Meta fall 2017

Anazasi

Ok I hate meta playing but unfortunately since the players have chosen this out of necessity and ZOS wants to allow it, I suppose the entire population should be aware of it in order to make ZOS change it.
Bastion of the heartland 5 piece bonus
Blade cloak buff
equals at least 50% AOE damage reduction.
Major protection 35% damage reduction
Minor protection 15% damage reduction

all stacking makes 95% to 100% damage reduced from AOE.

Since ZOS added jewelry for everything but crafted you can wear the Heartland set and 7 light or any combination of light and heavy or medium and heavy. With the right group composition you can be a ball group with large DPS and High AOE mitigation.

So the meta has not changed since launch. Its still ball up and impulse i mean storm your enemy, run behind a rock get your resources back or drop a camp and do it over and over and over and over and over and over and over till you log off and go to bed with the warm feeling that you are awesome. In reality you just found another way to force all the players to run around in the same builds just to have the "gud" fights.

I know this is the nature of meta play and no one is cheating or exploiting they simply are playing organized. But honestly are you really good? or are you really having fun? In either case that's the meta infrastructure to all those guilds and players out there dying to the ball groups. Enjoy the play and remember you can do it to just pop over to Vlastrus and spend that useless AP. Remember AD you now have a new farm spot because its sold in the south. Ha Ha isn't it amazing that all the good stuff comes from the south!

Publius_Scipio

So I assume you took duels or CP PvP seriously?

Amdar_Godkiller

Anazasi wrote: »

Ok I hate meta playing but unfortunately since the players have chosen this out of necessity and ZOS wants to allow it, I suppose the entire population should be aware of it in order to make ZOS change it.
Bastion of the heartland 5 piece bonus
Blade cloak buff
equals at least 50% AOE damage reduction.
Major protection 35% damage reduction
Minor protection 15% damage reduction

all stacking makes 95% to 100% damage reduced from AOE.

Since ZOS added jewelry for everything but crafted you can wear the Heartland set and 7 light or any combination of light and heavy or medium and heavy. With the right group composition you can be a ball group with large DPS and High AOE mitigation.

So the meta has not changed since launch. Its still ball up and impulse i mean storm your enemy, run behind a rock get your resources back or drop a camp and do it over and over and over and over and over and over and over till you log off and go to bed with the warm feeling that you are awesome. In reality you just found another way to force all the players to run around in the same builds just to have the "gud" fights.

I know this is the nature of meta play and no one is cheating or exploiting they simply are playing organized. But honestly are you really good? or are you really having fun? In either case that's the meta infrastructure to all those guilds and players out there dying to the ball groups. Enjoy the play and remember you can do it to just pop over to Vlastrus and spend that useless AP. Remember AD you now have a new farm spot because its sold in the south. Ha Ha isn't it amazing that all the good stuff comes from the south!

I was under the impression that resistance buffs are not additive unless if they are the major and minor buffs for the same passive. In other words. So bastion of the heartland = 1 - (resistance)((1-0.05)(1-0.2))= 1 - 0.76= +24% resistance

1-(.76 (1-0.25))= +43% resistance with cloak and bastion

1- (0.57(1-0.25)) = 57.25% resistance with cloak+ bastion + leki

Then major/minor protection are only 33%-38% total I think, 8% for minor and 25%30% for major. So all in all, that's 73.5 AOE resistance with leki thrown on top of it.

apostate9

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

So I assume you took duels or CP PvP seriously?

Sounds like it.

The_Duke

You can get it even higher with 5 lekis..... 85% in fact. thats my pvp tank build. It allows you to face tank EoS bomb blades.

HoloYoitsu

Slight correction for OP, both heartland and blade cloak do not give the tooltip mitigation values in PvP. I've tested in game, they are both giving only ~20% mitigation each - also they are additive with each other.

Lesson: never trust ZOS tooltips!

IcyDeadPeople

Don't you mean Summer 2017?

