Bug? - vMA Daggers Apply enchantment bonus while off-bar, Contradicts vDSA Daggers/Recent Changes

Avran_Sylt

(Vid - vMA)

https://youtu.be/58EMCCfUv14

This is contradictory with the recent QoL update to enchantments:
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Only the weapon you are currently holding will now proc enchantments.
This resolves some issues where you would cast an ability then weapon swap, and your weapon enchantment would proc from the weapon you weren't currently holding.

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It is also contradictory with the vDSA Daggers, whose enchantment will only 'proc' while on the held bar. Functioning in accordance to this new QoL update.
(Vid- vDSA)

https://youtu.be/TlUpsavzqaU

This was tested on PTS version 3.1.6.1491141

Jhalin

vMA weapons do not follow the same rules as other weapons in regards to enchants. vDSA weapons should proc off backbar if their enchant ability gets used on frontbar. However, DSA is an older thing, so it may have been missed in the update.

Avran_Sylt

@Jhalin

Aint that gonna Contradict their Stance on:
Only the weapon you are currently holding will now proc enchantments.

OneEyedKing

The bonus has a duration after it triggers (procs). It only *triggers* when you have the daggers equipped. It doesn't go away when you bar swap. But you also can't trigger it again until you swap back. This seems to be functioning as intended (and makes sense). What wouldn't make sense is if you were on the off-bar and it just triggered without ever switching to it.

Jhalin

@Avran_Sylt
No, they addressed Maelstrom weapons on the forums (somewhere) and said they are coded differently.

Also Maelstrom weapons would be useless if they only proc'd on the active bar.

Avran_Sylt

@Jhalin

I'm aware. I'm just flabbergasted at some of the recent changes they've made in regards to how they handle enchantments. So I'm picking apart their current stance by trying to bring up various inconsistencies that they've forgotten about.

code65536

The bug isn't with the vMA enchant--that's working as intended. The bug is with the vDSA daggers not retaining their bleed bonus.

If you proc a standard weapon damage enchant on one bar, that 5s stat increase should remain when you swap to another bar. What isn't intended is if you are able to re-proc that weapon damage enchant while on your other bar.

For example, the Crusher enchantment that tanks use suffered from this problem during the Morrowind patch:

Intended behavior:

1. Light attack on back bar to proc Crusher for 5s
2. Swap to front bar, Crusher remains in effect for its 5s duration

Unintended behavior:

1. Cast Blade Cloak on back bar to proc Crusher for 5s
2. Swap to front bar, Crusher remains in effect for its 5s duration
3. Another tick from Blade Cloak re-procs Crusher for another 5s, while you are still on your front bar

Once an enchantment has proced, its effect should remain no matter what bar you are on. What shouldn't happen is for that enchantment to re-proc when you are not on that bar. In the case of the vMA daggers, this is exactly what happens: it would be bugged if you could use Flurry on a non-vMA bar to get a new Cruel Flurry empowerment. It's not bugged if the existing Cruel Flurry empowerment remains across bar swaps. Each tick of the DoT that was empowered does not (and should not) count as a "new" proc.

In the case of the vDSA daggers, the extra damage disappearing from an already-empowered DoT should not be happening.

So you've identified a legit bug. Except you are snarkily barking up the wrong tree.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

OneEyedKing wrote: »

The bonus has a duration after it triggers (procs). It only *triggers* when you have the daggers equipped. It doesn't go away when you bar swap. But you also can't trigger it again until you swap back. This seems to be functioning as intended (and makes sense). What wouldn't make sense is if you were on the off-bar and it just triggered without ever switching to it.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Jhalin

Aint that gonna Contradict their Stance on:
Only the weapon you are currently holding will now proc enchantments.

the enchantments on VMA and master weapons are NOT "PROCs". a Proc is an acronym for a Programmed Random OCcurrence that refers to a weapon, item or ability activating with the "Chance on Hit" or "Chance on Use" effect (an ability or a spell).. these weapons apply there enchantment on EVERY use of the ablity they are modifying, there is nothing "random" or chance based about them, therefore they ought to have different rules then "PROCs". is this really so hard to understand.

Avran_Sylt

@code65536

Oh, I am being quite snarky indeed. This is why:

vMA Enchantment: I use this enchantment, this enchantment persists on the ability for its entire duration. Even when swapping
Standard Enchantment: I use this enchantment, this enchantment does not persist on the ability for its entire duration.

