Widowmaker & Vicious death in 3.1.x

BohnT

Vicious death has only a 4m range, that's very, very close.
Killing an opponent to proc it is no way comparable to proccing poison or a simple meele attack, only 2 things can actually make use of the set and that are bomber and destro zergs, both can be countered when you don't stack.
Giving VD a 1 sec delay would make it completely useless as it doesn't proc instantly when you start the fight, first someone has to die and this takes almost always 1-2sec enough time to spread out.

rfennell_ESO

Scyantific wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

In the newest patch we have some changes coming into proc sets, one directly affecting the widowmaker set but not affecting vicious death at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Item Sets
Developer Comments – “Proc Set” changes and Monster Mask balance:

Item Sets have received two major rebalancing efforts this update with a focus on introducing more counterplay to certain Item Set procs and improving diversity in Monster Mask choices.

To introduce more counterplay to certain Item Set procs, we’ve changed the method in which they deal damage. While we are happy with the current damage values of these Item Sets, having them deliver that damage in unavoidable bursts has led to an unsatisfying PvP experience. The procs of these Item Sets now have unique mechanics to delay their damage, along with accompanying visual effects to allow more time to react to them.

...

[*]Widowmaker: This Item Set’s proc now drops a spore on the ground in front of you that explodes after 1 second instead of instantly dealing unavoidable damage.

I get that vicious death is counter play to large balled up zergs, but by the definition here, it's an instant proc that you have no counter play for, only preventive. Looking at widowmaker, the solution seems simple, make any bodies that due spawn bombs after they die, with a 1 second fuse. This will give feedback to the users and give a small chance to counter.

Widowmaker, I'd also argue, should be changed to have its disease spore spawn on the target, rather than the player. They will still have a chance to get away but this gives better build choices for ranged stamina.

Thanks for your time.

Agree with Vicious death... it offers no counter play at all.

They are probably changing widow maker because certain players have been exploiting it with bar swaps to proc at range for a long time. It's a melee set, but it can be made to proc at range and that's broken...

Wrong. Vicious Death requires you to kill a person, Widowmaker is free instant damage with a poison proc.

The problem brought up is you have absolutely no warning of vicious death.

That's exactly what ZOS has been addressing, things that offer little to no counterplay.

If it was made to be a corpse explosion after 1 second, there is some counterplay. If you are all stacked in a ball or on a pin, people are still going to be hit by it.

Also... not mentioned here is the fact that siege procs vicious death. That's either intended or unintended, I'd lean toward unintended.

Feanor

I do agree on the siege part. Siege kills should not proc VD. Other than that VD is not OP.

GreenSoup2HoT

BohnT wrote: »

Vicious death has only a 4m range, that's very, very close.
Killing an opponent to proc it is no way comparable to proccing poison or a simple meele attack, only 2 things can actually make use of the set and that are bomber and destro zergs, both can be countered when you don't stack.
Giving VD a 1 sec delay would make it completely useless as it doesn't proc instantly when you start the fight, first someone has to die and this takes almost always 1-2sec enough time to spread out.

its not 4m off caster though. consider the radius of destro ulty. you can be hit from 4m outside of the destro ulty from vd

the whole dont stack argument is pretty stupid considering how much ground you can cover with destro ulty. with proxi soul tether sure.. stacking on a small radius makes sense.. dont stack but destro.. k.

rfennell_ESO

Feanor wrote: »

I do agree on the siege part. Siege kills should not proc VD. Other than that VD is not OP.

As a vampire I learned a long time ago to avoid "friendlies" and I never to rarely stack. I like to think I'm pretty good at it and it's something that's always on my mind.

Even so, I get hit by random vicious deaths anyways. Often, there isn't anyone near me at all.

That's the issue I see with it... that even if you are going out of your way to account for it, your efforts are for nil.

Chantclaire

Great idea. I do think there needs to be counterplay to vicious death.

supaskrub

Seriously now, it does'nt need changing, 9/10 times a destro bombers attempts end in failure, granted the 1/10 times it works can be devestating but in the main a solid group with communication can shut down the problem before it even starts or minimise the outcome, mage light, detect pots, communication and situational awareness are all that is needed and if a bomblade does gets lucky then kudos to them and pity on the group that let their guard down to allow it to happen.

WhiteMage

I get what some of you are trying to argue here, that VD is OP and because all the precious stamina procs are getting nerfed, so must VD, which, on top of being a magicka proc, it the strongest proc in the game. It is the strongest proc in the game, but it also has the most difficult of all conditions to achieve of any proc. That alone merits it to be the strongest proc, but also, by its very nature it can't help you win a fight. To proc VD, you must land a killing blow on a target, wearing a 5pc that will not help you to achieve that kill. It won't proc off pets nor NPCs, and once it does go off there is a very small range that it affects. Basically, it kills people who have no sense of personal space, which would be amassed pugs. It takes two mistakes to be killed by VD: first, for you to be breathing down the neck of that 15k health nightblade, and then for that nightblade to go and get himself killed. That is an absurdly difficult proc condition compared to velidreth, that goes off 1 in every five times you deal damage, or widowmaker, which can be guaranteed a proc at your leisure once every ten seconds. After next patch, simply put, the counter to procs will be situational awareness. VD doesn't need a delay because you already have a floating indicator on that potato right next to you as his health drops to zero. If you're paying attention, you already won't get hit. No need for extra hand-holding.

IxSTALKERxI

Vicious Death in it's current state dumbs down large scale pvp fights. It's a pug killer, nothing more. It discourages experienced players working with and helping newer players also.

Step 1: Remove vicious death 5 piece - rework it completely - get rid of that damage proc.
Step 2: Remove damage AoE caps completely. This will compensate for the lack of VD.

Vicious death was some bandaid fix when the real solution was to simply to remove the damage aoe caps. This will also make stamina more balanced with magicka in AoE fights.

Edit:
An idea for a different 5 piece could be something like: If player dies to someone wearing vicious death, their body glows red for 30 seconds and anyone who attempts to rez this player will be charged 50% of their stamina pool.

^doesn't have to be this exactly but like there are so many cool ideas you could implement for this sets 5 piece that isn't 22k aoe explosions.

Some_Guy

Don't stack so tight and pay attention to you surroundings. VD bombers are pretty obvious to anyone who PvPs and healing/shielding through a VD bomber who can't proc VD because people won't stack tight enough is easy. Then they have little survivability alone. You don't even need to see their sets, they all do the same crap. Proxy, Destro ult, run/jump in and spam some AoE/CC. Nobody does that on a nonbomb build...
The only thing that needs fixing is siege proccing it. Should only proc from your abilities.
I say this as someone who spent the last 2 weeks raking AP into a large sack from VD bombing people.
Those who wouldn't stack made me look like a scrub when I couldn't proc the VD to cause the chain reaction.