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[PC/NA Sotha Sil] This is getting out of hand...

  • Scyantific
    Scyantific
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    Rickter wrote: »
    There is already a thread detailing this entire issue:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/356649/sotha-sil-na-pc-thread-2/p1

    Please stay hydrated, the salt is real.

    With that being said - If you are DC, put your money where your mouth is and come to Shor. Legions of Mordor have already moved and Requiem moved back when Almalexia was still live.

    any DC that appreciates a fair and honest campaign - you'd have left Sotha a long time ago.

    and to be fair, EP is doing the same thing to DC on Shor. My guild mates logged in yesterday morning to an all red map. DC was pushed to our gate keeps last night by 10:30AM EDT and no doubt to their gates by this morning. I can get an update for you if youd like.

    DC was doubled teamed as well as Rayles and Warden and Glade resources were constantly flipped and as a consequence cut off by AD while DC struggled at Aleswell and Ash. DC is constantly forced to fight two fronts. but poor Sotha Sil, right?

    CN is retribution, Ive come to learn. You may weep tears on Sotha Sil, but those same individuals plunder another server.

    lol - guys i love to RP. im a closet RPer. in all seriousness though, despite the map being colored blue in the mornings, it is QUITE competitive around primetime from what I hear.

    at least there isnt any EMPEROR FLIPPING going on on Sotha Sil - its just the same guy getting emperor at 4AM. i respect that more than the AD that crown and emp, then switch over to their EP characters to crown an emp thats going on, in Shor.

    Can you not? This is not the "complain about the emp flipping on Shor" thread. That's why Machete put NA PC Sotha.

    Also, the only reason LoM even shows up to the CP campaigns (they showed up to run over Xarxes last week) is because they get their teeth kicked in by the likes of either DR or TM. Those guys, along with CN, absolutely hate competition, because it forces them to realize that there are players out there who are better than them.

    If you want to talk about the rampant emp-trading racket going on in Shor/Xarxes/Kastav, make a thread about it.
    Chill Bros Chat Lounge
    Darkest Requiem
  • Agrippa_Invisus
    Agrippa_Invisus
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    ✭✭✭
    Reverb wrote: »
    I am going to be the broken record to this, but the ultimate solution is dynamic population caps. Restrict the highest population to some percentage of the lowest (eg: 110%) and then you are going to see those giant stacks forced to split up to be able to play. This balances the factions amongst each other.

    If players all want to stack the same faction, they can wait their turn while others have no queue whatsoever.

    Players, over the years, have proven without a doubt that no amount of pleading will influence the player behavior. They'll take the cheap win every time. Sure some small groups will do the right thing, but overall human nature will win out and the path of least resistance will be taken.

    Force them to split to be able to play and you'll see new groups form in EP and AD of former DC, or you'll see fewer DC. Either way is a win for game balance. (and these faction names can and will rotate based off which faction it is -- Imagine EP's population tied to the Shor DC pop currently on NA PC).

    I've seen you say this before. While I agree in concept, the continual calculations for this would further overtax the servers. I think a compromise might be to have dynamic pop caps evaluated and applied at each scoring update, rather than continually. Maybe combine this measure with increasing the strength of keep walls and guard NPCs for the factions at a pop disadvantage, also evaluated and applied each score update.

    I'm disinclined to believe that this would tax the servers in any way. A simple population tabulation is not going to put any real stress on a server. It's the millions of calculations from damage, healing, movement, etc that stresses a server. A census is not hard to maintain for a modern server, nor stressful.
    Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
    DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Ebonheart
    Once a General, now a Citizen
    Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
    For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!
  • Humphie
    Humphie
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    Rickter wrote: »
    @Humphie

    I think i did discuss Sotha sil. and the hypocrisy of AD/EP ignoring each other, teaming up on DC and pushing them to their gates during primetime all while complaining that its happening to them at 4AM.

    why is there any denial of Team Orange? It does exist. there is the screen shot right there. you are so consumed by what one guild on DC is doing that youve become that which you hate.

    oh but keep dismissing me. thats what people do when they want an echo chamber. I'll stand for DC, because im the only one that will. sorry, but not sorry.

    you want a one sided [snip] talk fest - there is already a one sided Sotha Sil thread. this is a duplicate. im surprised it hasnt been closed down.