Defilted

What is the issue with running in a well organized group in Cyro? If you personally do not like it. This is understandable, but what makes it bad?

I run with a group. We effectively take keeps to cut off the enemies advance and we also takes scrolls. I do not see that this is a bad thing. Maybe not the type of game play everyone enjoys, but also not a negative thing.

umagon

Anazasi wrote: »

Ok I hate meta playing but unfortunately since the players have chosen this out of necessity and ZOS wants to allow it, I suppose the entire population should be aware of it in order to make ZOS change it.
Bastion of the heartland 5 piece bonus
Blade cloak buff
equals at least 50% AOE damage reduction.
Major protection 35% damage reduction
Minor protection 15% damage reduction

all stacking makes 95% to 100% damage reduced from AOE.

Since ZOS added jewelry for everything but crafted you can wear the Heartland set and 7 light or any combination of light and heavy or medium and heavy. With the right group composition you can be a ball group with large DPS and High AOE mitigation.

So the meta has not changed since launch. Its still ball up and impulse i mean storm your enemy, run behind a rock get your resources back or drop a camp and do it over and over and over and over and over and over and over till you log off and go to bed with the warm feeling that you are awesome. In reality you just found another way to force all the players to run around in the same builds just to have the "gud" fights.

I know this is the nature of meta play and no one is cheating or exploiting they simply are playing organized. But honestly are you really good? or are you really having fun? In either case that's the meta infrastructure to all those guilds and players out there dying to the ball groups. Enjoy the play and remember you can do it to just pop over to Vlastrus and spend that useless AP. Remember AD you now have a new farm spot because its sold in the south. Ha Ha isn't it amazing that all the good stuff comes from the south!

People got tired of aoe spam due to Wrobel’s refusal to change the way it works and groups refusing to stop spamming it. Heart land has always been one of the major “counters” Wrobel’s team made to combat aoe spam which is why he will not change the way aoe functions.

In the past people refused to use heartland but now people understand how to use it to counter aoe spam and are doing so. The solution is not try and defeat them with more aoe spam but with focused single target attacks. What you are seeing is the result of “groups” over using a single mechanic (aoe) and other people/groups reacting to it.

If aoe wasn’t so effective and groups didn’t spam it everywhere, every day, all day; then there would not be as many people equipping counter sets to avoid it.

Also that isn’t how mitigation works in the game.

Aztlan

I have also had the thought, several times, that a good way to combat the AoE ball groups would be with powerful single target damage. The trouble is, you need to survive long enough in the thick of the fight to focus people down. My stamina NB is built to do just this. I would like to see how an entire raid of single target killer bees, with a few tanks and healers thrown in, would fare against the EotS ball groups.

Malic

Yes Heartland is good and with other sets you can be virtually unkillable (dependent on CC). The problem is you arent killing anything unless you REALLY luck out on a nub, otherwise youre absorbing damage.

High value for organized groups though, they wreck the nubs trying to wreck you. RvRvR play, WAI.

GreenSoup2HoT

Nerf Eye of the Storm and Buff Siege (nerf ram). Then pvp will be decent.

Vilestride

Damn. I guess the OP ness of heartland is out there for the world to see now. I have always been surprised how few people use it.

Xsorus

So basically you make yourself unkillable during eots bomb runs but die soon afterward being single target focused down by said groups after they've killed everyone else?

Though I can see heartland/Leki being a fairly decent setup against a lot of players when ya take into account A lot of burst is from aoe ults.

Would also screw Templars up

Malic

Malic wrote: »

Yes Heartland is good and with other sets you can be virtually unkillable (dependent on CC). The problem is you arent killing anything unless you REALLY luck out on a nub, otherwise youre absorbing damage.

High value for organized groups though, they wreck the nubs trying to wreck you. RvRvR play, WAI

Vilestride wrote: »

Damn. I guess the OP ness of heartland is out there for the world to see now. I have always been surprised how few people use it.