How enchantments proc should be standardized, not based on the sub-type. In that Whatever weapon is used to cast an ability, is the weapon referred to when the ability deals damage.

They're being inconsistent just so these enchantments don't become totally useless. Because of their new change to how enchantments work.

IMO, they need to scrap these as enchantments and just make them set bonuses.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@code65536

Oh, I am being quite snarky indeed. This is why:

vMA Enchantment: I use this enchantment, this enchantment persists on the ability for its entire duration. Even when swapping
Standard Enchantment: I use this enchantment, this enchantment does not persist on the ability for its entire duration.

How enchantments proc should be standardized, not based on the sub-type. In that Whatever weapon is used to cast an ability, is the weapon referred to when the ability deals damage.

They're being inconsistent just so these enchantments don't become totally useless. Because of their new change to how enchantments work.

IMO, they need to scrap these as enchantments and just make them set bonuses.

The enchantments on VMA and master weapons are NOT "PROCs". a Proc is an acronym for a Programmed Random OCcurrence that refers to a weapon, item or ability activating with the "Chance on Hit" or "Chance on Use" effect (an ability or a spell).. these weapons apply there enchantment on EVERY use of the ablity they are modifying, there is nothing "random" or chance based about them, therefore they ought to have different rules then "PROCs". is this really so hard to understand.

Avran_Sylt

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Then at that point it is not an ENCHANTMENT, it is a freaking set bonus. Given that the majority of other enchantments function on a cooldown based system.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Then at that point it is not an ENCHANTMENT, it is a freaking set bonus.

if you need to think of them as a set bonus, it is the set bonus to those weapons. point is that people all over this board are using the term "PROC" on things that are NOT random.

Avran_Sylt

@lightningspeedb16_ESO

Pretty sure that its being used interchangeably with the term 'Fired'.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@lightningspeedb16_ESO

Pretty sure that its being used interchangeably with the term 'Fired'.

I understand that fact but it doesn't mean that usage is any less wrong and missleading.

code65536

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Standard Enchantment: I use this enchantment, this enchantment does not persist on the ability for its entire duration.

Um, which enchantment? Shock, Fire, Oblivion, etc., are single-fire enchantments. They have no duration, merely a cooldown on when they can fire next. They fire, and when you bar swap, they can't fire unless you swap back to that bar again.

Things like Weapon Damage and Crusher that do have a duration should have their duration persist across bar swaps. Again, they don't re-fire unless you're back on that bar.

The vDSA enchantment is clearly bugged as shown in your video.

Again, this is just a case of the vDSA dagger enchantment being bugged.

Avran_Sylt

@code65536

This is where it gets very muddy, and deals with intuition a helluva lot more:

Enchantments are placed on your weapon
Your weapon is used to use abilities
Your abilities damage enemies.

So, If I were to use a bow and arrow that has a fire enchantment, shoot an arrow at an enemy, you would assume this:

Fire Weapon=>Fire Ability=> Fire Damage

If I were to shoot a fire arrow into the air, and swap to a Frost Greatsword, should that arrow still be a fire arrow, or is it now a frost arrow?

If I were shoot a bundle of fire arrows into the air, would they land as a fire arrow if I swapped to a frost weapon, or would they be fire?

Intuition would say: It's Fire.

The Devs say: It's Frost. Its your current weapon.

If I were to summon blades around myself, imbued with fire from my fire weapon, and I swap to a frost weapon, should those blades now be imbued with frost?

Now, I understand that the devs have a vision laid out for them, and they themselves stated they wish to make this game more consistent. So they should keep it consistent in that the current bar enchantment overrides the previous bar for every enchantment.

This means that:
Any Instance of a Damage Enchantment will always be the current bar enchantment
Any Duration Enchantment will be suppressed when off the bar it was cast from.
Any Modifying Enchantment will work while on the bar with that weapon.

The idea of an enchantment persisting while off-bar is wishful thinking, as it violates the idea of only the current bar enchantment working. Damage enchants (according to the devs) should only come from your current bar, and as such, to remain consistent, all enchantments should only be active while on the current bar, they should be suppressed otherwise to retain consistency.

Shadzilla

While I can acknowledge the bug, both vdsa and vma daggers need a buff to become viable again.

Jhalin

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

If I were to summon blades around myself, imbued with fire from my fire weapon, and I swap to a frost weapon, should those blades now be imbued with frost?

Now, I understand that the devs have a vision laid out for them, and they themselves stated they wish to make this game more consistent. So they should keep it consistent in that the current bar enchantment overrides the previous bar for every enchantment.

