Widowmaker & Vicious death in 3.1.x

HeroOfNone

In the newest patch we have some changes coming into proc sets, one directly affecting the widowmaker set but not affecting vicious death at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Item Sets
Developer Comments – “Proc Set” changes and Monster Mask balance:

Item Sets have received two major rebalancing efforts this update with a focus on introducing more counterplay to certain Item Set procs and improving diversity in Monster Mask choices.

To introduce more counterplay to certain Item Set procs, we’ve changed the method in which they deal damage. While we are happy with the current damage values of these Item Sets, having them deliver that damage in unavoidable bursts has led to an unsatisfying PvP experience. The procs of these Item Sets now have unique mechanics to delay their damage, along with accompanying visual effects to allow more time to react to them.

...

[*]Widowmaker: This Item Set’s proc now drops a spore on the ground in front of you that explodes after 1 second instead of instantly dealing unavoidable damage.

I get that vicious death is counter play to large balled up zergs, but by the definition here, it's an instant proc that you have no counter play for, only preventive. Looking at widowmaker, the solution seems simple, make any bodies that due spawn bombs after they die, with a 1 second fuse. This will give feedback to the users and give a small chance to counter.

Widowmaker, I'd also argue, should be changed to have its disease spore spawn on the target, rather than the player. They will still have a chance to get away but this gives better build choices for ranged stamina.

Thanks for your time.

DeadlyRecluse

Idea makes sense. Would hurt bombers a lot, but it makes sense in terms of the direction they are taking proc sets.

HeroOfNone

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Idea makes sense. Would hurt bombers a lot, but it makes sense in terms of the direction they are taking proc sets.

At the very least it makes it consistent.

I think it does hurt the glass canon bomb build, but could potentially lead to kills beyond the damage cap, due to the delayed nature of a corpse bomb. Would need to take a tank in to gaurd and root for more efficient kills.

rfennell_ESO

HeroOfNone wrote: »

In the newest patch we have some changes coming into proc sets, one directly affecting the widowmaker set but not affecting vicious death at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Item Sets
Developer Comments – “Proc Set” changes and Monster Mask balance:

Item Sets have received two major rebalancing efforts this update with a focus on introducing more counterplay to certain Item Set procs and improving diversity in Monster Mask choices.

To introduce more counterplay to certain Item Set procs, we’ve changed the method in which they deal damage. While we are happy with the current damage values of these Item Sets, having them deliver that damage in unavoidable bursts has led to an unsatisfying PvP experience. The procs of these Item Sets now have unique mechanics to delay their damage, along with accompanying visual effects to allow more time to react to them.

...

[*]Widowmaker: This Item Set’s proc now drops a spore on the ground in front of you that explodes after 1 second instead of instantly dealing unavoidable damage.

I get that vicious death is counter play to large balled up zergs, but by the definition here, it's an instant proc that you have no counter play for, only preventive. Looking at widowmaker, the solution seems simple, make any bodies that due spawn bombs after they die, with a 1 second fuse. This will give feedback to the users and give a small chance to counter.

Widowmaker, I'd also argue, should be changed to have its disease spore spawn on the target, rather than the player. They will still have a chance to get away but this gives better build choices for ranged stamina.

Thanks for your time.

Agree with Vicious death... it offers no counter play at all.

They are probably changing widow maker because certain players have been exploiting it with bar swaps to proc at range for a long time. It's a melee set, but it can be made to proc at range and that's broken...

HeroOfNone

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

In the newest patch we have some changes coming into proc sets, one directly affecting the widowmaker set but not affecting vicious death at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Item Sets
Developer Comments – “Proc Set” changes and Monster Mask balance:

Item Sets have received two major rebalancing efforts this update with a focus on introducing more counterplay to certain Item Set procs and improving diversity in Monster Mask choices.

