NA PC Vivec Campaign Sept 19th 2017

DisgracefulMind

Joy_Division wrote: »

KamoChameleon wrote: »

Am I the only one who wants to be on the faction that gets zerged? I would much rather be on the side getting it's head kicked in than on the zerging side.

My experience from Oceanic was that for over a month (I am 16hrs ahead of EST time) EP was zerging on DC hard. Then DC took over and returned that favour for 2 weeks. AD almost always was dead at this time and needed the most help. So off to AD I/we went. Obviously, everyone is coming from a different experience due to time zones and so sometimes I feel people are arguing at cross purposes.

I think there are a fair number of people out there that prefer to be on the disadvantaged side. I know many people who multi-faction do so specifically to go to the side that's getting pushed back to their gates (contrary to what is casually assumed on these forums).

More than that, I love defending Keeps. I love pouring oils on people's heads. I can't do that if my faction is taking enemy tri-home keeps.

Hell, we have a whole guild full of those players LOL

Elong

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

KamoChameleon wrote: »

Am I the only one who wants to be on the faction that gets zerged? I would much rather be on the side getting it's head kicked in than on the zerging side.

My experience from Oceanic was that for over a month (I am 16hrs ahead of EST time) EP was zerging on DC hard. Then DC took over and returned that favour for 2 weeks. AD almost always was dead at this time and needed the most help. So off to AD I/we went. Obviously, everyone is coming from a different experience due to time zones and so sometimes I feel people are arguing at cross purposes.

I think there are a fair number of people out there that prefer to be on the disadvantaged side. I know many people who multi-faction do so specifically to go to the side that's getting pushed back to their gates (contrary to what is casually assumed on these forums).

More than that, I love defending Keeps. I love pouring oils on people's heads. I can't do that if my faction is taking enemy tri-home keeps.

Hell, we have a whole guild full of those players LOL

"we"????

YOU LEFT US! YOU LEFT USSS!

DisgracefulMind

Elong wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

KamoChameleon wrote: »

Am I the only one who wants to be on the faction that gets zerged? I would much rather be on the side getting it's head kicked in than on the zerging side.

My experience from Oceanic was that for over a month (I am 16hrs ahead of EST time) EP was zerging on DC hard. Then DC took over and returned that favour for 2 weeks. AD almost always was dead at this time and needed the most help. So off to AD I/we went. Obviously, everyone is coming from a different experience due to time zones and so sometimes I feel people are arguing at cross purposes.

I think there are a fair number of people out there that prefer to be on the disadvantaged side. I know many people who multi-faction do so specifically to go to the side that's getting pushed back to their gates (contrary to what is casually assumed on these forums).

More than that, I love defending Keeps. I love pouring oils on people's heads. I can't do that if my faction is taking enemy tri-home keeps.

Hell, we have a whole guild full of those players LOL

"we"????

YOU LEFT US! YOU LEFT USSS!

No I didn't. Go look for "BeeHatesYou" I'm still there. I always leave and come back on main account when I join a new guild. Gawd. Babies.

Kilandros

KamoChameleon wrote: »

Am I the only one who wants to be on the faction that gets zerged? I would much rather be on the side getting it's head kicked in than on the zerging side.

My experience from Oceanic was that for over a month (I am 16hrs ahead of EST time) EP was zerging on DC hard. Then DC took over and returned that favour for 2 weeks. AD almost always was dead at this time and needed the most help. So off to AD I/we went. Obviously, everyone is coming from a different experience due to time zones and so sometimes I feel people are arguing at cross purposes.

I love logging in and seeing EP pushed back to Arrius I'm like awwwwwwww yeah BRK mine here I come

Elong

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

KamoChameleon wrote: »

Am I the only one who wants to be on the faction that gets zerged? I would much rather be on the side getting it's head kicked in than on the zerging side.

My experience from Oceanic was that for over a month (I am 16hrs ahead of EST time) EP was zerging on DC hard. Then DC took over and returned that favour for 2 weeks. AD almost always was dead at this time and needed the most help. So off to AD I/we went. Obviously, everyone is coming from a different experience due to time zones and so sometimes I feel people are arguing at cross purposes.

I think there are a fair number of people out there that prefer to be on the disadvantaged side. I know many people who multi-faction do so specifically to go to the side that's getting pushed back to their gates (contrary to what is casually assumed on these forums).

More than that, I love defending Keeps. I love pouring oils on people's heads. I can't do that if my faction is taking enemy tri-home keeps.

Hell, we have a whole guild full of those players LOL

"we"????

YOU LEFT US! YOU LEFT USSS!

No I didn't. Go look for "BeeHatesYou" I'm still there. I always leave and come back on main account when I join a new guild. Gawd. Babies.

