Igneous Shield - DK Healers and DK Tanks

IcyDeadPeople

This ability needs some adjustment. If you have played a DK healer, you will find the size of your ally shield has been drastically reduced with recent patches from around 5-6k down to 2k or so in PVE (below 1k in PVP). The purpose of this change was to stop high health (50-60k+) DK tanks from casting ginormous ally shields, which was not intended for the tank role.

Unfortunately, the end result is that the DK healer ally shield is so tiny, it is now useless for anything other than major mending. Typical DK tank self shield is around 12k-15k or so, much larger than ally shield cast by DK healer. When DK healer (or any other DK in the group) casts igneous shield, it overwrites the tank's larger shield.

Solutions? Some ideas:

1. Igneous shield does not overwrite self shield
Not sure if this is technically feasible, but would seem like a good fix.

2. Igneous shield stacks.
At an earlier stage in the game, perhaps 2-3 years ago, the self shield used to stack with the ally shield, so for example if I had cast igneous shield and another DK in the party cast this ability, I would end up with double the total shield size. This seems like a great option if possible

3. Size of ally shield scales with health of target
Helps the DK tank, but this might be overpowered in some situations, and it kind of runs counter to what DK healer is trying to do, which is primarily to keep the low health dps from dying.

4. Size of ally shield (and/or self shield) scales with Max Magicka of caster
This is the solution I'd prefer most, makes the signature ability DK healers uniquely bring to raids quite viable. The base size of the ally shield would probably need to be slightly reduced, but if DK healer can cast instant group shield in the range of say 8k-10k in PVE (4k-5k in PVP), it boosts DK healers up slightly closer to the level of templar and warden healers in some ways. Shifts the burden of keeping party alive with group shields from the tank role more appropriately to the DK healer role.

5. Separate morphs for healer vs tank
As long as they don't overwrite each other, perhaps one morph has larger ally shield, provides major mending and scales on magicka while the other has larger self shield and scales on health (or provides similar buffs like minor protection, minor mending, healing received, etc) - maybe one of the morphs only shields the caster?

Any other suggestions?

WillhelmBlack

Scrap it, give another DK spell the Major Mending buff.

Pastas

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

This ability needs some adjustment. If you have played a DK healer, you will find the size of your ally shield has been drastically reduced with recent patches from around 5-6k down to 2k or so in PVE (below 1k in PVP). The purpose of this change was to stop high health (50-60k+) DK tanks from casting ginormous ally shields, which was not intended for the tank role.

Unfortunately, the end result is that the DK healer ally shield is so tiny, it is now useless for anything other than major mending. Typical DK tank self shield is around 4x the size of ally shield cast by DK healer. When DK healer casts igneous shield, it overwrites the tank's larger shield.

Solutions? Some ideas:

1. Igneous shield does not overwrite self shield
Not sure if this is technically feasible, but would seem like a good fix.

2. Igneous shield stacks.
At an earlier stage in the game, perhaps 2-3 years ago, the self shield used to stack with the ally shield, so for example if I had cast igneous shield and another DK in the party cast this ability, I would end up with double the total shield size. This seems like a great option if possible

3. Size of ally shield scales with health of target
Helps the DK tank, but this might be overpowered in some situations, and it kind of runs counter to what DK healer is trying to do, which is primarily to keep the low health dps from dying.

4. Size of ally shield (and/or self shield) scales with Max Magicka of caster
This is the solution I'd prefer most, makes the signature ability DK healers uniquely bring to raids quite viable. The base size of the ally shield would probably need to be slightly reduced, but if DK healer can cast instant group shield in the range of say 8k-10k in PVE (4k-5k in PVP), it boosts DK healers up slightly closer to the level of templar and warden healers in some ways. Shifts the burden of keeping party alive with group shields from the tank role more appropriately to the DK healer role.

Any other suggestions?

No need to change this skill, it is a must have for PvE tanking and PvP. It was designed as a health based shield, so it makes sense that tank builds are the ones taking advantage on it.

I specially dislike you suggestion number 4, we have enough magicka staking shields in this game.

IcyDeadPeople

Pastas wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

This ability needs some adjustment. If you have played a DK healer, you will find the size of your ally shield has been drastically reduced with recent patches from around 5-6k down to 2k or so in PVE (below 1k in PVP). The purpose of this change was to stop high health (50-60k+) DK tanks from casting ginormous ally shields, which was not intended for the tank role.

Unfortunately, the end result is that the DK healer ally shield is so tiny, it is now useless for anything other than major mending. Typical DK tank self shield is around 4x the size of ally shield cast by DK healer. When DK healer casts igneous shield, it overwrites the tank's larger shield.

Solutions? Some ideas:

1. Igneous shield does not overwrite self shield
Not sure if this is technically feasible, but would seem like a good fix.

2. Igneous shield stacks.
At an earlier stage in the game, perhaps 2-3 years ago, the self shield used to stack with the ally shield, so for example if I had cast igneous shield and another DK in the party cast this ability, I would end up with double the total shield size. This seems like a great option if possible

3. Size of ally shield scales with health of target
Helps the DK tank, but this might be overpowered in some situations, and it kind of runs counter to what DK healer is trying to do, which is primarily to keep the low health dps from dying.