To introduce more counterplay to certain Item Set procs, we’ve changed the method in which they deal damage. While we are happy with the current damage values of these Item Sets, having them deliver that damage in unavoidable bursts has led to an unsatisfying PvP experience. The procs of these Item Sets now have unique mechanics to delay their damage, along with accompanying visual effects to allow more time to react to them.

...

[*]Widowmaker: This Item Set’s proc now drops a spore on the ground in front of you that explodes after 1 second instead of instantly dealing unavoidable damage.

I get that vicious death is counter play to large balled up zergs, but by the definition here, it's an instant proc that you have no counter play for, only preventive. Looking at widowmaker, the solution seems simple, make any bodies that due spawn bombs after they die, with a 1 second fuse. This will give feedback to the users and give a small chance to counter.

Widowmaker, I'd also argue, should be changed to have its disease spore spawn on the target, rather than the player. They will still have a chance to get away but this gives better build choices for ranged stamina.

Thanks for your time.

Agree with Vicious death... it offers no counter play at all.

They are probably changing widow maker because certain players have been exploiting it with bar swaps to proc at range for a long time. It's a melee set, but it can be made to proc at range and that's broken...

It's a stamina set that procs off poison procs, those have a 10 second cooldown as well. Since poisons can proc on targets at range it makes more sense that the widowmaker proc follow the poison. If it were say viper, which only procs on melee attacks, this wouldn't matter as much.

Solariken

Nice suggestion OP! Love it love it love it

rfennell_ESO

HeroOfNone wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

In the newest patch we have some changes coming into proc sets, one directly affecting the widowmaker set but not affecting vicious death at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Item Sets
Developer Comments – “Proc Set” changes and Monster Mask balance:

Item Sets have received two major rebalancing efforts this update with a focus on introducing more counterplay to certain Item Set procs and improving diversity in Monster Mask choices.

To introduce more counterplay to certain Item Set procs, we’ve changed the method in which they deal damage. While we are happy with the current damage values of these Item Sets, having them deliver that damage in unavoidable bursts has led to an unsatisfying PvP experience. The procs of these Item Sets now have unique mechanics to delay their damage, along with accompanying visual effects to allow more time to react to them.

...

[*]Widowmaker: This Item Set’s proc now drops a spore on the ground in front of you that explodes after 1 second instead of instantly dealing unavoidable damage.

I get that vicious death is counter play to large balled up zergs, but by the definition here, it's an instant proc that you have no counter play for, only preventive. Looking at widowmaker, the solution seems simple, make any bodies that due spawn bombs after they die, with a 1 second fuse. This will give feedback to the users and give a small chance to counter.

Widowmaker, I'd also argue, should be changed to have its disease spore spawn on the target, rather than the player. They will still have a chance to get away but this gives better build choices for ranged stamina.

Thanks for your time.

Agree with Vicious death... it offers no counter play at all.

They are probably changing widow maker because certain players have been exploiting it with bar swaps to proc at range for a long time. It's a melee set, but it can be made to proc at range and that's broken...

It's a stamina set that procs off poison procs, those have a 10 second cooldown as well. Since poisons can proc on targets at range it makes more sense that the widowmaker proc follow the poison. If it were say viper, which only procs on melee attacks, this wouldn't matter as much.

The tooltip clearly states it has 5m range. "to all enemies within 5 meters of you." If you pay attention, you will see people proccing it at range constantly.

All I'm saying is that the change to widowmaker is probably because they can't fix the bar swap exploit (trust me they haven't done anything about those abusing it).

Feanor

I always thought the counter to vicious death was not stacking so close...

supaskrub

Feanor wrote: »

I always thought the counter to vicious death was not stacking so close...

No, there is no such thing as a counter apparently, the only reply you will get to a common sense reply like yours is that it still needs nerfing so that it is idiot proof..

