90% of the Time it's Impenetrable or Impregnable or Don't Even Bother

GrumpyDuckling

Does anyone at ZOS ever question things like how absurd it is that everyone who isn't shield stacking pretty much has to run either Impenetrable or Impregnable in PVP? It's like ZOS intended to create very little diversity with armor traits. I just don't understand the logic of this design. Why is it a good idea to have crits hit so hard that it's necessary to use a single trait, 5 pc set, or shield stack?

dsalter

well seeing how easy it is to get such a high crit rating in pvp it's kind of needed.
if you wanna solve it just halve crit values in pvp

ezeepeezee

I've talked about this with my friends lately too. Frankly I don't think there should be such a thing as critical resistance, it makes no sense and like you said, pigeon holes everyone into running the same traits/setups.

Reducing the damage of crits in PVP, or, I don't know, reworking the entire idea of how crits work in PVP, would be pretty refreshing. It's not exactly enjoyable to be blown up instantly unless you're sporting nothing but impen.

Neloth

Tbh, even if I shield stack - at least 1.5k crit resist is necessary not to die instantly if shields are down

dsalter

its so easy to reach 40-50% crit rating without focusing on it since its pretty much half of all incoming damage will be critting because of this impen is pretty vital.

Betsararie

I prefer it it gives us one single trait to focus on, that consistently is BiS.

I have no desire to start to have to farm a bunch of different, random traits simply for the sake of 'diversity' (unimportant), while simultaneously having all of the hard work and gold I put in to amassing my collection be entirely put to waste.

That would be completely terrible.

Brrrofski

Neloth wrote: »

Tbh, even if I shield stack - at least 1.5k crit resist is necessary not to die instantly if shields are down

Yeh, I even use 7 impen on my magica NB even.

Rohamad_Ali

Brrrofski wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

Tbh, even if I shield stack - at least 1.5k crit resist is necessary not to die instantly if shields are down

Yeh, I even use 7 impen on my magica NB even.

How do you kill people running all impen on a dps class ?

Lord_Mirto

Solution to redundant trait.

To improve diversity in pvp and pve, remove the stacking bonus of traits. Having more then one piece of divines will not add the stat.

Boost the stat given by a single piece, but no more stacking.

This will promote Trait diversity and will even out prices / sought after traits.

Betsararie

Lord_Mirto wrote: »

Solution to redundant trait.

To improve diversity in pvp and pve, remove the stacking bonus of traits. Having more then one piece of divines will not add the stat.

Boost the stat given by a single piece, but no more stacking.

This will promote Trait diversity and will even out prices / sought after traits.

God that sounds bad. So this is the viewpoint of someone who thinks diversity of traits is actually important

Don't get me wrong, I completely respect your opinion, 100%.

It just interests me.

Lord_Mirto

Blanco wrote: »

Lord_Mirto wrote: »

Solution to redundant trait.

To improve diversity in pvp and pve, remove the stacking bonus of traits. Having more then one piece of divines will not add the stat.

Boost the stat given by a single piece, but no more stacking.

This will promote Trait diversity and will even out prices / sought after traits.

God that sounds bad. So this is the viewpoint of someone who thinks diversity of traits is actually important

Don't get me wrong, I completely respect your opinion, 100%.

It just interests me.

All traits would be more useful in say battle grounds ( no CP )
The other traits would aid a player with missing CP and make if not all trait, but most, viable.
In line with topic , this way is an idea to add diversity on traits used.

Waffennacht

My newest build runs neither impenetrable or impregnable, instead it runs sturdy

DHale

That's the way it should be, choose the correct tool for the task.

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

My newest build runs neither impenetrable or impregnable, instead it runs sturdy

I currently aim for 60% crit defense, then add sturdy+ CP. I also have 31-34k spell resistance, 24-26k physical resists in LA. Good bye shields lol.

scipionumatia

is this really gonna be the next thing people complain about? let me guess, proc set nerf and sharpened nerf reduced your kill ability and no way it could be your fault, the games not fair! man!
ok guyz heres what to do, lets reduce everyones max resists to 15k and get rid of impen as a trait! everyone should be squishy like me!
Marshmallow armor for everyone!

leepalmer95

It's pretty much needed. Not exactly a problem, i'm happy theres a pvp trait.

5 impen/ 2 something else is common, well fitted/ sturdy etc..

Besides you can choose not to run impen, it's your choice just don't complain if you get hit by big numbers.

You could run impreg and choose 7 others traits like i did on my stam nb

You could use transmutation like i did on my magplar which is basically 5 traits worth of crit resist and go lots of sturdy instead.

You could not use impen if you use shields a lot, or if your a nb who dodges and cloaks a lot. Gankers or bomb blades don't use impen either.

