Are there any plans to add counterplay against Resource Poisons?

Sanctum74

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Purge lol, obviously your not seeing the whole picture. It's not just about increase cost poisons, there is also magic drain poisons and if they are named differently then they will stack. There is also magic drain skills and cp which reduces your regeneration.

So you can have 30% increased cost making your purge cost over 7000 magick while at the same time having your magick drained by up to 4000 in that same 10 second poison proc. So thats 11000 magic lost in 10 seconds and you havnt even casted any buffs, heals, or damage skills. Not to mention your regen is reduced so your barely getting any magic back if any.

So what was that counter you were talking about XD

Wtf are you talking about? Nothing drains your stamina or magicka over-time.

Let's see there are poisons that not only increase skill cost, but YES drain magicka, stamina, and/or health depending on how you craft them. If they are named differently then they will stack.

There is also minor magicka steal from various skills like restoring aura and elemental drain.

There are also lightning ballistas and cp passives that reduce regeneration.

But some people still justify them because that's the only way they can get a kill without being in a zerg.

STEVIL

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Poisons only boost the cost of your skills, as explained.

But sometime, your full resource bar just vanish. It's mostly happens when you take a huge load of damage and the game thing that you're dead. You're losing all your resources before your healthbar, and then die one or two seconds later.

Except that I've had this happen to me on several occasions without dying; my health bar has remained relatively strong, but my Magicka is completely depleted...

I've had people leech my Magicka Pool at crazy rates...

I've gone from half to empty in a sec or two (and I wasn't spamming abilities either)...

There is some Poison that's crazy strong that's being used...

Either that Poison needs a serious nerf, or the Devs need to give us a way to defend against it, because its total and complete BS that someone can attack me in a way that I have absolutely no defense to...

ok so no poison so far in the game takes magica away from you.
none.
they increaese the cost of skills... thats it.

given that how do you know your magica theft was the fault of a poison vs any other ability?
far as i can tell you get hit with a bunch of crap, stand up then have no magica.
maybe the ultimate stole your magica.
maybe the light attack stole your magica.
maybe a small pixe stole your magica.

but jumping to the poison stole my magica conclusion needs more foundation.

Jaxaxo

Sanctum74 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Purge lol, obviously your not seeing the whole picture. It's not just about increase cost poisons, there is also magic drain poisons and if they are named differently then they will stack. There is also magic drain skills and cp which reduces your regeneration.

So you can have 30% increased cost making your purge cost over 7000 magick while at the same time having your magick drained by up to 4000 in that same 10 second poison proc. So thats 11000 magic lost in 10 seconds and you havnt even casted any buffs, heals, or damage skills. Not to mention your regen is reduced so your barely getting any magic back if any.

So what was that counter you were talking about XD

Wtf are you talking about? Nothing drains your stamina or magicka over-time.

Let's see there are poisons that not only increase skill cost, but YES drain magicka, stamina, and/or health depending on how you craft them. If they are named differently then they will stack.

There is also minor magicka steal from various skills like restoring aura and elemental drain.

There are also lightning ballistas and cp passives that reduce regeneration.

But some people still justify them because that's the only way they can get a kill without being in a zerg.

As @GreenSoup2HoT said there is no mechanic to drain resources on pvp except lightning ballista. Read tooltip for those skills u mentioned, they restore your resources, but dont drain from other players (tooltip has nothing with the name of the buff/skill)

STEVIL

Sanctum74 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Purge lol, obviously your not seeing the whole picture. It's not just about increase cost poisons, there is also magic drain poisons and if they are named differently then they will stack. There is also magic drain skills and cp which reduces your regeneration.

So you can have 30% increased cost making your purge cost over 7000 magick while at the same time having your magick drained by up to 4000 in that same 10 second poison proc. So thats 11000 magic lost in 10 seconds and you havnt even casted any buffs, heals, or damage skills. Not to mention your regen is reduced so your barely getting any magic back if any.

So what was that counter you were talking about XD

Wtf are you talking about? Nothing drains your stamina or magicka over-time.

