Cyrodiil Zone Chat, zergs and Server Crashes

dotme

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

1)Good stuff. Cyrodiil needs improvements.
2)When you realize that ZOS cannot perform complicated changes without ruining the game you'll be less salty
3)I am expressing my opinion on how to fix lag issues in this messy Cyrodiil. Nobody can force a playstyle on others in a gaming forum.

lol - I'm not sure ZOS can even perform simple changes without ruining the game - I think we're in agreement there

Zone chat was a long time coming to console and it's often a vibrant and active part of the PvP experience. I would hate to see it removed, especially since I don't think the game would be "newbie-friendly" with no map markers and no zone chat. Folks would port into their campaign and... crickets. Cyrodiil is an awfully big place to be riding around on a level 0 horse with no idea how to find action - even more so when the campaign isn't fully populated. You could roam for hours and only encounter NPCs...

Anyway, we'll just agree to disagree on the zone chat/map marker changes and no hard feelings

GeorgeBlack

Turelus wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

I think removing the crosses on the map and the siege markers would have a way bigger impact on gameplay than removing zone chat. In fact keeping zone chat active wihle removing the previously mentionned would go a great length in improving the tactical aspect of Cyrodiil.

This guy gets it.
@Turelus

We all get what you're trying to achieve, I'm just telling you your method won't work as well as you think.

Etaniel's idea would have some impact and bring what's desired. It wouldn't solve zergs entirely but it would require more tactics and player vigilance which I'm behind.

Great. Can move forward from Etaniels idea and find a way to reduce zerging and increase strategy in AvAvA? Can we get @ZOS attention?

ZOS don't want to remove zerging though, not entirely.
Bomb trains they want to have counters to buy they didn't build Cyrodiil for solo and small gang only, in fact the idea was the opposite.

I've said this many times before but for me part of the skill of small gang and solo is to get out alive.
In EVE it was considered a win if you took on numbers, got kills and got out alone.
ESO it's only a win of you never die and kill everyone every single person you meet apparently.

All that said your idea to remove social chats isn't helpful for bringing new players into communities.
Sure you love the idea of clueless groupless newbies, I think that's bad for the game and unfair on new players.

1)Some times simple solutions are the easiest. Especially in a situation where previous attempts to fix things bring up more damage.
2)There is no hidden agenta. I don't run a meta build and I don't 1vX. I join random LFGs and then face a loading screen or crash. I don't force small scale on anyone.

Removing map indicators and /zone will promote critical thinking, autonomous groups and remove the means for big and many zergs at hot spots.

GeorgeBlack

dotme wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

1)Good stuff. Cyrodiil needs improvements.
2)When you realize that ZOS cannot perform complicated changes without ruining the game you'll be less salty
3)I am expressing my opinion on how to fix lag issues in this messy Cyrodiil. Nobody can force a playstyle on others in a gaming forum.

lol - I'm not sure ZOS can even perform simple changes without ruining the game - I think we're in agreement there

Zone chat was a long time coming to console and it's often a vibrant and active part of the PvP experience. I would hate to see it removed, especially since I don't think the game would be "newbie-friendly" with no map markers and no zone chat. Folks would port into their campaign and... crickets. Cyrodiil is an awfully big place to be riding around on a level 0 horse with no idea how to find action - even more so when the campaign isn't fully populated. You could roam for hours and only encounter NPCs...

Anyway, we'll just agree to disagree on the zone chat/map marker changes and no hard feelings

Agree to disagree and ima bump your thread for Cyro improvements. As long as @zos improves cyro experience.

Flaminir

Whilst I'm all behind any ideas to improve the game, this is a total non-starter & will never happen!

Why you ask?

Well amongst 100 other reasons, Its an MMO... a SOCIAL game.... ZoS will never in a million years remove the social interaction from the part of the game that requires communication the most.

Whilst the idea is well intentioned, it will never happen.

You have as much chance of getting this in as persuading ZoS to remove Sweetrolls from the world....

P.S. Sweetrolls are life.

Potenza

OP - Forcing people to play a certain way is not going to work.

The game objectives and rules have to change in a manner that makes it beneficial for the player to play a certain way.

GeorgeBlack

I hate that I can't chat with AD and DC in zone while in Cyro. Not being able to chst with random EP would just as bad.

I will update the topic with the idea of removing map indicators.

Ghostbane

Zone chat is just as beneficial for spreading out and organizing a strategic play as much as it is at fault for creating zergs I'm afraid.

