1 & 2
- Spindleclutch 1 & 2
- Banished Cells 1 & 2
=> total dungeons the RNG can choose from : 6 - chances to get a DLC dungeon = zero.
SUBSCRIBER :
- Fungal Grotto 1 & 2
- Spindleclutch 1 & 2
- Banished Cells 1 & 2
- White Gold Tower
- Imperial City Prison
- Ruins of Mazzatun
- Cradle of Shadows
- BloodRoot Forge
- Falkreath Hold
=> total dungeons the RNG can choose from : 12. Chances to get a DLC dungeon = 50% .

So it's 50% risk to end up in a DLC dungeon with a freshly created character for subscribers, versus ZERO risk for non-subscribers.
It's math. Even if the RNG is affected by the choices of people queuing up for non-random, pre-chosen dungeons, the risk of getting a DLC dungeon is still SOMETHING for subscribers versus ZERO for non-subscribers.

Blackleopardex

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

So many post like this. I have one thing to say to all of them: It's called RANDOM for a reason, if you wanna have the RANDOM reward, deal with ANY dungeon you get. And if you are gonna come cry on the forum after getting a RANDOM dungeon you don't like then stop q for RANDOM dungeons!!!! DAMN!!! There is a select system ffs............

This isn't about RANDOM or people not accepting RANDOM. It's about non-subscribers getting a much better chance at RANDOM than subscribers. Everyone should be equal when facing RNG and that's not the case here.

Seems so to me. Leveld many chars and always q for dungeon as a I run around, I have never noticed a higher chance for getting a DLC, I get them to sure but not extra often no. I think this is more about people remembering only when they get DLC? :P Or not?

Check @Magdalina 's post above. She explained it very well. It's maths, not feeling, memory or interpretation.

So it has nothing with some people that q specifically for these dungeon? You do known that you get get in group with people that have specific dungeon when you have random? I don't see no math(after quickly looking)... I might be wrong here but I lack proof that it actually is like this??

Let's say you're level 10, right ?
So if you queue for random normal, your chances will look like this :
NON SUBSCRIBER :
- Fungal Grotto 1 & 2
- Spindleclutch 1 & 2
- Banished Cells 1 & 2
=> total dungeons the RNG can choose from : 6 - chances to get a DLC dungeon = zero.
SUBSCRIBER :
- Fungal Grotto 1 & 2
- Spindleclutch 1 & 2
- Banished Cells 1 & 2
- White Gold Tower
- Imperial City Prison
- Ruins of Mazzatun
- Cradle of Shadows
- BloodRoot Forge
- Falkreath Hold
=> total dungeons the RNG can choose from : 12. Chances to get a DLC dungeon = 50% .

So it's 50% risk to end up in a DLC dungeon with a freshly created character for subscribers, versus ZERO risk for non-subscribers.
It's math. Even if the RNG is affected by the choices of people queuing up for non-random, pre-chosen dungeons, the risk of getting a DLC dungeon is still SOMETHING for subscribers versus ZERO for non-subscribers.

Ok I stand corrected. I forgot that the base game dungeons have a level lock... my bad. Then ok I agree the level lock should be removed.

Blackleopardex

Ups made extra post here, can't delete

anitajoneb17_ESO

Blackleopardex wrote: »

Ok I stand corrected. I forgot that the base game dungeons have a level lock... my bad. Then ok I agree the level lock should be removed.

That would sure reduce the impact, but it still would be SOME RISK versus ZERO RISK.
I'm not crying "justice" here, I'm crying because it makes no sense. It makes no sense at all that subscribers are being put at disadvantage versus non-subscribers.

It's going to get much worse with CWC and the transmutation system. People will farm random vet dungeons like crazy, for the crystals. Farming is all about time and efficiency. Now look at the speedrun achievements : 20 minutes for all base game dungeons, and frankly you don't even need to hurry to beat them. 45 minutes for vICP, and you need to hurry up and have a good group to beat it.
Now do you think it's fine that non-subscribers will ALWAYS be able to farm their crystals in easy, 10 minute vet instances, while ESO+ players will have to beat 45-minute-content for the same chance at 1 crystal ? It's a very significant disadvantage thrown at subscribers' face, and I could see players unsubbing over this. Not out of anger, but for practical reasons.

I still think the most sensible thing to do is to remove DLC dungeons from randoms entirely.

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I still think the most sensible thing to do is to remove DLC dungeons from randoms entirely.