4. Size of ally shield (and/or self shield) scales with Max Magicka of caster
This is the solution I'd prefer most, makes the signature ability DK healers uniquely bring to raids quite viable. The base size of the ally shield would probably need to be slightly reduced, but if DK healer can cast instant group shield in the range of say 8k-10k in PVE (4k-5k in PVP), it boosts DK healers up slightly closer to the level of templar and warden healers in some ways. Shifts the burden of keeping party alive with group shields from the tank role more appropriately to the DK healer role.

Any other suggestions?

No need to change this skill, it is a must have for PvE tanking and PvP. It was designed as a health based shield, so it makes sense that tank builds are the ones taking advantage on it.

I specially dislike you suggestion number 4, we have enough magicka staking shields in this game.

Why not let the DK healer give your tank the shield instead? If the tank needs stamina from helping hands while blocking, he can spam any other earthen heart ability, fossilize, molten weapons, obsidian shard.

At any rate you must agree this ability is not working very well when it keeps getting overwritten by smaller shield.

Inarre

They should change it to scales based on your highest resource, or, up the shield payoff slightly for lower health dks giving shield to allies.

theamazingx

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

This ability needs some adjustment. If you have played a DK healer, you will find the size of your ally shield has been drastically reduced with recent patches from around 5-6k down to 2k or so in PVE (below 1k in PVP). The purpose of this change was to stop high health (50-60k+) DK tanks from casting ginormous ally shields, which was not intended for the tank role.

Unfortunately, the end result is that the DK healer ally shield is so tiny, it is now useless for anything other than major mending. Typical DK tank self shield is around 4x the size of ally shield cast by DK healer. When DK healer casts igneous shield, it overwrites the tank's larger shield.

Solutions? Some ideas:

1. Igneous shield does not overwrite self shield
Not sure if this is technically feasible, but would seem like a good fix.

2. Igneous shield stacks.
At an earlier stage in the game, perhaps 2-3 years ago, the self shield used to stack with the ally shield, so for example if I had cast igneous shield and another DK in the party cast this ability, I would end up with double the total shield size. This seems like a great option if possible

3. Size of ally shield scales with health of target
Helps the DK tank, but this might be overpowered in some situations, and it kind of runs counter to what DK healer is trying to do, which is primarily to keep the low health dps from dying.

4. Size of ally shield (and/or self shield) scales with Max Magicka of caster
This is the solution I'd prefer most, makes the signature ability DK healers uniquely bring to raids quite viable. The base size of the ally shield would probably need to be slightly reduced, but if DK healer can cast instant group shield in the range of say 8k-10k in PVE (4k-5k in PVP), it boosts DK healers up slightly closer to the level of templar and warden healers in some ways. Shifts the burden of keeping party alive with group shields from the tank role more appropriately to the DK healer role.

Any other suggestions?

No need to change this skill, it is a must have for PvE tanking and PvP. It was designed as a health based shield, so it makes sense that tank builds are the ones taking advantage on it.

I specially dislike you suggestion number 4, we have enough magicka staking shields in this game.

Why not let the DK healer give your tank the shield instead? If the tank needs stamina from helping hands while blocking, he can spam any other earthen heart ability, fossilize, molten weapons, obsidian shard.

At any rate you must agree this ability is not working very well when it keeps getting overwritten by smaller shield.

Tanks often use the major mending for vigor and dragon blood, not to mention the shield itself mitigating damage. And if they're running with a DK healer, they'll probably need that. Making it not overwrite would be a nice solution,

cpuScientist

Wow just no thanks. A shield stacking mag do in PvP. That's some scary stuff.

It's a tank skill, and a good one. It along with stat gen from ulti, is the identity of the DK tank

paulsimonps

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

This ability needs some adjustment. If you have played a DK healer, you will find the size of your ally shield has been drastically reduced with recent patches from around 5-6k down to 2k or so in PVE (below 1k in PVP). The purpose of this change was to stop high health (50-60k+) DK tanks from casting ginormous ally shields, which was not intended for the tank role.

Unfortunately, the end result is that the DK healer ally shield is so tiny, it is now useless for anything other than major mending. Typical DK tank self shield is around 4x the size of ally shield cast by DK healer. When DK healer casts igneous shield, it overwrites the tank's larger shield.

Solutions? Some ideas:

1. Igneous shield does not overwrite self shield
Not sure if this is technically feasible, but would seem like a good fix.

2. Igneous shield stacks.
At an earlier stage in the game, perhaps 2-3 years ago, the self shield used to stack with the ally shield, so for example if I had cast igneous shield and another DK in the party cast this ability, I would end up with double the total shield size. This seems like a great option if possible

3. Size of ally shield scales with health of target
Helps the DK tank, but this might be overpowered in some situations, and it kind of runs counter to what DK healer is trying to do, which is primarily to keep the low health dps from dying.