    XD
  • rimmidimdim
    rimmidimdim
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    Then Sotha Sil needs two camp rewards, one for daytime and one for low time. Two separate rewards for same camp. So my suggestion sounds simple, but with a few tweaks and thoughtful ideas it could work. Cheers.
  • PenguinInACan
    PenguinInACan
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    Rickter wrote: »
    @PenguinInACan

    I pvped on Azura's Star for 4 months, then Sotha Sil from its birth to when CN moved onto the server.

    I left because i saw the writing on the wall and did not want me or my guild associated with the night capping on Sotha. I went to a doomed Almalexia and made do with what I had, which is now Shor.

    I think i have the right to an opinion maybe even more than most because I took the high road during a bad situation. I am well aware that during prime time, Sotha Sil is not as the thread is titled: "getting out of hand..."

    Im saying: the people logging in at 10 am for whatever reason, youre pushed to your gates - so what? so is DC on Shor. you see me creating threads crying about it?

    What matters is during PRIMEtime. when the fighting is most competitive and most thick, how that map looks. and right now, you guys are double teaming a faction for their actions during a time that frankly, no one cares about. like talking about the map at 4AM or 10AM doesnt matter. what matters is whats happening when everyone can compete. and unfortunately, EP and AD look like the aggressors. You come on these forums to rally discontent and spread propaganda that DC is so evil, when the truth of the matter is: DC gets double teamed and pushed to the gates during primetime every night. and then EP goes and does it on other campaigns.

    You have some great points, however you said yourself, you left Sotha as a DC because DC was night capping. If 4AM and 10AM map flips weren't an issue, why did it cause you to stop playing on the server?

    And just because you don't create threads about Shor doesn't mean you don't plug in the emp farming and EP pop in every campaign thread that's posted around here.

    Also, the same people that cap the map at 4AM are online at 10PM. Those same people brag about "perma-emping" and "dominating" the server. So yeah, people do care about what the map looks like at 4AM, mostly your own faction. This would be a non-issue if it was just pugs taking things because they are in a later timezone. But we all know that isn't the case. It's guilds that want to "win" the campaign and the only way they can do that is by taking everything when everyone else is asleep and reap the uninterrupted 4-5 hours of scoring before they lose everything.

    Whatever discontent and "propaganda" you think is being spread around is warranted, considering you left the server because of how "evil" DC was becoming.
    Marek
  • Maikon
    Maikon
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    Rickter wrote: »
    @Humphie

    I think i did discuss Sotha sil. and the hypocrisy of AD/EP ignoring each other, teaming up on DC and pushing them to their gates during primetime all while complaining that its happening to them at 4AM.

    why is there any denial of Team Orange? It does exist. there is the screen shot right there. you are so consumed by what one guild on DC is doing that youve become that which you hate.

    oh but keep dismissing me. thats what people do when they want an echo chamber. I'll stand for DC, because im the only one that will. sorry, but not sorry.

    you want a one sided [snip] talk fest - there is already a one sided Sotha Sil thread. this is a duplicate. im surprised it hasnt been closed down.

    I don't know what high quality drugs you're on, but it's never team orange. EP is always trying to back door AD. The other day when DC had all of EP's tri-keeps, EP decides it's more beneficial to run all the *** way down to try and take AD tri-keeps. EP doesn't give a *** about anything but trolling AD. 99% of the time team purple.
    Edited by Maikon on August 1, 2017 5:30PM
  • Itsnotarealwar
    Itsnotarealwar
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    Maikon wrote: »
    Rickter wrote: »
    @Humphie

    I think i did discuss Sotha sil. and the hypocrisy of AD/EP ignoring each other, teaming up on DC and pushing them to their gates during primetime all while complaining that its happening to them at 4AM.

    why is there any denial of Team Orange? It does exist. there is the screen shot right there. you are so consumed by what one guild on DC is doing that youve become that which you hate.

    oh but keep dismissing me. thats what people do when they want an echo chamber. I'll stand for DC, because im the only one that will. sorry, but not sorry.

    you want a one sided [snip] talk fest - there is already a one sided Sotha Sil thread. this is a duplicate. im surprised it hasnt been closed down.

