Removing levels 1-50

seedubsrun

Just to play devil's advocate here: A lot of the reasoning behind saying no seem to be something like "1-50 is for learning your character and getting better" or "If you got rid of it there would be even more people running around that can't play". All are valid points and ones I too thought about but I'm not so sure it's enough proof of 1-50s relevance. To me it's not about whether or not they should be removed but more "Do levels 1-50 actually matter or really provide a benefit?"

I mean yeah 1-50 is for learning your character but CP 1-100 could be too if you actually WANT to learn your character. There's a lot of bad players all over the place but not necessarily because they blazed through levels 1-50. There's tons of aspects of this game that are never explained at all and there's plenty that only end game content with harder enemies and more complex mechanics can teach you. Look at the difference between nMA and vMA. Pretty much anyone can muddle through nMA without learning anything from it but when you complete vMA for your first time you've really achieved something and are no doubt a better player having done it.

If 1-50 were gone you'd still have to put together a pre CP160 build, you'd still have to unlock, level, and morph your skills, and you'd still have to learn how they work. Also, given that by the time all your skill lines are unlocked and leveled and you have the ability to access all skills and create a fully functional build you're pretty much at 50 anyway. How much can you really learn 1-50 if you can't even create a cohesive build until your like level 45?

Again, just devil's advocate here. Prove me wrong please

PaixRomanus

Nestor wrote: »

I know, I know, some people are not going to be happy until they can just load a template up and go from there. But, something tells me that won't be good enough for them. Then they will want gear packs so they BiS right out of the Wailing Prison. Oh, no, we need to skip that too.

That's an interesting thought. I didn't really think of it that way. But you're right that when something like this changes everyone starts crying for my "convenience" changes that it ruins the game.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Honestly as I said in a post last week 1-50 is pointless. It is just there to slow people down. Like some how magically you learn to play your class going from level 1-50 when 99% of the mobs die to a light attack.

But 1-50 isn't going anywhere no matter how useless it is or becomes simply because of the amount of work to remove it. You would have to rescale equipment levels, redo stat point and skill point distributions, plus whatever else might be affected by the outdated levels. It also ruins the ability to sell level 50 boost if they ever go that way, like several mmos are doing now.

But yes 1-50 is all but useless.

NeillMcAttack

Nestor wrote: »

Leveling and unlocking skills is learning your character.


We already have enough CP160s out there that have no clue how to play the game or their class or role. We don't need them all to be that way.

Except unlocking skills and learning your character have nothing to do with the character level. And the amount of max CP players that have no idea how to build or play a role has nothing to do with their level either. This is due to how players are taught the game, not the system of experience representation, or whatever we could call it.

I used to feel the same as the majority here until the most recent character leveling. I was doing exactly the stuff I would be doing regardless, except no items I picked up were of any use. That's it.

After the first character it's just a nuisance, you'll still need to level your skill lines, FG, MG, Weapon Lines, Armor lines, Earn skill points, collect skyshards etc etc. In fact you will reach lvl 50 before you finish any two of these things.

I'm with you OP, I don't see the point in it, especially after your first character. Except for the fact the botters would probably benefit a great amount. And that might be the only reason ZOS need to not consider it.

kojou

I have 13/14 of my characters at max level. I leveled a lot of them when VR1-16 was still in place as well. In some ways I agree with you, but there is a flaw that if 1-50 is gotten rid of does my 14th character magically become CP660? Do I have to regrind 1-160 character level champion points before I get access to "shared" champion points?

As mentioned before the leveling of 1-50 does not take very long. Especially if you wear training gear and drink XP potions. When I create a new character that I am going to play I have the following tasks:

1. Level to 50
2. Get lore books to achieve mages guild 10
3. Kill enough undead to get fighters guild.
4. Get enough skill points to unlock everything I need.
5. Level Vampire or Werewolf if needed.
6. Level Undaunted
7. Level Alliance ranks (especially if Vigor is needed)
8. Level all the skills/skill lines that I need.
9. Feed horses every day

The part where I level 1-50 is actually very small and I can get it done in under a week. The rest of the process can take months. Which is basically to say if they got rid of 1-50 I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. It is such a small part of the process, but for new players I'm not sure if it makes it better or worse.