4. Size of ally shield (and/or self shield) scales with Max Magicka of caster
This is the solution I'd prefer most, makes the signature ability DK healers uniquely bring to raids quite viable. The base size of the ally shield would probably need to be slightly reduced, but if DK healer can cast instant group shield in the range of say 8k-10k in PVE (4k-5k in PVP), it boosts DK healers up slightly closer to the level of templar and warden healers in some ways. Shifts the burden of keeping party alive with group shields from the tank role more appropriately to the DK healer role.

Any other suggestions?

No need to change this skill, it is a must have for PvE tanking and PvP. It was designed as a health based shield, so it makes sense that tank builds are the ones taking advantage on it.

I specially dislike you suggestion number 4, we have enough magicka staking shields in this game.

Why not let the DK healer give your tank the shield instead? If the tank needs stamina from helping hands while blocking, he can spam any other earthen heart ability, fossilize, molten weapons, obsidian shard.

At any rate you must agree this ability is not working very well when it keeps getting overwritten by smaller shield.

The question is not why not let the healer do it, the question is why would you want the healer to do it when the tanks do it so much better already.

Like @WillhelmBlack said, give Major Mending to another skill instead would be a better suggestion. Like the 2 other healing abilities of the DKs, the Obsidian Shard and Cauterize.

IcyDeadPeople

paulsimonps wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

This ability needs some adjustment. If you have played a DK healer, you will find the size of your ally shield has been drastically reduced with recent patches from around 5-6k down to 2k or so in PVE (below 1k in PVP). The purpose of this change was to stop high health (50-60k+) DK tanks from casting ginormous ally shields, which was not intended for the tank role.

Unfortunately, the end result is that the DK healer ally shield is so tiny, it is now useless for anything other than major mending. Typical DK tank self shield is around 4x the size of ally shield cast by DK healer. When DK healer casts igneous shield, it overwrites the tank's larger shield.

Solutions? Some ideas:

1. Igneous shield does not overwrite self shield
Not sure if this is technically feasible, but would seem like a good fix.

2. Igneous shield stacks.
At an earlier stage in the game, perhaps 2-3 years ago, the self shield used to stack with the ally shield, so for example if I had cast igneous shield and another DK in the party cast this ability, I would end up with double the total shield size. This seems like a great option if possible

3. Size of ally shield scales with health of target
Helps the DK tank, but this might be overpowered in some situations, and it kind of runs counter to what DK healer is trying to do, which is primarily to keep the low health dps from dying.

4. Size of ally shield (and/or self shield) scales with Max Magicka of caster
This is the solution I'd prefer most, makes the signature ability DK healers uniquely bring to raids quite viable. The base size of the ally shield would probably need to be slightly reduced, but if DK healer can cast instant group shield in the range of say 8k-10k in PVE (4k-5k in PVP), it boosts DK healers up slightly closer to the level of templar and warden healers in some ways. Shifts the burden of keeping party alive with group shields from the tank role more appropriately to the DK healer role.

Any other suggestions?

No need to change this skill, it is a must have for PvE tanking and PvP. It was designed as a health based shield, so it makes sense that tank builds are the ones taking advantage on it.

I specially dislike you suggestion number 4, we have enough magicka staking shields in this game.

Why not let the DK healer give your tank the shield instead? If the tank needs stamina from helping hands while blocking, he can spam any other earthen heart ability, fossilize, molten weapons, obsidian shard.

At any rate you must agree this ability is not working very well when it keeps getting overwritten by smaller shield.

The question is not why not let the healer do it, the question is why would you want the healer to do it when the tanks do it so much better already.

Like @WillhelmBlack said, give Major Mending to another skill instead would be a better suggestion. Like the 2 other healing abilities of the DKs, the Obsidian Shard and Cauterize.

It's not a good fit with the tank's role to keep the entire party alive, keep watching everyone's health bars to see if anyone is getting low, etc. A large group shield is an instant heal, and it's possible for it to be quite significant. The DK healer is much better suited for this, with high magicka stat pool and high mag recovery. It's the tank's role to keep themselves alive, keep boss aggro and debuff or cc the boss.

paulsimonps

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

This ability needs some adjustment. If you have played a DK healer, you will find the size of your ally shield has been drastically reduced with recent patches from around 5-6k down to 2k or so in PVE (below 1k in PVP). The purpose of this change was to stop high health (50-60k+) DK tanks from casting ginormous ally shields, which was not intended for the tank role.

Unfortunately, the end result is that the DK healer ally shield is so tiny, it is now useless for anything other than major mending. Typical DK tank self shield is around 4x the size of ally shield cast by DK healer. When DK healer casts igneous shield, it overwrites the tank's larger shield.

Solutions? Some ideas:

1. Igneous shield does not overwrite self shield
Not sure if this is technically feasible, but would seem like a good fix.

2. Igneous shield stacks.
At an earlier stage in the game, perhaps 2-3 years ago, the self shield used to stack with the ally shield, so for example if I had cast igneous shield and another DK in the party cast this ability, I would end up with double the total shield size. This seems like a great option if possible

3. Size of ally shield scales with health of target
Helps the DK tank, but this might be overpowered in some situations, and it kind of runs counter to what DK healer is trying to do, which is primarily to keep the low health dps from dying.