Let's see there are poisons that not only increase skill cost, but YES drain magicka, stamina, and/or health depending on how you craft them. If they are named differently then they will stack.

There is also minor magicka steal from various skills like restoring aura and elemental drain.

There are also lightning ballistas and cp passives that reduce regeneration.

But some people still justify them because that's the only way they can get a kill without being in a zerg.

last i checked drain magica poisons do poison damage to the target and restore health to the user. Same for stamina and health versions.

last i checked magicasteal did not take your magica only gave magica back to the shooters when you got hit.

please post the ingredients to craft a poison that will actually take magica away from someone, as opposed to impacting their cost of future abilities. Alternatively you could say "maybe i was mistaken."

me, i cannot find my sunglasses... i think a poisons stole them.

correction you can add posions dmg to drain magica poisons but they normally just increase cost and restore magica to user.

Sanctum74

STEVIL wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Purge lol, obviously your not seeing the whole picture. It's not just about increase cost poisons, there is also magic drain poisons and if they are named differently then they will stack. There is also magic drain skills and cp which reduces your regeneration.

So you can have 30% increased cost making your purge cost over 7000 magick while at the same time having your magick drained by up to 4000 in that same 10 second poison proc. So thats 11000 magic lost in 10 seconds and you havnt even casted any buffs, heals, or damage skills. Not to mention your regen is reduced so your barely getting any magic back if any.

So what was that counter you were talking about XD

Wtf are you talking about? Nothing drains your stamina or magicka over-time.

Let's see there are poisons that not only increase skill cost, but YES drain magicka, stamina, and/or health depending on how you craft them. If they are named differently then they will stack.

There is also minor magicka steal from various skills like restoring aura and elemental drain.

There are also lightning ballistas and cp passives that reduce regeneration.

But some people still justify them because that's the only way they can get a kill without being in a zerg.

last i checked drain magica poisons do poison damage to the target and restore health to the user. Same for stamina and health versions.

last i checked magicasteal did not take your magica only gave magica back to the shooters when you got hit.

please post the ingredients to craft a poison that will actually take magica away from someone, as opposed to impacting their cost of future abilities. Alternatively you could say "maybe i was mistaken."

me, i cannot find my sunglasses... i think a poisons stole them.

correction you can add posions dmg to drain magica poisons but they normally just increase cost and restore magica to user.

Maybe i am mistaken? Or maybe we both are, or maybe tooltips and names do not always reflect reality.

When it comes to magickasteal i guess i assumed it did just what it says it does since its a purgeable effect and i actually see my magic go down. My bad guess I was mistaken.

As far as poisons go i can make one with blue entoloma and emetic russula that says:
Increases the cost of your victims magicka abilities by 30%

If i make one with corn flower and colombine it says:
Drains magicka from your target, increasing the cost of their magicka abilities by 30% and restores xx magicka to you per second.

Notice anything different about the 2nd poison??? Despite having the same 30% cost increase it also says Drains magicka from your target!!!

Again my bad i assumed it also does what it says and have experienced this in fights many times doing what it says it does.

Maybe it's just lag or whoever took your sunglasses i dont know, but not having the ability to fight back because you lose your resources is just cheap A$$ gameplay! Proving me right or wrong about tooltips will never change my opinion about resource poisons or the people that use them.

RoyJade

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Drains magicka from your target, increasing the cost of their magicka abilities by 30% and restores xx magicka to you per second.

I can confirm that these poisons don't actively eat your magicka bar. It does increase the cost of your skills, but if you use none it won't drop.

It's clearly a bug or a lag.

Rianai

I definitely had situations where i lost mag or stam without using skills and without getting hit by siege. It was a slow drain, not the occasional instant zero mag + stam + dead a few seconds later, which is obviously a bug. I assumed it was caused by poisons (though i was already wondering about the quite long duration of the effect). If it's not those poisons, what else could it be? Might post a video later.

Bosov

The best idea ive seen is turn the useless snakeblood passive into some kind of resist against those poisons.. nobody uses snakeblood anyway and it would give some kind of counter to all the poisons going around in every pvp enviroment.

