5 PVP QOL Adjustments

Asgari

@ZOS_BrianWheeler and @Wrobel I feel like 5 additional changes would make PVP as balanced as ever and make the game enjoyable for everyone as a whole.

Blocking

• Block should have its normal base cost and then each subsequent block within the window of block being held down it should cost X% more, ramping up until it is no longer possible to maintain full block. This X% increase can be set that after 3 blocked attacks(dots excluded.. 'burning') it becomes more draining than the current block cost and would not punish reactive blocking and only punish extended blocking.

Proc Sets

• Make Proc sets do damage over time (Viper, Red mountain, Velidrath, Selenes can be changed to a bleed from the bear swipe, etc). Damage proc sets are just too strong and you are pretty much forced to use them if you want to wear down shields or blocking. But with the above change that wont be so much of an issue now.

Dynamic Ult Gen (Reformed)

• Bring back Dynamic Ult Gen where it is based off of targets hitting you, for each target hitting you, you gain 1 additional ultimate on top of the current ult gen. This does nothing for large scale groups and gives a slight advantage to smaller groups and allows for that ambush style pvp where you hit and move out to wear down the larger groups.

Counter Play

• There are too many skills/ults/proc sets that are being introduced and changed that have almost 0 counters, some have 0. This is just not healthy for pvp as everything should have some form of a counter. Prime example - Soul Assault - Only real counter is blocking its damage if you have no access to a reliable shield. The snare from it almost always gives no real way to LOS it. I understand making it not uninterruptible/purgeable etc. because of its long channel time. However, it should be bashable. It is more so designed as a ranged ult and not something you should be able to just use in someones face. Skills like cliff racer should just have the animation sped up instead of being undodgeable. I can go into more detail for other skills if requested. Just giving 2 examples here.

Cost Increase Poisons

• Remove them. They have no place in the game now. Cost reduction CP is gone. There is no need for such a thing that is easily put on a player by your off hand weapon.

Mazbt

I agree with almost everything said but there's gotta be a way to nerf perma blocking in pvp and not have it seep into pve end game content where perma blocking is still needed in some cases.

Rohamad_Ali

Yes please .

LeifErickson

I totally disagree with the proposed blocking change.

Asgari

Healing done wouldn't stop pve tanks from tanking because most fights they can drop block. And they have healers healing them. I agree it would affect pve which I'm against but you can't nerf one aspect and it not affect the other.

Thelon

If the solution isn't stick a flag in the ground and call it a day, Brian isn't interested

Ilpagliaccio

Lambert,Wheeler, and Wrobel need to stick a flag in their careers and call it a day, tbh.

Ranger209

How about something like blocking fatigue where if you block five attacks within 3 seconds from another player, blocking cost doubles for 3 seconds. This way it only happens when blocking player attacks and it acts kind of like roll dodge fatigue.

soll

I'm kind of agree with everything, but block suggestion.

In no-CP pvp, block eats tons of stam. And as for a healers, this change would just kill small scale to the end. It is already much harder to sustain and survive on templar healer agains bigger groups, comparing to previous patch.

IcyDeadPeople

soll wrote: »

I'm kind of agree with everything, but block suggestion.

In no-CP pvp, block eats tons of stam. And as for a healers, this change would just kill small scale to the end.

Yes, blocking has already been nerfed significantly. Continue down this path and Cyrodiil becomes Elder Dizzying Swing/Dawnbreaker Online for anyone without immovable pot up.

As for proc sets, we have had a number of these since earliest beta of this game. If certain sets are still overperforming after the removal of crit damage, why not reduce the damage or proc chance of these specific sets? There are many other proc sets which are underperforming in comparison.

NBrookus

Everything looks good to me but the blocking change.

There are skills that ignore block, like EoTS and Curse.
There are skills that drop block, like Fear and Fossilize.

On the other hand:
There are skills that can only be blocked, but can't be timed to block because they can be spammed faster than blocking regen ticks, like Cliffracer.
There are skills that can only be blocked by classes with no access to purge or shield stacking, like soul assault and radiant destruction, and have to be blocked for an extended period. This would essentially make all those skills also have major defile attached to them -- and worse, probably stack with major and minor defile.
Then there are free damage proc sets that have no visual that can only be mitigated by block, like Viper and virtually every stam build is wearing them.
And block cost was doubled with Update 14.

As long as all of the above exists, certain class specs are going to permablock because it's the mitigation they have access to.

RinaldoGandolphi

Block and in this game is stupid as it functions.

The key to fixing block is just like all the other TES games, a power attack will Break block and stagger the target setting the target off balance. Off balance targets can not block.