4. Size of ally shield (and/or self shield) scales with Max Magicka of caster
This is the solution I'd prefer most, makes the signature ability DK healers uniquely bring to raids quite viable. The base size of the ally shield would probably need to be slightly reduced, but if DK healer can cast instant group shield in the range of say 8k-10k in PVE (4k-5k in PVP), it boosts DK healers up slightly closer to the level of templar and warden healers in some ways. Shifts the burden of keeping party alive with group shields from the tank role more appropriately to the DK healer role.

Any other suggestions?

No need to change this skill, it is a must have for PvE tanking and PvP. It was designed as a health based shield, so it makes sense that tank builds are the ones taking advantage on it.

I specially dislike you suggestion number 4, we have enough magicka staking shields in this game.

Why not let the DK healer give your tank the shield instead? If the tank needs stamina from helping hands while blocking, he can spam any other earthen heart ability, fossilize, molten weapons, obsidian shard.

At any rate you must agree this ability is not working very well when it keeps getting overwritten by smaller shield.

The question is not why not let the healer do it, the question is why would you want the healer to do it when the tanks do it so much better already.

Like @WillhelmBlack said, give Major Mending to another skill instead would be a better suggestion. Like the 2 other healing abilities of the DKs, the Obsidian Shard and Cauterize.

It's not a good fit with the tank's role to keep the entire party alive, keep watching everyone's health bars to see if anyone is getting low, etc. A large group shield is an instant heal, and it's possible for it to be quite significant. The DK healer is much better suited for this, with high magicka stat pool and high mag recovery. It's the tank's role to keep themselves alive, keep boss aggro and debuff or cc the boss.

I play tank, have played tank since Beta. 90% of my play time is on my DK Tank. Do you know how easy it is to Spam Igneous shields as a tank? Its really really really easy. And being able to use it in tight situations on top of the already strong heals of the healers is a far better combo than having the healers use shields rather than heals. And most DK tanks have really high magicka recovery too. The Tank role is perfect for giving this type of shield.

IcyDeadPeople

paulsimonps wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

This ability needs some adjustment. If you have played a DK healer, you will find the size of your ally shield has been drastically reduced with recent patches from around 5-6k down to 2k or so in PVE (below 1k in PVP). The purpose of this change was to stop high health (50-60k+) DK tanks from casting ginormous ally shields, which was not intended for the tank role.

Unfortunately, the end result is that the DK healer ally shield is so tiny, it is now useless for anything other than major mending. Typical DK tank self shield is around 4x the size of ally shield cast by DK healer. When DK healer casts igneous shield, it overwrites the tank's larger shield.

Solutions? Some ideas:

1. Igneous shield does not overwrite self shield
Not sure if this is technically feasible, but would seem like a good fix.

2. Igneous shield stacks.
At an earlier stage in the game, perhaps 2-3 years ago, the self shield used to stack with the ally shield, so for example if I had cast igneous shield and another DK in the party cast this ability, I would end up with double the total shield size. This seems like a great option if possible

3. Size of ally shield scales with health of target
Helps the DK tank, but this might be overpowered in some situations, and it kind of runs counter to what DK healer is trying to do, which is primarily to keep the low health dps from dying.

4. Size of ally shield (and/or self shield) scales with Max Magicka of caster
This is the solution I'd prefer most, makes the signature ability DK healers uniquely bring to raids quite viable. The base size of the ally shield would probably need to be slightly reduced, but if DK healer can cast instant group shield in the range of say 8k-10k in PVE (4k-5k in PVP), it boosts DK healers up slightly closer to the level of templar and warden healers in some ways. Shifts the burden of keeping party alive with group shields from the tank role more appropriately to the DK healer role.

Any other suggestions?

No need to change this skill, it is a must have for PvE tanking and PvP. It was designed as a health based shield, so it makes sense that tank builds are the ones taking advantage on it.

I specially dislike you suggestion number 4, we have enough magicka staking shields in this game.

Why not let the DK healer give your tank the shield instead? If the tank needs stamina from helping hands while blocking, he can spam any other earthen heart ability, fossilize, molten weapons, obsidian shard.

At any rate you must agree this ability is not working very well when it keeps getting overwritten by smaller shield.

The question is not why not let the healer do it, the question is why would you want the healer to do it when the tanks do it so much better already.

Like @WillhelmBlack said, give Major Mending to another skill instead would be a better suggestion. Like the 2 other healing abilities of the DKs, the Obsidian Shard and Cauterize.

It's not a good fit with the tank's role to keep the entire party alive, keep watching everyone's health bars to see if anyone is getting low, etc. A large group shield is an instant heal, and it's possible for it to be quite significant. The DK healer is much better suited for this, with high magicka stat pool and high mag recovery. It's the tank's role to keep themselves alive, keep boss aggro and debuff or cc the boss.