Another problem that sometimes rears its head in the forums (and often zone chat) is "lfg, no groups running today?" Quite a large portion of the game is built of pickup groups, zone chat is the lobby to cater for that. And it works. I can safely say, no one here wants another group finder mechanic.

As for map markers, I see no argument to have them removed.

ChandraNalaar

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Opening another topic for discussion in an attempt to improve AvAvA. The current state of the main PvP aspect of the game is downtime map capping and toon switching for AP farming.
I though that AvAvA meant the strongest, smartest alliance will be the victor. Nope.
Zergs are very unpleasant but they are the way to take over the map.

I would like to suggest a way in order for organized PvP guilds to play strategically in Cyrodiil, spread the fight across all keeps and make sieging, scouting and ganging the way to win Campaigns.

■■■TOPIC UPDATE■■■
After lengthy discussions it seems that a better idea would be to remove Map Icons in order to avoid zerg gathering at hotspots
■■■TOPIC UPDATE■■■

Remove Zone chat from Cyrodiil. No more LFG, no more massive zergs gathering at occuring hot spots.

Eso PvPrs should join PvP guilds and fight for their alliance, using tactics and organizations.

Each alliance has strong groups. Each alliance has strong leaders.
However zone chat creates zerging. No zone chat would mean smaller smarter groups fighting across Cyrodiil.
I just hope that there won't be LFG guilds forming, in order to replace Cyrodiil Zone chat. Personally I wouldn't join such a guild using 1/5 slots for pug Cyro LFG

Btw.. those of you that go in Cyro solo are either killing pugs, or form pugs that get killed by AP farmers, so zone chat ain't much of use to you.


REMOVE ZONE CHAT FROM CYRODIIL FOR LESS ZERGS, MORE SIEGE ACROSS THE MAP.
At least for Vivec

@Etaniel suggested removing map siege/fight indicators which would help.

This is actually an interesting idea; I'm not saying it would work simply because players will always find ways around the boundaries put in place, but it's a good suggestion. I wouldn't mind removing the map icons for the crossed swords that are always at the Chalman gate and the Alessia bridge. I think another reason why so much of Cyrodiil is zerg v zerg now is because, at least in Vivec on PC NA, it's the only cp campaign left which means everybody who wants to use their cp that they put in the effort to earn is in there. Almalexia is always low population now with the changes, and Vivec is always full.

ChandraNalaar

Turelus wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

I think removing the crosses on the map and the siege markers would have a way bigger impact on gameplay than removing zone chat. In fact keeping zone chat active wihle removing the previously mentionned would go a great length in improving the tactical aspect of Cyrodiil.

This guy gets it.
@Turelus

We all get what you're trying to achieve, I'm just telling you your method won't work as well as you think.

Etaniel's idea would have some impact and bring what's desired. It wouldn't solve zergs entirely but it would require more tactics and player vigilance which I'm behind.

Great. Can move forward from Etaniels idea and find a way to reduce zerging and increase strategy in AvAvA? Can we get @ZOS attention?

ZOS don't want to remove zerging though, not entirely.
Bomb trains they want to have counters to buy they didn't build Cyrodiil for solo and small gang only, in fact the idea was the opposite.

I've said this many times before but for me part of the skill of small gang and solo is to get out alive.
In EVE it was considered a win if you took on numbers, got kills and got out alone.
ESO it's only a win of you never die and kill everyone every single person you meet apparently.

All that said your idea to remove social chats isn't helpful for bringing new players into communities.
Sure you love the idea of clueless groupless newbies, I think that's bad for the game and unfair on new players.

^^This. I love small groups because I think it requires more coordination and actual skill than just 20 people hitting EoTS and running through everybody; my favorite Cyrodiil moments are usually when I'm small grouping around the map looking for actual fights not zerg v zerg v zerg fights that don't do much.

GeorgeBlack

In addition I think that removing the number of siege weapons in the Under Siege Icons woulf prevent massive numbers of players flooding towards that castle.
Use scouts. Use gangers. Break the zergs.

IcyDeadPeople

The problem is not too many uncoordinated players following the crossed swords and getting into battles. At least we have a chance when we are solo or small group fighting against enemies who are not in a guild group, no voice chat, etc.

For me the problem is fighting against the big zerg guilds using voice chat. This is part of the game of course, but if you keep getting focus fired down by guild group destro ulti / cliff racer train over and over it can be discouraging for anyone.

From my perspective, it's not discouraging at all to run into random ungrouped players who are not coordinating in some huge voice chat group. These kind of battles are more fun. At least I have some chance to survive.

kuro-dono

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

The problem is not too many uncoordinated players wandering around and getting into battles. At least we have a chance when we are solo or small group fighting against enemies who are not in a guild group, no voice chat, etc.