I'd stop doing randoms then XD Though I realize I'm a minority here. Imo they need to
1)rework the current level lock - either unlock ALL(non vet, obviously) dungeons at level 10 or make a more sensible level gradation, like move all dungeons II and dlc dungeons in lvl 45+ area
2)add extra reward for dlc random dungeons. Double xp, double the items in the rewards mail...double the crystals. The latter one would actually provide a really good incentive for people to actually run vet dlc dungeons.

Of course both these options are way too sensible for ZOS to even consider.

Edit: 2.5)If they were to implement extra rewards for random vet dlc's then they could introduce a non-dlc only/dlc only/any dungeon toggle there as well; if they do this under the current system, 99.99% will just always choose "non dlc only", but with the promise of that extra reward, things could get a bit more interesting there.

Krayzie

90% of my random dungeons at 660 are failed wgt/icp/mazzatun

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I still think the most sensible thing to do is to remove DLC dungeons from randoms entirely.

I'd stop doing randoms then XD Though I realize I'm a minority here. Imo they need to
1)rework the current level lock - either unlock ALL(non vet, obviously) dungeons at level 10 or make a more sensible level gradation, like move all dungeons II and dlc dungeons in lvl 45+ area
2)add extra reward for dlc random dungeons. Double xp, double the items in the rewards mail...double the crystals. The latter one would actually provide a really good incentive for people to actually run vet dlc dungeons.

Good suggestions too. I'd be fine with that.

I actually made a specific thread about this issue on the PTS section https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/372787/transmutation-crystal-random-vet-dungeons-and-eso

you may want to add them there too...

FloppyTouch

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

neal_brasier wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Did a random daily vet was BF saw a lvl 15 and just left the group. This needs to stop no low lvl player should get vet dlc dungeons

You can't do vet dungeons till you're level 50 so I seriously doubt that you got grouped with a level 15

DLC you can learn ur facts

You cannot enter a VETERAN dungeon with a pre-vet character, DLC dungeon or not.

Pls stop and learn ur facts ffs

anitajoneb17_ESO

FloppyTouch wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

neal_brasier wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Did a random daily vet was BF saw a lvl 15 and just left the group. This needs to stop no low lvl player should get vet dlc dungeons

You can't do vet dungeons till you're level 50 so I seriously doubt that you got grouped with a level 15

DLC you can learn ur facts

You cannot enter a VETERAN dungeon with a pre-vet character, DLC dungeon or not.

Pls stop and learn ur facts ffs

Care to explain ?

kylewwefan

I’m a bit slow, so it took a minute for this to sink in. Even normal dungeons are locked from by certain levels. Like said Vaults o Madness locked til 44 or something. DLC any level. So there would be a far greater chance at getting a DLC dungeon at low level. Say level 15. You can do like 4 regular dungeons or any of the 6 DLC. So I’m not good at math, but that’s a %50 chance or more at dlc

Myyth

Just go ahead and cancel your sub. Its the only way they will listen.

When the Horns of reach dungeons came out I tried to do them with group finder.
After 15 FAILED groups in a row trying to do the vet horns dlc dungeons I finally had enough.
I cancelled sub.

Ever since I got rid of ESO plus my gaming experience with the group finder has greatly improved.
I cant describe to you how awesome it is to NEVER EVER have to do mazzatun, cradle or those awful horns DLC again.
Group finder is so much better if you dont have eso plus.
Until they allow a way to block DLC dungeon I will never sub again.

Magdalina

FloppyTouch wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

neal_brasier wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Did a random daily vet was BF saw a lvl 15 and just left the group. This needs to stop no low lvl player should get vet dlc dungeons

You can't do vet dungeons till you're level 50 so I seriously doubt that you got grouped with a level 15

DLC you can learn ur facts

You cannot enter a VETERAN dungeon with a pre-vet character, DLC dungeon or not.

Pls stop and learn ur facts ffs

She(?) is right. You can't. Was grouped with a lowbie just today and "queue for vet dungeon" option was greyed out stating "one of your group members does not meet the requirements".

If you actually legit saw a level 15 (not cp 15) in a VET dungeon(not just normal dungeon II), then this'd be a bug worth reporting, and totally unrelated to the topic at hand.