    I don't know what high quality drugs you're on, but it's never team orange. EP is always trying to back door AD. The other day when DC had all of EP's tri-keeps, EP decides it's more beneficial to run all the *** way down to try and take AD tri-keeps. EP doesn't give a *** about anything but trolling AD. 99% of the time team purple.

    This is what I have seen in my short time here. On a side note, why is everybody so mad all the time? Honestly reading the forum is almost as fun as playing the game.
  • Magus
    Magus
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    Maikon wrote: »
    Rickter wrote: »
    @Humphie

    I think i did discuss Sotha sil. and the hypocrisy of AD/EP ignoring each other, teaming up on DC and pushing them to their gates during primetime all while complaining that its happening to them at 4AM.

    why is there any denial of Team Orange? It does exist. there is the screen shot right there. you are so consumed by what one guild on DC is doing that youve become that which you hate.

    oh but keep dismissing me. thats what people do when they want an echo chamber. I'll stand for DC, because im the only one that will. sorry, but not sorry.

    you want a one sided [snip] talk fest - there is already a one sided Sotha Sil thread. this is a duplicate. im surprised it hasnt been closed down.

    I don't know what high quality drugs you're on, but it's never team orange. EP is always trying to back door AD. The other day when DC had all of EP's tri-keeps, EP decides it's more beneficial to run all the *** way down to try and take AD tri-keeps. EP doesn't give a *** about anything but trolling AD. 99% of the time team purple.

    This is what I have seen in my short time here. On a side note, why is everybody so mad all the time? Honestly reading the forum is almost as fun as playing the game.

    I'm mostly mad that I have to work for a living and I can't be online to destroy scrubknight's PvDoor morning caps.
    Duraeon / Maoh
    Former Emperor of Haderus, Trueflame, and Azura's Star
    PC/NA
  • Prince_of_all_Pugs
    Prince_of_all_Pugs
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    Machete wrote: »
    Screenshot_20170731_150235.png

    This is absurd. Every night at 4 AM EST this happens. Every. Night. With no repercussions what so ever to the players that do this. Specific DC guild come in here and paint the map blue. At first I thought, more AP. Just like everyone else who wanted to farm these groups. But it only got worse, having more numbers follow them in the early hours of the morning. It comes to a point where it's demoralizing, that no matter how much work AD and EP put in, the morning of it will be blue. EP has no oceanic presence that I'm aware of, and AD has DiE but they don't stay up as long. To which we are left with a map we have to clean up *Again*, the same emperor we have to depose yet *Again*, and countless days we have to face a DC faction stack almost always at Aleswell and Glademist. Not to mention the whole blob of DC crutches behind unreal amounts of siege because it's broken how strong it is in Sotha Sil. (Waiting for that nerf when spell crafting comes around, eh?) It's not fun anymore. DC is effectively killing the campaign, I don't even log into the campaign unless I know TM is running. And even then, I'm tired of getting zerged with 10 to 1 odds. Maybe this has been posted before in another part of the Sotha Sil forum, but that doesn't make the headlines like showing this does.

    Interesting insight, from a Complainer, a TM zerger and a traitor.
  • PenguinInACan
    PenguinInACan
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    Rickter wrote: »
    @PenguinInACan

    Yes i left Sotha because in the beginning, I did feel bad that opposing factions were being pushed to their gates every morning. I personally know what its like as a former Haderus player to start my day off at my gates and have to spend the first 30 minutes of my 3 hours of play time, taking back home keeps just so i can travel more quickly to actually pvp.

    that was my compassion. my empathy.

    But fast forward 4 months later, AND witnessing the one sided echo chamber that is Sotha Sil NA PC Thread I started to open my eyes a little. I started to realize that because of this collective disgust/hate/dislike of ONE DC guild EP and AD were banding together to punish the faction as a whole during prime time hours. My realization turned to distaste when i traveled to a distant battlefield only to find the same complaining factions doing the same to DC as you were complaining of DC doing to you.

    There are DC that enjoy noCP pvp that arent in agreeance with CN's tactics. Do they deserve to be farmed to their gates? What example do you want to set on etiquette of war? doing a [snip] poor job if i do say so myself.