It wasnt as easy to get, once they opened up the vaults for cyrodiil rewards more people got to see it. You rarely if ever saw it in guild stores and you had to spend an arm and a leg on containers to luck out to get it. Even then, its only application is PVP, so the PVE people, even if they did see it would have dismissed it.

Then Eye of the storm came along, ZOS made it to powerful which most of us agree on and people in PVP, who only PVP were looking for ways to mitigate its effect. Particularly given the way organized groups effectively used Eye of the flame (NB bomb, following a streaking sorc, not elaborate but still).

The flame groups were farming pve, casual and noobs but short of negates and remeberance there wasnt a lot you could do because you cant block eye.

So ZOS brought it to light, enjoy it, it will likely be nerfed in the coming months due to the regular forum cry babies QQing about EVERYTHING in PvP.

zyk

Malic wrote: »

Then Eye of the storm came along, ZOS made it to powerful which most of us agree on and people in PVP, who only PVP were looking for ways to mitigate its effect. Particularly given the way organized groups effectively used Eye of the flame (NB bomb, following a streaking sorc, not elaborate but still).

The flame groups were farming pve, casual and noobs but short of negates and remeberance there wasnt a lot you could do because you cant block eye.

You can choose not to stand in it. EOTS is mainly effective against unorganized masses which large guilds spend most of their time fighting against. It's used when large groups encounter each other because they're all built for meat grinding.

I think if large groups were to build for GvG, EOTS wouldn't be considered OP or nearly as common. It's not hard to avoid/anticipate and if a group doesn't get KBs to recover ult, it's pretty meh.

So basically, it's a L2P issue. I'm amazed by how frequently players fall for the kite and bomb tactic and/or have no counters to immobilizations.

The value of Heartland is more than about EOTS. A greater issue for uberblobs is siege IMO -- especially invisible CF. When I run in larger groups, it's usually the siege that ends up pushing us out of objectives, not opposition bombs.

Malic wrote: »

So ZOS brought it to light, enjoy it, it will likely be nerfed in the coming months due to the regular forum cry babies QQing about EVERYTHING in PvP.

Like EOTS?

The_Duke

I had no idea that heartland had become so popular. Ive worn it since 1 Tam with lekis. I honestly hadnt heard of anyone else using this set untill this thread.

Elong

Zerging OP player complains about zergs.

Hmmmm.

Mojomonkeyman

Elong wrote: »

Zerging OP player complains about zergs.

Hmmmm.

That's what I thought.

Sanct16

Heartland is bad.

Vilestride

Bad sanct

MLRPZ

"Hate the game, not the players"

Anazasi

Elong wrote: »

Zerging OP player complains about zergs.

Hmmmm.

Wow, its been years since i ran multiple groups in PVP and yet I am still remembered or called a Zerg player. We can talk about last night or last month or 2 months ago when my group of 16 faced 30 to 60 other EP at any place on the map. Frankly you can educate yourself on what our group consists of. Watch the videos the link is in the sig.

Zerging what a refreshing idea perhaps you should apply it to EP or DC faction instead of AD.

Soul_Demon

zyk wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Then Eye of the storm came along, ZOS made it to powerful which most of us agree on and people in PVP, who only PVP were looking for ways to mitigate its effect. Particularly given the way organized groups effectively used Eye of the flame (NB bomb, following a streaking sorc, not elaborate but still).

The flame groups were farming pve, casual and noobs but short of negates and remeberance there wasnt a lot you could do because you cant block eye.

You can choose not to stand in it. EOTS is mainly effective against unorganized masses which large guilds spend most of their time fighting against. It's used when large groups encounter each other because they're all built for meat grinding.

I think if large groups were to build for GvG, EOTS wouldn't be considered OP or nearly as common. It's not hard to avoid/anticipate and if a group doesn't get KBs to recover ult, it's pretty meh.