Krayzie

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

neal_brasier wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Did a random daily vet was BF saw a lvl 15 and just left the group. This needs to stop no low lvl player should get vet dlc dungeons

You can't do vet dungeons till you're level 50 so I seriously doubt that you got grouped with a level 15

DLC you can learn ur facts

You cannot enter a VETERAN dungeon with a pre-vet character, DLC dungeon or not.

Pls stop and learn ur facts ffs

Care to explain ?

You can enter any DLC dungeon at level 10.

Myyth wrote: »

Just go ahead and cancel your sub. Its the only way they will listen.

When the Horns of reach dungeons came out I tried to do them with group finder.
After 15 FAILED groups in a row trying to do the vet horns dlc dungeons I finally had enough.
I cancelled sub.

Ever since I got rid of ESO plus my gaming experience with the group finder has greatly improved.
I cant describe to you how awesome it is to NEVER EVER have to do mazzatun, cradle or those awful horns DLC again.
Group finder is so much better if you dont have eso plus.
Until they allow a way to block DLC dungeon I will never sub again.

Why would they listen with 1 lost sub? People say they're canceling subs constantly in the technical section. Why would they have incentive to fix anything when people are ready to throw money at them for the slightest and most useless cosmetic changes.

Myyth

Krayzie wrote: »

Why would they listen with 1 lost sub? People say they're canceling subs constantly in the technical section. Why would they have incentive to fix anything when people are ready to throw money at them for the slightest and most useless cosmetic changes.

If enough people quit and cancel sub they will.
I was a loyal subscriber for two years. they lost my business.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Krayzie wrote: »

You can enter any DLC dungeon at level 10.

Yes. I know that. How is it related to the fact that you CANNOT set foot in a VETERAN dungeon with a non-vet character ?

Magdalina wrote: »

She(?)

Yep, "she" is correct

witchdoctor

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Pls stop and learn ur facts ffs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRPfY4mE4ME&list=RDhRPfY4mE4ME&t=52

KochDerDamonen

parkham wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

[..] I get a DLC dungeon and have to leave because I don't have the time, get a 15 minute penalty and now can't do any dungeon at all.[..]

I don't like the group finder much at all - however - I'm just going say that it's your problem.

Don't have the time? Don't queue up.

Don't think your low-level toon can complete the dungeon? Don't queue up.

Come to the forum complaining about the randomness of a random dungeon group finder? Don't queue up.

@Demolitionary @parkham @SHADOW2KK @Meetre @Taleof2Cities @AlMcFly etc...

Do you know what dungeons are unlocked at level 15? For a level 15 character? Banished Cells, Fungal Grotto and Spindleclutch. Versus WGT, ICP, Mazz, Cradle, and now the two newest dungeons. Even considering the I and II versions of the base game dungeons, that's a 50/50 split at dungeons with totally different lengths and difficulties.

That is, totally different difficulties. As in, two relatively new players on new characters could duo the first set in a reasonable time (at least the I versions, from experience having done this when I was new myself). Whilst the second set is just longer in about every way, bosses with more hp, more trash mobs with higher stats, more mechanics to worry about (and worry about randoms picking up).

Again, I repeat, do you know what dungeons are available to a level 15 character? How long it can take to actually get into a dungeon through the queue depending on role and time of day? The point of the random normal dungeon XP to a levelling player? That you cannot get any dungeon in the game at any level, and the lower level you are the more likely you are to get dumped into a dlc dungeon if applicable?

No, it's not particularly cool to leave a dungeon group. It's also not cool that ZOS has left the random queue like this since its inception. Although, I guess with this logic, that dungeon group should have set enough time aside under the assumption that they could lose a groupmate and need to replace them, right? After all, it is the random queue, gotta be prepared for anything at all!

FloppyTouch

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

neal_brasier wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Did a random daily vet was BF saw a lvl 15 and just left the group. This needs to stop no low lvl player should get vet dlc dungeons

You can't do vet dungeons till you're level 50 so I seriously doubt that you got grouped with a level 15

DLC you can learn ur facts

You cannot enter a VETERAN dungeon with a pre-vet character, DLC dungeon or not.

Pls stop and learn ur facts ffs

Care to explain ?

Sure I said I was in BF a dlc vet dungeons with a lvl 15 you can enter vet dlc dungeons at low lvls yet you called me out saying that's not true when it fact it is. Does that help?

anitajoneb17_ESO

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Sure I said I was in BF a dlc vet dungeons with a lvl 15 you can enter vet dlc dungeons at low lvls yet you called me out saying that's not true when it fact it is. Does that help?