    Would I come back to Sotha? sure! but at this point, ive invested 4 weeks into Shor. Ive invested my guild and we dont have this drama. I work with DC, they work with me. we have a good harmony. Yes, EP does push DC to the gates for whatever reason, but I dont complain. I solo siege until more of my guildies log on and when they do i tell em: "alright folks, grab some siege, its gonna be a long night". and we get to work. We dont cry about it.

    @Drakkdjinn

    Oh im following along "m8". Im following along quite attentively. When one faction, pushes another faction all the way to their gates to prove a point, while the third faction sits by, untouched and unhindering - thats a team up.

    AD pushed DC all the way up to the gates while EP was left to a full half of the map. they didnt even try to back door you what are you talking about? EP sat by sneering as "DC got what they deserved".

    Nobody deserves to be farmed at their gates. I too have played on multiple single faction campaigns. Chillrend being one of the worst of them. You know how we fixed that? Forum posts and consistent illumination as to what was going on.

    I personally don't have any issues logging in to an entire blue map. Attacking is a lot of fun and takes a lot more group movement skill than defending IMO. However, when people try and call hypocrisy at a single, low-context image of a map, and defend players that openly admit to taking the map early due to its ease and not caring about actual PvP because they are in it to win, I too will call out whatever I think is BS...

    EP pushes AD every night btw, even in the image Kart posted there are swords at Sej and Alessia has EP resources. I can't tell you how many times we are pushing Roe and Nikel with DC owning Ales throught Chal only to see EP push Fare or BM. It's 3 faction PvP....somebody is going to get double teamed at some point.
    Edited by PenguinInACan on August 1, 2017 6:07PM
    Marek
  • Maikon
    Maikon
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    Rickter wrote: »
    Im not defending anyone! lol. I think you need to read between the lines. I think you need to admit that DC gets farmed to their gates quite often on Sotha Sil due to the animosity you let yourselves be consumed by.

    it is hypocrisy. when you condemn CN for pushing your gates, then you go and do it yourselves that is the definition of hypocrisy.

    it would be better for you to put your money where your mouth is. you think that screenshot was a one off thing presented by TM? please.

    This thread SHOULD have started like:

    "This is getting out of hand - we as AD and EP need to set the example and make the statement that if we dont want to be farmed to our gates, we wont do it to DC. Even if they dont listen, we can still hold our heads high because we did the right thing."

    But at this point - youre all guilty.

    Yea, we push you to your gates, to take your scrolls and leave. DC on the other hand, pushes us to our gates, then gate/base farms with full groups, big *** difference.
    Edited by Maikon on August 1, 2017 6:21PM
  • Kartalin
    Kartalin
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    So you're saying we shouldn't go after scrolls? I left soon after that screenshot so I'm not sure how hard the gate keeps were defended, we had just barely got them.
    Karllotta, AD Magplar, AR 50
    Kartalin, AD Stamblade, AR 35
    Kharllotta, AD Stamden, AR 27
    Kharinnia, AD MagDK, AR 23
    Tertiary Meat - Warbunnies of Doom - NA/PC - @ Larinon - Youtube
  • PenguinInACan
    PenguinInACan
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    Rickter wrote: »
    at this point you are all projecting. probably because im the only DC on these threads with the _balls to stand up for the truth.

    but the fact of the matter is: Im on Shor. and i was on Almalexia before that. whatever me and my guild do, doesnt affect you at all.

    its ok, i'll let you AD and EP huddle around your campfire telling tales of the evil CN and DC on Sotha, because lets be honest, you never wanted to hear a difference of opinion in the first place, right?

    i've made my point and said all i need to say. You want change? it starts with you. man up, and set the example.

    Hey now, I come to the forums for debate. You don't get these kinds of conversations in tells. You have your opinion and should voice it. I don't agree with it and am voicing that.

    DC is in the lead though. DC gets pushed harder in prime time because of it. Completely disregarding the night caps and guilds that should be enough of whatever justification needed for DC's stuff to get taken.

    If we didn't have salt between guilds this wouldn't be AvA
    Edited by PenguinInACan on August 1, 2017 6:30PM
    Marek
  • Humphie
    Humphie
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    Rickter wrote: »
    at this point you are all projecting. probably because im the only DC on these threads with the _balls to stand up for the truth.

    but the fact of the matter is: Im on Shor. and i was on Almalexia before that. whatever me and my guild do, doesnt affect you at all.

    its ok, i'll let you AD and EP huddle around your campfire telling tales of the evil CN and DC on Sotha, because lets be honest, you never wanted to hear a difference of opinion in the first place, right?

    i've made my point and said all i need to say. You want change? it starts with you. man up, and set the example.