DHale

This is not accurate. VD has the best counterplay available. Spread out and don't stand next to squishes. Someone has to stand very very close to you in order to proc. A bomber hid in Blood Mayne NA PC after it was retaken. I told my guildies nine of us to watch out for him as he has done this before. Several minutes later he bombed the transitus killing 20 plus players. He killed zero of my group and we got a 5 k D tic for our own AD deaths. I say to that EP bomber....bomb away.

Subversus

Are you guys serious right now? Vicious death offers no counterplay? WHAT ABOUT NOT STACKING IN A BLOB

Leave vicious death as it is, it is by far one of the most balanced sets in this game. It doesn't even do that much damage on its own, only if morons stack together by the dozens...

Zer0oo

Vicious death was the lazy band-aid-fix for zergs and as usual it is now the favorite toy of zergs just like proxi detonation.( And maybe bomb blades who are trying to kill pug groups when they don't pay attention)

In my opinion they just should rework the set or just remove it same for goes proxi since it they are way more powerful in a zerg.

Sigtric

VD is easy to counter. Don't be a noob and profit.

Feanor

It's always so hilarious when a good NB bomber pulls the Soul Tether bomb off on a resource. I've made it a habit to stand away from the closely packed blobs on the flag. Most of them even mount up and wait right next to each other. Priceless.

HeroOfNone

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

In the newest patch we have some changes coming into proc sets, one directly affecting the widowmaker set but not affecting vicious death at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Item Sets
Developer Comments – “Proc Set” changes and Monster Mask balance:

Item Sets have received two major rebalancing efforts this update with a focus on introducing more counterplay to certain Item Set procs and improving diversity in Monster Mask choices.

To introduce more counterplay to certain Item Set procs, we’ve changed the method in which they deal damage. While we are happy with the current damage values of these Item Sets, having them deliver that damage in unavoidable bursts has led to an unsatisfying PvP experience. The procs of these Item Sets now have unique mechanics to delay their damage, along with accompanying visual effects to allow more time to react to them.

...

[*]Widowmaker: This Item Set’s proc now drops a spore on the ground in front of you that explodes after 1 second instead of instantly dealing unavoidable damage.

I get that vicious death is counter play to large balled up zergs, but by the definition here, it's an instant proc that you have no counter play for, only preventive. Looking at widowmaker, the solution seems simple, make any bodies that due spawn bombs after they die, with a 1 second fuse. This will give feedback to the users and give a small chance to counter.

Widowmaker, I'd also argue, should be changed to have its disease spore spawn on the target, rather than the player. They will still have a chance to get away but this gives better build choices for ranged stamina.

Thanks for your time.

Agree with Vicious death... it offers no counter play at all.

They are probably changing widow maker because certain players have been exploiting it with bar swaps to proc at range for a long time. It's a melee set, but it can be made to proc at range and that's broken...

It's a stamina set that procs off poison procs, those have a 10 second cooldown as well. Since poisons can proc on targets at range it makes more sense that the widowmaker proc follow the poison. If it were say viper, which only procs on melee attacks, this wouldn't matter as much.

The tooltip clearly states it has 5m range. "to all enemies within 5 meters of you." If you pay attention, you will see people proccing it at range constantly.

All I'm saying is that the change to widowmaker is probably because they can't fix the bar swap exploit (trust me they haven't done anything about those abusing it).

It still procs of a ranged attack though, so it's not a melee set, it just has its da mage range gimped. Reverting it back to its on target days with the spore however would give counter play and more utility. The bar swap bug should be fixed, I agree with you there.

Feanor wrote: »

I always thought the counter to vicious death was not stacking so close...

DHale wrote: »

This is not accurate. VD has the best counterplay available. Spread out and don't stand next to squishes. Someone has to stand very very close to you in order to proc. A bomber hid in Blood Mayne NA PC after it was retaken. I told my guildies nine of us to watch out for him as he has done this before. Several minutes later he bombed the transitus killing 20 plus players. He killed zero of my group and we got a 5 k D tic for our own AD deaths. I say to that EP bomber....bomb away.

