Issues with Medium Armor & How To Fix It

PS4_ZeColmeia

they have a set that increases the damage avoidance window which means the ability to extend it is already in the game. I think making each piece of medium increase that window by .07 seconds means as 5PC you get .35 seconds. If you then added that set, which no one uses, to it you are immune .65s after dodging or .79s with 7PC.

I think this gives value to that set and mitigation in the MA set even if it's active mitigation.

I also agree with the movement speed adjustment as it helps sprinting and helps stamblades that don't take concealed weapon.

SodanTok

Just realized one of the more obvious and helpful solutions (not complete, but helpful at least). Someone here I think even suggested it. So I only borrow the very popular argument from fellow mag players for the support.

Damage going through dodge should not be able to crit (during the dodge roll), because dodge roll cannot crit either and there is 0 mitigation.

//EDIT:
It was @Ragnaroek93

Maryal

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that ZOS gave medium armor the suggested additional passives, you do realize they would take one or more existing passives away (or nerf one or more into oblivion). So, what would that be?

Existing passives:
a.) Increased movement speed while sprinting/reduced cost of dodge roll (5 piece required);
b.) Increased weapon damage (5 piece required);
c.) Reduced cost of sneak/reduce wearer's sneak detection radius;
d.) Increased stamina recovery/reduced stamina costs; and
e.) Increased weapon critical rating

I want the existing passives ... all of them, nor do I want any of the existing passives nerfed. So, I say leave medium armor passives alone.

Killset

Maikon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

70% damage reduction during roll dodge, Ummmm, no.

Would you prefer the "0% damage reduction, avoid nothing and drain your own stamina" that it currently is?

If not, maybe you could elaborate on your comment?


Edit: to be more clear, in the past Roll Dodge used to avoid almost all damage (100%) and didn't have a stacking cost to it - I believe 70% would be a fair compromise especially considering no one can spam it anymore.

You must be smoking some high quality crack, I've seen nb's dodge roll 15+ times in a row and still have more then enough stam to burst someone down or sprint away.

BS

Killset

Medium armor is a relic. It's a throwback from the game as it was 2 years ago. The amount of damage being thrown around has rendered it obsolete. Not to mention how many things can no longer be countered. Soul Assault alone melts medium armor users and if you block it, chances are you won't have any stamina left to survive afterwards. Whether you buff medium or start nerfing a lot of abilities, I don't care, but something needs to be done.

Maryal

Killset wrote: »

Medium armor is a relic. It's a throwback from the game as it was 2 years ago. The amount of damage being thrown around has rendered it obsolete. Not to mention how many things can no longer be countered. Soul Assault alone melts medium armor users and if you block it, chances are you won't have any stamina left to survive afterwards. Whether you buff medium or start beefing a lot of abilities, I don't care, but something needs to be done.

Medium armor is not a throwback from the game as it was 2 years ago. Two years ago wearing medium armor reduced the cost of stamina abilities a lot more than it does now (remember ... it got nerfed in Morrowind).

Soul Assault is a direct counter to medium armor builds

Medium armor has more to do with speed, agility (burst damage), and stealth than it does with damage mitigation. If you need more damage mitigation you may need to consider heavy armor.

I wear medium armor and I would be very happy if it were buffed (and I don't mean the: "it will be a buff if..." type of buff). That being said, I'm pretty sure ZOS wouldn't buff an entire class of armor without giving it an accompanying nerf, and that's where I have a problem. Picture this:

1. Medium Armor gets X buff but Medium Armor also gets Y nerf to compensate for getting X buff;
2. People in the forums become stark-raving mad saying Medium Armor X buff is OP and demand it be nerfed;
3. ZOS ends up nerfing the Medium Armor X buff, and does nothing un-do Medium Armor Y nerf (after all, there is still an X buff, albeit a nerfed one, which is why there will be no change to Y nerf).
   
   As a result, medium armor ends up with 2 really worthless passives.

Ishammael

Core problem is too many undodgeable skills, not medium armor per se.

Regardless, another idea for Medium armor would be to give it extra impen per piece worn.

Strider_Roshin

Medium armor wearers have no means of counter play if they're going against a Warden, a Destro Ult, Soul Assault, or Radiant Destruction unless they're a stamblade.