So if you get set off balance for 3 seconds you can't block for 3 seconds. It makes no sense someone who is off balance about to fall down can block

The issue with block has never been resource related it's always been the lack of viable block breakers in the game. Fear is the only viable one now...fossilize, Rune cage, those skills just suck for breaking block, fear due to its buggy nature atleast keeps block down long enough to land 1-2 good shots, the others are broken out of instantly and back to permablocking

I miss the days of Streak being a disorient ( ignored block and didn't give cc immunity) old Streak a perms block DK when I had a Frag proc and fit it in before they could block and knock them on their prissy little rusher....those days are gone though...Templars don't even have a block breaker anymore since they took the disorient away from Luminious Shards

DemonDruaga

Ranger209 wrote: »

How about something like blocking fatigue where if you block five attacks within 3 seconds from another player, blocking cost doubles for 3 seconds. This way it only happens when blocking player attacks and it acts kind of like roll dodge fatigue.

Thats overkill for everyone, one is getting hit with way more than 5 attacks in 3 seconds.
Block fatigue would be up for everybody the whole fight. And with the block changes blocking for a sec already drains the stam bar instantly for everybody not stacking blockreduce/ stamina.
I mean only getting hit 5 times in 3 secs sounds like utopia

TheBonesXXX

DoT damage could always effect block independently from direct damage.

II am afraid without proc sets that Dual Wielders and heavy DoT builds would be less viable, I like to grind and wear my opponent down and not a fan of the burst dump. But I always thought they were cheesy, the other problem is a lot of the gearsets are kind of pointless.

More elaboration please, I play a very offensive style and am not particularly interested in waiting for someone to beat on me to generate all of my ulti.

I do not know, I kind of like Cliff Racer where it stands, it really doesn't hit that hard and it kills duds while good players will be using their line of sight to get the hell out of the way anyway.

I think they should be reworked into an actual Poison, doing damage over time to the resource pool like the health poisons.

Kas

i do not agree with the dynamic ult gain. i think builds that 1vX or small-group vs larger by standing there taking the hits and far less fun / well played than those that achieve the same thing through kiting, movement and avoiding to get hit.
at least you "block disease" suggestion makes this less of a problem. still, I don't think I'd promote malubeth self-heal-spam as the go-to way to when outnumbered

Valencer

Blocking is still really really potent for heavy armour builds stacking Sturdy. And with the new CP spreading some CP into Shadow Ward isnt very costly anymore either.

The only thing thats changed is they made block very very VERY punishing for non-heavy builds that don't build for prolonged blocking. Get Soul Assaulted on a medium armour build and then come back and tell me block needs further blanket nerfs.

Asgari

Valencer wrote: »

Blocking is still really really potent for heavy armour builds stacking Sturdy. And with the new CP spreading some CP into Shadow Ward isnt very costly anymore either.

The only thing thats changed is they made block very very VERY punishing for non-heavy builds that don't build for prolonged blocking. Get Soul Assaulted on a medium armour build and then come back and tell me block needs further blanket nerfs.

I addressed both of your concerns in my OP. SA needs to be bashable, and holding block for 3 seconds with what i proposed is basically major defile and it will go away once you let go of block. it wouldnt be a persistent debuff.

I play mag and stam in light medium and heavy on all classes. I understand what is strong and what isnt. But currently with having reduced cost gone you can just take those extra free points and stack into block cost reduction cp along with some sturdy and you are blocking like last patch. nothing really changed. It only changed for light armor users for the most part who block an attack or two too avoid being CC.

Ishammael

Agree with everything except the block change.

While perma blocking is still a thing, its more a function of available item sets than anything else (e.g. Impreg). In noCP it's not really an issue since you can't grab >20% from CP.

I would like to suggest a #6 for your list:

6) Continuous and detailed review of PvP skill balance in mind with open discussion in the community and test time on the PTS.

Asgari

Ishammael wrote: »

Agree with everything except the block change.

While perma blocking is still a thing, its more a function of available item sets than anything else (e.g. Impreg). In noCP it's not really an issue since you can't grab >20% from CP.

I would like to suggest a #6 for your list:

6) Continuous and detailed review of PvP skill balance in mind with open discussion in the community and test time on the PTS.

I agree impreg is a big factor in that. but at the same time so is how cheap s&b ult is but then adjusting that you hurt pve too much. Changing block would have to be done the same time as proc sets though because if you kept one the same then things would be too outa wack.

FENGRUSH

Good post Asgari - block changes can be applied and bundled under the battle spirit change, as a lot of stuff probably should.

Takllin

Block is already nerfed to *** this patch. Every change to balance some extreme build that uses it more than normal just hurts the skill in general for everyone else. The only times I block are if I'm in a situation where I can die otherwise (generally low health or being focused hard), or if I want to block a CC. I don't think block is any more ridiculous in it's current state than having to pray to RNG any time you fight a stam player. Personally I don't think we should be nerfing the playstyle that actually has to account for every attack coming at them over the one that gets such an advantage in every fight due to RNG. It's actually much harder trying to fight a stamblade that can burst you instantly at any time while having immunity to snares/dodging most of your attacks over some magicka DK/templar who has no other way of mitigating damage.

