5 PVP QOL Adjustments

Cinbri

I agree on block changes. We must make Xv1 more viable in this game.

NBrookus

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think there is too great of a prejudice against block on these forums. The vast majority of players run DPS oriented builds. It has been nerfed time and again to the point where it is prohibitively expensive for people who do not abuse block.
...
What I would rather do is for ZoS to actually return the class defensive features that were taken away from us such as Cinderstorm, Blinding Flashes, etc. That discourages block without nerfing it.

This forum is anti-mitigation in general. Anti-healing, anti-block, anti-dodge, anti-shields, anti-cloak. Then the forum will complain about proc sets, destro ult and permafrost while insisting they have to use it because of all those nasty healers and defensive builds... and are perplexed when more people put on heavy armor in response.

Satiar

Well said, Joy, Nbrooks. With the sheer number of poisons, debuffs, proc sets and burst combos available, it astonishes me people still complain about ppl not dying.

1vX isn't something you can bring back because it never left. 1vX was always just farming terrible, underleveled or undergeared players. You can still do that if you can find them.

Glory

Asgari wrote: »

Blocking

Proc Sets

Dynamic Ult Gen (Reformed)

Counter Play

Cost Increase Poisons

I agree with your suggestions for Dynamic Ult Gen, Counter Play, Increase poisons. If they aren't changed in the way you suggested, they should still be changed.

I agree with the need to change proc sets, but I don't think changing them to a DoT is the correct change. It will provide massive benefits to some (purify/purge accessibility) while little to some (imagine having a bunch of procc'ed and unblockable damage coming in from 5 players).

I don't agree with blocking changes. I don't think I've seen any builds that I have considered effective that are able to block excessively. If someone is holding block, they are either getting their stam burned or they are extremely ineffective at doing anything but blocking. (Not counting S&B ult as that is a different conversation).

There is this notion that if someone is not getting instantly killed because they know that blocking is effective when they are being wailed one by 4+ stamina classes. I hear a lot of complaints about someone being too tanky because they don't fall over instantly to meta Tremor/Viper/Selene/Oblivion, but this game really should be about slightly more drawn out fights with resource management being a larger component than "my wrecking blow also has a poison and 3 proc's attached to it so you're dead."

NeillMcAttack

I don't think that perma blocking is a problem per-se. I feel it's the lack of a trade off for using a sword and board that seems unbalanced. Straight up block tanks are fine. They are there to de-buff etc. But when all the most effective damage dealers in PvP besides stam blades and magSorcs are running S&B, something just feels off.

Sadly this issue stems mainly from the fact that the combat mechanics are what they are!! Blocking being the best means of canceling animations, means that many people actually block many attacks in a fight without actually meaning to do so. I was dueling a mate recently enough, (playing on MagBlade) I swapped out fear for destro clench as a better single target damage and disable, he was playing on a stamblade meaning my disable was important as I could get bursted quite handidly. Anyway, I accused him of using immovable pots to which he replied he wasn't. Turned out he was blocking my disable just through casual block canceling. It's really a major flaw in the PvP combat, it's not reactionary, it's actually pure fluke the cast majority of the time. This is the main issue with block tanks IMO.

Combining this with the cost reduction for those blocks that aren't even intentional most the time. Makes S&B highly imbalanced in PvP due to there not being any real trade off. What is it? 2500 penetration and about 100-200 weapon and spell damage. To gain what? An extra set piece, an extra trait, more stats and reduced block cost. I even think there is more. It just isn't balanced with the other weapons. IMO of course.

CatchMeTrolling

The blocking change would be ridiculous , every block nerf hurts people who don't perma block more than the people that do.

Minalan

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think there is too great of a prejudice against block on these forums. The vast majority of players run DPS oriented builds. It has been nerfed time and again to the point where it is prohibitively expensive for people who do not abuse block.

As it is right now there are indeed still "perma-blockers," but I do not find these builds offensively threatening because block builds must invest some of their damage potential to do this.

What I would rather do is for ZoS to actually return the class defensive features that were taken away from us such as Cinderstorm, Blinding Flashes, etc. That discourages block without nerfing it.

The issue is the lack of counterplay, not enough skills go through it. Unless you want to stack oblivion damage enchants and knight slayer...

There are two ways to solve this issue that bothers you and others:

1. You can continue the pattern of the past two years and nerf everything and anything you find objectionable or unsatitfying
2. You can offer people alternatives to those play-styles that you find so bothersome.

I personally feel option #2 is the way to go and anyone who advocates #1 acts hypocritically when they complain about ZoS's nerfs.