If there were this many abilities that went through damage shields it would've been addressed immediately.

Killset

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Medium armor wearers have no means of counter play if they're going against a Warden, a Destro Ult, Soul Assault, or Radiant Destruction unless they're a stamblade.

If there were this many abilities that went through damage shields it would've been addressed immediately.

What is the counter play against Soul Assault and Destro Ultimate as a medium armor wearing stamblade that is different from everyone else? I'll save you the trouble and answer for you. There is none. You have to get out of the AOE of Destro Ult and block/pray through Soul Assault... Soul Assault is beyond broken.

And I agree. If I had abilities like that against shield users these forums would be on fire with qq posts.

GreenSoup2HoT

Killset wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Medium armor wearers have no means of counter play if they're going against a Warden, a Destro Ult, Soul Assault, or Radiant Destruction unless they're a stamblade.

If there were this many abilities that went through damage shields it would've been addressed immediately.

What is the counter play against Soul Assault and Destro Ultimate as a medium armor wearing stamblade that is different from everyone else? I'll save you the trouble and answer for you. There is none. You have to get out of the AOE of Destro Ult and block/pray through Soul Assault... Soul Assault is beyond broken.

And I agree. If I had abilities like that against shield users these forums would be on fire with qq posts.

every mag class in game can shield stack or heal through it. medium cant dodge it. were forced to sprint where gap closers make this void. medium is in a terrible spot right now.

SirSocke

Not to forget every other class can dodge and block, too.

Valencer

Medium doesn't need buffs.

Heavy needs to be brought down, something needs to be done about all the undodgeable *** and something also needs to be done about the proctard meta in which you NEED heavy armour to not get bursted down instantly the moment youre not dodging.

Treat the cause, not the symptoms. Make Cyrodiil great again... etc etc

Solariken

I like your suggestions a lot OP, although your proposed damage reduction % during roll dodge is crazy excessive
: P

I would like to see the sneaking passive replaced with something less toxic - that might be a great place to put the % damage redux during dodgeroll. If people want to be extra sneaky they can build for it in other ways.

I also agree with the suggestions in the first comment by @GreenSoup2HoT; constantly throttling regen is the biggest thorn in the side of medium armor. Sprint/sneak disabling regen makes more sense I guess, but the block regen cut is disproportionately painful to medium armor versus light/heavy.

Solariken

Another thing medium armor needs (which would be great for overall balance too) is to replace Major Evasion with a parry chance (new Major Deflection buff?). So instead of a 15% chance to dodge completely, maybe a 30% chance to reduce incoming direct damage by 50%. More reliable mitigation for you, less frustration and RNG-decided fights overall.

DDuke

Maryal wrote: »

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that ZOS gave medium armor the suggested additional passives, you do realize they would take one or more existing passives away (or nerf one or more into oblivion). So, what would that be?

Existing passives:
a.) Increased movement speed while sprinting/reduced cost of dodge roll (5 piece required);
b.) Increased weapon damage (5 piece required);
c.) Reduced cost of sneak/reduce wearer's sneak detection radius;
d.) Increased stamina recovery/reduced stamina costs; and
e.) Increased weapon critical rating

I want the existing passives ... all of them, nor do I want any of the existing passives nerfed. So, I say leave medium armor passives alone.

Why would anything in medium armor skill tree require a nerf? You're assuming that when something is made viable in one way, it has to be ruined in another way - which to me makes no sense.

And for the sake of argument, I could say c.) is absolutely useless garbage since they removed most incentives to use sneak in the first place with Morrowind patch (sneak attack modifier) & it has virtually no application in combat (only in escaping).

Valencer wrote: »

Medium doesn't need buffs.

Heavy needs to be brought down, something needs to be done about all the undodgeable *** and something also needs to be done about the proctard meta in which you NEED heavy armour to not get bursted down instantly the moment youre not dodging.

Treat the cause, not the symptoms. Make Cyrodiil great again... etc etc

Well, they can nerf almost everything else (undodgeable ***, heavy armor) or they can buff medium armor - either way works.


I don't think stamina procs are going to be as much of a problem after next patch - Viper getting changed to a DoT & delayed, telegraphed Red Mountain procs already elegantly deal with two of the most popular proc sets.