I play tank, have played tank since Beta. 90% of my play time is on my DK Tank. Do you know how easy it is to Spam Igneous shields as a tank? Its really really really easy. And being able to use it in tight situations on top of the already strong heals of the healers is a far better combo than having the healers use shields rather than heals. And most DK tanks have really high magicka recovery too. The Tank role is perfect for giving this type of shield.

The shield is a heal. If you are playing a tank build with high mag recovery and spamming a large group shield, you are not just a tank, but you are also playing the healer role, healing the entire party. If you are doing a good job at this, then you are keeping a close eye on your party's health bars, making sure to cast shield to keep people from dying etc.

I'd simply like to see the DK healer able to bring useful size shield to the raid, in the range of 8k-10k PVE / 4-5k PVP (which is close to what it used to be back in the day). I'm sure there is a path for this which does not cause tremendous problem for DK tanks. At any rate, in the current situation even the tanks's self shield is unfortunately being overwritten by a much smaller shield.

paulsimonps

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

This ability needs some adjustment. If you have played a DK healer, you will find the size of your ally shield has been drastically reduced with recent patches from around 5-6k down to 2k or so in PVE (below 1k in PVP). The purpose of this change was to stop high health (50-60k+) DK tanks from casting ginormous ally shields, which was not intended for the tank role.

Unfortunately, the end result is that the DK healer ally shield is so tiny, it is now useless for anything other than major mending. Typical DK tank self shield is around 4x the size of ally shield cast by DK healer. When DK healer casts igneous shield, it overwrites the tank's larger shield.

Solutions? Some ideas:

1. Igneous shield does not overwrite self shield
Not sure if this is technically feasible, but would seem like a good fix.

2. Igneous shield stacks.
At an earlier stage in the game, perhaps 2-3 years ago, the self shield used to stack with the ally shield, so for example if I had cast igneous shield and another DK in the party cast this ability, I would end up with double the total shield size. This seems like a great option if possible

3. Size of ally shield scales with health of target
Helps the DK tank, but this might be overpowered in some situations, and it kind of runs counter to what DK healer is trying to do, which is primarily to keep the low health dps from dying.

4. Size of ally shield (and/or self shield) scales with Max Magicka of caster
This is the solution I'd prefer most, makes the signature ability DK healers uniquely bring to raids quite viable. The base size of the ally shield would probably need to be slightly reduced, but if DK healer can cast instant group shield in the range of say 8k-10k in PVE (4k-5k in PVP), it boosts DK healers up slightly closer to the level of templar and warden healers in some ways. Shifts the burden of keeping party alive with group shields from the tank role more appropriately to the DK healer role.

Any other suggestions?

No need to change this skill, it is a must have for PvE tanking and PvP. It was designed as a health based shield, so it makes sense that tank builds are the ones taking advantage on it.

I specially dislike you suggestion number 4, we have enough magicka staking shields in this game.

Why not let the DK healer give your tank the shield instead? If the tank needs stamina from helping hands while blocking, he can spam any other earthen heart ability, fossilize, molten weapons, obsidian shard.

At any rate you must agree this ability is not working very well when it keeps getting overwritten by smaller shield.

The question is not why not let the healer do it, the question is why would you want the healer to do it when the tanks do it so much better already.

Like @WillhelmBlack said, give Major Mending to another skill instead would be a better suggestion. Like the 2 other healing abilities of the DKs, the Obsidian Shard and Cauterize.

It's not a good fit with the tank's role to keep the entire party alive, keep watching everyone's health bars to see if anyone is getting low, etc. A large group shield is an instant heal, and it's possible for it to be quite significant. The DK healer is much better suited for this, with high magicka stat pool and high mag recovery. It's the tank's role to keep themselves alive, keep boss aggro and debuff or cc the boss.

I play tank, have played tank since Beta. 90% of my play time is on my DK Tank. Do you know how easy it is to Spam Igneous shields as a tank? Its really really really easy. And being able to use it in tight situations on top of the already strong heals of the healers is a far better combo than having the healers use shields rather than heals. And most DK tanks have really high magicka recovery too. The Tank role is perfect for giving this type of shield.

The shield is a heal. If you are playing a tank build with high mag recovery and spamming a large group shield, you are not just a tank, but you are also playing the healer role, healing the entire party. If you are doing a good job at this, then you are keeping a close eye on your party's health bars, making sure to cast shield to keep people from dying etc.

I'd simply like to see the DK healer able to bring useful size shield to the raid, in the range of 8k-10k PVE / 4-5k PVP (which is close to what it used to be back in the day). I'm sure there is a path for this which does not cause tremendous problem for DK tanks. At any rate, in the current situation even the tanks's self shield is unfortunately being overwritten by a much smaller shield.

SHIELD=/=HEAL There are PvE Mechanics that go through shields and mitigation where only health and healing will help you survive it. Saying Shield are Heals is very inaccurate and unhelpful. Even in PvP its the same cause of Oblivion Damage. And high magicka recovery DKs spamming Igneous shield has been a super common Tank set up since a long time back, its a Tank thing, not a healer thing. Its unique to the DKs, and the DKs are Meta Tanks. If you tank Trials you are also usually the Raid Leader, and keeping track of your teams movement and health is not uncommon, as well as keeping track of buff/debuff uptimes, stuff like that is what separate a good tank with a great tank.

exeeter702

Honestly, the problem is 2 fold. If you take away major mending from igneous sheild, you will have upset stam dks in pvp, despite the duration nerf, it is still used for a few hot ticks with MM up. And if you adjust igneous shield to benefit a magicka based healer over the tank, you will upset dk tanks that utilize the high health sheild for trial groups.