Joy_Division

If this regularly happens to you, you are going to have to record it because resource poisons do not "drain" your magicka when you aren;t using skills. They just become more expensive to cast.

As far as I know, only lightning ballista actually drain away magicka.

TheDoomsdayMonster

@Joy_Division

You haven't been reading have you?

There ARE poisons that directly leech resources; the formula for one them is even listed above...

TheDoomsdayMonster

@STEVIL

Ready to admit that you are wrong about poisons that directly leech Magicka?

STEVIL

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Maybe i am mistaken? Or maybe we both are, or maybe tooltips and names do not always reflect reality.

When it comes to magickasteal i guess i assumed it did just what it says it does since its a purgeable effect and i actually see my magic go down. My bad guess I was mistaken.

As far as poisons go i can make one with blue entoloma and emetic russula that says:
Increases the cost of your victims magicka abilities by 30%

If i make one with corn flower and colombine it says:
Drains magicka from your target, increasing the cost of their magicka abilities by 30% and restores xx magicka to you per second.

Notice anything different about the 2nd poison??? Despite having the same 30% cost increase it also says Drains magicka from your target!!!

Again my bad i assumed it also does what it says and have experienced this in fights many times doing what it says it does.

Maybe it's just lag or whoever took your sunglasses i dont know, but not having the ability to fight back because you lose your resources is just cheap A$$ gameplay! Proving me right or wrong about tooltips will never change my opinion about resource poisons or the people that use them.

Re the bold

Well see thats the thing you cannot get hung up on the fluff text and titles. the numbers are what matter and what you can see and test.

Re the italics

i figured that is where the confusion was.

Ok so, you are right in the fluff text differences. You are wrong in the effects.

Ravage poisons use the "black" ravage magica and ravage health etc.
Drain poisons use the white restore magica and the restore health etc.

they all have that same difference in flavor text.

but they each list what they do - the numbers. notice there is not one number in your "drains" aboput how much magica is "stolen" just an amount restored to the user and an amount of INCREASE to cost for the target.

Do the exact same thing with a Restore health poison and see the same text.

Now go to the target dummy and fire it off a few times. you will see ONLY the poisons damage tick mentions and an ongoing heal effect that ticks and ticks and ticks on you with NO "stolen health" to show for it at all.

Really, go test it.

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

@STEVIL

Ready to admit that you are wrong about poisons that directly leech Magicka?

Not at all... i have used poisons drain and ravage and others quite a bit and i know from experience the fluff text at the beginning of the drain poisons is just that.

DRAIN poisons have a defined effect (increase cost or poisons damage) and then a gradual ticking restore but they do not actively drain the resources.

its really that simple.

STEVIL

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Proving me right or wrong about tooltips will never change my opinion about resource poisons or the people that use them.

Re this bit however...

i could care less what you think about tooltips or poisons or people... but if you have this fantasy that poisons actively steal youe magica and that fantasy is driving or contributing to your judgements, then maybe that is something you should consider.

I mean, there was once this belief that cats were in league with the devil and the devil caused disease and folks made judgements and health policy based on those fantasies and it did not work out too well for them, you know.

But i do think that you and the others should put bold up to in largest font and underlined your belief that they actively steal your resources, not just passively increase cost, with every post where you rail against or lobby for removal of resource poisons so that the actual decision makers can see the true strength of your arguments right off the bat.

DDuke

There are no poisons that drain resources, period. Only ones that increase costs for target & ones that increase costs for target & return magicka to you*.

Same thing goes for the "Minor Magickasteal" debuff, it doesn't actually "steal" any resources from the target - only returns resources to you when you damage that target.


Likely things that might've happened in your situation:

1. Bug. Welcome to ESO.
2. A lightning ballista hit you (the only thing that can actually drain your magicka in PvP).
3. You had a frost staff equipped and didn't realize it while blocking.

*Even if this somehow magically drained magicka from you (which it doesn't), the tooltip for how much it returns to the person who applied the poison is only 238 magicka/second over 5.5 seconds (9.5 with Assassin's Guile set). So I doubt you lost your entire magicka pool to that.