Of course, you'll still have heavy armor builds running around with Skoria/Selene/Flame Blossom etc - but medium builds can't instagib you with multiple simultaneous procs anymore.

Maryal

DDuke wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that ZOS gave medium armor the suggested additional passives, you do realize they would take one or more existing passives away (or nerf one or more into oblivion). So, what would that be?

Existing passives:
a.) Increased movement speed while sprinting/reduced cost of dodge roll (5 piece required);
b.) Increased weapon damage (5 piece required);
c.) Reduced cost of sneak/reduce wearer's sneak detection radius;
d.) Increased stamina recovery/reduced stamina costs; and
e.) Increased weapon critical rating

I want the existing passives ... all of them, nor do I want any of the existing passives nerfed. So, I say leave medium armor passives alone.

Why would anything in medium armor skill tree require a nerf? You're assuming that when something is made viable in one way, it has to be ruined in another way - which to me makes no sense.

And for the sake of argument, I could say c.) is absolutely useless garbage since they removed most incentives to use sneak in the first place with Morrowind patch (sneak attack modifier) & it has virtually no application in combat (only in escaping).

I am not advocating for a quid pro quo regarding medium armor buff/nerf. I'm just saying that when ZOS buffs one part of a class to the exclusion of others (such as a buffing medium armor but not light or heavy armor), you typically see the buff come with an accompanying nerf.

The usefulness of any or all of the existing medium armor passives is very subjective ... it depends on how you play the game, and, for better or worse, it also depends on what ever the flavor-of-the-month-meta is.

SodanTok

Maryal wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that ZOS gave medium armor the suggested additional passives, you do realize they would take one or more existing passives away (or nerf one or more into oblivion). So, what would that be?

Existing passives:
a.) Increased movement speed while sprinting/reduced cost of dodge roll (5 piece required);
b.) Increased weapon damage (5 piece required);
c.) Reduced cost of sneak/reduce wearer's sneak detection radius;
d.) Increased stamina recovery/reduced stamina costs; and
e.) Increased weapon critical rating

I want the existing passives ... all of them, nor do I want any of the existing passives nerfed. So, I say leave medium armor passives alone.

Why would anything in medium armor skill tree require a nerf? You're assuming that when something is made viable in one way, it has to be ruined in another way - which to me makes no sense.

And for the sake of argument, I could say c.) is absolutely useless garbage since they removed most incentives to use sneak in the first place with Morrowind patch (sneak attack modifier) & it has virtually no application in combat (only in escaping).

I am not advocating for a quid pro quo regarding medium armor buff/nerf. I'm just saying that when ZOS buffs one part of a class to the exclusion of others (such as a buffing medium armor but not light or heavy armor), you typically see the buff come with an accompanying nerf.

The usefulness of any or all of the existing medium armor passives is very subjective ... it depends on how you play the game, and, for better or worse, it also depends on what ever the flavor-of-the-month-meta is.

It is not that subjective. Sneak cost and sneak detection radius passive is pretty easy to single out. It is forced upon everybody yet only gankers(only half of them anyway!) and sneak roleplayers benefit from it. This and the similar sneaking passives from racial should have long ago be abolished or moved somewhere else to make them either available to anyone (like cost reduction in legendermain tree) or offer them in CP so only interested people get them.

Question of how would that affect balance between armors is then to be decided by ZoS. And acted upon.

olsborg

This is an excellent point to bring forth DDuke, theres alot of players that feel the same and you made an excellent post about it.

I was actually thinking something in these lines a few days ago. While you are dodging you take X% less dmg from dots. And while you are dodging any HoT will be increased by X% in effectiveness. Something like that. I also feel strongly about shuffle and other armor skills only being useable while wearing 5 pieces of that particular armor..aka 5 pieces of medium if you want to use Shuffle.

Baconlad

I agree with the thought that there should not be penalties to blocking alot, there should not be penalties to dodging alot, or sprinting alot.

They had blazing shield at game launch stop all regen while the shield lasted. But made it worthless to use in doing so.

Can you imagine if shields were balanced in this manner? Sorcs would be intantly useless if they had a cost stacking increase to shield use. If they made burst heals have cost stacking mechanic? BoL, templars main defense (since shields are almost too weak on LA magplars) would be useless.