There are choices and consequences for everything.

Solariken

IMO Battle Spirit should include some base critical resistance (at least 1000).

olsborg

Solariken wrote: »

IMO Battle Spirit should include some base critical resistance (at least 1000).

Great suggestion, however, I would rather tie it in with the individual armor type or things could become rather OP (heavy armor for instance)

If you wear 5 pieces of light armor youd gain XX amount of critical resistance, same for medium just slightly lower number. Heavy armor is enough tanky already.

NightbladeMechanics

dsalter wrote: »

well seeing how easy it is to get such a high crit rating in pvp it's kind of needed.
if you wanna solve it just halve crit values in pvp

Reckless blanket change. We've had enough of those from ZOS.

Neloth wrote: »

Tbh, even if I shield stack - at least 1.5k crit resist is necessary not to die instantly if shields are down

The best sorc I know just started using crit resistance last week. He's not convinced, so neither am I.

Brrrofski wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

Tbh, even if I shield stack - at least 1.5k crit resist is necessary not to die instantly if shields are down

Yeh, I even use 7 impen on my magica NB even.

Mageblade has a much weaker shield stack, less mobility, and inferior anti-melee tools than sorc. All impen feels really nice on brawly heal over time builds, but it's far from necessary on evasive cloaky builds.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

Tbh, even if I shield stack - at least 1.5k crit resist is necessary not to die instantly if shields are down

Yeh, I even use 7 impen on my magica NB even.

How do you kill people running all impen on a dps class ?

You crit them harder -- i.e. build crit damage and a broad source of base damage to amplify.

Lord_Mirto wrote: »

Solution to redundant trait.

To improve diversity in pvp and pve, remove the stacking bonus of traits. Having more then one piece of divines will not add the stat.

Boost the stat given by a single piece, but no more stacking.

This will promote Trait diversity and will even out prices / sought after traits.

This would actually reduce trait diversity by making them all useless. People would wear one infused, one impen, one divines, one well fitted, one sturdy, reinforced on a heavy piece, then one nirn if you're using any crafted armor. The individual traits are so insignificant, though, that you could sub any of them out for prosperous/invigorating or training or outright traitless armor and feel a minimal difference in your play.

Waffennacht wrote: »

My newest build runs neither impenetrable or impregnable, instead it runs sturdy

Yup, sturdy is superior for block builds, and impreg isn't necessary for those either. Gotta keep that stam sustain up, though! Question: your sig says you play mag warden -- how's your stam sustain in a permablock build on that class? I haven't tried it yet.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

It's pretty much needed. Not exactly a problem, i'm happy theres a pvp trait.

5 impen/ 2 something else is common, well fitted/ sturdy etc..

Besides you can choose not to run impen, it's your choice just don't complain if you get hit by big numbers.

You could run impreg and choose 7 others traits like i did on my stam nb

You could use transmutation like i did on my magplar which is basically 5 traits worth of crit resist and go lots of sturdy instead.

You could not use impen if you use shields a lot, or if your a nb who dodges and cloaks a lot. Gankers or bomb blades don't use impen either.

There are choices and consequences for everything.

This man gets it, at least how the game currently works. Not to say that the game is currently perfectly balanced.

Solariken wrote: »

IMO Battle Spirit should include some base critical resistance (at least 1000).

A 15% reduction in overall crit damage for all players in other words. This is a gentle and thoughtful change, however players are still able to become VERY tanky right now.



In my opinion, impen isn't OP in its own right -- it's BiS because crit damage values can be built so high, due primarily to CP. Notice that you're not all talking about impen alone -- you're talking about impen, Trans, and Impreg together. The fact is if you don't run crit resistsance from some source or a sturdy permablock build in PvP, you run the risk of getting straight up one shot by crit damage builds. Don't make me pull out my Assassin's Will combat logs from the last few patches...

To put these stats in perspective, the player crit damage modifier can easily pass +100% in PvP builds, but you have to build 6800 crit resistance to fully mitigate that. A normal build with impen and optimized CP will see about 2500 crit resistance. It takes impen AND Trans AND Impreg TOGETHER to reach 6800 crit resistance, fully mitigating crit damage. Good luck killing anybody in that build. In other words, crits are designed to outpace crit damage and function as our primary kill condition, but in the current state of the game, crit damage scales so high that many classes and builds have to use impen to keep up.

Whether you think that is good or bad design is a matter of opinion. What is factual is that impen gives way more stat value than any other trait.