I'm not for nerfing block mitigation at all, just the cost needs to be looked at. If it costs a sorc 10K Magicka for a shield stack that gets vaporized in one combo from stealth, how much does is cost someone else to block nearly all of the damage from the same opener?

Roll dodge and streak both have a progressively increasing cost every time they're used. What does it cost to scotch-tape down your right mouse button? Educate me here, because I haven't tried a block-heavy armor-sturdy-impregnable build since Morrowind dropped. I've been meaning to, but no time.

Lastly... I'm perfectly okay with a block defense being a direct counter to my high DPS burst build, but should they be able to stand in active siege circles while tanking 8 different DPS players? It's a LITTLE over the top. Come on guys... shouldn't that like, cost too much to pull off?

Minalan

LeifErickson wrote: »

How are magplars and magdks supposed to mitigate damage without blocking? They can't roll dodge effectively like medium armor builds can, they have no where near enough hots to rely on those, they can't use shields anywhere near as effective as sorcs can. (And I think people don't realize that the reason these shields are so good on sorcs is because they also have mobility too. A shield can't hold up against multiple attackers so they use mobility to even the odds.) Burst heals (lol they don't even heal for that much though) are all these two specs have. You cannot be effective with just burst heals alone because burst heals don't give you a chance to go on the offensive.

So what is so wrong with the way block is right now? If you build for blocking, then you will have less damage. Are you guys saying that you are losing to block tanks 1v1? The only reason I can think of that would make you want to nerf block MORE is that you are xv1ing these block builds. All the proposed change will do is making blocking better in zergs and worse in solo play. I didn't realize that this is what the community wanted, to nerf even more the people who are outnumbered in a fight.

Asgari wrote: »

Blocking

• Add a disease [t]o blocking that after 3 seconds on consistent block being held that for every additional second your healing done is reduced by 10% so in theory after 10 seconds of blocking you would do 0% healing done but still be able to receive healing. Perma blocking is still an issue in pvp.

This change solves nothing to nerf zergs because zerg blockers can get heals from somewhere else. However, this change nerfs solo players who use block because they can't outsource their heals. How is this what people want? I mean, unless people think magplars and magdks are top tier for solo play (and if you think that then you are wrong), I can't see why block needs to be nerfed more.

So the only logical reason for nerfing block would be that it is performing too well in an xvx fight. I, however, have yet to see this be true. Either it's a l2p issue on the people who think block is too strong or I have been blessed with not witnessing the strength of these perma block builds.

And to the point of that block doesn't have many counters, I disagree. For one, block has been made necessary by everyone because of soul assault among other things, but block has plenty of counters. I'm just going to list off the things that kill me the most when I am playing on a "block" build: fear, curse, implosion, oblivion enchant (this especially hurts in mist form), fear, dots and especially bleeds and especially especially ground dots and follow the caster dots (I typically see about 3 different poison injections for 7k+ on my recaps not to mention all the other dots on me), fear, defiles, power of the light and purifying light, roots kinda suck, did I mention fear?

But like I said, I would like to know more about why and when these perma blockers are so over the top. The only thing I can think of is heal bots. However, heal bots are broken for a completely different reason (and I don't even think they perma block either). Come to think of it, basically nothing perma blocks except full block tanks which are completely worthless.

Blanket nerfing things like block doesn't ever solve the problem, it only makes the non problem builds trash (such as the proc set change). If block continues to get nerfed, then the average mdk and magplar that do nothing wrong will get hit the hardest.

But yes, I think shield ult and resto ult are overpowered. Those should definitely be adjusted.

Leif, block is the only mitigation not affected by battle spirit, time limits, or progressively increasing costs.

All damage Shields are halved under BS.

Dodge roll and streak have cost increases attached.

Cloak has a four second second timer on it. Cast it and a few seconds later, pop goes the weasel. yoy also don't get a damage bonus while hidden anymore under BS.

All damage done is halved under BS.

I'm fine with all that, but what does block get under battle spirit? Maybe it could cost just a tad more when under BS?

NBrookus

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think there is too great of a prejudice against block on these forums. The vast majority of players run DPS oriented builds. It has been nerfed time and again to the point where it is prohibitively expensive for people who do not abuse block.

As it is right now there are indeed still "perma-blockers," but I do not find these builds offensively threatening because block builds must invest some of their damage potential to do this.

What I would rather do is for ZoS to actually return the class defensive features that were taken away from us such as Cinderstorm, Blinding Flashes, etc. That discourages block without nerfing it.

The issue is the lack of counterplay, not enough skills go through it. Unless you want to stack oblivion damage enchants and knight slayer...