But balancing magick defense to fit the cost stacking and regen blocking for stamina toons would be the equivalent. And lets get real. Those stamina cost increases hurt mag toons more so than stamina, mag toons who are forced to run more stamina or stamina regen.

I also agree with the idea of changing dodge roll mechanic only in 5 medium armor to give a small 10-20% damage recieved reduction. Would ensure more med users competitively wearing med armor.

And speed increase? No i dont think they need it. Only for sprinting is fine. I dont like the stam regen stopping during blocking or sprinting though.

At the end of the day, dodging is med users main defense, and should be encouraged. Not punished. Blocking is heavy armors main defense (or should be), and should not be punished. Shields and healing are magicks main defense and should not be punished (as it is not currently).

Also...make these changes and give shuffle ONLY to 5 medium armor users. Annulment to ONLY 5 light armor users. And fix heavy armor skill to give major protection/ minor vitality, last 10 seconds and give immunity for six seconds. One stamina morph, one magic morph. (Due to heavy armor being BOTH magick and stamina armors. Also increase the time it takes to get the spell damage/ weapon damage.

You will see a bunch more players going to med armor

Pastas

Dodge roll is a very powerfull defense and it needs to have its counters, but I think ZOS has gone too far and its is becoming less efective every patch.

If you are runnig medium and you get hit by Soul Asault you have waste all your stamina blocking and using heals in order to survive, and if you are figthing more than one player you will most probably die.

Cliff Razzers is the most unfair counter in my opinion, spameable skill with 28 m range and you cannot break the line of sigth, that damm birds turn corners. Magicka morf is hitting for 4.5K+ in BG LOL, it more than Suprise Attack for a ranged instant undodgeable skilll. Just stupid.

If Zenimax is not willing to change that counters at least I will like to see a similar treatment for shields and blocking. I have some STUPID ideas too:

Make Rapid Fire to Ignore shields, reduce the cost to 100 and not allow to teleport for 2 seconds.
Make Snipe to ignore block, and turn it into instant skill.
Make Berseker Strike to ignore block
Make Bitting Jabs to ignore Shield

olsborg

Pastas wrote: »

Cliff Razzers is the most unfair counter in my opinion, spameable skill with 28 m range and you cannot break the line of sigth, that damm birds turn corners. Magicka morf is hitting for 4.5K+ in BG LOL, it more than Suprise Attack for a ranged instant undodgeable skilll. Just stupid.

I agree with this

Maryal

olsborg wrote: »

This is an excellent point to bring forth DDuke, theres alot of players that feel the same and you made an excellent post about it.

I was actually thinking something in these lines a few days ago. While you are dodging you take X% less dmg from dots. And while you are dodging any HoT will be increased by X% in effectiveness. Something like that. I also feel strongly about shuffle and other armor skills only being useable while wearing 5 pieces of that particular armor..aka 5 pieces of medium if you want to use Shuffle.

When you suggest taking X% less damage from dots while dodge rolling, I suppose you mean something you could physically 'dodge roll through,' such as caltrops. I assume you don't mean to include single target DOTs because they usually occur as a secondary effect after you've already sustained the initial damage (i.e., poison arrow --> poison injection for example).

Since dodge rolling is a defensive mechanism, or a way to prevent damage, I can see your point regarding taking X% less damage while dodge rolling (through something you can physically dodge roll through).

As far as your suggestion that, while dodge rolling, any HoT will be increased by X%:
* Healing mitigates or lessens damage that has already been done .
* Mitigating damage is probably not something we should be expanding dodge roll to include.

Note: Before ZOS nerfed dodge rolling (by escalating the stamina cost for multiple dodge rolls), spamming it was a very effective defense, AND it was great to use offensively as well. Unfortunately, a lot of people complained about how OP it was, so ZOS nerfed it. I suppose it was OP, but it was heck-a-fun to do.

Narvuntien

Light armor has two things that Medium lacks if it is intended to just be the stam version of light armor.

The first is that light armor has Magic resist.... Why not give Medium armor Physical resist (and heavy both)?

The second is spell penetration, (why?), People working on theory crafting have noted that for Mag users Precise is now way better than Sharpened but for Stam users it is actually pretty close (it depends on the particular class and situations). Lover had nothing on Shadow or Thief for mag users but is still fine for Stam users. Add to that popular stam sets are all about pentration whille for Mag uses it is Spell damage (or crit) unless you are PVPing. This contributes to the overall weakness of Stam DPS compared to mag DPS in PVE.