Yes, yes she does! XD

Telel

*Beats head into desk out of frustration with bowtatoes!*

DisgracefulMind

Elong wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

KamoChameleon wrote: »

Am I the only one who wants to be on the faction that gets zerged? I would much rather be on the side getting it's head kicked in than on the zerging side.

My experience from Oceanic was that for over a month (I am 16hrs ahead of EST time) EP was zerging on DC hard. Then DC took over and returned that favour for 2 weeks. AD almost always was dead at this time and needed the most help. So off to AD I/we went. Obviously, everyone is coming from a different experience due to time zones and so sometimes I feel people are arguing at cross purposes.

I think there are a fair number of people out there that prefer to be on the disadvantaged side. I know many people who multi-faction do so specifically to go to the side that's getting pushed back to their gates (contrary to what is casually assumed on these forums).

More than that, I love defending Keeps. I love pouring oils on people's heads. I can't do that if my faction is taking enemy tri-home keeps.

Hell, we have a whole guild full of those players LOL

"we"????

YOU LEFT US! YOU LEFT USSS!

No I didn't. Go look for "BeeHatesYou" I'm still there. I always leave and come back on main account when I join a new guild. Gawd. Babies.

Yes, yes she does! XD

I hate everyone. |:

Except for one person.

Anazasi

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

LOL come on guys stop zerging, you should all be like Ta'ran, that old man never zergs. He's the most powerful 1vXer I know!

Who is the world has ever heard me say I'm a 1vX'r? I have never once in the 3 years that i have played this game made a claim like that. I lead groups. That's all I do. My group range from 12 to 24. I tend to play map objectives that help the campaign and my faction. I don't play other factions. This can be found in the 1k+ posts and the numerous videos i have posted. If you want to interject nonsense into a thread at least use some real facts about me.

I hear I'm unhinged. Why don't you try starting there peon...

Ghostbane

Anazasi wrote: »

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

LOL come on guys stop zerging, you should all be like Ta'ran, that old man never zergs. He's the most powerful 1vXer I know!

Who is the world has ever heard me say I'm a 1vX'r? I have never once in the 3 years that i have played this game made a claim like that. I lead groups. That's all I do. My group range from 12 to 24. I tend to play map objectives that help the campaign and my faction. I don't play other factions. This can be found in the 1k+ posts and the numerous videos i have posted. If you want to interject nonsense into a thread at least use some real facts about me.

I hear I'm unhinged. Why don't you try starting there peon...

Taran 1vX's AD zone chat

Anazasi

Ghostbane wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

LOL come on guys stop zerging, you should all be like Ta'ran, that old man never zergs. He's the most powerful 1vXer I know!

Who is the world has ever heard me say I'm a 1vX'r? I have never once in the 3 years that i have played this game made a claim like that. I lead groups. That's all I do. My group range from 12 to 24. I tend to play map objectives that help the campaign and my faction. I don't play other factions. This can be found in the 1k+ posts and the numerous videos i have posted. If you want to interject nonsense into a thread at least use some real facts about me.

I hear I'm unhinged. Why don't you try starting there peon...

Taran 1vX's AD zone chat

You know that. Last night though camelot (sp) got ignored for the negative stuff. There are times when it's just not worth reading or even replying in it. Although I really have to say compared to that player I am the most sane player in AD.

Elong

Anazasi wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

LOL come on guys stop zerging, you should all be like Ta'ran, that old man never zergs. He's the most powerful 1vXer I know!

Who is the world has ever heard me say I'm a 1vX'r? I have never once in the 3 years that i have played this game made a claim like that. I lead groups. That's all I do. My group range from 12 to 24. I tend to play map objectives that help the campaign and my faction. I don't play other factions. This can be found in the 1k+ posts and the numerous videos i have posted. If you want to interject nonsense into a thread at least use some real facts about me.

I hear I'm unhinged. Why don't you try starting there peon...

Taran 1vX's AD zone chat

You know that. Last night though camelot (sp) got ignored for the negative stuff. There are times when it's just not worth reading or even replying in it. Although I really have to say compared to that player I am the most sane player in AD.

He's a real nasty piece of work. The more people who ignore him the better mate.

WaltherCarraway

outdated

heystreethawk

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Under 1v1 circumstance some AD players (especially some weak gankers) are just some target practice for my ferocious leap then power lash execution so I can’t reject them at all!

Moreover, some of them are even salty rage whisper simulator which has buffed my ability to close chat tab then ignore already.

A fantastic faction which is gutless on Ash-Nikel line, but always biting like someone’s pet on BRK-Sej line. Nothing new here.

People saw what AD raid and DC raid did near (red) Aleswell days before. No one buys AD needs more player stuff b/c also we all know Oceanic players rerolling between AD/DC.

Feared of EP I presume?

P.S. usually I don’t strafe on Alessia bridge.
P.S. 2 If you wondered, sometimes I’d love to smoke arrogance, smells good and everlasting.