So basically, it's a L2P issue. I'm amazed by how frequently players fall for the kite and bomb tactic and/or have no counters to immobilizations.

The value of Heartland is more than about EOTS. A greater issue for uberblobs is siege IMO -- especially invisible CF. When I run in larger groups, it's usually the siege that ends up pushing us out of objectives, not opposition bombs.

Malic wrote: »

So ZOS brought it to light, enjoy it, it will likely be nerfed in the coming months due to the regular forum cry babies QQing about EVERYTHING in PvP.

Like EOTS?

Exactly. Play solo, 1vx or whatever....but don't stand in other player skills and say those skills should be changed to more adequately allow "you, the solo or 1vx" to stand in them without impact so one guy can wipe a group. Been that way since the game started....a never ending conga line of solo, 1vx'ers who complain about things they can easily not be in, but don't want to do that- they want to wipe groups of 20 solo- so they cry about how "op" AOE is. Super tough stuff...don't stand in it.

Barrier, Impulse, Prox Det rollout, Prox Det reduction, Siege damage, Rapids, AOE caps, HOT’s reduced, BOL reduced, Eye of storm rollout. Consider the cost increase of Purge, Siege Shield, Rapids- 8100 and 9450 magica and 7938 stam for each one respectively over twice the cost of most abilities….all to interfere directly with group style of play….radius decreases and consistent number of players hit reductions. All this and much more has been 'adjusted' because solo or 1vx'ers don't want to not stand in the aoe's and want to wipe a group- they want one player to be able to wipe 20 every time.

As you say, it really is a ltp issue and snowflake mentality to keep crying about taking other players skills away to make the solo, 1vx experience easier.

BejaProphet

Soul_Demon wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Then Eye of the storm came along, ZOS made it to powerful which most of us agree on and people in PVP, who only PVP were looking for ways to mitigate its effect. Particularly given the way organized groups effectively used Eye of the flame (NB bomb, following a streaking sorc, not elaborate but still).

The flame groups were farming pve, casual and noobs but short of negates and remeberance there wasnt a lot you could do because you cant block eye.

You can choose not to stand in it. EOTS is mainly effective against unorganized masses which large guilds spend most of their time fighting against. It's used when large groups encounter each other because they're all built for meat grinding.

I think if large groups were to build for GvG, EOTS wouldn't be considered OP or nearly as common. It's not hard to avoid/anticipate and if a group doesn't get KBs to recover ult, it's pretty meh.

So basically, it's a L2P issue. I'm amazed by how frequently players fall for the kite and bomb tactic and/or have no counters to immobilizations.

The value of Heartland is more than about EOTS. A greater issue for uberblobs is siege IMO -- especially invisible CF. When I run in larger groups, it's usually the siege that ends up pushing us out of objectives, not opposition bombs.

Malic wrote: »

So ZOS brought it to light, enjoy it, it will likely be nerfed in the coming months due to the regular forum cry babies QQing about EVERYTHING in PvP.

Like EOTS?

Exactly. Play solo, 1vx or whatever....but don't stand in other player skills and say those skills should be changed to more adequately allow "you, the solo or 1vx" to stand in them without impact so one guy can wipe a group. Been that way since the game started....a never ending conga line of solo, 1vx'ers who complain about things they can easily not be in, but don't want to do that- they want to wipe groups of 20 solo- so they cry about how "op" AOE is. Super tough stuff...don't stand in it.

Barrier, Impulse, Prox Det rollout, Prox Det reduction, Siege damage, Rapids, AOE caps, HOT’s reduced, BOL reduced, Eye of storm rollout. Consider the cost increase of Purge, Siege Shield, Rapids- 8100 and 9450 magica and 7938 stam for each one respectively over twice the cost of most abilities….all to interfere directly with group style of play….radius decreases and consistent number of players hit reductions. All this and much more has been 'adjusted' because solo or 1vx'ers don't want to not stand in the aoe's and want to wipe a group- they want one player to be able to wipe 20 every time.