There are two ways to solve this issue that bothers you and others:

1. You can continue the pattern of the past two years and nerf everything and anything you find objectionable or unsatitfying
2. You can offer people alternatives to those play-styles that you find so bothersome.

I personally feel option #2 is the way to go and anyone who advocates #1 acts hypocritically when they complain about ZoS's nerfs.

I'm not for nerfing block mitigation at all, just the cost needs to be looked at. If it costs a sorc 10K Magicka for a shield stack that gets vaporized in one combo from stealth, how much does is cost someone else to block nearly all of the damage from the same opener?

Roll dodge and streak both have a progressively increasing cost every time they're used. What does it cost to scotch-tape down your right mouse button? Educate me here, because I haven't tried a block-heavy armor-sturdy-impregnable build since Morrowind dropped. I've been meaning to, but no time.

Lastly... I'm perfectly okay with a block defense being a direct counter to my high DPS burst build, but should they be able to stand in active siege circles while tanking 8 different DPS players? It's a LITTLE over the top. Come on guys... shouldn't that like, cost too much to pull off?

On a heavy block cost reduction build, I spend 1k in stamina every .5 seconds. And I'm a mag DK. So in a 1v1, I'd I spend more in stam blocking than you do in shielding every 6 seconds. That does not sound unreasonable to me. Meanwhile I can't block your curse and if I'm permablocking I'm not doing much damage to to a sorc -- provided I can get close enough to a sorc to do damage anyway, which if I can, that sorc sucks.

Drop your shields tho and I'm going to leap you for 15k. Because no, I can't tank 8 players while standing in siege, and I can think of only 1 DK that can, and he's a stam DK that has zero damage.

LeifErickson

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think there is too great of a prejudice against block on these forums. The vast majority of players run DPS oriented builds. It has been nerfed time and again to the point where it is prohibitively expensive for people who do not abuse block.

As it is right now there are indeed still "perma-blockers," but I do not find these builds offensively threatening because block builds must invest some of their damage potential to do this.

What I would rather do is for ZoS to actually return the class defensive features that were taken away from us such as Cinderstorm, Blinding Flashes, etc. That discourages block without nerfing it.

The issue is the lack of counterplay, not enough skills go through it. Unless you want to stack oblivion damage enchants and knight slayer...

There are two ways to solve this issue that bothers you and others:

1. You can continue the pattern of the past two years and nerf everything and anything you find objectionable or unsatitfying
2. You can offer people alternatives to those play-styles that you find so bothersome.

I personally feel option #2 is the way to go and anyone who advocates #1 acts hypocritically when they complain about ZoS's nerfs.

I'm not for nerfing block mitigation at all, just the cost needs to be looked at. If it costs a sorc 10K Magicka for a shield stack that gets vaporized in one combo from stealth, how much does is cost someone else to block nearly all of the damage from the same opener?

Roll dodge and streak both have a progressively increasing cost every time they're used. What does it cost to scotch-tape down your right mouse button? Educate me here, because I haven't tried a block-heavy armor-sturdy-impregnable build since Morrowind dropped. I've been meaning to, but no time.

Lastly... I'm perfectly okay with a block defense being a direct counter to my high DPS burst build, but should they be able to stand in active siege circles while tanking 8 different DPS players? It's a LITTLE over the top. Come on guys... shouldn't that like, cost too much to pull off?

The difference is that sorcs have mobility and block builds don't. It doesn't matter if your shield can go down quick because you can make a getaway that a magplar and mdk can never do. Builds with no mobility need a way to hold their ground - block. Also 10k is a serious over exaggeration.

And even if the scenario you said was true, who cares because that player literally can do nothing but that.

I have played every spec in this game except Warden. I know both the sorc and the block build's perspective since I have been on both sides of the perspective. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with block right now.

Valencer

Asgari wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Blocking is still really really potent for heavy armour builds stacking Sturdy. And with the new CP spreading some CP into Shadow Ward isnt very costly anymore either.

The only thing thats changed is they made block very very VERY punishing for non-heavy builds that don't build for prolonged blocking. Get Soul Assaulted on a medium armour build and then come back and tell me block needs further blanket nerfs.

I addressed both of your concerns in my OP. SA needs to be bashable, and holding block for 3 seconds with what i proposed is basically major defile and it will go away once you let go of block. it wouldnt be a persistent debuff.

I play mag and stam in light medium and heavy on all classes. I understand what is strong and what isnt. But currently with having reduced cost gone you can just take those extra free points and stack into block cost reduction cp along with some sturdy and you are blocking like last patch. nothing really changed. It only changed for light armor users for the most part who block an attack or two too avoid being CC.