No. Either you experienced a bug, or you don't remember correctly. You cannot set foot in a VETERAN dungeon with a non-vet character. Simple as that.
You were probably in the normal BF. Not veteran.

Ardan147

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Sure I said I was in BF a dlc vet dungeons with a lvl 15 you can enter vet dlc dungeons at low lvls yet you called me out saying that's not true when it fact it is. Does that help?

No. Either you experienced a bug, or you don't remember correctly. You cannot set foot in a VETERAN dungeon with a non-vet character. Simple as that.
You were probably in the normal BF. Not veteran.

Only way I can think of that it could possibly happen is if they were in a group with a veteran character, the veteran character entered a dungeon in veteran mode, and the non-veteran character followed the vet into the dungeon. Assuming that the game would even allow it to happen, which I don't know if it would or not. Other than that, before one reaches level 50 veteran dungeon mode is unavailable to them, as is queueing for random or specific veteran dungeons.

That said, there is absolutely no point to doing a veteran dungeon before one is at CP160; the benefits of doing a veteran dungeon over the normal version are that you get purple weapons, armor and jewelry instead of blue, and the final bosses drop monster helms - all of which you will end up outleveling if you are not already at CP160.

Magdalina

Ardan147 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Sure I said I was in BF a dlc vet dungeons with a lvl 15 you can enter vet dlc dungeons at low lvls yet you called me out saying that's not true when it fact it is. Does that help?

No. Either you experienced a bug, or you don't remember correctly. You cannot set foot in a VETERAN dungeon with a non-vet character. Simple as that.
You were probably in the normal BF. Not veteran.

Only way I can think of that it could possibly happen is if they were in a group with a veteran character, the veteran character entered a dungeon in veteran mode, and the non-veteran character followed the vet into the dungeon. Assuming that the game would even allow it to happen, which I don't know if it would or not. Other than that, before one reaches level 50 veteran dungeon mode is unavailable to them, as is queueing for random or specific veteran dungeons.

It wouldn't. You'd get some kind of "cannot port to character" error. If they try to queue you the option will simply be greyed out for them, stating "one of the team members does not meet requirements". Well unless ZOS broke something in one of their latest updates I guess, which wouldn't be overly surprising.

@FloppyTouch, if you're 100% certain you saw a level 15 in a VETERAN dungeon then report it as a bug because it's 100% not intended, and that is a fact. Either way it has zero relation to the topic at hand because (assuming it did happen and you didn't mistake cp 15 for level 15 or something) it's a bug whereas the issue of this thread is a sloppy/outdated design flaw.

On a side note, if you could actually queue lowbies for vet dungeons that could potentially open up monster helms to them which could then be abused in non vet PvP since they'd be literally the only ones with them there. But it seems like it'd be way too much trouble for what it's worth.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

@FloppyTouch, if you're 100% certain you saw a level 15 in a VETERAN dungeon then report it as a bug because it's 100% not intended, and that is a fact. Either way it has zero relation to the topic at hand because (assuming it did happen and you didn't mistake cp 15 for level 15 or something) it's a bug whereas the issue of this thread is a sloppy/outdated design flaw.

I suspect the confusion here is not between "lvl15" and "CP15" but rather between "vet dungeon" and "DLC dungeon".

Meetre

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

parkham wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

[..] I get a DLC dungeon and have to leave because I don't have the time, get a 15 minute penalty and now can't do any dungeon at all.[..]

I don't like the group finder much at all - however - I'm just going say that it's your problem.

Don't have the time? Don't queue up.

Don't think your low-level toon can complete the dungeon? Don't queue up.

Come to the forum complaining about the randomness of a random dungeon group finder? Don't queue up.

@Demolitionary @parkham @SHADOW2KK @Meetre @Taleof2Cities @AlMcFly etc...

Do you know what dungeons are unlocked at level 15? For a level 15 character? Banished Cells, Fungal Grotto and Spindleclutch. Versus WGT, ICP, Mazz, Cradle, and now the two newest dungeons. Even considering the I and II versions of the base game dungeons, that's a 50/50 split at dungeons with totally different lengths and difficulties.

That is, totally different difficulties. As in, two relatively new players on new characters could duo the first set in a reasonable time (at least the I versions, from experience having done this when I was new myself). Whilst the second set is just longer in about every way, bosses with more hp, more trash mobs with higher stats, more mechanics to worry about (and worry about randoms picking up).