Sanctum74

Then there has to some other broken mechanic that causes this problem?

I've had situations with 1800 recovery, all negative effects purged, no lightning ballista, and while performing a heavy lightning staff attack still lose magicka. It doesnt happen all the time, but enough that it's a problem. And no I'm not talking about the desync problem where you can still run around with no resources when your actually dead.

I know Zos wants us to manage our resources better, but that's just crazy!

DDuke

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Then there has to some other broken mechanic that causes this problem?

I've had situations with 1800 recovery, all negative effects purged, no lightning ballista, and while performing a heavy lightning staff attack still lose magicka. It doesnt happen all the time, but enough that it's a problem. And no I'm not talking about the desync problem where you can still run around with no resources when your actually dead.

I know Zos wants us to manage our resources better, but that's just crazy!

1. Bug. Welcome to ESO.

There's no other explanation.

My "Drain Magicka Poison IX" & the stamina counterpart do not "drain" target's resources, this has been tested. They only increase costs for target & return resources to me.

STEVIL

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Then there has to some other broken mechanic that causes this problem?

Hey but please, don't let your being very very wrong about what those poisons actually do change make you rethink anything about your opinion on resource poisons or the people that use them.

That would be just crazy, basing opinion on fact and not fantasy.

SanTii.92

Well, the buff to the infused trait is an indirect nerf to poisons altogether. I do feel tho that maybe maelstrom/masters weapon should also have it's stats dmge suppressed too, maybe.

Sanctum74

STEVIL wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Then there has to some other broken mechanic that causes this problem?

Hey but please, don't let your being very very wrong about what those poisons actually do change make you rethink anything about your opinion on resource poisons or the people that use them.

That would be just crazy, basing opinion on fact and not fantasy.

Wrong or not it still doesnt change my opinions on poisons or the people that use them, but hey who am I to judge if that's the only way people can get kills.

STEVIL

Sanctum74 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Then there has to some other broken mechanic that causes this problem?

Hey but please, don't let your being very very wrong about what those poisons actually do change make you rethink anything about your opinion on resource poisons or the people that use them.

That would be just crazy, basing opinion on fact and not fantasy.

Wrong or not it still doesnt change my opinions on poisons or the people that use them, but hey who am I to judge if that's the only way people can get kills.

just curious, if **you** wearing say a julianos set or a hundings set or a viper set or gold plated equipment or whatever it is you do equip your character with while pvping do you also consider all those "the only way **you** can get kills" too or is only stuff that kills you given such a description?

First law of Nerf-o-Dynamics is strong with this one.

I mean, since hundings does ten million damage to every enemy within 1000' (wait it doesn't, well that realization shouldn't affect conclusions, right?)

SodanTok

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Well, the buff to the infused trait is an indirect nerf to poisons altogether. I do feel tho that maybe maelstrom/masters weapon should also have it's stats dmge suppressed too, maybe.

Can we stop destroying everything when some..ONE..thing is too good? This patch already nerfs agi+mael set combo and infused and oblivion enchant made it less popular. No need to kill the mael part too because resource poisons are OP (hint: thats ONE type of all poisons in the game)

Sanctum74

STEVIL wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Then there has to some other broken mechanic that causes this problem?

Hey but please, don't let your being very very wrong about what those poisons actually do change make you rethink anything about your opinion on resource poisons or the people that use them.

That would be just crazy, basing opinion on fact and not fantasy.

Wrong or not it still doesnt change my opinions on poisons or the people that use them, but hey who am I to judge if that's the only way people can get kills.

just curious, if **you** wearing say a julianos set or a hundings set or a viper set or gold plated equipment or whatever it is you do equip your character with while pvping do you also consider all those "the only way **you** can get kills" too or is only stuff that kills you given such a description?

First law of Nerf-o-Dynamics is strong with this one.

I mean, since hundings does ten million damage to every enemy within 1000' (wait it doesn't, well that realization shouldn't affect conclusions, right?)