But do you have Striped Senche Tiger mount?

Kartalin

Tertiary Meat guested on Vivec for a bit Thursday evening and after some fights noticed that EP was close to emping. So we pushed north thinking we might try for chalman or brk, and ended up settling on Arrius. Was a good fight and we held it long enough for AD to clean up a lot of what was going on further south (not to mention DC took the opportunity to grab a scroll).

The video starts where we return from capping a resource or two after noticing the keep was under attack. There's a small break in the middle where there was a dog-related emergency on the floor of my living room so I had to leave for a few minutes after we initially had cleared EP out. Came back to the whole thing blowing up again so that's where the second half picks up. My dog, Harry, was unapologetic.

https://youtu.be/2wySNRkSu8Y

xylena

Maybe AD should worry less about Drakelowe and more about defending its home keeps from DC...

WaltherCarraway

heystreethawk wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Under 1v1 circumstance some AD players (especially some weak gankers) are just some target practice for my ferocious leap then power lash execution so I can’t reject them at all!

Moreover, some of them are even salty rage whisper simulator which has buffed my ability to close chat tab then ignore already.

A fantastic faction which is gutless on Ash-Nikel line, but always biting like someone’s pet on BRK-Sej line. Nothing new here.

People saw what AD raid and DC raid did near (red) Aleswell days before. No one buys AD needs more player stuff b/c also we all know Oceanic players rerolling between AD/DC.

Feared of EP I presume?

P.S. usually I don’t strafe on Alessia bridge.
P.S. 2 If you wondered, sometimes I’d love to smoke arrogance, smells good and everlasting.

But do you have Striped Senche Tiger mount?

Yes I do, place your bet buddy.

Anazasi

I am sure no one really cares about this but last week or at least at the start of this campaign there has been a growing competition between the regular EP players who have been on vivec for a while and the newer players who have arrived from Japan. I do not want to insult anyone and I could very well be wrong about the origins here. But the issue that I think ZOS should be looking at is the new way they are farming AP which allows them to occupy mostly the top 50 EP leaderboard spots. Apparently they gather a group of players and simply run from 1 resource to the next in the south and sometimes in the west. I have seen this group be as large as 30 players around BM and BB. I spent most of the day yesterday trying to figure out what really was going with certainty and every single player i killed at a resource was on the EP top leaderboards. I'm not certain if this is intended play by ZOS and I am not really sure what the purpose of this really is. My time was spent trying to ascertain what was really happening. From a couple of other threads the comments are they are simply farming AP. The similarity however is that they might be farming AP in order to sell or convert. The reality is this is not typical play. So, with the premise that this is AP farming for leaderboards, the solution presented itself like this.

AP farmers must maintain a specific level APH in order to stay competitive. IF the APH drops below a certain gain level it is no longer worth continuing in that method. So in order to intercede on the APH all the factions have to do is allow the resources to flip once after the eval occurs and leave them RED until the 15min or 10 min mark before the eval, then re-flip them obtain the eval point score for home keeps and allow them to flip them back. Essentially leaving these scrupulous AP farmers to wither on the vine as their APH drops to nothing per hour. A Lot of you will say we have to maintain transit lines. I agree. Hold brindle and 1 resource and you have transit to and from the gates. I know you all are asking could this really be what they are doing? Well from every player I have spoken to that has engaged them as part of the defense effort says they just die most of the time they don't even fight back. We have even seen them scatter and run in an attempt to camp so they can continue after we have killed most of them. I am really left with no other conclusion at this point.

Because of the numerous issues involved with AP farming especially on this scale I would like to ask the entire vivec community to try and identify these players and petition @ZOS to take a stand on determining if this goes against any current policy. I would also request that EP take a stand against such behavior by openly outing such deplorable behavior and to all those guilds associated with the FARMING of this kind be ostracized from our normal and dedicated EP guilds. Remember their behavior reflects on your faction as a whole and you should not tolerate it. Don't get me wrong, I love a good AP farm as much as the next guy. And our small scale groups that move on random resources hoping for the good fight are not part of this dilemma. It's the groups that get to zerg mass and only want to take resource after resource for the sole purpose of AP gain.

Of course everyone could just say "I don't care" and let the campaign become a crap hole and while more players simply just stop logging in. Wouldn't that be just peachy play for an already suffering PVP experience.