Personally i would take to weening dk tanks off the skill and move it to dk healers as a measure of damage prevention / proactive healing. Having a morph scale off of max magicka would also open doors for magicka dks to pvp in light armor and without sword and board.

You could move major mending to igneous weapons, a skill that generally only a dk healer would take as it opens up skill slots or potion options for dps in a trial group. Cheapen its cost so dk healers can still benefit from 6 second refresh mountains blessing. Obviously MM on this skill would have a 3 sec duration at most. You could then possibly give one morph of obsidian shield a longer minor mending uptime that scales off of max health and another morph which scales off of magicka. This leaves the dk tank with a more obvious choice and the dk healer will have to decide between increased healing throughput or trial mitigation, a choice that would be determined by which tanks and healers are being used.

A point of mention is that currently dk healers are capable of competitive / comparable HPS and having access to major and minor mending would raise some eyebrows and push them above that average. I dont think it would be that bad honestly.

IcyDeadPeople

exeeter702 wrote: »

Honestly, the problem is 2 fold. If you take away major mending from igneous sheild, you will have upset stam dks in pvp, despite the duration nerf, it is still used for a few hot ticks with MM up. And if you adjust igneous shield to benefit a magicka based healer over the tank, you will upset dk tanks that utilize the high health sheild for trial groups.

Personally i would take to weening dk tanks off the skill and move it to dk healers as a measure of damage prevention / proactive healing. Having a morph scale off of max magicka would also open doors for magicka dks to pvp in light armor and without sword and board.

You could move major mending to igneous weapons, a skill that generally only a dk healer would take as it opens up skill slots or potion options for dps in a trial group. Cheapen its cost so dk healers can still benefit from 6 second refresh mountains blessing. Obviously MM on this skill would have a 3 sec duration at most. You could then possibly give one morph of obsidian shield a longer minor mending uptime that scales off of max health and another morph which scales off of magicka. This leaves the dk tank with a more obvious choice and the dk healer will have to decide between increased healing throughput or trial mitigation, a choice that would be determined by which tanks and healers are being used.

Interesting idea about adjusting the different morphs.

What do you think about having one morph of igneous shield provide major mending and shield size scales on max magicka, while the other morph provides major vitality (+30% Healing Received) and scales on max health? Whether they stack or not, I don't know, but ideally the two morphs should not overwrite each other.

Does anyone even use fragmented shield? And might also work using igneous weapons as you mentioned.

exeeter702 wrote: »

A point of mention is that currently dk healers are capable of competitive / comparable HPS and having access to major and minor mending would raise some eyebrows and push them above that average. I dont think it would be that bad honestly.

I don't believe these changes would bring them up to the same level as templar and warden healers, but rather slightly narrow the gap.

Thogard

ZOS has been making it abundantly clear that if you play a DK, the only role you should have is "tank" . Whether that's a Mag DK tank or Stam DK tank is up to you.

You can try to do PvE DPS if you want to. Apparently that works really well. You just wouldn't slot a single DK DPS ability because they're all garbage. You'd just heavy attack 4tw.

DK healing? Forget about it.

exeeter702

Thogard wrote: »

ZOS has been making it abundantly clear that if you play a DK, the only role you should have is "tank" . Whether that's a Mag DK tank or Stam DK tank is up to you.

You can try to do PvE DPS if you want to. Apparently that works really well. You just wouldn't slot a single DK DPS ability because they're all garbage. You'd just heavy attack 4tw.

DK healing? Forget about it.

Yeah hilarious right? Templar thread opens up about how to improve mag templar dps in a trail and a dialogue ensues, no one bats an eye.

Dk thread opens up about how to improve the QoL and performance of a dk healer and its an eye rolling joke.

Zos accidentally gave them a selfless heal via cauterize

Zos accidentally changed their magma shell ultimate to be a trial wide damage mitigation ultimate

Zos accidentally changed obsidian shard to provide a burst heal to allies and then accidentally buffed it further in Hotr.

Clearly zos wants nothing more than for DKs to be tanks..........
(Oh yeah and dps too)







(just not healing! No way, that is crossing the line!)

exeeter702

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Honestly, the problem is 2 fold. If you take away major mending from igneous sheild, you will have upset stam dks in pvp, despite the duration nerf, it is still used for a few hot ticks with MM up. And if you adjust igneous shield to benefit a magicka based healer over the tank, you will upset dk tanks that utilize the high health sheild for trial groups.

Personally i would take to weening dk tanks off the skill and move it to dk healers as a measure of damage prevention / proactive healing. Having a morph scale off of max magicka would also open doors for magicka dks to pvp in light armor and without sword and board.