For comparison, divines is the highest damage trait for at least 4 pieces of armor. You can get about 140 stam or magicka, .5% crit chance, or .6% crit damage from one divines currently. One impen on the other hand reduces enemy crit damage attacking you by 3.8%. That's over a 6.3x more value from one impen versus one divines with Shadow mundus (a direct crit damage comparison).

Now, I don't really care too much if they rework armor traits -- they all have their place right now, and sturdy and well-fitted are seeing a lot of play in PvP even without Impreg in the builds -- but here's my recommendation if they do:

I'd recommend making building additional crit resistance less necessary for survival by capping the CP crit damage stars at 15% and introducing a base crit resistance for players, and then preventing TTK from rising in response by nerfing additional sources of crit resistance -- impen, Impreg, Resistant CP, and Trans. They could inflate the crit resistance modifier, or they could reduce the values you obtain from each source -- it doesn't matter. What matters is keeping combat feeling the same (i.e. TTK not rising) while freeing us up to use other traits, but at the same time preventing crit resistance-stacking builds from becoming stupidly hard to kill in the face of nerfs to crit damage.

idk

Inpen isn't required. Some tank build use sturdy, is expect. If running with a solid group inpen isn't less needed. I used to PvP in divines when I ran with a good PvP guild. Has no issues and since I healed it was even better.

Waffennacht

@NightbladeMechanics howdy! (Uh oh got Kena's eyes on me!). Thanks to: @paulsimonps @Draqone and @Lexxypwns I got all the maths figured out. Essentially the build can block 24 attacks in 6 secs before draining or 33 secs worth of 2 attacks per sec.

It's pretty well explained by them players and myself in my guide (nervous finger bitting)

NightbladeMechanics

Waffennacht wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics howdy! (Uh oh got Kena's eyes on me!). Thanks to: @paulsimonps @Draqone and @Lexxypwns I got all the maths figured out. Essentially the build can block 24 attacks in 6 secs before draining or 33 secs worth of 2 attacks per sec.

It's pretty well explained by them players and myself in my guide (nervous finger bitting)

You should expect to receive 4 attacks per second in heated fights, and 6 seconds isn't lasting very long under those conditions. Is your build designed for heavy tanking or just occasional blocking of burst damage?

And I asked about your sustain. I've heard magden's stam sustain is pretty weak, but I'm interested in a beefy tank sort of build. Once your stam is depleted, how easily do you get it back? Does that Green Balance passive work well, or do you have to heavy attack, or are you pretty boned if you run out of stam?

Waffennacht

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics howdy! (Uh oh got Kena's eyes on me!). Thanks to: @paulsimonps @Draqone and @Lexxypwns I got all the maths figured out. Essentially the build can block 24 attacks in 6 secs before draining or 33 secs worth of 2 attacks per sec.

It's pretty well explained by them players and myself in my guide (nervous finger bitting)

You should expect to receive 4 attacks per second in heated fights, and 6 seconds isn't lasting very long under those conditions. Is your build designed for heavy tanking or just occasional blocking of burst damage?

And I asked about your sustain. I've heard magden's stam sustain is pretty weak, but I'm interested in a beefy tank sort of build. Once your stam is depleted, how easily do you get it back? Does that Green Balance passive work well, or do you have to heavy attack, or are you pretty boned if you run out of stam?

It's Light Armor, block is for when you need to go defensive. It's really a mag build with the blocking added in. So typically it goes like: Ward up, burst etc, if things get too heated or Wards are going down too quickly - switch to SnB and "permablock" until resources are solid (6 secs would mean 6k mag back under the worst of conditions) then because of Decisive, Block, Animal Passive, and LA the ult just rolls in.

I then hit ult and go ham, if my opponent over extended they're pretty dead.

If you factor in a potential Bull Netch the build has 1150 Stam Regen, I don't completely drain the Stam, a hard CC after swapping to front bar can be dangerous so I always leave enough for a CC break.

Essentially it's a Light Armor Magden that when things get too heated or mag gets too low, you can block and recover.

Also, if the block idea isn't someone's cup of tea, I suggest changing alteration to something like Riposte and add impenetrable - not as cool but still super effective.

I haven't had any issues with resources, you just CANNOT let ward slip or block, not unless you want a 12k Incap to the face lol

Lexxypwns

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics howdy! (Uh oh got Kena's eyes on me!). Thanks to: @paulsimonps @Draqone and @Lexxypwns I got all the maths figured out. Essentially the build can block 24 attacks in 6 secs before draining or 33 secs worth of 2 attacks per sec.

It's pretty well explained by them players and myself in my guide (nervous finger bitting)

You should expect to receive 4 attacks per second in heated fights, and 6 seconds isn't lasting very long under those conditions. Is your build designed for heavy tanking or just occasional blocking of burst damage?