    So you done now? Cool
  • Darlgon
    Darlgon
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    Rickter wrote: »
    @Humphie

    I think i did discuss Sotha sil. and the hypocrisy of AD/EP ignoring each other, teaming up on DC and pushing them to their gates during primetime all while complaining that its happening to them at 4AM.

    why is there any denial of Team Orange? It does exist. there is the screen shot right there. you are so consumed by what one guild on DC is doing that youve become that which you hate.

    oh but keep dismissing me. thats what people do when they want an echo chamber. I'll stand for DC, because im the only one that will. sorry, but not sorry.

    you want a one sided [snip] talk fest - there is already a one sided Sotha Sil thread. this is a duplicate. im surprised it hasnt been closed down.

    Not team orange... Just two factions tired of starting every day at their gates with one faction (blue) continually wiping the map when NA players are sleeping and cant be fixed until NA prime. If I believed it was an Aussie guild, I would defend it. But its NA players playing in the middle of the night.
    Power level to CP160 in a week:
    Where is the end game? You just played it.
    Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
    Where is new content? Sigh.
  • Darlgon
    Darlgon
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    Maikon wrote: »
    Rickter wrote: »
    @Humphie

    I think i did discuss Sotha sil. and the hypocrisy of AD/EP ignoring each other, teaming up on DC and pushing them to their gates during primetime all while complaining that its happening to them at 4AM.

    why is there any denial of Team Orange? It does exist. there is the screen shot right there. you are so consumed by what one guild on DC is doing that youve become that which you hate.

    oh but keep dismissing me. thats what people do when they want an echo chamber. I'll stand for DC, because im the only one that will. sorry, but not sorry.

    you want a one sided [snip] talk fest - there is already a one sided Sotha Sil thread. this is a duplicate. im surprised it hasnt been closed down.

    I don't know what high quality drugs you're on, but it's never team orange. EP is always trying to back door AD. The other day when DC had all of EP's tri-keeps, EP decides it's more beneficial to run all the *** way down to try and take AD tri-keeps. EP doesn't give a *** about anything but trolling AD. 99% of the time team purple.

    You should have heard me raging at those EP fools for taking Alessia whle Chal, BRK and Arrius fell. Which is probably why they ignored me. Kept saying something about "it was 31/31".

    BTW, I think defenders who get wiped should get some AP for failed defense, no matter where they are in zone to encourage defending against all odds, instead of churning keeps.
    Edited by Darlgon on August 1, 2017 6:45PM
    Power level to CP160 in a week:
    Where is the end game? You just played it.
    Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
    Where is new content? Sigh.
  • Kartalin
    Kartalin
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    Darlgon wrote: »
    BTW, I think defenders who get wiped should get some AP for failed defense, no matter where they are in zone to encourage defending against all odds, instead of churning keeps.
    It's true that the AP rewards encourage offense over defense, especially during the double AP event. The exception being those fantastic, drawn out defenses where you can actually earn more AP.
    Karllotta, AD Magplar, AR 50
    Kartalin, AD Stamblade, AR 35
    Kharllotta, AD Stamden, AR 27
    Kharinnia, AD MagDK, AR 23
    Tertiary Meat - Warbunnies of Doom - NA/PC - @ Larinon - Youtube
  • Scyantific
    Scyantific
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    Maikon wrote: »
    Rickter wrote: »
    @Humphie

    I think i did discuss Sotha sil. and the hypocrisy of AD/EP ignoring each other, teaming up on DC and pushing them to their gates during primetime all while complaining that its happening to them at 4AM.

    why is there any denial of Team Orange? It does exist. there is the screen shot right there. you are so consumed by what one guild on DC is doing that youve become that which you hate.

    oh but keep dismissing me. thats what people do when they want an echo chamber. I'll stand for DC, because im the only one that will. sorry, but not sorry.

    you want a one sided [snip] talk fest - there is already a one sided Sotha Sil thread. this is a duplicate. im surprised it hasnt been closed down.