On both your cases, you're talking prevention not countering

coun·ter2
ˈkoun(t)ər/Submit
verb
respond to hostile speech or action.
give a return blow while parrying.

As I mentioned in the original post. If the devs are looking for consistency in giving counters and not just instant damage from sets, this would have a delay as suggested. You'd still get a lot of AFK kills on flags.

Subversus

@HeroOfNone you don't seem to get it. This set is USELESS if you don't stack. Everyone that dies to vicious death needs to take a big look at how they play the game.

GreenSoup2HoT

Yes please. Gives us time to block also.

HeroOfNone

Zer0oo wrote: »

Vicious death was the lazy band-aid-fix for zergs and as usual it is now the favorite toy of zergs just like proxi detonation.( And maybe bomb blades who are trying to kill pug groups when they don't pay attention)

In my opinion they just should rework the set or just remove it same for goes proxi since it they are way more powerful in a zerg.

It sadly was, and they need to revisit mechanics on dealing with zergs so there are persistent reasons not to ball up in large groups aside from a single build. Perferably to me there would be a debuff on any group over 12 in a limited area that would stack on damage multipliers or reduce healing... but that's another thread.

GreenSoup2HoT

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Vicious death was the lazy band-aid-fix for zergs and as usual it is now the favorite toy of zergs just like proxi detonation.( And maybe bomb blades who are trying to kill pug groups when they don't pay attention)

In my opinion they just should rework the set or just remove it same for goes proxi since it they are way more powerful in a zerg.

It sadly was, and they need to revisit mechanics on dealing with zergs so there are persistent reasons not to ball up in large groups aside from a single build. Perferably to me there would be a debuff on any group over 12 in a limited area that would stack on damage multipliers or reduce healing... but that's another thread.

The counter to zergs is siege. Right now it tickles.

HeroOfNone

Subversus wrote: »

@HeroOfNone you don't seem to get it. This set is USELESS if you don't stack. Everyone that dies to vicious death needs to take a big look at how they play the game.

I has conditions to meet the proc of another player dying, same as widowmaker requires a poison, Selena requires a melee attack, valkyn scoria has a dot tick, etc. But if we're being consistent, those all now have been given delays before the damage hits to allow counter play. This will still work the same for a majority of those stackers.

If your concern is that it's the only zerg counter though, then maybe it's not this set you should be addressing and instead the lack of anti stack mechanics.

Feanor

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Vicious death was the lazy band-aid-fix for zergs and as usual it is now the favorite toy of zergs just like proxi detonation.( And maybe bomb blades who are trying to kill pug groups when they don't pay attention)

In my opinion they just should rework the set or just remove it same for goes proxi since it they are way more powerful in a zerg.

It sadly was, and they need to revisit mechanics on dealing with zergs so there are persistent reasons not to ball up in large groups aside from a single build. Perferably to me there would be a debuff on any group over 12 in a limited area that would stack on damage multipliers or reduce healing... but that's another thread.

The counter to zergs is siege. Right now it tickles.

Then get hit by a cold fire siege in noCP and see if that only tickles. CP are the problem. Nothing else.

GreenSoup2HoT

Feanor wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Vicious death was the lazy band-aid-fix for zergs and as usual it is now the favorite toy of zergs just like proxi detonation.( And maybe bomb blades who are trying to kill pug groups when they don't pay attention)

In my opinion they just should rework the set or just remove it same for goes proxi since it they are way more powerful in a zerg.

It sadly was, and they need to revisit mechanics on dealing with zergs so there are persistent reasons not to ball up in large groups aside from a single build. Perferably to me there would be a debuff on any group over 12 in a limited area that would stack on damage multipliers or reduce healing... but that's another thread.

The counter to zergs is siege. Right now it tickles.

Then get hit by a cold fire siege in noCP and see if that only tickles. CP are the problem. Nothing else.