ThePrinceOfBargains

How about we just get rid of them for people that have already done it once? I have about 7 characters made on PC. While I'd like to use them all, I just refuse to level each one through to level 50. It takes too damn long and it's tedious. I've already gone through the level 50 process four times, two on PS4, two on PC. I know the base mechanics of the game. People are way over exaggerating how much it teaches you.

GrumpyDuckling

Feanor wrote: »

@PaixRomanus

It's pretty clear why your idea is bad. By having levels 1 to 50 you force people to at least get acquainted a bit with their character and the game mechanics. Now you could say they can do that as well while leveling up to CP 660. In that case there will be just more low levels that get excluded from group content. I agree the grind to v16 sucked. But the system we have now is a good compromise.

The OP's idea isn't bad for people who are creating alt characters and have already reached CP on their first character. They can understand the game mechanics well enough to learn a new character without being treated like a baby learning to walk.

All this current leveling system does is encourage players who want alts to grind their new characters instead of enjoying the game. Why else do you think there are so many people farming dolmens and Skyreach? You can have your opinion, but at least think logically before insulting the OP.

seedubsrun

TheMaster wrote: »

How about we just get rid of them for people that have already done it once? I have about 7 characters made on PC. While I'd like to use them all, I just refuse to level each one through to level 50. It takes too damn long and it's tedious. I've already gone through the level 50 process four times, two on PS4, two on PC. I know the base mechanics of the game. People are way over exaggerating how much it teaches you.

This is how I'd like to see it. You can do or not do the tutorial after you've completed it once. If 1-50 is supposed to be some long tedious tutorial too, then players that have already done it should get the option to skip it.

doslekis

1-50 shouldn't be seen as a grind but as a time to learn your class.

I see too many people with multiple lvl 50 toons who have no idea how to play that particular class because they spent their whole time leveling in skyreach or dolmens.

I'm all for experimenting with different classes, races, and builds. But personally its much more rewarding to work on one character and really master that particular class.

Dr.NRG

Im not a fan of 1-50 either exept for first characters but 1-50 is very unfortunately very important. If these lvl would be removed you would have ppl going into vet dungeons and other content without them having skills or passives unlocked. That can create many problems and annoyances.

MLGProPlayer

The level system in this game is a mess.

NyassaV

After you hit CP 160 I guess it would be nice if you had a choice to skip 1-50.

Sovjet

Very bad plan, thx for the input though

NordSwordnBoard

New players should go 1-50

Second characters on an account with a 160+ level should get the option to level up through 1-50, just like skipping the wailing prison. You can choose to get your 64 attribute and skill points in lump sum, and can get started on skyshards, undaunted, and mages guild grinds immediately.

Hollery wrote: »

After you hit CP 160 I guess it would be nice if you had a choice to skip 1-50.

I don't see the purpose of making a person continually repeat content if they already know what they're doing. The content isn't being used for it's intended purpose at that point.

(The ambrosia market might take a beating though)

Tommy_The_Gun

"Removing levels 1-50"

FakeFox

Please no! First of all it would be a bad experience for new players, since they don't learn to play their character step by step any more and therefore it would also be bad for others since you have far more complete noobs then now. Secondly you need to level skillines anyways, so it's rather pointless. Thirdly it would render 90% of the games contend obsolete.

kargen27

Really doesn't matter what you call it you still start at one. For new players (first character) it wouldn't really matter if they have to level to fifty to start on champion points or just start working on champion points right off. Either way they would have no skills and would need to progress through the game it get them. Question though, would attribute points be tied to gaining champion points or would you just start with them? If the change were made I'm guessing attribute points would be tied to advancing champion points. So for new players there would be really nothing different that what happens now except what we call the first levels.

For players starting more characters the change is more drastic. You could potentially be on a fully leveled character with zero skills. That means no leveling bonus and no skills. Many people have said they want harder content but his might not be what they were talking about.

What leveling to fifty first gives you is time. Time to get your skills up. As it is now you hit top level long before you have all the skills and passives you will want/need for end game ready to go. If you take fifty levels out of leveling you end up still having to spend a lot of time gaining and leveling skills. Might as well be leveling your character as you are leveling skills. We like the bells and whistles that come with an accomplishment. Seeing the glowing light and hearing the cool sound as you level is for most more a reward than the actual attribute points. Just the way we work. Taking away fifty levels would take away the little rewards we get as we are leveling skills. Not a good idea.