Telel

Anazasi wrote: »

I am sure no one really cares about this but last week or at least at the start of this campaign there has been a growing competition between the regular EP players who have been on vivec for a while and the newer players who have arrived from Japan. I do not want to insult anyone and I could very well be wrong about the origins here. But the issue that I think ZOS should be looking at is the new way they are farming AP which allows them to occupy mostly the top 50 EP leaderboard spots. Apparently they gather a group of players and simply run from 1 resource to the next in the south and sometimes in the west. I have seen this group be as large as 30 players around BM and BB. I spent most of the day yesterday trying to figure out what really was going with certainty and every single player i killed at a resource was on the EP top leaderboards. I'm not certain if this is intended play by ZOS and I am not really sure what the purpose of this really is. My time was spent trying to ascertain what was really happening. From a couple of other threads the comments are they are simply farming AP. The similarity however is that they might be farming AP in order to sell or convert. The reality is this is not typical play. So, with the premise that this is AP farming for leaderboards, the solution presented itself like this.

AP farmers must maintain a specific level APH in order to stay competitive. IF the APH drops below a certain gain level it is no longer worth continuing in that method. So in order to intercede on the APH all the factions have to do is allow the resources to flip once after the eval occurs and leave them RED until the 15min or 10 min mark before the eval, then re-flip them obtain the eval point score for home keeps and allow them to flip them back. Essentially leaving these scrupulous AP farmers to wither on the vine as their APH drops to nothing per hour. A Lot of you will say we have to maintain transit lines. I agree. Hold brindle and 1 resource and you have transit to and from the gates. I know you all are asking could this really be what they are doing? Well from every player I have spoken to that has engaged them as part of the defense effort says they just die most of the time they don't even fight back. We have even seen them scatter and run in an attempt to camp so they can continue after we have killed most of them. I am really left with no other conclusion at this point.

Because of the numerous issues involved with AP farming especially on this scale I would like to ask the entire vivec community to try and identify these players and petition @ZOS to take a stand on determining if this goes against any current policy. I would also request that EP take a stand against such behavior by openly outing such deplorable behavior and to all those guilds associated with the FARMING of this kind be ostracized from our normal and dedicated EP guilds. Remember their behavior reflects on your faction as a whole and you should not tolerate it. Don't get me wrong, I love a good AP farm as much as the next guy. And our small scale groups that move on random resources hoping for the good fight are not part of this dilemma. It's the groups that get to zerg mass and only want to take resource after resource for the sole purpose of AP gain.

Of course everyone could just say "I don't care" and let the campaign become a crap hole and while more players simply just stop logging in. Wouldn't that be just peachy play for an already suffering PVP experience.

Khajiit and company have noticed this behavior as well. Usually the group is at least 15 people strong and all they do is run from resource to resource near BB and BM. They rarely if ever siege unless the bloops are also pushing South.

This one has also noticed that many of them don't even seem to fight. They just run forward and only a handful actually do any damage or heal. That's still usually enough to take out a group of four people who are caught in the open but that's just how the math works.

But what is even more concerning is that we've seen similar groups inside of alessia during the dumbminions many slow and ineffective efforts to retake it after it's been zerged down. Just last week (Thursday 9/21/17) the pack and Telel wiped out a better part of a raid that was just standing at the top of the stairs huddled around a single catapult. Most of them just stood there as we butchered them one after the other.

Though of course the griffs had brought most of their faction to the keep by then so we did in fact lose but it still felt like we were fighting bots instead of other players.

If anyone is curious It's the very last fight at the end of Telel's 9/21/17 stream. Be warned that a certain grumpy one curses a lot due to their own faction's willful incompetence.

Mazbt

This happens back and forth. It doesn't last very long either in Vivec. Keeps get taken back and

Telel wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

I am sure no one really cares about this but last week or at least at the start of this campaign there has been a growing competition between the regular EP players who have been on vivec for a while and the newer players who have arrived from Japan. I do not want to insult anyone and I could very well be wrong about the origins here. But the issue that I think ZOS should be looking at is the new way they are farming AP which allows them to occupy mostly the top 50 EP leaderboard spots. Apparently they gather a group of players and simply run from 1 resource to the next in the south and sometimes in the west. I have seen this group be as large as 30 players around BM and BB. I spent most of the day yesterday trying to figure out what really was going with certainty and every single player i killed at a resource was on the EP top leaderboards. I'm not certain if this is intended play by ZOS and I am not really sure what the purpose of this really is. My time was spent trying to ascertain what was really happening. From a couple of other threads the comments are they are simply farming AP. The similarity however is that they might be farming AP in order to sell or convert. The reality is this is not typical play. So, with the premise that this is AP farming for leaderboards, the solution presented itself like this.

AP farmers must maintain a specific level APH in order to stay competitive. IF the APH drops below a certain gain level it is no longer worth continuing in that method. So in order to intercede on the APH all the factions have to do is allow the resources to flip once after the eval occurs and leave them RED until the 15min or 10 min mark before the eval, then re-flip them obtain the eval point score for home keeps and allow them to flip them back. Essentially leaving these scrupulous AP farmers to wither on the vine as their APH drops to nothing per hour. A Lot of you will say we have to maintain transit lines. I agree. Hold brindle and 1 resource and you have transit to and from the gates. I know you all are asking could this really be what they are doing? Well from every player I have spoken to that has engaged them as part of the defense effort says they just die most of the time they don't even fight back. We have even seen them scatter and run in an attempt to camp so they can continue after we have killed most of them. I am really left with no other conclusion at this point.