You could move major mending to igneous weapons, a skill that generally only a dk healer would take as it opens up skill slots or potion options for dps in a trial group. Cheapen its cost so dk healers can still benefit from 6 second refresh mountains blessing. Obviously MM on this skill would have a 3 sec duration at most. You could then possibly give one morph of obsidian shield a longer minor mending uptime that scales off of max health and another morph which scales off of magicka. This leaves the dk tank with a more obvious choice and the dk healer will have to decide between increased healing throughput or trial mitigation, a choice that would be determined by which tanks and healers are being used.

Interesting idea about adjusting the different morphs.

What do you think about having one morph of igneous shield provide major mending and shield size scales on max magicka, while the other morph provides major vitality (+30% Healing Received) and scales on max health? Whether they stack or not, I don't know, but ideally the two morphs should not overwrite each other.

Does anyone even use fragmented shield? And might also work using igneous weapons as you mentioned.

exeeter702 wrote: »

A point of mention is that currently dk healers are capable of competitive / comparable HPS and having access to major and minor mending would raise some eyebrows and push them above that average. I dont think it would be that bad honestly.

I don't believe these changes would bring them up to the same level as templar and warden healers, but rather slightly narrow the gap.

I considered the major vitality option. The issue is between GDB minor vitality and burning heart passive, giving them major vitality would be overkill and create insanely resilient dks in pvp.

Inarre

Thogard wrote: »

ZOS has been making it abundantly clear that if you play a DK, the only role you should have is "tank" . Whether that's a Mag DK tank or Stam DK tank is up to you.

You can try to do PvE DPS if you want to. Apparently that works really well. You just wouldn't slot a single DK DPS ability because they're all garbage. You'd just heavy attack 4tw.

DK healing? Forget about it.

I find it absurd that they (zos) have been breaking their butts changing templar so it is not the most viable healer, yet they make changes to nerf the DK tank (secondary reason likely would be to make it so DK wasn't a must-choose tank) which in effect nerfs the DK healer... Which, come full circle, causes templar to come out on top for healing again.

Basically it's a vicious cycle of nerfs that never really result in a balanced class choice for roles. They need to be more careful to think of the classes other more "niche" roles and playstyles when making blanket nerfs like this if they are focused on creating viable (more popular) choices out of these class roles.

paulsimonps

Thogard wrote: »

ZOS has been making it abundantly clear that if you play a DK, the only role you should have is "tank" . Whether that's a Mag DK tank or Stam DK tank is up to you.

You can try to do PvE DPS if you want to. Apparently that works really well. You just wouldn't slot a single DK DPS ability because they're all garbage. You'd just heavy attack 4tw.

DK healing? Forget about it.

I love those comments on DPS, cause its totally not like DK Stam DPS is really powerful or anything, and they totally don't use their class abilities all the time as both Stamina and Magicka. Nah never happens.

Thogard

paulsimonps wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ZOS has been making it abundantly clear that if you play a DK, the only role you should have is "tank" . Whether that's a Mag DK tank or Stam DK tank is up to you.

You can try to do PvE DPS if you want to. Apparently that works really well. You just wouldn't slot a single DK DPS ability because they're all garbage. You'd just heavy attack 4tw.

DK healing? Forget about it.

I love those comments on DPS, cause its totally not like DK Stam DPS is really powerful or anything, and they totally don't use their class abilities all the time as both Stamina and Magicka. Nah never happens.

I'm a PvP player, so yeah, it's rare for DKs to use class abilities in PvP.

I don't care to PvE. I've been told that Stam DKs have the best DPS in PvE but when I asked for what rotations they run, I didn't notice any DK dmg abilities in them.

Couldn't care less about PvE balance though.

paulsimonps

Thogard wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ZOS has been making it abundantly clear that if you play a DK, the only role you should have is "tank" . Whether that's a Mag DK tank or Stam DK tank is up to you.

You can try to do PvE DPS if you want to. Apparently that works really well. You just wouldn't slot a single DK DPS ability because they're all garbage. You'd just heavy attack 4tw.

DK healing? Forget about it.

I love those comments on DPS, cause its totally not like DK Stam DPS is really powerful or anything, and they totally don't use their class abilities all the time as both Stamina and Magicka. Nah never happens.

I'm a PvP player, so yeah, it's rare for DKs to use class abilities in PvP.

I don't care to PvE. I've been told that Stam DKs have the best DPS in PvE but when I asked for what rotations they run, I didn't notice any DK dmg abilities in them.

Couldn't care less about PvE balance though.

The kind of thinking that over and over screwed over the PvE Side of the game.

exeeter702

Thogard wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ZOS has been making it abundantly clear that if you play a DK, the only role you should have is "tank" . Whether that's a Mag DK tank or Stam DK tank is up to you.

You can try to do PvE DPS if you want to. Apparently that works really well. You just wouldn't slot a single DK DPS ability because they're all garbage. You'd just heavy attack 4tw.

DK healing? Forget about it.

I love those comments on DPS, cause its totally not like DK Stam DPS is really powerful or anything, and they totally don't use their class abilities all the time as both Stamina and Magicka. Nah never happens.