I just dont see the point. Block isn't overtuned on light and medium armour builds at all, so why blanket nerf it for everyone?

More appropriate way of going forward would be something like addressing the huge synergy between block and the Consitution heavy armour passive.

Asgari

Valencer wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Blocking is still really really potent for heavy armour builds stacking Sturdy. And with the new CP spreading some CP into Shadow Ward isnt very costly anymore either.

The only thing thats changed is they made block very very VERY punishing for non-heavy builds that don't build for prolonged blocking. Get Soul Assaulted on a medium armour build and then come back and tell me block needs further blanket nerfs.

I addressed both of your concerns in my OP. SA needs to be bashable, and holding block for 3 seconds with what i proposed is basically major defile and it will go away once you let go of block. it wouldnt be a persistent debuff.

I play mag and stam in light medium and heavy on all classes. I understand what is strong and what isnt. But currently with having reduced cost gone you can just take those extra free points and stack into block cost reduction cp along with some sturdy and you are blocking like last patch. nothing really changed. It only changed for light armor users for the most part who block an attack or two too avoid being CC.

I just dont see the point. Block isn't overtuned on light and medium armour builds at all, so why blanket nerf it for everyone?

More appropriate way of going forward would be something like addressing the huge synergy between block and the Consitution heavy armour passive.

It wouldn't be a blanket nerf for everyone. It wouldn't have to be an instant debuff. Couldn't be after X seconds it would slowly start to debuff. Going S&B has no negatives. You have tons of mitigation, great ult, lots of damage, stun, heal debuff.

But the other damage weapons have none of that. S&B is the strongest of the weapon skill lines if you remove destro ult from the equation.

Reduce the need for block and buff the less mobile classes to not be forced into a constant blocking playstyle.

I may not have fully worded the original post but it's balanced if you adjust the less mobile classes.

BraidasNM

NBrookus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think there is too great of a prejudice against block on these forums. The vast majority of players run DPS oriented builds. It has been nerfed time and again to the point where it is prohibitively expensive for people who do not abuse block.
...
What I would rather do is for ZoS to actually return the class defensive features that were taken away from us such as Cinderstorm, Blinding Flashes, etc. That discourages block without nerfing it.

This forum is anti-mitigation in general. Anti-healing, anti-block, anti-dodge, anti-shields, anti-cloak. Then the forum will complain about proc sets, destro ult and permafrost while insisting they have to use it because of all those nasty healers and defensive builds... and are perplexed when more people put on heavy armor in response.

From reading the forums and in-game tells it seems people with high damage setups are usually the ragiest.

I think block is fine at this point, procs def need a nerf, and I've lost all hope for any return of dynamic ult.

Anne_Firehawk

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think there is too great of a prejudice against block on these forums. The vast majority of players run DPS oriented builds. It has been nerfed time and again to the point where it is prohibitively expensive for people who do not abuse block.

As it is right now there are indeed still "perma-blockers," but I do not find these builds offensively threatening because block builds must invest some of their damage potential to do this.

What I would rather do is for ZoS to actually return the class defensive features that were taken away from us such as Cinderstorm, Blinding Flashes, etc. That discourages block without nerfing it.

The issue is the lack of counterplay, not enough skills go through it. Unless you want to stack oblivion damage enchants and knight slayer...

There are two ways to solve this issue that bothers you and others:

1. You can continue the pattern of the past two years and nerf everything and anything you find objectionable or unsatitfying
2. You can offer people alternatives to those play-styles that you find so bothersome.

I personally feel option #2 is the way to go and anyone who advocates #1 acts hypocritically when they complain about ZoS's nerfs.

I'm not for nerfing block mitigation at all, just the cost needs to be looked at. If it costs a sorc 10K Magicka for a shield stack that gets vaporized in one combo from stealth, how much does is cost someone else to block nearly all of the damage from the same opener?

And how *** much does it cost to get through those shields for a freaking magDK, magplar or even a magblade? Seriously stop crying.

Asgari

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think there is too great of a prejudice against block on these forums. The vast majority of players run DPS oriented builds. It has been nerfed time and again to the point where it is prohibitively expensive for people who do not abuse block.

As it is right now there are indeed still "perma-blockers," but I do not find these builds offensively threatening because block builds must invest some of their damage potential to do this.

What I would rather do is for ZoS to actually return the class defensive features that were taken away from us such as Cinderstorm, Blinding Flashes, etc. That discourages block without nerfing it.

The issue is the lack of counterplay, not enough skills go through it. Unless you want to stack oblivion damage enchants and knight slayer...