As far as blocking reactively to bursts and such... bursts come in waves of 3-4 seconds or less so being defiled after 3 seconds really doesn't make any *** sense. You can block that dizzy swing too, but there's another one charging up immediately. That's how the game works.

The actual issue with the game atm though is resto ult and shield ult. They're far too effective for their cost because they have the side effect of providing resource sustain. You can use them close to on cooldown if you want, and you can pretty much forget about your defense during them. This provides magicka and a lot of stamina sustain. Not to mention they both in certain ways boost your damage. IMO they both should be 130-150 cost.

Joy_Division

I think there is too great of a prejudice against block on these forums. The vast majority of players run DPS oriented builds. It has been nerfed time and again to the point where it is prohibitively expensive for people who do not abuse block.

As it is right now there are indeed still "perma-blockers," but I do not find these builds offensively threatening because block builds must invest some of their damage potential to do this.

What I would rather do is for ZoS to actually return the class defensive features that were taken away from us such as Cinderstorm, Blinding Flashes, etc. That discourages block without nerfing it.

Nutshotz

Here is an idea stop asking for things or asking for nerfs. The more you ask for things or nerfszos does the opposite and messes things up 10x as bad as before. It's easy to counter the proc sets. I have no issue using them or having them used on me.

Asgari

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

Here is an idea stop asking for things or asking for nerfs. The more you ask for things or nerfszos does the opposite and messes things up 10x as bad as before. It's easy to counter the proc sets. I have no issue using them or having them used on me.

Procs dont affect a small portion of the population. less than 1% probably. im looking at it from a new player perspective where it ruins their experience and makes them want to quit.

Ishammael

Asgari wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Agree with everything except the block change.

While perma blocking is still a thing, its more a function of available item sets than anything else (e.g. Impreg). In noCP it's not really an issue since you can't grab >20% from CP.

I would like to suggest a #6 for your list:

6) Continuous and detailed review of PvP skill balance in mind with open discussion in the community and test time on the PTS.

I agree impreg is a big factor in that. but at the same time so is how cheap s&b ult is but then adjusting that you hurt pve too much. Changing block would have to be done the same time as proc sets though because if you kept one the same then things would be too outa wack.

Agreed.

Minalan

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think there is too great of a prejudice against block on these forums. The vast majority of players run DPS oriented builds. It has been nerfed time and again to the point where it is prohibitively expensive for people who do not abuse block.

As it is right now there are indeed still "perma-blockers," but I do not find these builds offensively threatening because block builds must invest some of their damage potential to do this.

What I would rather do is for ZoS to actually return the class defensive features that were taken away from us such as Cinderstorm, Blinding Flashes, etc. That discourages block without nerfing it.

The issue is the lack of counterplay, not enough skills go through it. Unless you want to stack oblivion damage enchants and knight slayer...

Ishammael

Takllin wrote: »

It's actually much harder trying to fight a stamblade that can burst you instantly at any time while having immunity to snares/dodging most of your attacks over some magicka DK/templar who has no other way of mitigating damage.

This is a good point. We are now seeing a patch where cloak is working by and large. The strength of the skill combined with proc sets is tremendous. It puts DKs and Templars with no mobility at a huge disadvantage in open world play.

Takllin wrote: »

The actual issue with the game atm though is resto ult and shield ult. They're far too effective for their cost because they have the side effect of providing resource sustain. You can use them close to on cooldown if you want, and you can pretty much forget about your defense during them. This provides magicka and a lot of stamina sustain. Not to mention they both in certain ways boost your damage. IMO they both should be 130-150 cost.

This is a good point, too. Which is why I suggested an overall balance pass. Resto and Shield Ult are overperforming. I think DBoS is still a bit too strong, but others will disagree.

IcyDeadPeople

Valencer wrote: »

Blocking is still really really potent for heavy armour builds stacking Sturdy. And with the new CP spreading some CP into Shadow Ward isnt very costly anymore either.

The only thing thats changed is they made block very very VERY punishing for non-heavy builds that don't build for prolonged blocking. Get Soul Assaulted on a medium armour build and then come back and tell me block needs further blanket nerfs.

The problem you describe is not blocking, but heavy armor still being a bit too strong compared to light and medium. Very good sustain when you are getting whaled on, high resistances and damage is still close to light/medium. Slight buff to light and medium passives would bring them up to the level of heavy and make this a more interesting choice.

No problem if someone wants to build extreme tank RP character who rarely dies, but there should be a bit more tradeoff compared to light/medium in terms of damage output.