Lol, first law of troll-o-dynamics is strong with this one. See I can do that too, but seriously I win by giving my enemy the chance to fight back. If they are high damage they are usually squishy. Tanky then they are usually low damage so there are always counters to different builds.

Poisons on the other hand there is no counter with the increase cost of abilities. I guess I'm just old fashioned thinking it should be skill based and give people the chance to fight back and actually use their skills.

DDuke

Sanctum74 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Then there has to some other broken mechanic that causes this problem?

Hey but please, don't let your being very very wrong about what those poisons actually do change make you rethink anything about your opinion on resource poisons or the people that use them.

That would be just crazy, basing opinion on fact and not fantasy.

Wrong or not it still doesnt change my opinions on poisons or the people that use them, but hey who am I to judge if that's the only way people can get kills.

just curious, if **you** wearing say a julianos set or a hundings set or a viper set or gold plated equipment or whatever it is you do equip your character with while pvping do you also consider all those "the only way **you** can get kills" too or is only stuff that kills you given such a description?

First law of Nerf-o-Dynamics is strong with this one.

I mean, since hundings does ten million damage to every enemy within 1000' (wait it doesn't, well that realization shouldn't affect conclusions, right?)

Lol, first law of troll-o-dynamics is strong with this one. See I can do that too, but seriously I win by giving my enemy the chance to fight back. If they are high damage they are usually squishy. Tanky then they are usually low damage so there are always counters to different builds.

Poisons on the other hand there is no counter with the increase cost of abilities. I guess I'm just old fashioned thinking it should be skill based and give people the chance to fight back and actually use their skills.

The counter to increased cost of abilities is decreasing the cost of your abilities or getting enough regen to deal with the increased costs.

You could say these cost increase poisons were implemented to deal with people having infinite resources while they spam their shields or permablock (not very "skillful" either) - sadly they don't really work as people still get infinite resources (atleast in 1v1) with things like Amberplasm, Lich etc.

Oh, also: high damage usually means the opposite of squishy, as damage & healing scale off the same stats. It is a good indicator of low sustain though (so potentially your opponent doesn't have infinite resources).

STEVIL

Sanctum74 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Then there has to some other broken mechanic that causes this problem?

Hey but please, don't let your being very very wrong about what those poisons actually do change make you rethink anything about your opinion on resource poisons or the people that use them.

That would be just crazy, basing opinion on fact and not fantasy.

Wrong or not it still doesnt change my opinions on poisons or the people that use them, but hey who am I to judge if that's the only way people can get kills.

just curious, if **you** wearing say a julianos set or a hundings set or a viper set or gold plated equipment or whatever it is you do equip your character with while pvping do you also consider all those "the only way **you** can get kills" too or is only stuff that kills you given such a description?

First law of Nerf-o-Dynamics is strong with this one.

I mean, since hundings does ten million damage to every enemy within 1000' (wait it doesn't, well that realization shouldn't affect conclusions, right?)

Lol, first law of troll-o-dynamics is strong with this one. See I can do that too, but seriously I win by giving my enemy the chance to fight back. If they are high damage they are usually squishy. Tanky then they are usually low damage so there are always counters to different builds.

Poisons on the other hand there is no counter with the increase cost of abilities. I guess I'm just old fashioned thinking it should be skill based and give people the chance to fight back and actually use their skills.

Well lets see... my cost for say magica abilities is increaeed for a few seconds out of 10... so i use ultimate, i dodge or block or focus on the heavy/light attacks or etc...

now no doubt some are going to respond with something like "just try that and see if you win" but let me point out you just got finished observing that you prefer to let people have losing counterplay alternatives... "seriously I win by giving my enemy the chance to fight back." right so the simple fact is that there are counterplay options to these kinds of poisons just like there are counterplay options to all the things you mentioned - and sometimes even with counterplay they lose. (obviously if the poison is stacked to the roof with multiple cost hits - as much as possible) they last for so short of a time that barring multi-on-one the short duration is its own counterplay.