For me the problem is fighting against the big zerg guilds using voice chat. This is part of the game of course, but if you keep getting focus fired down by guild group destro ulti / cliff racer train over and over it can be discouraging.

From my perspective, it's not discouraging at all to run into random ungrouped players who are not coordinating in some huge voice chat group. These kind of battles are more fun. At least I have some chance to survive.

problem is, that ppl play on competive level claiming that they need to do that to have chance vs "REST OF THE WORLD"
so. we end up watching how these so called "competively" playing groups end up farming scrubs 24/7 7 day a week, and the story is always the same.

EDIT PS: similarly, ppl do variety of other activities that in other peoples mind get judged>

night capping when other populations low, or 1-3 man gankers who kill and disappear, very annoying playstyles and its all supposed to be up to players to sort out.

then there is ppl who play in your alliance who grief by picking scrolls and troll with. ( certain alliance guild leader did this when my alliance was assaulting their temple to pick their scroll.

ITS ALL ABOUT GRIEFING AND TROLLING. i have said it soooo damn many times. human kind by nature is evil/neutral evil.

Salix_alba

I'm sorry but no. and I mean this with all respect to your issue but what am I gonna read while riding from one end of Cyrodiil to the other when collecting Cyrodiil maps?

Sallington

leeux

Removing zone chat from Cyrodiil would screw solo people and give MORE control to big guilds that ALREADY control and overwhelm the map as they please. IMO, is the worst idea ever...

EDIT: And people zerg because this is an AvAvA game, where the fights is about moving the map and winning the campaign... no way around that, even if people would want to shoehorn into it a "small scale" fighting.

Crispen_Longbow

1. Remove forward camps.
   Stop the endless zombie hordes. This will make it so battles end sooner and we would see less potating because the potatos know they have a camp they can spawn in.
   
   
   
2. Death Sickness
   Death should be something you try and avoid. Once you die you are infected with a rez sickness for X amount of time that reduce your abilitites by x amount.
   
3. Spread out fights
   Incentivize people to spread out and Hold objectives . In the map below you can see the natural choke points would be between SEJ - BRK and Ales - Bleakers. Looking at the map that is where you would find most of the players on the map.
   
   To incentivize different behavior and make hitting other objectives more appealing to the masses. I would purpose we increase how much the back targets are worth. You gain more AP for capturing and holding the objective. So in the map below you could capture Farragut and if you hold it, say for 30 minutes, everyone in the area that is holding the keep splits the AP if they successfully hold the resource for the allotted time.
   
   Any time a keep or resource is captured it starts building up AP. The longer it goes without being flipped, the larger the base AP pool gets. I would also add a multiplier based on population. So let’s say that EP is poplocked and DC only has 2 bar. Any objective that is taken from EP would have a higher growth rate for AP. This would also incentivize people to bring smaller groups to objectives and hold them to maximize AP gain as it's split among all that are there defending.
   
   You could also start a new timer so that it will incentivize people to come take it back for say half the AP.
   
   
   

Karivaa

On Xbox, we never had zone chat and still had lag and zergs lol. Also, I have noticed that ad has the most lfgs I have ever seen, at least in Vivec.

Drummerx04

Etaniel wrote: »

I think removing the crosses on the map and the siege markers would have a way bigger impact on gameplay than removing zone chat. In fact keeping zone chat active wihle removing the previously mentionned would go a great length in improving the tactical aspect of Cyrodiil.

This makes a lot more sense than zone chat removal, but I guess zone chat removal would reduce how readily pugs could scout walls for the faction.

But the zerging problem is a little more challenging than just "everyone follows zone chat or just wants a quick fight or needs to l2p small man." Having done same small man/solo play, I can pretty definitively say that the biggest problem is making your own fights that you have a slight chance of winning. If I go well out of the way of the faction stack and take Kingscrest lumbermill, from that point there are several very common paths that gameplay takes from there.

For this list, "me" refers to myself solo or in a small group (2-4)

1. No one shows up to fight me for 20 minutes
2. A super tank shows up and trolls me, he can mostly be ignored, but can cause problems when more start showing up
3. A couple average/bad pugs roll in and get steam rolled as more and more start to come in.
4. Pact Militia steam rolls me with 20+ people and siege weapons
5. One of the really good small man groups from EP shows up and clears us out. This is fairly common avenue. If anyone in my small man goes down, the loss is pretty greatly felt. In a 4v4 for instance, losing one or two players is a pretty big deal especially when they focus targets. I'm an above average player, but I can't fend off infinite gap close tremor+viper+selene+resource poisons+5 dots+ and a continuous barrage of CC's on my out

Bottom line, zerging is here to stay and honestly, the best thing we can do against zerging right now... If you see 5+ people in front of you chasing down that one last guy... just let them do it. Take a break, put your weapon away, admire all the enemy corpses you are walking over, try the new /kissthis emote. Just fixing that mentality of chasing 1-2 people with a full raid half way across cyrodiil will do wonders for the atmosphere in cyro.