As you say, it really is a ltp issue and snowflake mentality to keep crying about taking other players skills away to make the solo, 1vx experience easier.

Me: (three people synchronize gap close EotS on me and I die instantly)
Him: Don't stand in it!

Individual EotS's don't need nerfed so much. The only counter to these coordinated charges though is to be waiting for them in advance. And if the bombers have built their entire build around mobility/speed while flaming, then even that will not save you. You simply have to hope you have enough people that they can't chase kill them all. One or two paths would balance it. Either make only one able to be hitting you at a time, like caltrops use to be (I think), or make it such that move speed buffs are disabled while its running. So you know...we can actually choose not to stand in it.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Anazasi wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Zerging OP player complains about zergs.

Hmmmm.

Wow, its been years since i ran multiple groups in PVP and yet I am still remembered or called a Zerg player. We can talk about last night or last month or 2 months ago when my group of 16 faced 30 to 60 other EP at any place on the map. Frankly you can educate yourself on what our group consists of. Watch the videos the link is in the sig.

Zerging what a refreshing idea perhaps you should apply it to EP or DC faction instead of AD.

Group size makes no difference when considering zerging. What you do with that group does.

For example you may have a group of 4 people but if you run along side your factions stack of 80 you are still zerging.

Crown

Anazasi wrote: »

Bastion of the heartland 5 piece bonus Blade cloak buff equals at least 50% AOE damage reduction.
Major protection 35% damage reduction
Minor protection 15% damage reduction
all stacking makes 95% to 100% damage reduced from AOE.

@Anazasi Your math is a bit off. If all these buffs worked in Cyrodiil the way the tooltips read, then it would be as follows (with each buff applied in order based on multiplicative stacking -- which is how they are SUPPOSED to work) based on 1000 base damage:

Bastion of the Heartland 5% Mitigation on Player Damage (-50 = 950)
Bastion of the Heartland 20% Mitigation on AoE (-190 = 760)
Quick Cloak 25% Mitigation on AoE (-190 = 570)
Major Protection 30% Mitigation on all damage (-171 = 399)
Minor Protection 8% Mitigation on all damage (-32 = 367)

This would result in about 63% mitigation.

Unfortunately, as usual, things don't work the way that they are supposed to, the tooltip numbers for mitigation are NOT accurate, and some of these buffs work additive with others multiplicative (as of last patch -- I haven't tested in HotR).

They are still good buffs individually, but the mitigation provided by them all together isn't as good as one would hope.

EDIT: Forgot to note base damage of 1000.

Derra

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Buff Siege

Made me throw up a little in my mouth.

Yeah buff leftclickers. That´s the pvp spirit of eso.

Edit: Reading further in this topic - do people really not realize that the problem is those destroult ballgroups becoming untouchable because they´re equipping heartland?

Elong

Anazasi wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Zerging OP player complains about zergs.

Hmmmm.

Wow, its been years since i ran multiple groups in PVP and yet I am still remembered or called a Zerg player. We can talk about last night or last month or 2 months ago when my group of 16 faced 30 to 60 other EP at any place on the map. Frankly you can educate yourself on what our group consists of. Watch the videos the link is in the sig.

Zerging what a refreshing idea perhaps you should apply it to EP or DC faction instead of AD.

You're in denial and have been for some time. It's cute.

I'm a happy zerg surfer. You're an unhappy zerg leader. Embrace your title.

paulsimonps

If you guys actually want to test your mitigation you might want to have a look at some of the formulas.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1

Sanct16

Derra wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Buff Siege

Made me throw up a little in my mouth.

Yeah buff leftclickers. That´s the pvp spirit of eso.

Edit: Reading further in this topic - do people really not realize that the problem is those destroult ballgroups becoming untouchable because they´re equipping heartland?

this is simply wrong. heartland is really underwhelming.