Because of the numerous issues involved with AP farming especially on this scale I would like to ask the entire vivec community to try and identify these players and petition @ZOS to take a stand on determining if this goes against any current policy. I would also request that EP take a stand against such behavior by openly outing such deplorable behavior and to all those guilds associated with the FARMING of this kind be ostracized from our normal and dedicated EP guilds. Remember their behavior reflects on your faction as a whole and you should not tolerate it. Don't get me wrong, I love a good AP farm as much as the next guy. And our small scale groups that move on random resources hoping for the good fight are not part of this dilemma. It's the groups that get to zerg mass and only want to take resource after resource for the sole purpose of AP gain.

Of course everyone could just say "I don't care" and let the campaign become a crap hole and while more players simply just stop logging in. Wouldn't that be just peachy play for an already suffering PVP experience.

Khajiit and company have noticed this behavior as well. Usually the group is at least 15 people strong and all they do is run from resource to resource near BB and BM. They rarely if ever siege unless the bloops are also pushing South.

This one has also noticed that many of them don't even seem to fight. They just run forward and only a handful actually do any damage or heal. That's still usually enough to take out a group of four people who are caught in the open but that's just how the math works.

But what is even more concerning is that we've seen similar groups inside of alessia during the dumbminions many slow and ineffective efforts to retake it after it's been zerged down. Just last week (Thursday 9/21/17) the pack and Telel wiped out a better part of a raid that was just standing at the top of the stairs huddled around a single catapult. Most of them just stood there as we butchered them one after the other.

Though of course the griffs had brought most of their faction to the keep by then so we did in fact lose but it still felt like we were fighting bots instead of other players.

If anyone is curious It's the very last fight at the end of Telel's 9/21/17 stream. Be warned that a certain grumpy one curses a lot due to their own faction's willful incompetence.

That group is super sketchy. They run around like headless chickens when they get pushed on too. Or they just stand on the flag and allow themselves to be ulti bombed without spreading out. It's the strangest thing I've ever seen in pvp.

Aztlan

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

NBrookus

Someone is trying to get emp and is picking up lfg's in zone claiming to be the emp group. I don't know if there is anything more going on than slurping up 1500+ AP by zerging resources. Calling them out in EP zone chat has been done a fair bit... and has done no good.

A couple of talented DC or AD bombblades will probably be more effective than invoking Zenimax.

Rohamad_Ali

Japan is bringing the Autobots ?

Anrose

Let's not forget that this particular group will fire 6 Soul Assaults on a solo player without ever engaging in any other way prior.

This particular group is a bigger cancer to the Vivec campaign than any other group on the map.

Telel

NBrookus wrote: »

Someone is trying to get emp and is picking up lfg's in zone claiming to be the emp group. I don't know if there is anything more going on than slurping up 1500+ AP by zerging resources. Calling them out in EP zone chat has been done a fair bit... and has done no good.

A couple of talented DC or AD bombblades will probably be more effective than invoking Zenimax.

That would explain why they literally abandon a good chunk of their group during the fights around Alessia today. WHich was again, all streamed with a 5-15 minute delay.

This one has never seen a group ride past them and their pack with such disregard before. Nor have they ever seen one just leave its own members behind to be wiped out like that.

Anazasi

So a couple of weeks ago I was going through the forums and read a post by someone who compared factional health averages. DC came in first, EP second, and AD last. I looked at this macro impression and started thinking why? Well for a raid lead that faces off against Dracarys I found myself to be at a total disadvantage. We typically ran 22 to 26k in cryodill while they ran 32-36. I started asking myself all the silly questions trying to think outside of the box reasons and answers. So i started with the story behind this health race and what the perception of this did or does to the community. The back story was pretty simple. Fantansia went to 25k requirement first, than Dracarys responded with 28 to 30 and then VE went up to 30k+ health builds and finally Dracarys went to 32k+ builds. I didn't start this health race but i want to understand why and stay on the competitive side of group play. Of course AD just fears change, players complain about why they don't need to up their health, or simply just want to play their way. All of which is fine, but group play is what I am all about and I needed to have the right answer before I made a requirement to raid with me. Yesterday, I was disappointed in some of the other AD players from what i though was cooperative guilds, who criticized me in their guild chats. So here's the best explanation as to why you need more health in pvp.