True. So i guess for cp, siege needs to not be mitigated by cp. Simple change.

Subversus

@HeroOfNone I still don't get you. You want consistency? Bring ashen grip on par with the rest, there are many sets that are underperforming and that, according to your (flawed) logic should be buffed.

Out of all the sets that need changes, you pick up literally the most balanced proc set out there. Let me put it straight for you. If you're not a moron, this set does literally nothing. Yes yes it has conditions, but unlike widowmaker which you're so eager to bring up, it actually requires the target to die, and doesn't rely on poisons that can be procced multiple times during a fight. This set only procs once per fight.

GreenSoup2HoT

Subversus wrote: »

@HeroOfNone I still don't get you. You want consistency? Bring ashen grip on par with the rest, there are many sets that are underperforming and that, according to your (flawed) logic should be buffed.

Out of all the sets that need changes, you pick up literally the most balanced proc set out there. Let me put it straight for you. If you're not a moron, this set does literally nothing. Yes yes it has conditions, but unlike widowmaker which you're so eager to bring up, it actually requires the target to die, and doesn't rely on poisons that can be procced multiple times during a fight. This set only procs once per fight.

Vicuous death balanced? Lmao. It hits harder then Seleane and is AoE. Its not even hard to kill someone with Deatro ulty either. Also when your entire raid group is wearing it, every kill procs it regardless.

You funny.

Subversus

@GreenSoup2HoT you funny too. Don't stack like a pug and it won't hurt you. Selenes is a guaranteed proc, VD is only guaranteed if you're a moron.

Scyantific

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

In the newest patch we have some changes coming into proc sets, one directly affecting the widowmaker set but not affecting vicious death at all.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Item Sets
Developer Comments – “Proc Set” changes and Monster Mask balance:

Item Sets have received two major rebalancing efforts this update with a focus on introducing more counterplay to certain Item Set procs and improving diversity in Monster Mask choices.

To introduce more counterplay to certain Item Set procs, we’ve changed the method in which they deal damage. While we are happy with the current damage values of these Item Sets, having them deliver that damage in unavoidable bursts has led to an unsatisfying PvP experience. The procs of these Item Sets now have unique mechanics to delay their damage, along with accompanying visual effects to allow more time to react to them.

...

[*]Widowmaker: This Item Set’s proc now drops a spore on the ground in front of you that explodes after 1 second instead of instantly dealing unavoidable damage.

I get that vicious death is counter play to large balled up zergs, but by the definition here, it's an instant proc that you have no counter play for, only preventive. Looking at widowmaker, the solution seems simple, make any bodies that due spawn bombs after they die, with a 1 second fuse. This will give feedback to the users and give a small chance to counter.

Widowmaker, I'd also argue, should be changed to have its disease spore spawn on the target, rather than the player. They will still have a chance to get away but this gives better build choices for ranged stamina.

Thanks for your time.

Agree with Vicious death... it offers no counter play at all.

They are probably changing widow maker because certain players have been exploiting it with bar swaps to proc at range for a long time. It's a melee set, but it can be made to proc at range and that's broken...

Wrong. Vicious Death requires you to kill a person, Widowmaker is free instant damage with a poison proc.

NordSwordnBoard

Phoenix set is a counter? Lol...

DocFrost72

My two cents, ice staff destro ult or soul tether will hold you still anyway. If you're on the end of a tether/proxy/sap bomb, you'll CC break to die to the 1 second delay anyway.

Subversus

@Scyantific exactly. These guys lmfao

GreenSoup2HoT

Subversus wrote: »

@GreenSoup2HoT you funny too. Don't stack like a pug and it won't hurt you. Selenes is a guaranteed proc, VD is only guaranteed if you're a moron.

i rock 35k hp woth quick cloak. i dont die to this. doesnt mean its not overpowered in bombing/raid train situations.

Subversus

@GreenSoup2HoT everything is overpowered in raid train situations.