There are two ways to solve this issue that bothers you and others:

1. You can continue the pattern of the past two years and nerf everything and anything you find objectionable or unsatitfying
2. You can offer people alternatives to those play-styles that you find so bothersome.

I personally feel option #2 is the way to go and anyone who advocates #1 acts hypocritically when they complain about ZoS's nerfs.

I'm not for nerfing block mitigation at all, just the cost needs to be looked at. If it costs a sorc 10K Magicka for a shield stack that gets vaporized in one combo from stealth, how much does is cost someone else to block nearly all of the damage from the same opener?

And how *** much does it cost to get through those shields for a freaking magDK, magplar or even a magblade? Seriously stop crying.

only reason i didnt list a change for shields is because im not sure what can really be dont about them without it affecting pve too much.

paulsimonps

Asgari wrote: »

Blocking

• Add a disease do blocking that after 3 seconds on consistent block being held that for every additional second your healing done is reduced by 10% so in theory after a total of 13 seconds of blocking you would do 0% healing done but still be able to receive healing. Perma blocking is still an issue in pvp.

Perma blocking is only still a thing in CP PvP, its impossible to perma block in no CP PvP. And if you want to perma block in CP PvP you have to put in literally every single possible form of Block cost reduction. From 100p into shadow ward, to running sword and board, to using 3 cost reducation glyphs, to using Alteration mastery. And at the same time use skills that gives them stamina back.

I sincerly don't think anyone that builds like that is gonna be a threat to you, cause they won't be able to use any stamina abilities, and they need to use their magicak abilites to keep their magicak up. Perma blockers are not a threat. Now someone that does heavy attack in between, yea they could deal damage and block ofte, but not permenantly. I don't think blocking is a problem in PvP at all any more really. You can spec to be tanky now but I really don't see anyone that builds to be that tanky having any offensive capabilities.

Joy_Division

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think there is too great of a prejudice against block on these forums. The vast majority of players run DPS oriented builds. It has been nerfed time and again to the point where it is prohibitively expensive for people who do not abuse block.

As it is right now there are indeed still "perma-blockers," but I do not find these builds offensively threatening because block builds must invest some of their damage potential to do this.

What I would rather do is for ZoS to actually return the class defensive features that were taken away from us such as Cinderstorm, Blinding Flashes, etc. That discourages block without nerfing it.

The issue is the lack of counterplay, not enough skills go through it. Unless you want to stack oblivion damage enchants and knight slayer...

There are two ways to solve this issue that bothers you and others:

1. You can continue the pattern of the past two years and nerf everything and anything you find objectionable or unsatitfying
2. You can offer people alternatives to those play-styles that you find so bothersome.

I personally feel option #2 is the way to go and anyone who advocates #1 acts hypocritically when they complain about ZoS's nerfs.

I'm not for nerfing block mitigation at all, just the cost needs to be looked at. If it costs a sorc 10K Magicka for a shield stack that gets vaporized in one combo from stealth, how much does is cost someone else to block nearly all of the damage from the same opener?

Roll dodge and streak both have a progressively increasing cost every time they're used. What does it cost to scotch-tape down your right mouse button? Educate me here, because I haven't tried a block-heavy armor-sturdy-impregnable build since Morrowind dropped. I've been meaning to, but no time.

Lastly... I'm perfectly okay with a block defense being a direct counter to my high DPS burst build, but should they be able to stand in active siege circles while tanking 8 different DPS players? It's a LITTLE over the top. Come on guys... shouldn't that like, cost too much to pull off?

If I am getting hit from a stealth opener, then I am more than likely not blocking so I get vaporized, you merely lose a shield.

As far as what it costs to scotch-tape down my right mouse button, since you have indicated to me that you only play a sorc and a stam NB, two classes that do not use block, I am going to tell you what you do not want to hear: this is a case of the grass being greener on the other side. Just as you are convinced people who don't play sorcs overvalue that class, you are overvaluing block. There is a price: if I create a build the scotch-tapes my right mouse button, I do no damage. If I do not invest in block, then I run out of stamina very quickly.

And siege damage isn't blockable so these perma-blockers aren't going to be standing inside them for very long.

Asgari wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Blocking is still really really potent for heavy armour builds stacking Sturdy. And with the new CP spreading some CP into Shadow Ward isnt very costly anymore either.

The only thing thats changed is they made block very very VERY punishing for non-heavy builds that don't build for prolonged blocking. Get Soul Assaulted on a medium armour build and then come back and tell me block needs further blanket nerfs.

I addressed both of your concerns in my OP. SA needs to be bashable, and holding block for 3 seconds with what i proposed is basically major defile and it will go away once you let go of block. it wouldnt be a persistent debuff.