Darkstorne

seedubsrun wrote: »

Just to play devil's advocate here: A lot of the reasoning behind saying no seem to be something like "1-50 is for learning your character and getting better" or "If you got rid of it there would be even more people running around that can't play". All are valid points and ones I too thought about but I'm not so sure it's enough proof of 1-50s relevance. To me it's not about whether or not they should be removed but more "Do levels 1-50 actually matter or really provide a benefit?"

I mean yeah 1-50 is for learning your character but CP 1-100 could be too if you actually WANT to learn your character. There's a lot of bad players all over the place but not necessarily because they blazed through levels 1-50. There's tons of aspects of this game that are never explained at all and there's plenty that only end game content with harder enemies and more complex mechanics can teach you. Look at the difference between nMA and vMA. Pretty much anyone can muddle through nMA without learning anything from it but when you complete vMA for your first time you've really achieved something and are no doubt a better player having done it.

If 1-50 were gone you'd still have to put together a pre CP160 build, you'd still have to unlock, level, and morph your skills, and you'd still have to learn how they work. Also, given that by the time all your skill lines are unlocked and leveled and you have the ability to access all skills and create a fully functional build you're pretty much at 50 anyway. How much can you really learn 1-50 if you can't even create a cohesive build until your like level 45?

Again, just devil's advocate here. Prove me wrong please

Yep, you're right, but you're one of the few people in this thread who put thought into their answer. It's mainly how stat points are built into 1-50 that make it useful, otherwise new players would have to allocate them all at character creation, or we'd need to build stat points into CP levels from now on. Personally I think the bigger issue is CP1-160, since hitting 50 for a new player SHOULD feel like an achievement and the start of end game now that they've got a handle on their class and completed their faction storyline. Instead they're told that they still have another 160 levels to grind before any of the gear they collect has a chance of being useful.

Basically, scrap all CP gear below 160, rename CP160 gear to simply level 50 gear, and keep CP levels for CP skills only, not for gear gating. CP1-160 only matters for your first character anyway, and it's incredibly demoralising for new players to reach 50 and realise they're only half way to end game because of CP160 gear. It's too much extra grind for no good reason. Just a weird holdover from VR levels that really needs to be sorted out.

PlagueSD

I always love pugging tanks..Me dps, and 2 buddies (dps and healer) often pug a tank for pledges. I always love the runs when we get a cp level tank that has less than 15k health, can't hold threat for anything. We end up kicking him and replacement tank comes in at level 18 and we do a flawless run.

Jade1986

I just dont understand people now a days. Is there impending doom coming down from the sky? Is a meteor heading directly for your forehead? What is the rush? Seriously....

Must skip all dialogue in story dungeons, must rush through main story, must grind in the same spot losing braincells after a certain point. Enjoy the game, if you make 99999999999 alts and get bored, its really no ones fault but yourself. Make a story for you character, enjoy the sights. SWTOR introduced a instant 60 token, and let me tell you, the game became a COMPLETE mess after that.

Thogard

I'd rather they remove CP 1-160.

Being CP 90, for example, and not being able to wear end game gear must be very frustrating. No reason to not be competitive from an equipment standpoint in the BGs or No CP campaign.

Not being able to go into the 1-49 campaign anymore furthers the anguish of those champ levels...

Slick_007

Riejael wrote: »

Ever try to make gear for a friend who is CP10-140? I can't do it. I've looked for mats on the guild traders and it isn't there. I cannot get the mats my self. I either have a 1-49 character or a cp160+ character. Nothing in between. Sometimes.. sometimes I get enough to make one piece through writs if I randomly get the right mats.

im sure your friend can provide you the mats if you dont have them. simples

kargen27

Thogard wrote: »

I'd rather they remove CP 1-160.

Being CP 90, for example, and not being able to wear end game gear must be very frustrating. No reason to not be competitive from an equipment standpoint in the BGs or No CP campaign.

Not being able to go into the 1-49 campaign anymore furthers the anguish of those champ levels...

They put the champion point in to replace the vet level grind. That one was brutal. Also the champion points give you a bit more control on how you will play your character.

Thogard

kargen27 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

I'd rather they remove CP 1-160.

Being CP 90, for example, and not being able to wear end game gear must be very frustrating. No reason to not be competitive from an equipment standpoint in the BGs or No CP campaign.

Not being able to go into the 1-49 campaign anymore furthers the anguish of those champ levels...

They put the champion point in to replace the vet level grind. That one was brutal. Also the champion points give you a bit more control on how you will play your character.