DeadlyRecluse

There have been a lot of ideas for improving cyrodiil.

This is probably the worst one.

TragedyOA

dotme wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Would it achieve reduction of players forming LFGs and ridding to hotspots?
Removing the Icons seems like a better idea.

I'm sorry but I think the idea is a non-starter. You make so many assumptions with no evidence at all for them. Maybe you need your own campaign. We already have "No CP" campaigns, so how about a "No Clue" campaign?

New players can join, and look at a visually dead map with no clue on where to go, how to play... sounds like a recipe for PvP abandonment to me.

Zone chat makes the campaign come alive. Yes, it's salty at times but alliance communication is a way to form friendships and build teams. It's an alliance war - it's supposed to have large battles. Small scale can be found in IC and BGs.

This.

DemonDruaga

Miruku wrote: »

Prootch will have a shattering *** because of this.
And big boss would cry and uninstall.

Haha

Ackwalan

You can't stop people from zerging up by changing the rule set. Zergs are not very mobile, if they are running the Aleswell/Bleakers/Chal path, go to the other side. If the are running the Aless/Sej/BRK path, go to the other side.

Cadbury

I got it. Disable the map while in Cyrodiil

olivesforge

Crispen_Longbow wrote: »

1. Death Sickness
   Death should be something you try and avoid. Once you die you are infected with a rez sickness for X amount of time that reduce your abilitites by x amount.
   
2. Spread out fights
   Incentivize people to spread out and Hold objectives . In the map below you can see the natural choke points would be between SEJ - BRK and Ales - Bleakers. Looking at the map that is where you would find most of the players on the map.
   
   To incentivize different behavior and make hitting other objectives more appealing to the masses. I would purpose we increase how much the back targets are worth. You gain more AP for capturing and holding the objective. So in the map below you could capture Farragut and if you hold it, say for 30 minutes, everyone in the area that is holding the keep splits the AP if they successfully hold the resource for the allotted time.
   
   Any time a keep or resource is captured it starts building up AP. The longer it goes without being flipped, the larger the base AP pool gets. I would also add a multiplier based on population. So let’s say that EP is poplocked and DC only has 2 bar. Any objective that is taken from EP would have a higher growth rate for AP. This would also incentivize people to bring smaller groups to objectives and hold them to maximize AP gain as it's split among all that are there defending.
   
   You could also start a new timer so that it will incentivize people to come take it back for say half the AP.

^^^ Here is your actual answer. The only way to decrease zerging is to open-up the map. Adding flags to towns helps somewhat, and should be expanded to Chorrol and Cheydinhal. But adding an "occupation" score - where certain strategic objectives outside of keeps and outposts also count towards score - would help a lot. I'm thinking along Ultimate General's tabletop-derived system where every hill and defensive position on the map is worth a certain amount.

As far as the suggestions OP has made, they would do nothing to effect new current comms in Vivec for AD, who use private channels for coordination.

Publius_Scipio

You will not do away with zergs in open world PvP with hundreds on the same map. Not going to happen. Any suggestion otherwise is very fake news.

There is dueling for your 1v1 and now battlegrounds for your small man close quarters combat.

And quite frankly, I don't care about the zergs or being "zerged down". The only issue for me is lag/performance degradation from time to time. Unfortunately the lag does seem a bit worse than it has been in a good while in the single CP enabled campaign post Morrowind.

NACtron

As a raid lead I read and use zone chat to figure out where other guilds are so I'm not always around other guilds as much as can be avoided. Sometimes there is only one or two good fights on the map and you can't avoid running into other guilds but zone chat helps with that problem.

While there is salt and toxic players the vast amount of zone chat chatter is cyro raid info about where enemy players are, where the fight is, how the fight is going etc when I'm online. If I did not have that info I would end up in much more fights stacked with the rest of my faction than I already end up doing.