I play mag and stam in light medium and heavy on all classes. I understand what is strong and what isnt. But currently with having reduced cost gone you can just take those extra free points and stack into block cost reduction cp along with some sturdy and you are blocking like last patch. nothing really changed. It only changed for light armor users for the most part who block an attack or two too avoid being CC.

I just dont see the point. Block isn't overtuned on light and medium armour builds at all, so why blanket nerf it for everyone?

More appropriate way of going forward would be something like addressing the huge synergy between block and the Consitution heavy armour passive.

It wouldn't be a blanket nerf for everyone. It wouldn't have to be an instant debuff. Couldn't be after X seconds it would slowly start to debuff. Going S&B has no negatives. You have tons of mitigation, great ult, lots of damage, stun, heal debuff.

But the other damage weapons have none of that. S&B is the strongest of the weapon skill lines if you remove destro ult from the equation.

Reduce the need for block and buff the less mobile classes to not be forced into a constant blocking playstyle.

I may not have fully worded the original post but it's balanced if you adjust the less mobile classes.

Going S&B has negatives; namely a loss in damage potential and the loss of half a weapon trait, which is potentially more desirable than an armor trait and some stats.

If it was a fact that S&B was the strongest weapon line, I would see it far more often than I do. Sorcs and NBs pretty much disregard it totally. Mag Temps and DKs use it more so because it is necessary. Most stam builds I run into insist on using bow backbar to go with their 2H or Dual-wield front bar. There is an opportunity cost that most players in the game are not willing to pay.

I would concede your proposal to block would work with your added suggestion: "Reduce the need for block and buff the less mobile classes ," but that has got to come first and should be in the OP.

Solariken

Great suggestions.

Regarding perma-block though, they just need to add a scaling cost window like the one they put on dodgeroll.

Also, not all procs have to be DOTs, but they need to tone down the most egregious, unavoidable procs (Viper, Tremorscale, Skoria...)

Takllin

Can we take a moment to understand why dodgeroll and streak scale in cost?

They're one press, one use skills. Dodgeroll in particular is nearly a second of damage mitigation, snare immunity, repositioning, and a speed boost for most players using it a lot. Disregarding how good that is, because of the way the skills are used there's the potential to have high enough regen to cast them non-stop. This is broken. Everyone who played 1.6 remembers the infinite dodge builds, and a while before that the infinite streak builds. You don't run into the same issue with block because it's already been nerfed to disable stam regen and now it chunks your stamina every .25 seconds as opposed to .5 seconds last patch and 1 second at launch. I can't believe we're in a thread saying block doesn't cost enough when dodge roll got a buff and block effectively costs twice as much as the previous patch.

I can't be the only one who sees the difference between the skills and the fact that you can't have purely reactive defenses in a game with mostly instant cast abilities with no cooldown other than the 1sec global cd? Especially a defense that doesn't even stop you from taking damage, but simply lowers the incoming damage.

bikerangelo

Weapon ults are more of an issue currently, especially S&B, resto and EoTS. The blocking change doesn't make sense, perma block tanks aren't a problem because they sacrificed a lot of damage to build for survivability. As for poisons, proc sets and counterplay? Sure, those need to be adjusted and counterplay has to become more of a priority. There's still counterplay in the game, but the variety is few and far between and is on a steady progression towards extinction. The proc set change was suggested last year during the Hist update and I still think it's worth considering, but cost increase poisons either need to be toned down or removed. It's all "meh" at this point though, because is zose really going to fix any of the important crap?


Also, if you're having issues with perma block tanks, use the cost increase poisons on them to drain their resources.

Zvorgin

The problem with block is that you can't block destro ult. Eye of the storm ruins PvP more than any other skill. Stam players should run proc sets and hope they get their procs before that magicka toon loads up an EotS and kills them.

Solariken

Takllin wrote: »

Can we take a moment to understand why dodgeroll and streak scale in cost?

They're one press, one use skills. Dodgeroll in particular is nearly a second of damage mitigation, snare immunity, repositioning, and a speed boost for most players using it a lot. Disregarding how good that is, because of the way the skills are used there's the potential to have high enough regen to cast them non-stop. This is broken. Everyone who played 1.6 remembers the infinite dodge builds, and a while before that the infinite streak builds. You don't run into the same issue with block because it's already been nerfed to disable stam regen and now it chunks your stamina every .25 seconds as opposed to .5 seconds last patch and 1 second at launch. I can't believe we're in a thread saying block doesn't cost enough when dodge roll got a buff and block effectively costs twice as much as the previous patch.