There is the option to just make Medium armor light armors stamina Mirror.. with bonus extra defence to help up stam users without shields.

The Sneak bonus should be a bonus that is tacked onto the armor automatically and not cost skill points since it is straight up useless in dungeons. Or an additional bonus to one of the other points. that is often used on sets that have super situational bonuses.

Xvorg

Killset wrote: »

Medium armor is a relic. It's a throwback from the game as it was 2 years ago. The amount of damage being thrown around has rendered it obsolete. Not to mention how many things can no longer be countered. Soul Assault alone melts medium armor users and if you block it, chances are you won't have any stamina left to survive afterwards. Whether you buff medium or start nerfing a lot of abilities, I don't care, but something needs to be done.

Soul Assault has always melted MA users. Before the "buff", it was unblockable.

caperon

Narvuntien wrote: »

This contributes to the overall weakness of Stam DPS compared to mag DPS in PVE.
.

What weakness

Quesant

Maybe a 5 piece minor evasion bonus on dodge roll for the duration of the dodge fatigue debuff? i know its small but it might help a little.

GreenSoup2HoT

caperon wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

This contributes to the overall weakness of Stam DPS compared to mag DPS in PVE.
.

What weakness

Magicka Range dps Vs Stamina Melee dps

I guess the weakness is that stamina has to be so close.

melloni_aleb16_ESO

Medium armor can only be used by the NB for obvious reasons , all another classes in medium in PvP are free AP

Low damage mitigation ( i have full set gold in medium , full impen etc and Hunting curse hit for 6-8k lel , Crystal frag for 8k , valkyn skoria for 5-6 k , etc ect ) and Sustain just acceptable (Using though 1-2x stamina rec glyph on jewelry )

The cost increase of stamina skill ( see vigor) , nerf on a regen and a undodgeable skills ; It has worsened even more...

There is no reason for the current status of the game to use 5 medium ( pvp ) pieces if you are not a nb .

For me the only way to play a stamina char in solo or small group is still the HA ...Which however sucks

DDuke

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

This contributes to the overall weakness of Stam DPS compared to mag DPS in PVE.
.

What weakness

Magicka Range dps Vs Stamina Melee dps

I guess the weakness is that stamina has to be so close.

Nothing wrong with stamina DPS in PvE to be honest - I'm doing just fine (40-50k ST) in Trials & 35-40k in pledges etc on stamblade and there's still a lot of room for improvement.

The range adds a bit of a challenge as it's harder to avoid certain mechanics while dealing damage, but it's nothing too bad really.


Survivability (or the lack of it) is another matter though, and you can really notice it even in PvE.

DDuke

Alright, so... here's another fresh idea on how to buff medium armour's survivability.


Many of you have floated the idea of making Shuffle require 5x Medium Armor to use. But what if instead of doing that, we'd revamp Shuffle entirely?


Here's the deal: as it stands, Shuffle somewhat ironically benefits medium armor the least (now, before you say anything - I know it's used by probably over half the medium armor builds and is still a strong skill), as you're already dodging attacks more than light/heavy users with dodge roll, and Shuffle's 20% dodge chance is essentially useless during that period.

This makes light/heavy armor get more dodges/value out of the skill.


Now, what if Major Evasion was passively granted to Medium Armor instead?

Medium Armor

• Dexterity: Increases your Weapon Critical rating by 328 for each piece of Medium Armor equipped. Grants you Major Evasion for 1 seconds after you use Roll Dodge. Duration is increased by 1 second for each piece of Medium Armor worn.

This would give some value & purpose to dodge rolling, even when you're being hit by undodgeable things.


But that's not all. Since we've now removed Major Evasion from Shuffle, we can replace it with something else.

Something like an instant heal to along with the snare/root immunity.

This would reduce the dependency of 2H from which most stamina builds suffer (though you'd still have Rally as a valid burst heal alternative with heal over time/Major Brutality buff).

It would also make magicka NBs more unique as the only class with access to Major Evasion (without equipping medium armor or specific item set like Gossamer or Spectre's Eye).


Let me know what you think, I'll add this idea to the original post