Feedback: Rapid Fire = 175 / Soul Strike = 100 (Bow Ultimate is too Expensive)

GrumpyDuckling

Edit: 5/21/18

From patch notes:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/413283/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-0-5-summerset-update-18#latest

Rapid Fire: This ability and the Toxic Barrage morph now grant you crowd control immunity while you are channeling them.
Developer Comments:
This puts these abilities more in line with the Soul Strike ability, which provides similar protections. We don’t want players to activate an Ultimate and have it easily and immediately negated.

You know what else would put these abilities more in line with Soul Strike? Reducing the cost. Soul Assault is 75 points cheaper. Consider the following:
Suggestions
Rapid Fire = 100
Toxic Barrage = 125
Ballista = 175 (although a case could be made for 150 as it is still a single target skill)

---

Original Post
Compared to the other most comparable single target ultimate, the bow ultimate appears to be too expensive. Note that the bow ultimate has a cast time and an additional counter (can be dodged). It also has build restrictions (must equip bow):

Rapid Fire/Toxic Barrage/Ballista
Cost - 175
Target - Single
Cast/Channel Time - 4.1 seconds total (0.8 cast time and 3.3 channel time)
Counters - Block, Dodge, LOS
Requires - Bow equipped, doesn't allow 5-5-2 armor build

Soul Strike/Soul Assault/Shatter Soul
Cost - 100
Target - Single (also has an AOE explosion upon kill morph)
Cast/Channel Time - 2.9 seconds (with a 3.9 seconds morph)
Counters - Block, LOS
Requires - No build restrictions (just complete main quest), allows 5-5-2 armor build

While I can see the argument for keeping Ballista at 175 (becuase players can keep attacking during the ultimate's use), I think Rapid Fire and Toxic Barrage could use some re-evaluation. Consider the following cost changes:

Suggestions
Rapid Fire = 100
Toxic Barrage = 125
Ballista = 175 (although a case could be made for 150 as it is still a single target skill)

Please consider the above information during balancing process.
@Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert

Toc de Malsvi

Soul Strike and morphs cannot be interrupted and you cannot be CC'd while using them.

Beardimus

Ermm.. Nope i disagree.

Bow ulti is epic, blows people away, soul strike is useless and never kills anyone unless they noob or were half dead already. It has so many counters

GrumpyDuckling

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Soul Strike and morphs cannot be interrupted and you cannot be CC'd while using them.

Was that always the case? I thought bash and interrupt skills (like Venom Arrow) used to work against it - unless I'm thinking about Radiant Destruction. Either way, that means it's even stronger than bow ultimate.

olsborg

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Soul Strike and morphs cannot be interrupted and you cannot be CC'd while using them.

This.

Ballista morph can be put in a location and you can continure to attack targets freely, still its a bit steep cost imo since its easily dodgeable, LOS'able and blockable(albeit costly to block it).

The Toxic Barrage morph should be cheaper and should get the soul assault treatment. Aka not blockable, dodgeable and interruptable.

GrumpyDuckling

Beardimus wrote: »

Ermm.. Nope i disagree.

Bow ulti is epic, blows people away, soul strike is useless and never kills anyone unless they noob or were half dead already. It has so many counters

Bow ultimate blows people away under the same conditions as soul strike. If people are standing still, not blocking, or not dodging.

DocFrost72

olsborg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Soul Strike and morphs cannot be interrupted and you cannot be CC'd while using them.

This.

Ballista morph can be put in a location and you can continure to attack targets freely, still its a bit steep cost imo since its easily dodgeable, LOS'able and blockable(albeit costly to block it).

The Toxic Barrage morph should be cheaper and should get the soul assault treatment. Aka not blockable, dodgeable and interruptable.

Soul assault is blockable.

Chilly-McFreeze

olsborg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Soul Strike and morphs cannot be interrupted and you cannot be CC'd while using them.

This.

Ballista morph can be put in a location and you can continure to attack targets freely, still its a bit steep cost imo since its easily dodgeable, LOS'able and blockable(albeit costly to block it).

The Toxic Barrage morph should be cheaper and should get the soul assault treatment. Aka not blockable, dodgeable and interruptable.

Uff, isn't there enough crap out there that can't be blocked or dodged? What am I supposed to do in medium armor? Cast Bone Shield or hope I didn't get catched in the open so I can hide behind a rock?

QuebraRegra

Figured the same thing out this weekend, and switched to SOUL ASSAULT from the bow ult.

Clearly not balanced... WROBEL'd

Xvorg

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Ermm.. Nope i disagree.

Bow ulti is epic, blows people away, soul strike is useless and never kills anyone unless they noob or were half dead already. It has so many counters

Bow ultimate blows people away under the same conditions as soul strike. If people are standing still, not blocking, or not dodging.

Grumpy, ballista can be put, then you can swap bars and beat the hell of an enemy with a 2H sword. You can't do that with Soul strike.

Though toxic barrage should reduce its cost at least to 125 ulti. 150 if they increase the DoT

Toc de Malsvi

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Soul Strike and morphs cannot be interrupted and you cannot be CC'd while using them.

Was that always the case? I thought bash and interrupt skills (like Venom Arrow) used to work against it - unless I'm thinking about Radiant Destruction. Either way, that means it's even stronger than bow ultimate.