I can't be the only one who sees the difference between the skills and the fact that you can't have purely reactive defenses in a game with mostly instant cast abilities with no cooldown other than the 1sec global cd? Especially a defense that doesn't even stop you from taking damage, but simply lowers the incoming damage.

Nobody is saying that block should have the same cost scaling as dodgeroll, but it should function similarly. Block should have a lower base cost than current but each subsequent block within the window should cost X% more, ramping up until it is no longer possible to maintain full block.

Developer comments:

This will be a buff if you block reactively and a nerf if you try to blocktard your way through a whole fight.

BraidasNM

Solariken wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Can we take a moment to understand why dodgeroll and streak scale in cost?

They're one press, one use skills. Dodgeroll in particular is nearly a second of damage mitigation, snare immunity, repositioning, and a speed boost for most players using it a lot. Disregarding how good that is, because of the way the skills are used there's the potential to have high enough regen to cast them non-stop. This is broken. Everyone who played 1.6 remembers the infinite dodge builds, and a while before that the infinite streak builds. You don't run into the same issue with block because it's already been nerfed to disable stam regen and now it chunks your stamina every .25 seconds as opposed to .5 seconds last patch and 1 second at launch. I can't believe we're in a thread saying block doesn't cost enough when dodge roll got a buff and block effectively costs twice as much as the previous patch.

I can't be the only one who sees the difference between the skills and the fact that you can't have purely reactive defenses in a game with mostly instant cast abilities with no cooldown other than the 1sec global cd? Especially a defense that doesn't even stop you from taking damage, but simply lowers the incoming damage.

Nobody is saying that block should have the same cost scaling as dodgeroll, but it should function similarly. Block should have a lower base cost than current but each subsequent block within the window should cost X% more, ramping up until it is no longer possible to maintain full block.

Developer comments:

This will be a buff if you block reactively and a nerf if you try to blocktard your way through a whole fight.

that'd be a good change ya

Asgari

BraidasNM wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Can we take a moment to understand why dodgeroll and streak scale in cost?

They're one press, one use skills. Dodgeroll in particular is nearly a second of damage mitigation, snare immunity, repositioning, and a speed boost for most players using it a lot. Disregarding how good that is, because of the way the skills are used there's the potential to have high enough regen to cast them non-stop. This is broken. Everyone who played 1.6 remembers the infinite dodge builds, and a while before that the infinite streak builds. You don't run into the same issue with block because it's already been nerfed to disable stam regen and now it chunks your stamina every .25 seconds as opposed to .5 seconds last patch and 1 second at launch. I can't believe we're in a thread saying block doesn't cost enough when dodge roll got a buff and block effectively costs twice as much as the previous patch.

I can't be the only one who sees the difference between the skills and the fact that you can't have purely reactive defenses in a game with mostly instant cast abilities with no cooldown other than the 1sec global cd? Especially a defense that doesn't even stop you from taking damage, but simply lowers the incoming damage.

Nobody is saying that block should have the same cost scaling as dodgeroll, but it should function similarly. Block should have a lower base cost than current but each subsequent block within the window should cost X% more, ramping up until it is no longer possible to maintain full block.

Developer comments:

This will be a buff if you block reactively and a nerf if you try to blocktard your way through a whole fight.

that'd be a good change ya

yeah i live that, im revising my op

ChandraNalaar

Asgari wrote: »

Healing done wouldn't stop pve tanks from tanking because most fights they can drop block. And they have healers healing them. I agree it would affect pve which I'm against but you can't nerf one aspect and it not affect the other.

You clearly haven't done many trials then if you think that tanks can wander around without blocking and be fine; trial bosses put out a good deal of damage on the tanks, and there are quite a few hits that are one-shots without block up. To suggest that pve should once again follow the same rules as pvp is not the solution. The block cost changes would work in pvp if you made it so that it only counts if a player is hitting you, but you can't nerf block *yet again* for pvp and pve just because you couldn't kill somebody.

IZZEFlameLash

Can we please stop asking for nerfs in block? It was in a decent place last patch and it is already near impossible to permablock when being hit by more than 2 people or a person with channel attacks like jabs. I've seen what people call immortal tanks dying way faster than they did previously. Any form of block nerf at this point will severely gimp builds such as mDK and mTemplars who don't have any form of mobility outside of now very costly mist form. Sure, they can play with staves and such but they will be gimped big times because they cannot move as well as NBs and sorcs of all types. Shield alone doesn't save people but mobility with it does.