My requirement: I asked my guild to up their overall health between 22k and 23k outside of Cryodill. 80% of everyone thus far has done so and over the last week we have seen an increase in group survivability against groups equal to double our numbers.
The reality of PVP: Vicious Death procs will always kill raids. Dracarys plans for it and most of their Mag blades use it. AD is always their first faction to attack because AD has the lowest factional health overall is the easiest kills.

The math for Dracarys mag blade meta is pretty simple. Destro ulti to kill groups, Sap essence to heal them, CC locks to ensure maximum effect. All they need is 7 seconds that's it just 7 seconds to bring 2, 3, or 4 destro ultis into a group. If they CC lock you first they are simply hoping to get 3 seconds of damage on a group. It takes you at least 1 second to break free 1 second to roll dodge and by the 3rd second you are dead. Think about the damage ticks. The lower your health is the faster they get to the vicious death proc. If you want to survive this train you have to have enough health to withstand 4 seconds of damage. I'm going to low-ball this for you here because I know they do more damage based on my death recaps. But if 1 destro ulti does 3k damage per tick how long do you have based on your health pool to evade the damage? Yes its based on seconds. You and your group must react within 2 seconds or be consumed by this group. The more health you have the more time you and your group has to evade. I am sure someone who is better at graphs and math can make a simple chart showing the damage to second ratio based on number of destro ultis compared to health of target. I just can't, so my words will have to explain it.

So for those who don't like me or for those who think I'm asking for too much health, stay the heck away from my group. I don't need vicious deaths to proc and kill my guys. For those who want to think they have better situational awareness and this math doesn't apply to them, well you probably are a 1vX'r and don't belong in a group. The bridge is located near Alessia. The impact that DK has on the map and on Vivec is measurable and our absence is certainly noticeable. If you have a different way of leading or a better group comp theory than lead your own guild and or raids. If you don't like my way, that's OK you are free to play your way anywhere but in my group. I can count on 1 hand the number of AD Raid Leaders that have been with this game since launch, I'm just saying, I may be old, I may be a little slow up stairs, but I know what I am doing.

Agrippa_Invisus

Ever since 2.0, when they redid stat pools, everyone in Cyrodiil is just way too squishy. Even in the tank meta.

Hell, the tank meta wouldn't even be a thing if they hadn't destroyed survivability the way they did with that patch. In the 2.0 patch went from thousands of health and resources to tens of thousands. When they did that, they multiplied Stamina and Magicka pools by a flat x10. This lead to a commensurate increase in damage output as well.

On the other hand, they only multiplied health pools by 7.5. The health pool increased by 25% less than the other resource pools and it was immediately apparent then and it still prevails to this day.

People are too squishy, and with no soft caps, they just stack the absolute hell out of their defensive stats to make up for it. This leads to characters either being insanely difficult to kill or being utter chaff for the meat grinder, without a lot of space in between.

This also leads to a huge gap between knowledgeable and new players. New players have tiny health pools (because in PVE you don't really need HP to run dungeons unless you're the tank) and don't have layered defensive skills.

This is ruthlessly exploited by those that know what they're doing. Hell, I know if I'm in a fight and I see a squishy, I'm going to immediately retarget to that toon and crush them. To deny an ally to my enemy, to reduce whatever it was that person was offering to the enemy group (heals, damage, whatever), and to make sure I get AP even if I know I'm about to be overwhelmed.

Due to the races AD is stuck with unless paying for the All Races upgrade to the account, they tend to drift towards the squishy. They get High Elf, Khajit, and Wood Elf. One of those races is good at a tanky build (High Elf), as they make relatively decent mDKs (and mageblades, bomblades, sorcs, etc). The other two? Nooooooot so much.

So if you want to build a tanky build, what faction are you in if all you've done is buy the base game and some DLC? DC or EP. DC has Orcs and Redguard (and Bretons for magicka builds). EP has Nords and Argonians (and Dunmer for magicka builds).

The group meta is heavily biased towards magicka right now, with Stamina favoring soloer style builds. (not saying you can't swap that out with a good build or player, I'm just saying on the average...)

My point with all this?

ZOS is really bad at game balance decisions.

asneakybanana

Anazasi wrote: »

So a couple of weeks ago I was going through the forums and read a post by someone who compared factional health averages. DC came in first, EP second, and AD last. I looked at this macro impression and started thinking why? Well for a raid lead that faces off against Dracarys I found myself to be at a total disadvantage. We typically ran 22 to 26k in cryodill while they ran 32-36. I started asking myself all the silly questions trying to think outside of the box reasons and answers. So i started with the story behind this health race and what the perception of this did or does to the community. The back story was pretty simple. Fantansia went to 25k requirement first, than Dracarys responded with 28 to 30 and then VE went up to 30k+ health builds and finally Dracarys went to 32k+ builds. I didn't start this health race but i want to understand why and stay on the competitive side of group play. Of course AD just fears change, players complain about why they don't need to up their health, or simply just want to play their way. All of which is fine, but group play is what I am all about and I needed to have the right answer before I made a requirement to raid with me. Yesterday, I was disappointed in some of the other AD players from what i though was cooperative guilds, who criticized me in their guild chats. So here's the best explanation as to why you need more health in pvp.