Joy_Division

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think there is too great of a prejudice against block on these forums. The vast majority of players run DPS oriented builds. It has been nerfed time and again to the point where it is prohibitively expensive for people who do not abuse block.

As it is right now there are indeed still "perma-blockers," but I do not find these builds offensively threatening because block builds must invest some of their damage potential to do this.

What I would rather do is for ZoS to actually return the class defensive features that were taken away from us such as Cinderstorm, Blinding Flashes, etc. That discourages block without nerfing it.

The issue is the lack of counterplay, not enough skills go through it. Unless you want to stack oblivion damage enchants and knight slayer...

There are two ways to solve this issue that bothers you and others:

1. You can continue the pattern of the past two years and nerf everything and anything you find objectionable or unsatitfying
2. You can offer people alternatives to those play-styles that you find so bothersome.

I personally feel option #2 is the way to go and anyone who advocates #1 acts hypocritically when they complain about ZoS's nerfs.

stealthyevil

Asgari wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler and @Wrobel

Proc Sets

• Make Proc sets do damage over time (Viper, Red mountain, Velidrath, Selenes can be changed to a bleed from the bear swipe, etc). Damage proc sets are just too strong and you are pretty much forced to use them if you want to wear down shields or blocking. But with the above change that wont be so much of an issue now.

I agree with your sentiments as a whole. On the particular issue of proc sets, it starts to become a problem when there are multiple sets stacked along with damage health enchants/poisons. You can crank out roughly 10k instant damage (depending on CP) with just doing a heavy attack, example (Viper, Veli, Damage Health Enchant). IMO, I think if these sets were damage over time, it would make templars with purify or any class that has access to an easy purge extremely OP. I think it would be more efficient to just make proc sets share an internal cooldown, that way you can still get, for example, Viper + Damage health Enchant (roughly 5-6k damage depending on CP) but once your viper procs, your velidreth will be on cooldown for a given duration. This would allow them to still be viable, instead of being easily purged off.

LeifErickson

How are magplars and magdks supposed to mitigate damage without blocking? They can't roll dodge effectively like medium armor builds can, they have no where near enough hots to rely on those, they can't use shields anywhere near as effective as sorcs can. (And I think people don't realize that the reason these shields are so good on sorcs is because they also have mobility too. A shield can't hold up against multiple attackers so they use mobility to even the odds.) Burst heals (lol they don't even heal for that much though) are all these two specs have. You cannot be effective with just burst heals alone because burst heals don't give you a chance to go on the offensive.

So what is so wrong with the way block is right now? If you build for blocking, then you will have less damage. Are you guys saying that you are losing to block tanks 1v1? The only reason I can think of that would make you want to nerf block MORE is that you are xv1ing these block builds. All the proposed change will do is making blocking better in zergs and worse in solo play. I didn't realize that this is what the community wanted, to nerf even more the people who are outnumbered in a fight.

Asgari wrote: »

Blocking

• Add a disease [t]o blocking that after 3 seconds on consistent block being held that for every additional second your healing done is reduced by 10% so in theory after 10 seconds of blocking you would do 0% healing done but still be able to receive healing. Perma blocking is still an issue in pvp.

This change solves nothing to nerf zergs because zerg blockers can get heals from somewhere else. However, this change nerfs solo players who use block because they can't outsource their heals. How is this what people want? I mean, unless people think magplars and magdks are top tier for solo play (and if you think that then you are wrong), I can't see why block needs to be nerfed more.

So the only logical reason for nerfing block would be that it is performing too well in an xvx fight. I, however, have yet to see this be true. Either it's a l2p issue on the people who think block is too strong or I have been blessed with not witnessing the strength of these perma block builds.

And to the point of that block doesn't have many counters, I disagree. For one, block has been made necessary by everyone because of soul assault among other things, but block has plenty of counters. I'm just going to list off the things that kill me the most when I am playing on a "block" build: fear, curse, implosion, oblivion enchant (this especially hurts in mist form), fear, dots and especially bleeds and especially especially ground dots and follow the caster dots (I typically see about 3 different poison injections for 7k+ on my recaps not to mention all the other dots on me), fear, defiles, power of the light and purifying light, roots kinda suck, did I mention fear?

But like I said, I would like to know more about why and when these perma blockers are so over the top. The only thing I can think of is heal bots. However, heal bots are broken for a completely different reason (and I don't even think they perma block either). Come to think of it, basically nothing perma blocks except full block tanks which are completely worthless.

Blanket nerfing things like block doesn't ever solve the problem, it only makes the non problem builds trash (such as the proc set change). If block continues to get nerfed, then the average mdk and magplar that do nothing wrong will get hit the hardest.

But yes, I think shield ult and resto ult are overpowered. Those should definitely be adjusted.