Block mitigation is the only thing mDKs and mTemplars have. And their stamina pools are usually small. Easy to run them out of it with concentrated attacks. Because of that, some of those immortal tanks now are just building for something else so they don't have to block as often. Such as health regen.

Asgari

Last i checked this was the alliance war section right? I've tried to be as considerate as possible to pve in what I stated in my op.

No need to come in here with ur pitch forks and torches. Yes I pve, yes I do end game raiding. Battle spirit is a thing and changes can be made though that.

And for those crying about mDK I assume you are new here and don't know who I am.

Takllin

Solariken wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Can we take a moment to understand why dodgeroll and streak scale in cost?

They're one press, one use skills. Dodgeroll in particular is nearly a second of damage mitigation, snare immunity, repositioning, and a speed boost for most players using it a lot. Disregarding how good that is, because of the way the skills are used there's the potential to have high enough regen to cast them non-stop. This is broken. Everyone who played 1.6 remembers the infinite dodge builds, and a while before that the infinite streak builds. You don't run into the same issue with block because it's already been nerfed to disable stam regen and now it chunks your stamina every .25 seconds as opposed to .5 seconds last patch and 1 second at launch. I can't believe we're in a thread saying block doesn't cost enough when dodge roll got a buff and block effectively costs twice as much as the previous patch.

I can't be the only one who sees the difference between the skills and the fact that you can't have purely reactive defenses in a game with mostly instant cast abilities with no cooldown other than the 1sec global cd? Especially a defense that doesn't even stop you from taking damage, but simply lowers the incoming damage.

Nobody is saying that block should have the same cost scaling as dodgeroll, but it should function similarly. Block should have a lower base cost than current but each subsequent block within the window should cost X% more, ramping up until it is no longer possible to maintain full block.

Developer comments:

This will be a buff if you block reactively and a nerf if you try to blocktard your way through a whole fight.

Using a window I would be punished for blocking every dizzying swing sent at me every second. Scaling for holding block would need to be severe enough to punish players who do nothing but block, but that would inadvertently also punish players who are using it just to survive a period of high burst. There's no way to fix this issue any better than it currently is.

Reactive blocking isn't a thing the way people want it to be a thing. Outside of an obvious channeled/casted ability the only thing you could call reactive blocking is using it to mitigate damage when you're in a dangerous situation, and that generally requires you to hold block for a few seconds or more. If I get bursted to low health instantly with no chance of avoiding that, and my only counterplay is to hold block... if I can't recover within 3 seconds because I'm defile debuffed or any number of reasons I should be punished for using my only form of damage mitigation? Because some random decided they'd go into pvp and do no damage, but sit there and watch you waste your time on them? I honestly haven't found a single person in BG's that was unkillable especially when I'm in a duo let alone full BG group. I've played a ton of BG's too. I've watched 4mans on stream waste their time trying to kill 1-2 people and you know what... those people were getting stunned by things other than fear so they damn sure weren't holding block the whole time. Pretty much all of them had guard or shield/resto ult.

DisgracefulMind

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Block and in this game is stupid as it functions.

The key to fixing block is just like all the other TES games, a power attack will Break block and stagger the target setting the target off balance. Off balance targets can not block.

So if you get set off balance for 3 seconds you can't block for 3 seconds. It makes no sense someone who is off balance about to fall down can block

The issue with block has never been resource related it's always been the lack of viable block breakers in the game. Fear is the only viable one now...fossilize, Rune cage, those skills just suck for breaking block, fear due to its buggy nature atleast keeps block down long enough to land 1-2 good shots, the others are broken out of instantly and back to permablocking

I miss the days of Streak being a disorient ( ignored block and didn't give cc immunity) old Streak a perms block DK when I had a Frag proc and fit it in before they could block and knock them on their prissy little rusher....those days are gone though...Templars don't even have a block breaker anymore since they took the disorient away from Luminious Shards

My heart )':

Rohamad_Ali

I'd be happy to test these listed changes as is . Attacking resources like Wrobel decided to do actually did nothing to bring combat inline except for a large gear change overhaul . We still have the same perma blocking issues , crzy amounts of dodge roll available with a added 2 second immunity and shield stacking magic classes . Damage is actually increased this patch along with some additional nasty proc based sets .

These suggestions actual tackle the issues in PVP instead of a band aid approach of crit reductions and limiting sustaine on the character build when its always been resourced through the set builds . Pinching the champion system was good but more was needed in the right areas to bring us closer to balance .

I wish more people were getting inline for trying something like this because it's not going to remove 1 V X , it's going to make it where the skilled players can do it but those that just grab a cookie cutter build on line will seriously need to L2P to pull that off for once .

Shame so few can see that .