Irylia

My suggestion:

SCRAP CURRENT QUEST BOARDS and instead turn them into (Max group sizes vary per quest type 4-12)

1. Capture the point (Ex. Hold cheydinhal church for x minutes, defend the top of a broken down tower)
2. Escort cargo from A to B (Follow a merchant wagon from brindle to drakelowe)
3. A Quest board where you can accept a mission to stop an enemy faction from completing #1 or 2.

Of course all of these would be on the unused terrain on the map. Bottom left/right Top left/right etc.
Some pretty unique terrain out in those parts that could play a role in developing these small scale quests.

REWARD FOR COMPLETION:

For completing a quest you could receive (for x minutes) reduced siege merchant costs for your alliance in one keep, increase the hp/dmg of guards in a keep, make walls more durable against enemy siege. This could play a contribution towards your alliances success at a keep attack/defense.

The flip side of that is if you successfully prevent an enemy faction from completing their quest (killing the merchant + alliance defending cargo, capture the point for yourself, etc) you could make an enemy keeps walls susceptible to siege damage, reduce guard level, or increase cost of siege merchant supplies. (for x minutes)

BROKEN SYSTEM:

This could be abused where a zerg goes to a quest meant for 6 people but if possible the system could detect the amount of players from an alliance nearby the cargo/point and then "fail" that alliance from participating in the quest event. It isn't perfect but it's an idea to work on.

This should allow players to spread around the map slightly and give smaller groups more of a chance to contribute because it can enable small scale fights that they may enjoy, at the very least they would a group of 6 from both other factions who accepted the quest to stop them. This system may not work 100% of the time as quests may not be accepted and a group may walk an entire convoy length without seeing the enemy but it would still spread players out hopefully.

That's a bare bone example/draft of an idea I can expand more.

disintegr8

I am all for improving Cyrodiil but this thread sounds like a push for people in guilds to have it all for themselves. I also don't like text chat, is is full of bitching and garbage and people from the same alliance abusing each other.

Removing text chat and map markers simply stops anyone from knowing where the fights are at, so you can't go defend a keep, or help an attack. So what if there are 30 other people there doing the same thing - oh, must be a zerg after easy AP instead of 30 alliance members who care for the greater cause.

We hate zergs, so don't allow zergs. We hate zergs, so don't allow solo players to go there in case they get together and become a zerg. Don't allow solo's or people in small groups because they only give better players easy AP.

I think they need to increase the size of Cyrodiil so that it takes more than 10 minutes to get from one end of the map to the other on horseback or grabbing a scroll. Increase the number of keeps, towns, outposts, so that 2 or 3 groups can't take the whole map.

GeorgeBlack

Increasing the actuall size of Cyro is a good idea.
Adding new locations won't do much (bruma, cropsford) since people will still follow the map indications and go to ADvDC DCvEP EPvAD hotspots.

People say new players won't know what to do without Icons and chat. Well new players don't know about animation cancelling, CP jumping points, metas, proc sets. They learn.
People say that there won't be organization without a chat.
There must be Cyrodiil guilds just as there are Trading and PvE guilds.
Remember when there was no recruiting for Trials on /zone? Ye join a guild.

We can maintain /zone Icons at under 50 campaign and any lowly populater campain (consoles? No CP? 7 days?) but for 30 Day Standard I think that it is a good idea to promote organization within guilds rather than LFGs and "30 AD AT NIKEL" shouts, that promote bottlenecking and mindless zerg gathering at hotspots that cause lags and crashes (ZOS cannot improve the servers. Look for other solutions)

I'm pretty sure that when the devs were creating the game they didnt intent for 100 people in Chalman, 100 people in Alessia and 100 in Roebeck.

When you think of the Cyrodiil Quests (that offer ridiculous rewards btw.....) you can imagine the devs creating a Cyro in which one group would go to that castle, another would attempt scroll theft and another would attack the resources of another castle-> leading to a new siege.

With zone chat and map indicators this will never be achieved. It will always be who has the biggest population and makes more 24man groups that zerg.

I believe that Cyrodiil players, organized in PvP guilds, whose members are closely connected to each other will form autonomous groups of any size and will pursue objectives of their own such as defending a castle while attacking an outpost, going deep in enemy territory and starting a siege, scouting for enemies or ambushing enemies on the match.

I find it astonishing that most users here do not dare picture such things possible achieved by real PvP guilds of 20-50 closelly connected membees with autonomous Cyro groups in the absence of zone chat/map indicators, yet cling to illusions that ZOS will improve server capabilities and there will be no more crashes from zerging in hotspots.

Kram8ion

Text chat is half of your entertainment if your a gankblade and used in conjunction if your a good group leader it's communication a core mechanic imo
Being forced to join guilds is a bit off the mark honesty