    I don't know what high quality drugs you're on, but it's never team orange. EP is always trying to back door AD. The other day when DC had all of EP's tri-keeps, EP decides it's more beneficial to run all the *** way down to try and take AD tri-keeps. EP doesn't give a *** about anything but trolling AD. 99% of the time team purple.

    Gonna need proof of this, that there is an active conspiracy to "undermine" AD that doesn't involve the potato portion of the EP faction. Everyone knows that the potatoes on EP (which is like 90% of the faction) will roll downhill to Alessia the moment that Sejanus turns red, so don't even start with this.
    Machete wrote: »
    Screenshot_20170731_150235.png

    This is absurd. Every night at 4 AM EST this happens. Every. Night. With no repercussions what so ever to the players that do this. Specific DC guild come in here and paint the map blue. At first I thought, more AP. Just like everyone else who wanted to farm these groups. But it only got worse, having more numbers follow them in the early hours of the morning. It comes to a point where it's demoralizing, that no matter how much work AD and EP put in, the morning of it will be blue. EP has no oceanic presence that I'm aware of, and AD has DiE but they don't stay up as long. To which we are left with a map we have to clean up *Again*, the same emperor we have to depose yet *Again*, and countless days we have to face a DC faction stack almost always at Aleswell and Glademist. Not to mention the whole blob of DC crutches behind unreal amounts of siege because it's broken how strong it is in Sotha Sil. (Waiting for that nerf when spell crafting comes around, eh?) It's not fun anymore. DC is effectively killing the campaign, I don't even log into the campaign unless I know TM is running. And even then, I'm tired of getting zerged with 10 to 1 odds. Maybe this has been posted before in another part of the Sotha Sil forum, but that doesn't make the headlines like showing this does.

    Interesting insight, from a Complainer, a TM zerger and a traitor.

    Dude, can you not? Machete is making the same valid points that we have been making in the Sotha/Azura's thread for months now, don't go off antagonizing him for moving over to the faction that sorely needed help before the TD/IOTE reroll.
    Rickter wrote: »
    at this point you are all projecting. probably because im the only DC on these threads with the _balls to stand up for the truth.

    but the fact of the matter is: Im on Shor. and i was on Almalexia before that. whatever me and my guild do, doesnt affect you at all.

    its ok, i'll let you AD and EP huddle around your campfire telling tales of the evil CN and DC on Sotha, because lets be honest, you never wanted to hear a difference of opinion in the first place, right?

    i've made my point and said all i need to say. You want change? it starts with you. man up, and set the example.

    ^^^ Bolded for emphasis ^^^

    Why are you here then? Why are you barging into the Sotha Sil threads to complain about DC getting their teeth kicked in on other campaigns that aren't Sotha??? You did this in the Sotha thread, you did this in the Azura's threads, why do you keep doing this when you've said it yourself that whatever you do on your campaign doesn't affect us, and vice-versa? Is it because no one is paying attention to your own threads asking for more DC to flood into Shor to "stop the gatecamping?" Or is it because you feel left out of the salt manufacturing that Vivec and Sotha Sil participate in on a daily basis?
    Chill Bros Chat Lounge
    Darkest Requiem
  • Kartalin
    Kartalin
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    @Prince_of_all_Pugs I was under the impression you left TM because you didn't think we had a large enough zerg to run with. I was only in the guild for a brief time before you left but I remember we had good times

    We hit 24 once in the past year plus, and that was a brief period during the double AP event. Lately our group size falls between 12 and 18, sometimes smaller. We don't stack with our pugs except in dethrone situations. Why do you insist on spreading misinformation about TM?
    Karllotta, AD Magplar, AR 50
    Kartalin, AD Stamblade, AR 35
    Kharllotta, AD Stamden, AR 27
    Kharinnia, AD MagDK, AR 23
    Tertiary Meat - Warbunnies of Doom - NA/PC - @ Larinon - Youtube
  • PenguinInACan
    PenguinInACan
    ✭✭✭✭
    this post is complete comedy, that TM of all people is complaining about CN , when TM tries to do the same exact thing CN does ( zerg surf with a 24 man grp inside a zerg.) i think TM is just mad that CN is better than they are.

    Wait, i thought it was DR who we were mad at and that was better than us. Or is there a new wagon out now that can hold the weight of all the saliva covered feet?
    Marek
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