I'm not against champ points necessarily.

I'm against CP 160 being the randomly selected "highest level" of all items. I'd rather all item should were level 50.

It doesn't matter to most of us - when our alts hit 50 they immediately catch up to the rest of our characters - but I feel bad for new players who hit level 50 and still suck, even in the campaigns that are not supposed to count CP.. and it's because of the item level cap.

(And yes I know it's CP 160 because that corresponded with VR16, but the average new player wouldn't know that)

Runefang

You learn to play when you're faced with difficult content that forces you to play closer to your limits. Most content you do from 1-50 is easy and can be doing facerolling.

Metal10957

Raise the level to 60 and CP 180 gear.

Tannus15

Riejael wrote: »

Sorry to say, but 1-50 doesn't teach anyone anything about their class. Maybe.. maybe back when the game released and everyone was learning stuff for the first time. But since then, everything has been marked, measured, and laid out by the community on exactly what you need to do to get to 50 asap and what to have.

Its like this in every game. The only difference here is the way scaling works you can enter an endgame normal dungeon at like level 10 and do 'fine'. Except newbies don't do fine. They just get dragged through or kicked. The idea of learning from low level to max is only applicable to the first strand of players in a new game.

In an older game like this one. A new player usually learns very little. You can easily see this by watching how CP400-600+ fail at some dungeon mechanics. A new player in ESO won't normally learn anything until long after they've had CP, and either some kind hearted soul decided to take them under their wing, or they get tired of being booted from groups and actually read up on stuff.

The basic game mechanics (dodging, blocking, interrupting) aren't normally learned 1-50 anymore. Reason I say this is I have a friend who's right around CP60 who I know hasn't grasped it yet. When they played EQ and WoW, they turned with the keyboard and clicked their abilities. Watching them try to solo something in this game is rather cringey. Be thankful they know their limitations and stays out of the group queues.

I'm not advocating for removing 1-50. But I would like to see gear levels reworked in crafting.

Ever try to make gear for a friend who is CP10-140? I can't do it. I've looked for mats on the guild traders and it isn't there. I cannot get the mats my self. I either have a 1-49 character or a cp160+ character. Nothing in between. Sometimes.. sometimes I get enough to make one piece through writs if I randomly get the right mats.

If anything needs to be fixed. That's it.

I mean if we're advocating for people to learn to put sets together while they level. Why make it a chore for those cp10-140? We force them into using hodgepodge of whatever they can get their hands on while they frequently outlevel it.

I still have over 1k+ of all mats between cp10 and 140. the only use I have for them now is making research items for friends.

Ever since 1T came out I've been advocating for the removal of gear levels altogether. It's the most unintuitive part of the game that your gears stats degrade as you level up.

Most games you pick up a level 10 item with +50 max health. the level 12 has +60 health and so on. In ESO the level 10 item has +1000 health and when you hit level 11 it suddenly has +950 health, then +900 at level 12.
It's all backwards and makes no sense. you get punished for levelling and instead of finding "better" items you're instead just trying to get back to where you were 5 levels ago.

I'm happy to keep levels however. The base game normal dungeons are easy to do and ~50 players should be encouraged to do them.

starkerealm

PaixRomanus wrote: »

What are your thoughts on removing levels 1-50?

Not particularly positive. There are revisions to the leveling and gear system that I could get behind. For example, if level requirements, and level based approach to gear was stripped entirely. Especially if the gear tiers functioned more as sidegrades, with each one having different gameplay functionality instead of simply greater stats.

This would go a long way towards culling out the more problematic elements of the 1-50 progression.

But, taking out 1-50 entirely? Not so much. Even if a lot of players simply grind past them, those levels do provide you with a real opportunity to learn your class and how it works, before you start locking into an endgame build.

Ashagin

For me being past 660cp there no real progression or sense of immersion. Just experimentation with gear. Starting a new toon helps me feel like I'm working towards something and helps me get that sense of immersion back. Even if only for a short while. I can see how after 12 characters my opinion might change though

SoLooney

umm no, first off yes, its takes some time grinding a char from 3 to 50, but thats when you get the skillpoints, leveling up other skill lines, getting used to your character etc etc. second, all characters share the same cp so you dont have to grind cp on each character. progression is fine in this game, zos needs to stop catering to the lazy and new players. If you went from lvl3 to cp 660 in a short time, is that any fun with progression?