Not always, it was changed a while back 1T I believe.

Toc de Malsvi

Prior to Morrowind bow ult kinda sucked. Best use was with a NB right before fear and hope they cannot break it.

Since Morrowind it has been more effective, mostly due to the resource issues introduced which make it harder to spam dodge roll, block, or shields.

It's important to try and burn your targets stamina before using it.

caperon

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Prior to Morrowind bow ult kinda sucked. Best use was with a NB right before fear and hope they cannot break it.

Since Morrowind it has been more effective, mostly due to the resource issues introduced which make it harder to spam dodge roll, block, or shields.

It's important to try and burn your targets stamina before using it.

I use stam nb that spambush me. The bad ones realize to late, when im already executing them, then try to cloak, but bow ult removes cloak.

Akinos

I get killed or hurt badly by the bow ult way more then I do from SA. Also the turret morph of the bow ult persists even after the caster dies, and continues to fire aswell...not fun getting rekt by a person you already killed lol.

SodanTok

Before (well too late) this transforms to another thread of pointing out very specific scenarios where Ballista is somehow even good. Lets stop and check out the second morph. Which is just in every possible way worse Soul Assault.

Then lets take tour to the realm of destro ult and check out the unblockable and undodgeable and uninterruptable AoE damage it outputs albeit for 75 more ult and shorter range.

Now we can talk to ballista and how it compares. You gotta agree that for 175 cost ulti it does not do very much you could not do with many other ulties better. You can use it vs low HP enemy after CC and you still arent guaranteed they will die. Most other offensive ulties give you at least that.

Waffennacht

I think it would see play at 115 ult cost

IlCanis_LupuslI

Bow ist isnt to expensive....
Soul assault is way way way to cheap

Destyran

Soul assault 100 standard too expensive. Standard needs to be cheaper.

Ya know you can use soul assault too

IlCanis_LupuslI

Ya lets make them both cost 1 ultimate so we can all just spamm soul assault or the bow ult[irony]

KingYogi415

Boe is AOE damage.

Next topic!!!

IlCanis_LupuslI

Or even better=ALL ultis only cost 1 ultis then we can all spamm destro ult non Stop and everyone will be happy then right???? I mean everybody can use it right??? That definitiv will justify every Ulti only costing 1 up to right???

peak99

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Figured the same thing out this weekend, and switched to SOUL ASSAULT from the bow ult.

Clearly not balanced... WROBEL'd

SMH
...magicka classes have to use dawn breakers with no magic damage.

change one, change them all!

GrumpyDuckling

peak99 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Figured the same thing out this weekend, and switched to SOUL ASSAULT from the bow ult.

Clearly not balanced... WROBEL'd

SMH
...magicka classes have to use dawn breakers with no magic damage.

change one, change them all!

Magicka has more ultimate morphs in this game than stamina does.

Waffennacht

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

peak99 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Figured the same thing out this weekend, and switched to SOUL ASSAULT from the bow ult.

Clearly not balanced... WROBEL'd

SMH
...magicka classes have to use dawn breakers with no magic damage.

change one, change them all!

Magicka has more ultimate morphs in this game than stamina does.

Not in the affordable department if you take out Soul Assault

paulsimonps

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

peak99 wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Figured the same thing out this weekend, and switched to SOUL ASSAULT from the bow ult.

Clearly not balanced... WROBEL'd

SMH
...magicka classes have to use dawn breakers with no magic damage.

change one, change them all!

Magicka has more ultimate morphs in this game than stamina does.

In non CP PvP everyone can use every ultimate, since only CP effects which ultimate is better or worse for Magicka or Stamina.

Also there are some really strong counter towards the Bow Ultimate, DK's Reflect and the Sword and Board ultimate can reflect all of it. Used those counters myself and seen people nuke themselves to death. Can't do anything but block and LOS the Soul Assault.

Solariken

The Ballista morph damage is totally fine as-is, a cost of 150 would be more appropriate though.

I wish the Toxic Barrage morph could be changed to something different, it's total garbage... I think it would be awesome if instead it fired a single noxious projectile that explodes at the ground in front of your target, dealing X AoE direct damage and an additional Y damage over Z seconds.

GrumpyDuckling

Solariken wrote: »

The Ballista morph damage is totally fine as-is, a cost of 150 would be more appropriate though.

I wish the Toxic Barrage morph could be changed to something different, it's total garbage... I think it would be awesome if instead it fired a single noxious projectile that explodes at the ground in front of your target, dealing X AoE direct damage and an additional Y damage over Z seconds.

That idea for Toxic Barrage sounds beautiful! It would be the AOE stamina ultimate of my PVE dreams, and would be fun in PVP breaches. Something I've been thinking about which would also be cool is a heal-type ability that shoots multiple non-damage arrows at allies to "invigorate" them. It would be cool to have some more stamina healing options.

leepalmer95

Its not that bow ult is too expensive.

It's that soul assault is too cheap.

soul assault also hits harder, can't be dodged and has a snare.

Morgul667

Ballista is great ultimate

Johngo0036

i use soul assault on my stam NB as the tooltip shows 10k more damage on it and it is undodgeable etc..

works just great..

DeHei

The main difference between this 2 ultis is, that you able to use other skills while the bow ulti shots and you arent able to do anything while you channel the soul assoult ult.. I think this could explain the higher costs