My requirement: I asked my guild to up their overall health between 22k and 23k outside of Cryodill. 80% of everyone thus far has done so and over the last week we have seen an increase in group survivability against groups equal to double our numbers.
The reality of PVP: Vicious Death procs will always kill raids. Dracarys plans for it and most of their Mag blades use it. AD is always their first faction to attack because AD has the lowest factional health overall is the easiest kills.

The math for Dracarys mag blade meta is pretty simple. Destro ulti to kill groups, Sap essence to heal them, CC locks to ensure maximum effect. All they need is 7 seconds that's it just 7 seconds to bring 2, 3, or 4 destro ultis into a group. If they CC lock you first they are simply hoping to get 3 seconds of damage on a group. It takes you at least 1 second to break free 1 second to roll dodge and by the 3rd second you are dead. Think about the damage ticks. The lower your health is the faster they get to the vicious death proc. If you want to survive this train you have to have enough health to withstand 4 seconds of damage. I'm going to low-ball this for you here because I know they do more damage based on my death recaps. But if 1 destro ulti does 3k damage per tick how long do you have based on your health pool to evade the damage? Yes its based on seconds. You and your group must react within 2 seconds or be consumed by this group. The more health you have the more time you and your group has to evade. I am sure someone who is better at graphs and math can make a simple chart showing the damage to second ratio based on number of destro ultis compared to health of target. I just can't, so my words will have to explain it.

So for those who don't like me or for those who think I'm asking for too much health, stay the heck away from my group. I don't need vicious deaths to proc and kill my guys. For those who want to think they have better situational awareness and this math doesn't apply to them, well you probably are a 1vX'r and don't belong in a group. The bridge is located near Alessia. The impact that DK has on the map and on Vivec is measurable and our absence is certainly noticeable. If you have a different way of leading or a better group comp theory than lead your own guild and or raids. If you don't like my way, that's OK you are free to play your way anywhere but in my group. I can count on 1 hand the number of AD Raid Leaders that have been with this game since launch, I'm just saying, I may be old, I may be a little slow up stairs, but I know what I am doing.

Really good analysis here. I wouldn't have said it was a race to up health as we knew EU had been doing this for quite some time running raids in plague making them very hard to kill and so we set this up on NA and as many guilds had never fought a group with that type of build it was hard for them to fight but the good ones have slowly figured it out. But stacking health is not the be all end all, take for example artem, they are all running high health builds but their bomb blades are not running the correct gear so this leads to a shortcoming in damage and makes it much harder for them to successfully take on organized groups. While we haven't had the chance to fight them yet because they play later than us this is what I've seen going up against them with 6 people in group and a few pugs.

Also, you were only accounting for destro's there, missing out on sap and prox and grothdarr and whatever else we have going out in terms of damage. Going up 10k in health will maybe add 1s to your survivability with all that damage and won't make the biggest difference against a group like drac, it will end up being much more effective when you are fighting outnumbered and have to deal with siege and single target spam and whatever else. The meta today reminds me much more of the meta from pre 1.6 in terms of the health groups are running and sustain, back then most groups ran seducer for sustain paired with chugging tri pots where as now we need to be more creative with how we sustain using things like orbs. Just my theory behind the build and what I've noticed after playing with it for quite some time.

Anazasi

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

So a couple of weeks ago I was going through the forums and read a post by someone who compared factional health averages. DC came in first, EP second, and AD last. I looked at this macro impression and started thinking why? Well for a raid lead that faces off against Dracarys I found myself to be at a total disadvantage. We typically ran 22 to 26k in cryodill while they ran 32-36. I started asking myself all the silly questions trying to think outside of the box reasons and answers. So i started with the story behind this health race and what the perception of this did or does to the community. The back story was pretty simple. Fantansia went to 25k requirement first, than Dracarys responded with 28 to 30 and then VE went up to 30k+ health builds and finally Dracarys went to 32k+ builds. I didn't start this health race but i want to understand why and stay on the competitive side of group play. Of course AD just fears change, players complain about why they don't need to up their health, or simply just want to play their way. All of which is fine, but group play is what I am all about and I needed to have the right answer before I made a requirement to raid with me. Yesterday, I was disappointed in some of the other AD players from what i though was cooperative guilds, who criticized me in their guild chats. So here's the best explanation as to why you need more health in pvp.