And I asked about your sustain. I've heard magden's stam sustain is pretty weak, but I'm interested in a beefy tank sort of build. Once your stam is depleted, how easily do you get it back? Does that Green Balance passive work well, or do you have to heavy attack, or are you pretty boned if you run out of stam?

Smart play is ravage mag/stam poisons on back bar with immovable pots OR Spell power pots and bull netch.

6 seconds is also an eternity when you have a burst healing ulti with a functional cost of 55. That's 1/3 of your maximum window of vulnerability between trees and it's done without compromising the ability to CC break, heal, or go offensive.

Waffennacht

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics howdy! (Uh oh got Kena's eyes on me!). Thanks to: @paulsimonps @Draqone and @Lexxypwns I got all the maths figured out. Essentially the build can block 24 attacks in 6 secs before draining or 33 secs worth of 2 attacks per sec.

It's pretty well explained by them players and myself in my guide (nervous finger bitting)

You should expect to receive 4 attacks per second in heated fights, and 6 seconds isn't lasting very long under those conditions. Is your build designed for heavy tanking or just occasional blocking of burst damage?

And I asked about your sustain. I've heard magden's stam sustain is pretty weak, but I'm interested in a beefy tank sort of build. Once your stam is depleted, how easily do you get it back? Does that Green Balance passive work well, or do you have to heavy attack, or are you pretty boned if you run out of stam?

Smart play is ravage mag/stam poisons on back bar with immovable pots OR Spell power pots and bull netch.

@Lexxypwns spell power pots? Bull gives both major brutality and Major Sorcerery

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics howdy! (Uh oh got Kena's eyes on me!). Thanks to: @paulsimonps @Draqone and @Lexxypwns I got all the maths figured out. Essentially the build can block 24 attacks in 6 secs before draining or 33 secs worth of 2 attacks per sec.

It's pretty well explained by them players and myself in my guide (nervous finger bitting)

You should expect to receive 4 attacks per second in heated fights, and 6 seconds isn't lasting very long under those conditions. Is your build designed for heavy tanking or just occasional blocking of burst damage?

And I asked about your sustain. I've heard magden's stam sustain is pretty weak, but I'm interested in a beefy tank sort of build. Once your stam is depleted, how easily do you get it back? Does that Green Balance passive work well, or do you have to heavy attack, or are you pretty boned if you run out of stam?

Smart play is ravage mag/stam poisons on back bar with immovable pots OR Spell power pots and bull netch.

@Lexxypwns spell power pots? Bull gives both major brutality and Major Sorcerery

One gives Stam + weapon DMG the other gives mag + SD.

Edit: bull gives both now according to uesp.net. esoWiki is wrong.

Waffennacht

Active

Warden
Animal Companions

Call a Bull Netch that restores Stamina over 25 seconds. Grants Major Brutality, increasing weapon damage by 20% over 27 seconds, and Major Sorcery, increasing Spell Damage by 20% over 27 seconds. This ability has no cost.

Morph Effect: Also Grants Major Brutality, increasing weapon damage by 20% over 27 seconds

Edit: ESO wiki has it wrong, bull provides both

Lexxypwns

Waffennacht wrote: »

Active

Warden
Animal Companions

Call a Bull Netch that restores Stamina over 25 seconds. Grants Major Brutality, increasing weapon damage by 20% over 27 seconds, and Major Sorcery, increasing Spell Damage by 20% over 27 seconds. This ability has no cost.

Morph Effect: Also Grants Major Brutality, increasing weapon damage by 20% over 27 seconds

Edit: ESO wiki has it wrong, bull provides both

Lol, that's what I get for trusting the interwebs

Waffennacht

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Active

Warden
Animal Companions

Call a Bull Netch that restores Stamina over 25 seconds. Grants Major Brutality, increasing weapon damage by 20% over 27 seconds, and Major Sorcery, increasing Spell Damage by 20% over 27 seconds. This ability has no cost.

Morph Effect: Also Grants Major Brutality, increasing weapon damage by 20% over 27 seconds

Edit: ESO wiki has it wrong, bull provides both

Lol, that's what I get for trusting the interwebs

See your idea is more brilliant than you even originally thought! . Seriously though when I get home, I'm testing bull and witchmother's it just makes soooo much sense

Waffennacht

@NightbladeMechanics Might I add, all of my numbers are lower than should be, my CP points are not allocated correctly. Also, math I have done are not incorporating all possible ideas for reduction. I just remembered lol

NightbladeMechanics

That all makes sense. I trust you're using a block cost reduction glyph or two? Those give insane value.

I really would like to make a stupidly impossible to kill permablock Warden guard tank. Lol that just seems so troll.