This means that:
Any Instance of a Damage Enchantment will always be the current bar enchantment
Any Duration Enchantment will be suppressed when off the bar it was cast from.
Any Modifying Enchantment will work while on the bar with that weapon.

The idea of an enchantment persisting while off-bar is wishful thinking, as it violates the idea of only the current bar enchantment working

Focus bold

Enchantment procs are determined on hit, which is when the damage occurs, not when an attack animation was started. That's why dodged attacks can't proc enchants.

Enchants that persist over a set timer function the exact same as the instant ones. They proc on active bar, and complete their process. For instants, that means they proc and do damage. For persistents, they start their timer. There's nothing complicated about this, and it is consistent for all standard enchants.

Maelstrom and DSA weapons have always been unique in that their enchant duration starts on cast, but they also function the same as the other timed enchants: proc on active bar and persist the full ability duration.

This means that:
Any Instance of a Damage Enchantment will always be the current bar enchantment
Any Duration Enchantment will be suppressed when off the bar it was cast from.
Any Modifying Enchantment will work while on the bar with that weapon.

1. This is already how it works
2. That would DESTROY maelstrom and DSA weapons
3. Modifying enchants don't exist, there are only instant damage and timed enchants

They will fix the DSA dagger bug, but they aren't going to gut vMA and vDSA backbar weapons just because one of them is bugged and youre unreasonably upset by it

ccfeeling

No vma and vdsa weapons , use crafted weapons instead , thats pathetic !

Avran_Sylt

@Jhalin

Right. So that means that if my Bleed is empowered by the vMA enchantment, it should be checking each tick to see if the daggers are equipped to add the Weapon damage to the ability from the enchantment. If it checks, and does not see the enchantment, then it should not add the extra weapon damage.

These are not on a timer, it is never specified, so they are on-hit. This is evident by how the vMA bow used up such a massive amount of charges before its QoL change.

This is exactly how the DW passives work as well (Swords, and Slaughter) . If I use Rend or the Bleed from Twin Slashes, or use blade cloak against an enemy that is below 25% hp, if I am not on the DW bar, they do not get the 20% damage bonus even though they were cast from the DW bar, and according to you, should be getting the 20% damage bonus while off-bar.

Jhalin

@Avran_Sylt

No, that is not how it works at all.

The duration of the vMA dagger enchant begins when the ability is used, and has the same duration as the bleed.

Passives aren't related to enchants in any way. They aren't triggered by abilities or attacks like enchants are. They are passive bonuses.

I honestly can't tell if your being intentionally dense.

code65536

@Avran_Sylt You clearly do not understand weapon enchantments in this game.

Enchantments that do damage are all instant single-application effects. That is, your fiery bow shoots a fire arrow that deals fire damage on impact. Done. Contrary to your bizarre claims, the enchantment does NOT do fire damage over time that somehow gets transformed to frost damage on a bar swap. (However, the enchantment has a chance to cause a the target to get the Burning effect, which does do damage over time, but that's from the effect, not from the enchantment, and that effect can be caused by other sources of fire damage.)

This is completely 100% intuitive. You light an arrow on fire, and then that arrow will do fire damage that is in addition to and separate from the impact of the arrow. And here, you would fully expect that if you bar swap to a frost weapon, that any additional attacks would not be fiery. (The patch note you quoted was specifically for fixing an issue where you were getting additional hits of the fiery weapon while holding the frost weapon.)

The vMA and vDSA enchantments do NOT actually do damage. What they do is empower the damage of an ability. This is an important conceptual distinction that you ignore. So, if you use Flurry with a vMA weapon, you are softening the enemy up and making that target vulnerable to the next DoT ability that you use. When that DoT does its empowered ticks, that's not the enchantment firing off; instead, that's existing damage that is hitting harder because of Flurry made the enemy more vulnerable. And here, it makes absolutely no sense why this empowerment would go away if you bar swap. If you softened your target up with your vMA daggers, why would they suddenly become resilient again just because you put those daggers down?

The key distinction here is additional damage resulting from the enchantment supplying an extra source of damage vs. additional damage resulting from the enchantment making existing damage more powerful.

Similarly, the vDSA enchantment makes your slashes cut deeper and more viciously so that the resulting bleed is much more potent. And it makes zero intuitive sense to say that the stronger bleed from a deeper, more vicious slash would suddenly get better just because you put away your vDSA daggers.