Again, I repeat, do you know what dungeons are available to a level 15 character? How long it can take to actually get into a dungeon through the queue depending on role and time of day? The point of the random normal dungeon XP to a levelling player? That you cannot get any dungeon in the game at any level, and the lower level you are the more likely you are to get dumped into a dlc dungeon if applicable?

No, it's not particularly cool to leave a dungeon group. It's also not cool that ZOS has left the random queue like this since its inception. Although, I guess with this logic, that dungeon group should have set enough time aside under the assumption that they could lose a groupmate and need to replace them, right? After all, it is the random queue, gotta be prepared for anything at all!

I do know which dungeons are unlocked for a level 15 character, I have 8 toons in various stages of leveling over the 18 months I've been playing ESO. I also know that we make a choice to use the random dungeon finder. We SHOULD know what we are signing up for, a random dungeon from the list that is available to us. Coming to the forums and complaining that some are harder than others, when there is ANOTHER choice to queue for specific dungeons, is our own fault. It is not as if there is no other choice and you HAVE to use the random, because you don't. Making a choice and complaining that you don't like the outcome, when you knew in advance what the possibilities for that outcome are seems silly to me.

That being said, I do think ZOS should look at which dungeons are available to lower level toons so they don't get stuck in one they aren't prepared for. It seems to me we are discussing two issues and getting them confused. But to ask for the reward for doing a random dungeon without taking the random risk sounds childish to me.

Nemesis7884

dlc dungeons should be limited to lvl 50+ it would make the experience for everyone much better

neal_brasier

FloppyTouch wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

neal_brasier wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Did a random daily vet was BF saw a lvl 15 and just left the group. This needs to stop no low lvl player should get vet dlc dungeons

You can't do vet dungeons till you're level 50 so I seriously doubt that you got grouped with a level 15

DLC you can learn ur facts

You cannot enter a VETERAN dungeon with a pre-vet character, DLC dungeon or not.

Pls stop and learn ur facts ffs

Care to explain ?

Sure I said I was in BF a dlc vet dungeons with a lvl 15 you can enter vet dlc dungeons at low lvls yet you called me out saying that's not true when it fact it is. Does that help?

To be grouped with them they would if had to go in via the random dungeon finder and it's not possible to que for a random vet if you are below lvl 50 or have someone below lol 50 in your group

RANKK7

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

dlc dungeons should be limited to lvl 50+ it would make the experience for everyone much better

I would agree with that but in the end the real problem is ZOS not making any distinction among REAL low level players and CP players playing low level new characters.

For many with CP playing a new character that solution would be a punishment.
We know those places and already have a background about combat and the game as a whole, so it's fine and convenient to have them unlocked, we can be done with all the quests asap and get all the skill points, we can also help the REAL low levels going through that.

What I find utterly stupid are the non-dlc dungeons LOCKED at those levels, cmon Blessed or Bleckheart at Level 38 after you have already completed the dlc ones, it makes no sense whatsoever.
And the real newcomers and subscribers end up more often in dlc places since the limited number, as it's been discussed here.

So I would suggest to unlock ALL dungeons as it's been already suggested here in the thread, that would lower the odds for newcomers to end up in dlc ones.

Even an option to exclude the dlc ones from the queue for who's not willing to end up in those.
Since ZOS made the dlc ones harder, they shouldn't be in the same category as the oldest dungeons, even experienced players could prefer for limited time or relax to do a faster run for a random, not a bloodroot or mazzaturn where you have to stop at every boss explaining what will happen and what to do.

Btw unlocking all dungeons is surely something to do ASAP.

Pele

Agree to level locks or opt-outs on DLCs for randoms.

I queued up as tank for random on my tiny level 10 alt and got RoM. I promptly left the group because no way in hell was I subjecting my groupmates to my tanking that with barely sufficient skills and my mix and match stolen and generic drop scrub gear.

I expected to get into the starter zone dungeons (which my few unlocked skills and n00b gear could handle) not a DLC that even vet pugs struggle with on normal mode.

Trollolololol random dungeon finder.

zaria

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

dlc dungeons should be limited to lvl 50+ it would make the experience for everyone much better

Say 40, they should also change the requirements, 10 for all the 1 dungeons 20 for the unnumbered 30 for 2 dungeons and 40 for dlc.
This solves most of the problem for normal dungeons.