My requirement: I asked my guild to up their overall health between 22k and 23k outside of Cryodill. 80% of everyone thus far has done so and over the last week we have seen an increase in group survivability against groups equal to double our numbers.
The reality of PVP: Vicious Death procs will always kill raids. Dracarys plans for it and most of their Mag blades use it. AD is always their first faction to attack because AD has the lowest factional health overall is the easiest kills.

The math for Dracarys mag blade meta is pretty simple. Destro ulti to kill groups, Sap essence to heal them, CC locks to ensure maximum effect. All they need is 7 seconds that's it just 7 seconds to bring 2, 3, or 4 destro ultis into a group. If they CC lock you first they are simply hoping to get 3 seconds of damage on a group. It takes you at least 1 second to break free 1 second to roll dodge and by the 3rd second you are dead. Think about the damage ticks. The lower your health is the faster they get to the vicious death proc. If you want to survive this train you have to have enough health to withstand 4 seconds of damage. I'm going to low-ball this for you here because I know they do more damage based on my death recaps. But if 1 destro ulti does 3k damage per tick how long do you have based on your health pool to evade the damage? Yes its based on seconds. You and your group must react within 2 seconds or be consumed by this group. The more health you have the more time you and your group has to evade. I am sure someone who is better at graphs and math can make a simple chart showing the damage to second ratio based on number of destro ultis compared to health of target. I just can't, so my words will have to explain it.

So for those who don't like me or for those who think I'm asking for too much health, stay the heck away from my group. I don't need vicious deaths to proc and kill my guys. For those who want to think they have better situational awareness and this math doesn't apply to them, well you probably are a 1vX'r and don't belong in a group. The bridge is located near Alessia. The impact that DK has on the map and on Vivec is measurable and our absence is certainly noticeable. If you have a different way of leading or a better group comp theory than lead your own guild and or raids. If you don't like my way, that's OK you are free to play your way anywhere but in my group. I can count on 1 hand the number of AD Raid Leaders that have been with this game since launch, I'm just saying, I may be old, I may be a little slow up stairs, but I know what I am doing.

Really good analysis here. I wouldn't have said it was a race to up health as we knew EU had been doing this for quite some time running raids in plague making them very hard to kill and so we set this up on NA and as many guilds had never fought a group with that type of build it was hard for them to fight but the good ones have slowly figured it out. But stacking health is not the be all end all, take for example artem, they are all running high health builds but their bomb blades are not running the correct gear so this leads to a shortcoming in damage and makes it much harder for them to successfully take on organized groups. While we haven't had the chance to fight them yet because they play later than us this is what I've seen going up against them with 6 people in group and a few pugs.

Also, you were only accounting for destro's there, missing out on sap and prox and grothdarr and whatever else we have going out in terms of damage. Going up 10k in health will maybe add 1s to your survivability with all that damage and won't make the biggest difference against a group like drac, it will end up being much more effective when you are fighting outnumbered and have to deal with siege and single target spam and whatever else. The meta today reminds me much more of the meta from pre 1.6 in terms of the health groups are running and sustain, back then most groups ran seducer for sustain paired with chugging tri pots where as now we need to be more creative with how we sustain using things like orbs. Just my theory behind the build and what I've noticed after playing with it for quite some time.

Thank you so much for commenting on this. It really helps when trying to educate others on this meta. Yes I did not mention all the other damage you guys do simply because i wanted to break it down in the simplest form for those that have chosen to criticize. But you are totally correct we have less than 3 seconds to see it and react before we are dead.

Satiar

@anasazi VE never went to high HP builds. Most of our people ran between 23-26k health with our heavyweight healers pushing it a bit higher. We always built our raids to have extremely high dps with the ability to bring 2-3 waves of damage if needed. It was an extremely effective spec open field, the main drawbacks being in tight spaces with nowhere to spread out or avoid damage.

The fact that you can run a tank build with 30k+ hp and still be an effective DPS speaks to how dumb destro ult is. But the main limitation of the spec is that you have only 1 bullet. The one thing I could never give up as a raid lead was strong second strike capability, and it served me well. Nothing like seeing a tank group dump ults, get a few kills, then begin a 2 minute kite...

HoloYoitsu

Satiar wrote: »

@anasazi VE never went to high HP builds. Most of our people ran between 23-26k health with our heavyweight healers pushing it a bit higher. We always built our raids to have extremely high dps with the ability to bring 2-3 waves of damage if needed. It was an extremely effective spec open field, the main drawbacks being in tight spaces with nowhere to spread out or avoid damage.

The fact that you can run a tank build with 30k+ hp and still be an effective DPS speaks to how dumb destro ult is. But the main limitation of the spec is that you have only 1 bullet. The one thing I could never give up as a raid lead was strong second strike capability, and it served me well. Nothing like seeing a tank group dump ults, get a few kills, then begin a 2 minute kite...

I take full responsibility for this misconception, from that time I ran 30k+ HP w/ Trainee + Troll King.