The current system is 100% intuitive and conceptually consistent. Your insistence otherwise seems to result from your clumsy conflation of all types of damage increase to be the same, even when they are starkly different conceptually and intuitively.

idk

One things that is clear from posts I have seen in this thread and a number of other threads, Code understands the mechanics very well.

His explanation and comments in this thread are spot on and very clear whereas you seem to confuse a number of separate aspects of the game as being similar or even somehow intended to be similar.

Shadzilla

Code = Gil the second confirmed.

Avran_Sylt

@code65536

Good! We're Getting somewhere.I want to address each of your points one a t a time.

code65536 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt You clearly do not understand weapon enchantments in this game.
Enchantments that do damage are all instant single-application effects. That is, your fiery bow shoots a fire arrow that deals fire damage on impact. Done. Contrary to your bizarre claims, the enchantment does NOT do fire damage over time that somehow gets transformed to frost damage on a bar swap. (However, the enchantment has a chance to cause a the target to get the Burning effect, which does do damage over time, but that's from the effect, not from the enchantment, and that effect can be caused by other sources of fire damage.)

This is completely 100% intuitive. You light an arrow on fire, and then that arrow will do fire damage that is in addition to and separate from the impact of the arrow. And here, you would fully expect that if you bar swap to a frost weapon, that any additional attacks would not be fiery. (The patch note you quoted was specifically for fixing an issue where you were getting additional hits of the fiery weapon while holding the frost weapon.)

So, we're both in agreement that if you shoot a fire imbued arrow, it should deal fire damage when it hits the target. Now, I want to bring up a few edge cases. Take volley for example. You fire a bundle of arrows into the sky, all of which had been imbued with fire from your bow .Now look at the first bolded line in your response. You agree, that its expected that these should be proccing the fire damage enchantment, right? That would be what is 'Intuitive' ?

code65536 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt You clearly do not understand weapon enchantments in this game.
The vMA and vDSA enchantments do NOT actually do damage. What they do is empower the damage of an ability. This is an important conceptual distinction that you ignore. So, if you use Flurry with a vMA weapon, you are softening the enemy up and making that target vulnerable to the next DoT ability that you use. When that DoT does its empowered ticks, that's not the enchantment firing off; instead, that's existing damage that is hitting harder because of Flurry made the enemy more vulnerable. And here, it makes absolutely no sense why this empowerment would go away if you bar swap. If you softened your target up with your vMA daggers, why would they suddenly become resilient again just because you put those daggers down?

The key distinction here is additional damage resulting from the enchantment supplying an extra source of damage vs. additional damage resulting from the enchantment making existing damage more powerful.

I'm in agreement here (cept the 2H vMA, that's just an added bleed)

code65536 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt You clearly do not understand weapon enchantments in this game.
Similarly, the vDSA enchantment makes your slashes cut deeper and more viciously so that the resulting bleed is much more potent. And it makes zero intuitive sense to say that the stronger bleed from a deeper, more vicious slash would suddenly get better just because you put away your vDSA daggers.

The current system is 100% intuitive and conceptually consistent. Your insistence otherwise seems to result from your clumsy conflation of all types of damage increase to be the same, even when they are starkly different conceptually and intuitively.

Except the current system is not intuitive anymore, nor was it. re-read my first quoted section on this comment about the volley example, and think about the recent changes to skills such as blade cloak, wall of elements. and let's discuss that. Then I implore you to reconsider what you consider 'Intuitive'. Why is a passive and an enchantment different if they both empower an ability? Why should a dot now deal less damage because I've swapped weapons (DW Swords,Slaughter)? Just because its a passive? Should it not have been empowered just like how the enchantment works? Why should my barrage of arrows start to proc a different enchantment when I swap bars? Is that Intuitive?

code65536

But your back bar volley doesn't fire a different enchantment when you bar swap.

The bug that they fixed was with back bar Blockade re-firing the back bar enchantment when you are on the front bar. This made no sense. And it's been fixed. It will still fire the back bar enchantment when you first cast Blockade on the back bar, but once you swap to the front, it will no longer re-fire that back bar enchantment. Same with Blade Cloak and other weapon DoTs.

Avran_Sylt

@code65536

Yes, Volley swaps between enchantments based on what bar you're on. Even though the ability was cast from a Fire enchantment weapon. Does that not seem unintuitive to you? The same goes with Wall of Elements, you imbued it with the fire enchantment, should it not consistently proc that enchantment? why would an ability cast with a staff now suddenly decide to proc the enchantment from a different weapon than it was cast from?