But all this comes back to the reason the unifnormed OP belief, backed up by you, that fantastical poisons sucked the life out of their magica pool - had such a poison been in play so that a single tick costs tens of thousands of magica in an instat, that would be no counterplay problems on a grand scale. But it turns out its just a cost increase so... for some thats not gonna make one whit of difference in their pre-formed opinions... it seems.

i seem to recall something about building one's house on sand... i think it was in South Park maybe?

STEVIL

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Lol, first law of troll-o-dynamics is strong with this one. See I can do that too, but seriously I win by giving my enemy the chance to fight back.

Awww... thats cute but clearly not as well thought thru.

i mean, in mine the LoNoD is in the sig so its clear how it pertains to your ongoing posts about how good and fair your kills and fighting are as opposed to the obviously bad or unfair ways others "have to" get kills. might as well be shotuing the first law of Nerf-o-Dynamics from a high horse on a pedestal.

but just throwing in a copy-clone ref with no tie-ins... my gosh, talk about phoning it in.

ARIES SERPICO

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

I ask this because at current, there is no defense to them and that's just not right in a game where the Devs say that they want to encourage "Counterplay Based Gameplay."

A few days ago I fought a guy (he was a Stamina Templar; I am a Magicka Templar) and he literally drained me of over 30k Magicka in about 4-5 secs...

I had full Magicka (over 36k), cast a single ability (Purifying Light), then he hits me with Dawnbreaker, starts to combo me, and by the time I got to my feet my Magicka bar was completely empty...I could cast nothing.

36k Magicka...one ability used...completely empty Magicka bar.


Thats not right @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert ...

There should be some way of protecting your Resources from this sort of thing...

What happened in that instance had nothing to do with my opponents skill or my ability to manage my Resources; all of that occurred because there is no counterplay to the Poisons...

The proc sets overperforming wasn't as bad as this; you can build a character to withstand the punishment proc sets could output, so atleast you could counter them given whats available in todays game. There is nothing in the current game that would allow me to prevent what I described above from happening to me...nothing.


So, are there any plans to add counterplay against Resource Poisons to this game?

Use purge

Sanctum74

Resource poisons can be crafted to last the full duration and with poison inject can easily be procced 100% of the time. I'm wearing 5 light and 2 heavy and an average skill cost of 3000. So if I only do a skill every 2 seconds I would need an additional 900 recovery to make up for it.

If i changed my 2 heavy for 2 light for more cost reduction I would lose a lot of health and resistance and even then I would still need an additional 864 recovery.

This would require changing all jewelry glyphs, mundus, and armour and would leave me with about 1700 spell power. If that's what you consider to be a viable counter then I guess I should just join the club and cheese it up with poisons and procs!

DDuke

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Resource poisons can be crafted to last the full duration and with poison inject can easily be procced 100% of the time. I'm wearing 5 light and 2 heavy and an average skill cost of 3000. So if I only do a skill every 2 seconds I would need an additional 900 recovery to make up for it.

If i changed my 2 heavy for 2 light for more cost reduction I would lose a lot of health and resistance and even then I would still need an additional 864 recovery.

This would require changing all jewelry glyphs, mundus, and armour and would leave me with about 1700 spell power. If that's what you consider to be a viable counter then I guess I should just join the club and cheese it up with poisons and procs!

Poisons have 10 second cooldown & 20% proc chance, it's much harder to actually apply them than you think (unless you're using Rapid Strikes, Lightning Heavy or Force Pulse). Only Poison Injection's initial hit can proc poisons.

As for 900 recovery, you can more than make up for that by heavy attacking. If that's not an option, try a set like Desert Rose (worth around 600-1200 regen depending on whom you're fighting), Lich (worth 412 regen), Syrabane (infinite magicka vs magicka builds) or Amberplasm (360 regen with Major buff).

If poisons were as strong as you think they are, more people would be using them instead of oblivion enchants.

NyassaV

Sounds like a health desync... But yes cost poisons are an issue

Wolfchild07

Add a neutralise poisons potion that removes the effects of poisons and makes you immune to poisons for the duration. It adds counterplay and it makes sense.