I'm a PvP player, so yeah, it's rare for DKs to use class abilities in PvP.

I don't care to PvE. I've been told that Stam DKs have the best DPS in PvE but when I asked for what rotations they run, I didn't notice any DK dmg abilities in them.

Couldn't care less about PvE balance though.

Then i would ask why you felt compelled to interject into what is ostensibly a pve oriented thread with a pve oriented comment.

Dubhliam

Templars can manage healing without shielding allies.
Wardens can manage healing without shielding allies.
Nightblades can manage healing without shielding allies.
Sorcerers can manage healing without shielding allies.

Why you need to shield allies as a DK healer? Let the tank shield, you do the healing.

WaltherCarraway

No, just no. However, if Igneous shield going to scale with max mag then I will be super happy.

IcyDeadPeople

Dubhliam wrote: »

Templars can manage healing without shielding allies.
Wardens can manage healing without shielding allies.
Nightblades can manage healing without shielding allies.
Sorcerers can manage healing without shielding allies.

Why you need to shield allies as a DK healer? Let the tank shield, you do the healing.

First, you get major mending from the shield.

Second, you can say the same about any class unique healing abilities.

Nightblade, Sorc, Wardens and DK can manage healing without Breath of Life and Extended Ritual (and Templar healing passives)

Templar, NB, Sorc and DK can manage healing without Betty Netch, Budding Seeds, Enchanted Growth etc
and so on..

Any class (including DK) can heal, dps or tank effectively and complete all the content, even a few on the PVE leaderboards. However, templar and warden are stronger healers by far. Making the DK healer's unique class shield at least large enough to be useful again just brings them up slightly on the spectrum. Not to mention the fact there are quite a few tanks in this game who are not DK and would not be able to provide the shield.

Thogard

exeeter702 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ZOS has been making it abundantly clear that if you play a DK, the only role you should have is "tank" . Whether that's a Mag DK tank or Stam DK tank is up to you.

You can try to do PvE DPS if you want to. Apparently that works really well. You just wouldn't slot a single DK DPS ability because they're all garbage. You'd just heavy attack 4tw.

DK healing? Forget about it.

I love those comments on DPS, cause its totally not like DK Stam DPS is really powerful or anything, and they totally don't use their class abilities all the time as both Stamina and Magicka. Nah never happens.

I'm a PvP player, so yeah, it's rare for DKs to use class abilities in PvP.

I don't care to PvE. I've been told that Stam DKs have the best DPS in PvE but when I asked for what rotations they run, I didn't notice any DK dmg abilities in them.

Couldn't care less about PvE balance though.

Then i would ask why you felt compelled to interject into what is ostensibly a pve oriented thread with a pve oriented comment.

It's not... this is the general boards, not the PvE boards, and OP specifically brings up the PvP value of the shields.

But really... balance in PvE is a bit pointless. You're competing with preprogrammed monsters, not against another player. Why does something being OP matter if you're never put in an adversarial position against it? Especially when you're building off of synergies in a group...

But I don't want to hijack the thread with a PvE vs PvP balance discussion.

Suffice it to say that Stam DPS DKs are significantly underperforming in PvP. So are healer DKs.

Tasear

Didn't I create a similar thread after this went live? A bit conflicted since my tank uses the shield. Though let toss in some input, seems a trade off between good timing Shields and constant Shields at least from my perspective. Lets get @Elloa opinion how have you felt about such changes?

ak_pvp

Inarre wrote: »

They should change it to scales based on your highest resource, or, up the shield payoff slightly for lower health dks giving shield to allies.

Shield stacking blocktato DKs with mending.

No bueno.

Now, a bigger shield to allies though. That has me happy. It can effectively be DKs Ohshit heal button like BoL or healyward.

Inarre

ak_pvp wrote: »

Inarre wrote: »

They should change it to scales based on your highest resource, or, up the shield payoff slightly for lower health dks giving shield to allies.

Shield stacking blocktato DKs with mending.

No bueno.

Now, a bigger shield to allies though. That has me happy. It can effectively be DKs Ohshit heal button like BoL or healyward.

Yes youre right. Terribad at math but i would guess a self shield from a 17k health/40k mag dk healer would be of sorc proportions. My mind was with the allies shield, not with the dk in mind. You make an excellent point.

Asardes

IMO ingenous shield should scale to allies' health. Make it 1/3. A 15K shield for the tank and a 6K one for everyone else is quite good. Magma shell and bone shield also scale on the target's health.

ak_pvp

DK shield should be like their heal. The lower the health, the higher the shield, would make a great ohshit shielding for your group.

Cauterize and obsidian shard get my points for the worst heal of the game. HEY, U KNOW WHAT IS USEFUL? A SINGLE TARGET BURST HEAL EVERY 5 SECONDS. Utterly useless

Obsidian shard, for when you want to heal one low health person by throwing a rock at an enemy. *** tier overcomplicated BoL. Make cauterize an stuck to caster AoE hot with a high heal pulse every 5 sec. (Same with inferno for damage)